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[besada]

After reading the thread Cyan posted I think I kinda understand it a little better...however if I switch the sexes around I think it's weird... I wouldnt want a woman coming into the mens toilet.. Even when younger...the thought makes me quite uncomfortable...I dont really know why... It just seems to be a biological thing

A little thought experiment for you: How would you have felt as a child if you had been forced to use the women's rest room even though you were a boy? Because that's what she has to go through if you force her to use the bathroom that matches her biology. Worse yet, you're telling her she isn't who she thinks she is, that her view of herself is wrong. Imagine if all your peers and authority figures treated you like a girl, even though you knew you were a boy.

How unhappy would that make you?

 

[Rubbish King]

She's a girl. So essentially you'd have problems with her in your bathroom. You're arguing in her favor without even realizing.

No I'm not, Im saying if an actual girl (Biologically) came into the mens bathroom, id be made uncomfortable

If i was standing at the urinal and a bloke who dressed like a girl came and stood next to me to have a piss at the other urinal, I wouldnt really have a choice about it..


But where do you draw the line? What about changing rooms? I hate getting changed in front of men, let alone women as well

This seems really strange, I dont even know how to process this information as its so alien

A little thought experiment for you: How would you have felt as a child if you had been forced to use the women's rest room even though you were a boy? Because that's what she has to go through if you force her to use the bathroom that matches her biology. Worse yet, you're telling her she isn't who she thinks she is, that her view of herself is wrong. Imagine if all your peers and authority figures treated you like a girl, even though you knew you were a boy.

How unhappy would that make you?

I'd be embarrassed because i dont wanna poop in the stall next to a woman and because I'd have to sit to pee

I really struggle to put myself in anothers shoes in this issue.

 

[Devolution]

No I'm not, Im saying if an actual girl (Biologically) came into the mens bathroom, id be made uncomfortable

If i was standing at the urinal and a bloke who dressed like a girl came and stood next to me to have a piss at the other urinal, I wouldnt really have a choice about it..


But where do you draw the line? What about changing rooms? I hate getting changed in front of men, let alone women as well

This seems really strange, I dont even know how to process this information as its so alien

You don't know what she has below her skirt. She appears as a girl, she is a girl. She would disrupt the boys bathroom. It's like your ignoring the pictures right in the OP.

If a "bloke" dressed as a girl came in she'd suffer all kinds of harassment, transpeople can attest to this, unless you just want to ignore their experiences.

 

[SillyEskimo]

A little thought experiment for you: How would you have felt as a child if you had been forced to use the women's rest room even though you were a boy? Because that's what she has to go through if you force her to use the bathroom that matches her biology. Worse yet, you're telling her she isn't who she thinks she is, that her view of herself is wrong. Imagine if all your peers and authority figures treated you like a girl, even though you knew you were a boy.

How unhappy would that make you?

No one is telling the child to use the boy's restroom. The child can use the neutral nurse's bathroom. Many people seem like they're missing this important piece of information.

 

[BeesEight]

She's dressing as a female. I think barring her from the girl's bathroom is going to be far more confusing for the children (her and her colleagues) than just letting her use the stalls. On top of which, she was using them before and there appears to be zero complaints to the matter.

I don't see the issue here. Let her use her bathroom.

No one is telling the child to use the boy's restroom. The child can use the neutral nurse's bathroom. Many people seem like they're missing this important piece of information.

So now all the kids are going to be asking why she has to use the faculty bathrooms? This is drawing unneeded attention to something that was never a problem.

 

[SillyEskimo]

She's dressing as a female. I think barring her from the girl's bathroom is going to be far more confusing for the children (her and her colleagues) than just letting her use the stalls. On top of which, she was using them before and there appears to be zero complaints to the matter.

I don't see the issue here. Let her use her bathroom.

Or just use the neutral one.

 

[Trojita]

You guys might not understand how awkward it is to use a service that is out of the norm with your peer group.

"I'm going to the bathroom"

"I'll go with you"

"Err.... I have to use a different one"

 

[BeesEight]

Or just use the neutral one.

The neutral one is a faculty bathroom.

 

[Valhelm]

You guys might not understand how awkward it is to use a service that is out of the norm with your peer group.

