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Digital Foundry: Unreal Engine 4 PS4 vs. PC

Some of the differences between the demos, like the texture difference, doesn't even make sense. There's no reason for it to look that bad with 8GB.

PS4 is suppose to be PC-esque, now there can be 'upward optimising' just from working with a single set of hardware obviously. However; it should be generally possible to port a general version - there are not the same set of issues from going PC to say PS3, we know this. So theres no need to optimise downward to the same degree, e.g. get it working for this alien architecture.

A problem for the GPU would be creating these textures at 1080p along with the visual effects. No matter the RAM. I suspect but am not an expert on these matters.

RAM is just memory that the GPU and CPU can access (in the PS4's case very very quickly) but its not doing any work.
 

Sid

Member
Now this is interesting:

Update: To clarify, it's our understanding that there won't be a real-time GI/Lightmass divide between PC and console in final UE4 games - we're looking at the pre-computed solution across all platforms.
Is this confirmed anywhere?
 

benny_a

extra source of jiggaflops
Sony deveolpers obviously know their stuff better than anyone else, but when I think about it that 8 GB GDDR5 setup does look very weird. I really can't imagine how a game that utilize 7-7.5 GB of VRAM at 1080p is going to looks like, even Rage with 16K textures appearntly just use a little over 2GB of VRAM. Is it even possible for a 1.80 Tflops GPU to push over 7GB+ Vram without starting to fall apart? It will be very interested to see how can take advantage of the PS4 8GB GDDR5 ram.
It's unified memory, so you need to subtract whatever is used for the actual game code which on PS3 had to be around a 40/50 split between available main memory and video memory.

But yeah the 8GB was a surprise to many because it was thought to be overkill for the target.
 

Ce-Lin

Member
That's a ridiculous assumption.

why? it's not the first time that PC software crashes or shows buggy performance on some hardware while running flawlessly on something else, actually is rather common. Here we go ignoring the basics of PC gaming. That demo was carefully made to start creating hype around UE4, it's only logical that they took full advantage of that 680 GPU and i7 CPU.
 
Reply to me when you find anything with DDR5 ram.

So you are saying that the PS4 first party developers such as Naughty Dog won't come up with an engine tailor for the PS4 that won't match the UE4 demo? Like it or not the PS4 first party developers will blow that demo out of the water within 2 years.
 

InPlosion

Member
Uh, it is hilarious to see wiiu hecklers get served their very same medicine a day later.
Just accept reality, exclusives are the ONLY reason to own a console.
Power should not ever be factored in. Because the upper bound will always be there, looking down....(PC).
 
So you are saying that the PS4 first party developers such as Naughty Dog won't come up with an engine tailor for the PS4 that won't match the UE4 demo? Like it or not the PS4 first party developers will blow that demo out of the water within 2 years.
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I don't know why everyone is using this UE4 comparison as the ultimate graphics showdown when first-party studios will blow away every other game out there within two years, including on PC. The only PC game that will be comparable is Crysis 3. Nobody makes high budget AAA PC exclusives that are graphical showpieces anymore.
 

Ce-Lin

Member
So you are saying that the PS4 first party developers such as Naughty Dog won't come up with an engine tailor for the PS4 that won't match the UE4 demo? Like it or not the PS4 first party developers will blow that demo out of the water within 2 years.

the new Killzone game demo (alpha build coded in pre-alpha PS4 devkits) already looks better and shows more in terms of graphics than the UE4 PS4 demo... in my personal opinion of course, maybe I have deceiving eyes.
 
So you are saying that the PS4 first party developers such as Naughty Dog won't come up with an engine tailor for the PS4 that won't match the UE4 demo? Like it or not the PS4 first party developers will blow that demo out of the water within 2 years.

To be honest, that demo was not indicative of what the final engine will be capable of. I am sure Epic's Durango exclusive game will blow away that demo and the Naughty Dog game IMO.
 

Oppo

Member
That demo got ridiculously close to the i7/gtx 680 version. I'm fairly impressed for early work.

Also, I'm pretty sure I adjusted the Sparse Voxel Octree Global Illumination knob in Spaceteam last night. So that might be my fault.
 
