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Avalanche CTO talks about the differences between PS4 & XB1's dev tools and hardware

Clear

CliffyB's Cock Holster
If the tools/environment are as good as is rumoured, this really is another 180 degree turnaround for Sony who have historically always been slow as molasses at getting this stuff ready.

Cerny really seems to be working wonders for them, its quite an unprecedented turnaround.
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
Another thing to consider is that wouldn't any game that relies on off-loading anything to the cloud require servers to be maintained in perpetuity just to enable the game to function at all. This would strike me as expensive for the platform holder and/or publisher and a risky proposition for the purchaser.

You could use it for superficial things that degrade gracefully if the network is absent. A likely strategy.

And agree with the other above poster about more likely application in MP games. You can already depend on a constant connection in that circumstance and it is more economical than provisioning cloud processing for single player - multiple players can benefit from the same processing vs one in the latter case. Isn't to say you won't see single player games do stuff like this, but if MS is charging pubs for cloud time used in their games, MP usage might be more likely.
 
Considering some people think single-player games are on their way out, every game could potentially be always-on. Which would highlight why Microsoft are betting the bank on it.
 

The Jason

Member
Interview says PS4 has a more mature dev environment, but MS will catch up.

Then it says the PS4 on paper is more powerful, but there are other factors involved

It does not say PS4 is more powerful - but Xbox one will catch up.

The Edge headline is misleading. But the article goes on to say "PlayStation 4 currently beats Xbox One

in terms of raw power and has a more mature developer environment, Avalanche Studios has told us."


Edit: nice title change
 

CLEEK

Member
Cloud processing is not suited to interactive realtime rendering e.g. videogames. There are non-time critical tasks that can be processed offline, but cloud processing will make zero difference to the graphical/rendering performance. Zero.
 

Oppo

Member
I see Cloud stuff is the new Secret Sauce ;)

Forgive the perhaps-dumb question, but MS sells Azure stuff. Servers and server time. Can other pubs/devs not, like, buy that stuff? Including Sony? In othe words I don't get why Azure would be this big win for MS when Sony can have it too, if they want?
 

2MF

Member
I see Cloud stuff is the new Secret Sauce ;)

Forgive the perhaps-dumb question, but MS sells Azure stuff. Servers and server time. Can other pubs/devs not, like, buy that stuff? Including Sony? In othe words I don't get why Azure would be this big win for MS when Sony can have it too, if they want?

Sony would have to buy it for retail prices. It may or may not be cheaper for them to build their own infrastructure (depending on how much of it they need).
 

Quasar

Member
Sony would have to buy it for retail prices. It may or may not be cheaper for them to build their own infrastructure (depending on how much of it they need).

I've wondered about that for a while given the crashes various games have had whilst Netflix cruises along for the most part happily using AWS. Why would publishers build their own server infrastructure when they have AWS, Azure and Google that they could use and would probably be more reliable and cheaper.
 

vio

Member
Dat secret sauce drenched via cloud, I guess.
AmmaqtU.png

4nTf8Zm.jpg
 

thuway

Member
I don't think that the difference will be very pronounced in the end, but the very fact that the PS4 development environment seems to be more mature at this point is mind blowing. Microsoft, the software company, the makers of DirectX and Visual Studio, known for their excellent tools and developer support. What the hell have you been doing all this time, guys?

A strong lack of vision my friend.

Fixed the topic to be more accurate.
Thank you sir.
 

TheOddOne

Member
Xbox fans really really want the Xbone to be more powerful the the PS4, at this point they are willing to accept any type of lies, wait for E3 is a good one then they'll switch to The Infinite Power of the Cloud will give us more polys and more frames

poor lad, still hoping for a spec change at this point eh?
These are both bizarre replies. Why be so defensive? Seems irrationalism seems to be clouding people judgement over news. People who think the specs are going to be bumped are crazy, but people who wish or chastise other people who want the specs to not be bumped are equally as crazy. Seems petty and childish.

I for one believe the 1.2 TF thing btw.

That same guys also said this: Avalanche: 'PS4 development a walk in the park'
Avalanche Studios' Linus Blomberg suggests experience of PS4 development, and sees the machine as a PC-beater

Avalanche Studios CTO Linus Blomberg has described developing for the recently announced PlayStation 4 as 'a walk in the park'.

Speaking with Develop, the co-founder of the Just Cause studio has showered Sony's forthcoming console with praise, although he admitted it will take time for some devs to familiarise themselves with the platform.