"I'm going to the bathroom"

"I'll go with you"

"Err.... I have to use a different one"

The fact that they are socially alienating her is probably the worst of it. The teachers should just treat her like a cisgirl, as this could prevent bullying down the line and make Coy and her family feel a lot better.

Encouraging her to use a "gender neutral bathroom" is kind of slap in the face to the Mathis family. The school is basically telling Coy that she's neither a boy or a girl.

 

[winjet81]

Or just use the neutral one.

Or make all the bathrooms neutral.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

No one is telling the child to use the boy's restroom. The child can use the neutral nurse's bathroom. Many people seem like they're missing this important piece of information.

Haha, you say it like that's not a problem in itself

"Hey everyone, look at this faggot going into the nurse's bathroom!"
That's how cruel kids are nowadays.

 

[Trojita]

I also didn't know what Cis meant before this topic. But I guess it makes since with Latin.

 

[RDreamer]

You're confusing "wanting to know" and "wanting to feel like" with "wanting to have." Have you ever really, really wanted to have a female body so much that you hate your own? Have you ever had the thought that it would just feel right to be a girl?

Not so much on the former, but I think I have before on the latter.

Not sure where you're going with this though, since I do understand and accept that a disconnect can exist, and I understand the concept of gender dysphoria.

 

[besada]

No one is telling the child to use the boy's restroom. The child can use the neutral nurse's bathroom. Many people seem like they're missing this important piece of information.

Actually, plenty of people in this thread have suggested she use the boy's restroom, including the one I was responding to.

 

[Eighty Deuce]

The neutral one is a faculty bathroom.

I don't see a problem. It's not the schools responsibility to make gender policy. They're trying their best to avoid a large-scale scandal. at least they are making an effort to assist the kid

 

[Rubbish King]

Encouraging her to use a "gender neutral bathroom" is kind of slap in the face to the Mathis family. The school is basically telling Coy that she's neither a boy or a girl.

Well i wouldnt say that, i'd say they were just trying to avoiding offending anyone maybe. There are many opinions on the matter and you cant please everyone, other parents could complain about it i guess

My first thought when i saw this thread was


huh...maybe there shouldn't be segregated toilets anymore..could take away this problem...then i realised i would never take a shit again

We are talking about gender. Not who you want to fuck.

?
No need to be rude

 

[Suairyu]

Well i wouldnt say that, i'd say they were just trying to avoiding offending anyone maybe. There are many opinions on the matter and you cant please everyone, other parents could complain about it i guess

In trying to do that, they have offended the law, basic human decency, and the wishes of a girl who -despite being in a very unorthodox position- has up until moment been able to live a normal, joyful life without impediment because of who she is.

Would you feel uncomfortable with this hombre being in the same toilet as you?

No, because he's a man, despite how he was born. You wouldn't realise.

It's the same thing with this girl. None of the kids would ever know.

And even if you did realise, why should your discomfort get in the way of this person trying to get by as they feel they should? Your awkwardness should not stop a girl or guy from using the bathroom assigned to their gender.

Then there's the point that a school should be educating people to get over preconceived notions they may have. Parent's discomfort should not a deciding factor here.

 

[The Librarian]

Not so much on the former, but I think I have before on the latter.

Everyday for years on end?

Not sure where you're going with this though, since I do understand and accept that a disconnect can exist, and I understand the concept of gender dysphoria.

You expressed confusion at how someone would want to be the gender they weren't born as. I'm trying to make you understand, from what I understand of it.

 

[Vagabundo]

Well i wouldnt say that, i'd say they were just trying to avoiding offending anyone maybe. There are many opinions on the matter and you cant please everyone, other parents could complain about it i guess

At some point an establishment dedicated to education should make the educated point and stick to their guns on the matter. "She's a girl, she uses the girls' bathroom".

 

[Xzeon]

so, shes transgender, has purple hair, and is named Coy.

yeah just fucking homeschool her, she will be eaten alive in the American public school system.

kids are assholes, she has 12 years of bullying ahead of her.

what are they afraid of really. like someone else said, the girls bathroom only has stalls, no one would even see whats going on or know. seems like an over reaction, but thats the way of American public schools.

 

[sleepykyo]

Well... yeah. Unnatural hair color is against every public school dress code that I'm familiar with.

I don't remember anyone ever enforcing it in high school (it was a magnet school though). The wicca crowd had their blue and purple hair just fine.