It's unified memory, so you need to subtract whatever is used for the actual game code which on PS3 had to be around a 40/50 split between available main memory and video memory.

But yeah the 8GB was a surprise to many because it was thought to be overkill for the target.

Doesn't the 360 use a unfied memory setup too? Do we any idea about how much VRAM does the 360 use for games?
 

Koralsky

Member
Really? Some of the biggest and best UE3 games were made by EA last gen and now they transitioned over to Frostbite 3.0...

Square Enix = Luminous
Capcom = Panta Reih
Sony = Ice
Crytek = Cry Engine 3(lol)
EA = Frostbite 3.0
Activision = Developing their own engine ATM
Bethesda = Gamebyro lol
Microsoft = well they will get an exclusive ip from Epic, one from crytek, and probably work on an inhouse engine for Halo, Kinect games, Forza
Konami = Fox Engine
Valve = Source 2.0

who is left?

SEGA's also using their own engines for big titles like Yakuza, Total War, Relic games, Sonic and Football Manager.

I'm sure Creative Assembly's Alien title is not going to use U4.

UbiSoft - AnvilNext
Rockstar - Euphoria/RAGE

Also, Bethesda will use id Tech 5 for his future titles.
 
To be honest, that demo was not indicative of what the final engine will be capable of. I am sure Epic's Durango exclusive game will blow away that demo and the Naughty Dog game IMO.

EPIC could not blow away ND this gen so i don't see why you think it going to happen next gen .
Unless the next x box is a fairly big leap over PS4 that not going to happen .
Still i really want to see upcoming games on other engines to see how it compares to UE4.
 

Gumbie

Member
Jerking off to TEH FPS and benchmarks is fun and all, but at the end of the day I just like to play fun games. I really don't care what system it's running on.
 

Domstercool

Member
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I don't know why everyone is using this UE4 comparison as the ultimate graphics showdown when first-party studios will blow away every other game out there within two years, including on PC. The only PC game that will be comparable is Crysis 3. Nobody makes high budget AAA PC exclusives that are graphical showpieces anymore.

Crysis 3 isn't exclusive, but then you just used it as an example.

People seem to forget that you don't have to be exclusive to show off better image quality.

Metro 2033 and Witcher 2 look amazing on PC, people seem to forget. :/

There's a reason why PC games have various graphical settings from minimum to ultra.
 
EPIC could not blow away ND this gen so i don't see why you think it going to happen next gen .
Unless the next x box is a fairly big leap over PS4 that not going to happen .

Epic has been doing R&D for this upcoming gen for a while though...I think about 3 years. ND probably started working on PS4 2 years ago. Point is, Epic is at the forefront of technology at all times, ND stops and starts with console cycles....

They were probably heavily involved in the development of Durago too...
 
Crysis 3 isn't exclusive, but then you just used it as an example.

People seem to forget that you don't have to be exclusive to show off better image quality.

Metro 2033 and Witcher 2 look amazing on PC, people seem to forget. :/

There's a reason why PC games have various graphical settings from minimum to ultra.
I know it's not exclusive. There should have been a paragraph break in there somewhere. Metro 2033 and Witcher 2 don't look next-gen.
 

Triple U

Banned
Epic has been doing R&D for this upcoming gen for a while though...I think about 3 years. ND probably started working on PS4 2 years ago. Point is, Epic is at the forefront of technology at all times, ND stops and starts with console cycles....

They were probably heavily involved in the development of Durago too...
If you're talking about the team that does engines, you're wrong.
And I'm pretty sure you're wrong about when ND started on PS4. Sony said it had its teams involved in the process the whole way.
 
Really? Some of the biggest and best UE3 games were made by EA last gen and now they transitioned over to Frostbite 3.0...

Square Enix = Luminous
Capcom = Panta Reih
Sony = Ice
Crytek = Cry Engine 3(lol)
EA = Frostbite 3.0
Activision = Developing their own engine ATM
Bethesda = Gamebyro lol
Microsoft = well they will get an exclusive ip from Epic, one from crytek, and probably work on an inhouse engine for Halo, Kinect games, Forza
Konami = Fox Engine
Valve = Source 2.0

who is left?