"Compared to the PS3 it's a walk in the park," stated Blomberg. "I think that's one of the major lessons Sony learned with the last generation, you have to be accessible for the developers to be successful. Of course, there's still some quirkiness involved, especially if you're used to a Windows development environment."

He also told Develop that he believes the PS4 could outperform PCs for many years,
"The hardware as such is great, and will outperform most PC's for many years to come," he claimed. "But the true greatness lies in the accessibility and ecosystem supporting it in terms of social connectivity and cloud services."

Blomberg's comments about ease of developing for the PS4 seem to suggest the studio has experience making games for the systems. It is rumoured the studio is at work on a new Just Cause game and a Mad Max open world title, but neither is confirmed for PS4.
I pointed out that tweet, because 1) Avalanche seems to indicating that they will show something at E3 (Which freaking awesome info) and 2) MS seems to have (Well maybe) put NDA's on the specs. Well, looking at the other developer comment off-the-record it all indicated 1.2 TF.
 

chubigans

y'all should be ashamed
I can't tell if some people are being sarcastic with the cloud computing thing or if they genuinely believe it'll be a viable boost of performance for games.
 

LiquidMetal14

hide your water-based mammals
I can't tell if some people are being sarcastic with the cloud computing thing or if they genuinely believe it'll be a viable boost of performance for games.

Remember, Sony also was pushing this a few years back. People will eat up any bit of news.
 

Erasus

Member
He is talking about the dev tools right? We might see "driver releases" in system updates when they say "system stability improved" but I think he means the dev tools.

Pretty weird that MS is behind on that... VS is their software and DirectX is theirs...
 

Durante

Member
I really think this (MS being behind in dev tools) might be the most surprising news of the past few weeks.

Everything else was leaked or speculated, but I think very few people honestly expected this.
 

Tripolygon

Banned
It is quite simple really.

1. Sony's hardwares have always been very very bespoke and esoteric in nature that they have to write new codes and API from scratch every time, these guys are very smart.

2. PS4 SDK and API are open source, developers are encouraged to modify and report their findings to Sony.

that being said this is nothing to be alarmed about, APIs, IDEs and SDKs have been known to mature over time and improve. Microsoft is no newcomer when it comes to software developing and improving their API. PS3 started as a shitter and over time, the API improved to where we are now getting some of the best looking and most ambitious games in Beyond two Souls visuals and The Last of Us {kinda}human-like contextual AI.
 

LiquidMetal14

hide your water-based mammals
I really think this (MS being behind in dev tools) might be the most surprising news of the past few weeks.

Everything else was leaked or speculated, but I think very few people honestly expected this.

It's obvious that both platforms are going to be maturing with tools and such. Remember that Sony also said that the tools are not mature yet (don't have the thread handy) so PS4 should see improvements as well. The systems haven't launched yet so we should see some nice improvements.
 
Avalanche doesn't want to upset MS it seems. It's damn criminal that MS should be lagging so far behind in the Dev kits. This is worse than Nintendo because they at least had final dev kits out weeks before E3 last year.

Let's see how diplomatic they are once all the sales are in.
 

Withnail

Member
It is quite simple really.

1. Sony's hardwares have always been very very bespoke and esoteric in nature that they have to write new codes and apis from scratch every time, these guys are very smart.

2. PS4 sdk and apis are open source, developers are encouraged to modify and report their findings to Sony.

It's more that the PS4 has a very straightforward architecture whereas Xbone has move engines, split memory pools, three OSes, etc. The tools have to be written for the hardware. Sony's design is simple so their tools are simple.
 

stryke

Member
I really think this (MS being behind in dev tools) might be the most surprising news of the past few weeks.

Everything else was leaked or speculated, but I think very few people honestly expected this.

Well, they did spend 5 years. Okay maybe not literally but it's good to know they've used their time productively.
 
I really think this (MS being behind in dev tools) might be the most surprising news of the past few weeks.

Everything else was leaked or speculated, but I think very few people honestly expected this.

Maybe this lends weight to that Kotaku article where they said sources are telling them MS is behind Sony in software (and hardware) development.
 

TheOddOne

Member
Avalanche doesn't want to upset MS it seems. It's damn criminal that MS should be lagging so far behind in the Dev kits. This is worse than Nintendo because they at least had final dev kits out weeks before E3 last year.

Let's see how diplomatic they are once all the sales are in.
Dev kits = dev tools? I think you mixed up two different things or am I wrong?
 