 

[perfectchaos007]

children discover themselves physically as toddlers, you don't think they'd know something is off?

Then couldn't this open the door for self-misdiagnosis? We're talking about toddlers who aren't sexually attracted to anyone at this point in their lives. And characteristically, how different are boys and girls at this age? Until I was almost 8 years old everyone was androgynous to me and I assumed girls had penises as well. Granted, as a toddler, I was aware that some girls at daycare enjoyed playing with dolls while boys enjoyed GI Joes/hotwheels for the most part, but then there were also girls who enjoyed playing with hotwheels. According to my mom I always requested the pink diapers over the blue ones when at the supermarket. Fortunately my mom thought nothing of it, but maybe some parents would see that as a sign of their kid being the wrong gender.

My personal belief is that gender reassignment is too complex of a decision to make until the party has the capacity to make such a decision which would be near the age of consent.

 

[notworksafe]

Haha, you say it like that's not a problem in itself

"Hey everyone, look at this faggot going into the nurse's bathroom!"
That's how cruel kids are nowadays.

Nowadays? Kids have always been assholes

 

[SillyEskimo]

So now all the kids are going to be asking why she has to use the faculty bathrooms? This is drawing unneeded attention to something that was never a problem.

How stupid do you think children are? They are already aware, they probably just don't care.

 

[Suairyu]

so, shes transgender, has purple hair, and is named Coy.

yeah just fucking homeschool her, she will be eaten alive in the American public school system.

kids are assholes, she has 12 years of bullying ahead of her.

what are they afraid of really. like someone else said, the girls bathroom only has stalls, no one would even see whats going on or know. seems like an over reaction, but thats the way of American public schools.

Or work to change public schools and the students in them rather than hiding transgendered children away like Quasimodo in the bell tower?

 

[Platy]

Or just use the neutral one.

Here is a comic from the same artist also about transgender people using the bathroom ... but this one I don't think it needs any translation =P

 

[Devolution]

Then couldn't this open the door for self-misdiagnosis? We're talking about toddlers who aren't sexually attracted to anyone at this point in their lives. And characteristically, how different are boys and girls at this age? Until I was almost 8 years old everyone was androgynous to me and I assumed girls had penises as well. Granted, as a toddler, I was aware that some girls at daycare enjoyed playing with dolls while boys enjoyed GI Joes/hotwheels for the most part, but then there were also girls who enjoyed playing with hotwheels. According to my mom I always requested the pink diapers over the blue ones when at the supermarket. Fortunately my mom thought nothing of it, but maybe some parents would see that as a sign of their kid being the wrong gender.

My personal belief is that gender reassignment is too complex of a decision to make until the party has the capacity to make such a decision which would be near the age of consent.

No, it can't because the children go see experts and psychologists on the matter. Christ. How many fucking times must I say this.

 

[BeesEight]

I don't see a problem. It's not the schools responsibility to make gender policy. They're trying their best to avoid a large-scale scandal. at least they are making an effort to assist the kid

The problem would be if the school said to a boy that he was only allowed to use the girl's bathroom, the faculty bathroom or the nurses bathroom.

All the other kids are going to figure out there's something going on here and the chances for ridicule will rise pretty dramatically I'd imagine. Also, if it's anything like my schools, kids weren't really allowed to use the faculty washrooms thus highlighting this one student's special case even further.

As I said, there were zero issues with her using it for half a year. The public statement even says they're only enforcing this decision because of some hypothesized future situation that may make this uncomfortable for other students that hasn't even occurred.

And this is a student that is showing up to school in a dress. I'm pretty certain as far as all the other kids are concerned she's as she as she can be.

 

[Xzeon]

Or work to change public schools and the students in them rather than hiding transgendered children away like Quasimodo in the bell tower?

i have no faith in public schools, or the students that inhabit them.

but yes i agree, a lot of things need to change.

but it will be a massive struggle cuz the entire system is fucked, and i dont see it changing any time soon.

this girl just has a bunch of attributes that will make her a bully magnet, and i feel sick thinking about what she will probably have to endure.

 

[SillyEskimo]

The neutral one is a faculty bathroom.

So?

 

[SquiddyCracker]

Nowadays? Kids have always been assholes

Yep, yep, that is true.