You left out one of the most important developer: 2k games, and they did use unreal engine 3 for infinite iirc, i hope they do develop an in house engine for next gen.
 

Domstercool

Member
I know it's not exclusive. There should have been a paragraph break in there somewhere. Metro 2033 and Witcher 2 don't look next-gen.

What are you defining as next gen? Because they look a lot better than their console counter parts, so it obviously can't work on this current gen of consoles.

If you mean as good as the UE4? Then sure, yeah, but it won't be that long till you see the next lot of games looking better than Crysis 3, because developers will just take the build and up it for more powerful PCs. PCs will once again get better image quality than what you will ever get on PS4.
 

Dorfdepp

Neo Member
why? it's not the first time that PC software crashes or shows buggy performance on some hardware while running flawlessly on something else, actually is rather common. Here we go ignoring the basics of PC gaming. That demo was carefully made to start creating hype around UE4, it's only logical that they took full advantage of that 680 GPU and i7 CPU.

I urge you to look at Durantes post history before you shame yourself even more.
 
Epic has been doing R&D for this upcoming gen for a while though...I think about 3 years. ND probably started working on PS4 2 years ago. Point is, Epic is at the forefront of technology at all times, ND stops and starts with console cycles....

They were probably heavily involved in the development of Durago too...

It was the same for the PS3\ X box 360 epic was heavy into R&D before they came out and still not blow away ND or Sony first parties .
And from what we know most of Sony big first parties were heavily involved in making PS4 .
EPIC not going to blow away the big boys this gen when they on the same hardware in fact i expect 3rd parties to get rather close to first party games on console.
 
Nobody makes high budget AAA PC exclusives that are graphical showpieces anymore.

No but the multiplatform games are often only graphical showpieces on the PC.
I say that as someone with a middling PC that has mixed performance dependent on the game.

Some of the salt about PC gaming in here is ridiculous. I've never spoken to PC gamers who are angry, fanboyish or upset. Far as I can tell going the PC gaming route is simply a choice they make, and who are they to keep quiet about it.

Problem with next gen is whether or not its going to bring anything new. I want new to AAA games, if its the same shit priorities and dull art styles then am not going to bother.

As I said in another thread - Luigi's Mansion is seriously impressive, against anything frankly. A lot of this is down to presentation.

Truth is Naughty Dog only harness the power; the real benefit they bring is they hire great artists and a strong supporting programming team. This won't mean other devs become excellent artists. At all.

The biggest problem with current games are the fucking stupid incestous view of writing, all this 'we're great story tellers' - we all know the majority of game developers have some of the worst thematic ideas and couldn't write believable dialogue between them.

----------------------------------------

There lies the problem. The realisation that the visuals really are reaching their peak; and the fact is new hardware won't bring in new artists either visual artists, musicians, writers or directors. It'll be the same shitty teams of people who have become stuck up and stuck in their ways.

Its not the case across the board; but it is for many dev teams. The industry needs to show a change, least for me. Am not seeing that at all, am just seeing the same stuff over and over again.

/sigh

Am jaded. Give me E3 and I'll probably be happier. Am sitting talking about art and leaving out the most import - game designers. I've just put 60 hours into a franchise I've never played before (MH); gameplay is key.

Yet...I don't feel any change there either. I was down on UE4 before the PS4, and Capcom's stuff looked really cool (and like something that could influence gameplay to a degree).

Artistically the engine looks a bit lifeless from what they are showing. We'll see what devs at E3 bring; but BF4 has already annoyed me. We'll see. I think I just don't care about the visuals anymore I guess. So this stuff is all rather boring.

Think I might go back and try to play through MGS, the new games look really interesting. Great trailer. Last gen but still better than anything 'new gen' we've seen thus far, and I don't see where my hope is to come from frankly.

----------------------------------------

Speed-Edit: UE3 has actually gotten more popular, I made the same mistake - its that devs are using it for new styles you don't notice it in the way you'd play Xcom and instantly know what engine it was on.
 