Kunan

Member
I can't tell if some people are being sarcastic with the cloud computing thing or if they genuinely believe it'll be a viable boost of performance for games.
Not only that... I can't tell if people are suddenly ok with always online, assuming such gains are even possible in the first place.
 
I really think this (MS being behind in dev tools) might be the most surprising news of the past few weeks.

Everything else was leaked or speculated, but I think very few people honestly expected this.
There was something of a leak a little while back that MS was behind in general with everything. And it shows.
 

trmas

Banned
As a network person, those who are counting on the Cloud to save MS on spec differences, good luck... That just isn't going to happen. The roles are reversed this time, as MS never expected Sony to make such a developer friendly box.

PS4 appears to be very easy to develop for, like a PC. The Xbone, will probably eventually catch up in year two or three like the PS3 did, but never in terms of raw power. The PS4 is just more powerful

The cloud isn't going to change that - you seem to misunderstand what cloud actually is or does. Not surprising, most folks do
 
Exactly the entire game runs on a server. So the only data being sent over the network is heavily compressed video/audio and controller input commands.

That type of data is more trivial to deal with using the Internet's unreliable infrastructure. Compared to doing some calculations over the cloud and some locally, whilst maintaining a steady 30 or 60fps frame rate. And also dealing with error corrections/data drop outs is easier with video than with physics calculations, AI and GPU data.

Please think about you are typing before pressing send.
 

Durante

Member
It's obvious that both platforms are going to be maturing with tools and such. Remember that Sony also said that the tools are not mature yet (don't have the thread handy) so PS4 should see improvements as well. The systems haven't launched yet so we should see some nice improvements.
Sure, that's completely normal and the expected state of affairs.

The surprising part is that at this point in time Sony's tools are apparently more mature than MS'. That's not the expected state of affairs for anyone looking at history or their purported strengths as companies.
 

Tripolygon

Banned
Avalanche doesn't want to upset MS it seems. It's damn criminal that MS should be lagging so far behind in the Dev kits. This is worse than Nintendo because they at least had final dev kits out weeks before E3 last year.

Let's see how diplomatic they are once all the sales are in.

Jeez this has nothing to do with developers having dev kits, it is about how mature their development environment is. It is not lagging behind, Sony's is just maturing a bit faster. Semantics, I know.
 

Margalis

Banned
Jeez this has nothing to do with developers having dev kits, it is about how mature their development environment is. It is not lagging behind, Sony's is just maturing a bit faster. Semantics, I know.

This guy isn't losing the race, he's just not winning it as much!
 
And now that people like to talk some much about ESRAM latency... Think about the latency when you send data via internet to be processed by a server far far away...

And another thing, do people think MS is going to have for each X1 sold a equivalent 600 gflops gpu in its servers reserver for that console sold to catch up PS4 GPU performance?. Well, it would have been easier and cheaper for them to include that power in the console from the beginning and make the customer pay directly for it...

These are all just uncomfortable truths (especially the latency one), no room for those in console wars and games PR *cough * I mean journalism, sorry I choked on my words.
Cloud 'computing' is NEVER going to fit into games unless the server is in your own house.
Devs work their asses off to cut a single ms off the time it takes to do each part of a frame, I know guys, let's send this data out to be calculated on another computer hundreds of kilometers away and add another 50-100 ms of input lag, brilliant. Man holy shit think about how uneven the frametimes would be if you had to rely on pinging data to a server with packet loss and choke doubling or tripling the latency at random!

Amd and nvidia try their hardest to improve the memory bus of a gpu so the data can be accessed and moved as fast as possible.

"I know what we should do!" said a brilliant young Microsoft engineer.
Instead of sending this data through a memory bus at a bandwidth measured in 100s of GB/sec with a latency measured in clockcycles, let's send it over a wifi connection (with hilarious amounts of packet loss) onto the internet at a bandwidth measured in megabits per second and a latency measured in tens to hundreds of milliseconds.

The mere concept is so fucking stupid yet game junnalists like Edge try to sell it to the plebs anyhow.
Shills.

(can't wait for someone to confuse rendering a frame with server side loot/spawns like in diablo)
 

Tripolygon

Banned
This guy isn't losing the race, he's just not winning it as much!

Wrong analogy. This implies Microsoft and Sony are in a race to a finish line when it comes to software development which they are not. Their respective engineers have been given a task to create a good development environment for their respective consoles, these things have no finish line, they continue to evolve and become more mature as years go by.
 
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