 

[Eighty Deuce]

The problem would be if the school said to a boy that he was only allowed to use the girl's bathroom, the faculty bathroom or the nurses bathroom.

All the other kids are going to figure out there's something going on here and the chances for ridicule will rise pretty dramatically I'd imagine. Also, if it's anything like my schools, kids weren't really allowed to use the faculty washrooms thus highlighting this one student's special case even further.

As I said, there were zero issues with her using it for half a year. The public statement even says they're only enforcing this decision because of some hypothesized future situation that may make this uncomfortable for other students that hasn't even occurred.

And this is a student that is showing up to school in a dress. I'm pretty certain as far as all the other kids are concerned she's as she as she can be.

Well she won't be able to hide it forever. Only a matter of time before discussion of periods and other female bodily functions will arise. At which point she will be the center of negative attention. So take it as you will but the outcome of this will not be good. Kids are cruel and everyone is aware of what the future holds.

 

[Suairyu]

i have no faith in public schools, or the students that inhabit them.

but yes i agree, a lot of things need to change.

but it will be a massive struggle cuz the entire system is fucked, and i dont see it changing any time soon.

this girl just has a bunch of attributes that will make her a bully magnet, and i feel sick thinking about what she will probably have to endure.

The problem: change will only happen by exposure to the 'issue'. By homeschooling the children to avoid ridicule, you are avoiding exposing the school system to the 'issue' and thus nothing changes.

Creating change requires courage and moral conviction. Hiding won't bring change.

 

[Mully]

I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to transgendered people discussions. Is it too early for this child to select a gender? I'm just trying to learn.

 

[bangai-o]

http://www.healthychildren.org/Engl...dentity-and-Gender-Confusion-In-Children.aspx

i looked around, but I cant seem to find the research that backs up the content. No articles on databases or anything. Amazon states it only cites two sources.

This book cites 2 books:

Caring for Your Baby and Young Child, Revised Edition: Birth to Age 5 (Shelov, Caring for your Baby and Young Child, Birth to Age 5) by American Academy Of Pediatrics in Front Matter (1), and Front Matter (2)
Cystic Fibrosis (Your Personal Health Series) on page 574

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0553379925/?tag=neogaf0e-20

basically a major of early childhood development could not even use this as a citation with no research to back any of those milestones you mentioned.

i am not trying to say the content is incorrect, but you are stating that the posts in this thread that are linking this to the parents are just ignorant and how some of us are suddenly experts. yet even your web page states how much a child derives from its environment, which means the parents. i just don't understand why linking the parents to this child's development is not a base to go by, and how that makes some neogaf members ignorant

I don't see the issue here. Let her use her bathroom.

the issue will basically be when other parents find out "why is a boy going to girls bathrooms et cetera." schools get sued for everything remember.

 

[Devolution]

I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to transgendered people discussions. Is it too early for this child to select a gender? I'm just trying to learn.

No. It would be harder to do this once puberty has already set in. Basically children are more aware of gender than the self-proclaimed experts who rush into this thread always doubt. They are treated by all kinds of child psychologists and gender therapy. The best course of action is planned out. In this case she will probably go on hormone blockers to delay puberty, figure out if this is indeed what she wants and then take the proper hormones to being the transitioning process or let puberty take its course.

 

[Platy]

I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to transgendered people discussions. Is it too early for this child to select a gender? I'm just trying to learn.

Lets try a diferent aproach .... WHEN do you think it is not too early ?

 

[Suairyu]

I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to transgendered people discussions. Is it too early for this child to select a gender? I'm just trying to learn.

She didn't 'select' anything.

She has been assessed by expert psychologists.

No permanent physical or chemical changes have happened - she is merely in a social transition, that is to say living as a girl while still having male biology. The physical decision will come later.

As physical decisions have, by nature, a deadline before they start to become difficult, allowing a child to experience the social transition as early as possible so they have time to fully feel out living as who they believe they are is of utmost importance.