Ding-Ding

Member
Epic has been doing R&D for this upcoming gen for a while though...I think about 3 years. ND probably started working on PS4 2 years ago. Point is, Epic is at the forefront of technology at all times, ND stops and starts with console cycles....

They were probably heavily involved in the development of Durago too...

I doubt that very much. A Naughty Dog and ICE team programmer has already stated that he is the one of the people working on the PS4's API.

So you can bet they will push the PS4 harder than EPIC will be able to do.
 
Jerking off to TEH FPS and benchmarks is fun and all, but at the end of the day I just like to play fun games. I really don't care what system it's running on.

Cool story bro, but this thread is about tech. Don't know why you think we care about why you play games.
 
Sorry not buying this. I remember reading the Wii U threads and people going on and on about alpha kits etc, and people coming in slamming them. So i doubt it will run significantly better once the final kits are out.

On consoles, most UE tech demos always end up looking inferior to actual games built around the engine. I'm shocked so many here on GAF think we've already seen the best of what PS4 can do.
 

Ce-Lin

Member
I urge you to look at Durantes post history before you shame yourself even more.

?? so PC software doesn't crash on different hardware now ? I'm not here to bow before anyone just on his/her nickname, all of us make mistakes, whatever the name. Durante calling me ridiculous for stating the obvious, that PC software usually shows buggy performance or crashes when running in different hardware, wasn't a fair call. I don't need to look post history for something that obvious, look at Tomb Raider, released not long ago, one hardware manufacturer didn't have proper access to the game code and the game was crashing running on their GPUs until new drivers were provided... why are you ignoring the facts ? it could be very well the case that the UE4 PC demo is tailored to that GTX 680 to the point using some other hardware will crash with it, am I really talking nonsense ? come on now please...
 
I doubt that very much. A Naughty Dog and ICE team programmer has already stated that he is the one of the people working on the PS4's API.

So you can bet they will push the PS4 harder than EPIC will be able to do.

oh ok! I hope Naughty Dog show their game at this e3
 

benny_a

extra source of jiggaflops
Some of the salt about PC gaming in here is ridiculous. I've never spoken to PC gamers who are angry, fanboyish or upset. Far as I can tell going the PC gaming route is simply a choice they make, and who are they to keep quiet about it.
Yes. Irrationality about purchasing decisions is an exclusive console phenomena. It's not like post-purchase rationalization or buyer's remorse has been occurring in every single walk of life.

It's absurd that PC gamers are held up as the bastion of rationality. Those that self-identify as this are equally susceptible to human cognitive biases as any other random group.

oh ok! I hope Naughty Dog show their game at this e3
I doubt ND shows their next game. The one they are working on right now is releasing E3 week.
 
This thing best be $250 at launch, any more than that is just highway robbery.

8 gigs of gddr5 ram, 2tflop of performance, controller, headset all for $250...yea ok bro

tumblr_mkln2tmQdE1r3gb3zo1_400.gif
 

KaiserBecks

Member
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I don't know why everyone is using this UE4 comparison as the ultimate graphics showdown when first-party studios will blow away every other game out there within two years, including on PC. The only PC game that will be comparable is Crysis 3. Nobody makes high budget AAA PC exclusives that are graphical showpieces anymore.

Yet every other game comes with better IQ. Do you think tearing, 30fps and Aliasing will be magically gone? And why would you assume that the UE4 engine won't evolve as well during those two years?
People use this demo as a comparison, because right now, it's pretty much the only reasonable way to compare the system's capabilities.

I can't understand why people would use graphics as a criterion when it comes to promoting consoles.
The reality is that it'll work in the beginning, when everything is new and shiny, but after those two years, your "showpieces" won't impress anyone anymore.
I'd much rather see what the new consoles add in terms of gameplay possibilities than play another dull Uncharted or Killzone with better graphics.
 
It's absurd that PC gamers are held up as the bastion of rationality. Those that self-identify as this are equally susceptible to human cognitive biases as any other random group.

No one is declaring the people happy with this bias however; its just people complaining about people who own more powerful PCs. Unless you can point me in the other direction.
 

Triple U

Banned
Yes. Irrationality about purchasing decisions is an exclusive console phenomena. It's not like post-purchase rationalization or buyer's remorse has been occurring in every single walk of life.

It's absurd that PC gamers are held up as the bastion of rationality. Those that self-identify as this are equally susceptible to human cognitive biases as any other random group.


I doubt ND shows their next game. The one they are working on right now is releasing E3 week.

Thats not the only team though. We're coming up on 2 years since the UC3 team has made any noise.
 

benny_a

extra source of jiggaflops
The reality is that it'll work in the beginning, when everything is new and shiny, but after those two years, your "showpieces" won't impress anyone anymore.
Digital Foundry was pretty impressed with Halo 4 which released last year. So it's not technically nobody.

I would argue though that there are multiple factors that contribute to PC gamers' basic position being less likely to invoke cognitive dissonance. But really, what's the point.
I would love to hear them.
 

Durante

Member
I urge you to look at Durantes post history before you shame yourself even more.
Please don't do this. Appeals to authority are not good arguments.

Durante calling me ridiculous for stating the obvious, that PC software usually shows buggy performance or crashes when running in different hardware, wasn't a fair call.
I didn't call you ridiculous, I called the supposition that UE4 would crash when run on something other than a 680 and an i7 ridiculous. Epic is in the business of creating middleware. Their engine powers their next big PC title (Fortnite). It's exceedingly likely that their build system tests every single build on a large variety of hardware.

It's absurd that PC gamers are held up as the bastion of rationality. Those that self-identify as this are equally susceptible to human cognitive biases as any other random group.
I would argue though that there are multiple factors that contribute to PC gamers' basic position being less likely to invoke cognitive dissonance. But really, what's the point.
 
Please don't do this. Appeals to authority are not good arguments.

I didn't call you ridiculous, I called the supposition that UE4 would crash when run on something other than a 680 and an i7 ridiculous. Epic is in the business of creating middleware. Their engine powers their next big PC title (Fortnite). It's exceedingly likely that their build system tests every single build on a large variety of hardware.
Why is UE4 running badly on lower than 680 hardware even preposterous to these people? People didn't cry over UE3 not running amazingly on their 6800GTs and X800, why should it be any different for people now?
 
Thats not the only team though. We're coming up on 2 years since the UC3 team has made any noise.

the thing is, Ready at Dawn has been working on a game longer than ND. So Sony might decide to focus on RAD's new game over ND's. ND might tease something at VGA 2013 in December.
 

Triple U

Banned
Losing real time GI is such a blow.

I was looking forward to it.

Epic isn't exactly an authority on what will show up this gen. Fairly certain ND for instance will strive for GI seeing that they approximated that in there games.

Coding to the metal is a myth from everything I've read, but you're right that the PS4 won't have the same overhead as a PC using Windows.

I'd really like to see what you've read.
 
Their engine is modified middleware so one can always hope that they start with a new middleware this gen and modify it as they did with Gamebryo.

Rooting around in the creation kit, messing with console commands etc. is interesting due to how little many core systems (re: scripting and stuff) have changed between Morrowind and Skyrim. Obviously "Creation" works very differently overall and isn't remotely as close to New Vegas as New Vegas is to Oblivion, but you use a lot of the same tricks you learn from modding Morrowind. It's just the way they have to develop these things since the basics that people expect from an ES/new Fallout game are so damn complicated. If they were just making a linear action RPG every two or three years we'd probably get major leaps in visuals and animation every time.
 
The reality is that it'll work in the beginning, when everything is new and shiny, but after those two years, your "showpieces" won't impress anyone anymore.

What kind of logic is this? You don't need insane resolutions and 8xAA and 120fps to be impressed by a game's visuals. Do you know how many here on GAF were impressed by games like God of War 3 and Ascension, Uncharted 3, Killzone 3, Gears 3, Halo 4, Forza, etc?
 
I'd really like to see what you've read.

I think it's been mentioned several times, but coding to the metal doesn't improve performance all that much. Most of the console efficiency comes with the fact that developers only have one set of specs to target and can optimise the rendering pipeline for that setup. Windows and API overheads are not nearly as significant, meaning coding to the metal doesn't make as big a difference.
 
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