 

[Devolution]

i looked around, but I cant seem to find the research that backs up the content. No articles on databases or anything. Amazon states it only cites two sources.


http://www.amazon.com/dp/0553379925/?tag=neogaf0e-20

basically a major of early childhood development could not even use this as a citation with no research to back any of those milestones you mentioned.

i am not trying to say the content is incorrect, but you are stating that the posts in this thread that are linking this to the parents are just ignorant and how some of us are suddenly experts. yet even your web page states how much a child derives from its environment, which means the parents. i just don't understand why linking the parents to this child's development is not a base to go by, and how that makes some neogaf members ignorant

http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/actearly/milestones/milestones-5yr.html

Is aware of gender.


http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/actearly/milestones/milestones-3yr.html

Dresses and undresses self

 

[Xzeon]

The problem: change will only happen by exposure to the 'issue'. By homeschooling the children to avoid ridicule, you are avoiding exposing the school system to the 'issue' and thus nothing changes.

Creating change requires courage and moral conviction. Hiding won't bring change.

she better develop a thick skin and learn to defend herself then.

i just get really irritated when parents name their kids like 'Paper' or 'Rayne Bow' or some crazy thing, it just paints a huge target on their backs. schools already fucking hard enough with out having a weird name.

 

[CrudeDiatribe]

how that makes some neogaf members ignorant

What makes some members look ignorant is clearly not reading the thread and the linked articles/videos. This girl has had her birth certificate and ID amended to reflect her 'new' gender. That requires professionals; this isn't her parents being all frou-frou.

 

[Evlar]

Restrooms are provided for biological function, and I think most people who spend a moment thinking on the matter would agree that excreting organs are the factor which should determine which room you go in. One has urinals, the other tampon dispensers.

I don't have a problem with public restrooms separated by biological function, nor do I think the school is in the wrong here.

 

[paully]

I can't really comment too much on this issue. It's too difficult for me--and many others, I'm sure--to wrap my mind around a six year old being transgendered. It's definitely ignorance on my part, but it can be very difficult to comprehend something like this and that's probably why it's such a contentious topic.

I do think it's fucked up for the school to do this to a student, though. Someone who identifies as a girl--and completely looks the part--would look out of place in a boys restroom. I mean, it's called a Women's restroom not a Vagina Restroom.

 

[RDreamer]

You expressed confusion at how someone would want to be the gender they weren't born as. I'm trying to make you understand, from what I understand of it.

I didn't, actually. Or at least that wasn't my intention. I expressed confusion over the depiction on a picture, and over gender identity if separated completely from physicality. I have posited basically that gender identity could be defined as level of comfort in one's given (or current) body. Not sure many people really responded to that, though.

So, I understand the disconnect some have and the need to fix it, it's just identifying what 'man' or 'woman' means past physical characteristics like a penis or vagina.

Perhaps I'm just getting too far into philosophy and semantics? I dunno.

 

[Devolution]

What makes some members look ignorant is clearly not reading the thread and the linked articles/videos. This girl has had her birth certificate and ID amended to reflect her 'new' gender. That requires professionals; this isn't her parents being all frou-frou.

The fact that this needs to be stated ad nauseam is really annoying.

 

[besada]

I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to transgendered people discussions. Is it too early for this child to select a gender? I'm just trying to learn.

Then you might read the thread, as this question has been answered multiple times on every page.

 

[Devolution]

I didn't, actually. Or at least that wasn't my intention. I expressed confusion over the depiction on a picture, and over gender identity if separated completely from physicality. I have posited basically that gender identity could be defined as level of comfort in one's given (or current) body. Not sure many people really responded to that, though.

So, I understand the disconnect some have and the need to fix it, it's just identifying what 'man' or 'woman' means past physical characteristics like a penis or vagina.

Perhaps I'm just getting too far into philosophy and semantics? I dunno.

Some people never transition physically and for others it can help with their sense of self. It's not an all or nothing ordeal.

 

[Cyan]

What makes some members look ignorant is clearly not reading the thread and the linked articles/videos. This girl has had her birth certificate and ID amended to reflect her 'new' gender. That requires professionals; this isn't her parents being all frou-frou.

Some good information here, as well: http://www.katiecouric.com/on-the-s...d-in-the-wrong-body-growing-up-transgender-2/

 

[Trojita]

I'VE SOLVED THE PURPLE HAIR DEBATE.

This cannot be used as an excuse to say the parents are "Letting the kid do whatever she wants".

It was for a family photo

Some of her siblings also chose to dye their hair.

She usually looks like this

 

[besada]

That's a big ole adorable family.