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[cosmicblizzard]

Well, more like trying to clarify. Anyone who knows me from OT knows this is definitely not my kind of mini-game, but the video's representation of what's in the mini-game is wrong in several parts. People can be angry over the content, but at least they should be angry over what's actually in it.

Well, at least it sounds like you know Suda51 isn't some crazy sexist that should hand in his hypothetical game development badge like some people here and Lees think.

Even if you are involved in the game and don't have a completely unbiased view on it, nothing sounds unreasonable enough to warrant this outrage, at least in my opinion. Of course, I wouldn't think that way even if Lees' video was completely accurate, in which case it would sound way too over the top to be taken seriously in any capacity.

 

[Scher]

Because if they are, they aren't subject to PC and complaints such as these. It's the directors vision and whether you wanna partake in his vision (i.e. purchasing the game).

This is an absolutely ridiculous thing to say. Being "art' does not make something immune to criticism. If anything, criticism is an important part of art. The ability to really analyze something is what allows artists to improve their work, and claiming "artistic vision" is nothing more than a lazy excuse made so that someone can refuse to improve.

 

[Nanashi]

Ah. Fine then. I assumed that your comment was some sort of feeble mimicry of other posters who try to ease their way out of a bad comment by low-balling its negative implications with comments like

"I'm not racist, but [insert racist comment here]"
"I'm not saying she had it coming, but [insert shitty, sexist comment here]"

and stuff like that. There's a lot of posters who have sensible opinions and obnoxiously swollen heads about themselves, and they usually get their kicks by pantomiming people who shit up a thread, and then patting each other on the back as if they've accomplished something noteworthy. It's getting to the point where I'm so sick of bullshit like the aforementioned nonsense that my heart skips a beat when I see the usual suspects line up, and I assumed that you were pulling the same shit.

I honestly don't mean to drag you into this if you're being earnest. I don't agree with what you've said, but if you're not just stroking your own ego in all this then just ignore that I quoted you to begin with. I'd try to talk with you, but after the self-congratulatory bullshit that I've seen in OT, I'm just done with debates for now. I'd honestly rather talk to the most hyper-reactionary, ignorant, stubborn user on this site than put up with that bullshit (not saying that that's you, I'm just exaggerating to make a point). Again, sorry.

Well, I respect your views and can definitely empathise because there is a lot of bad and poor treatment of women in this world that still needs to be looked at (Mostly in third-world countries. Rape in Africa is really horrible to me, for example.). I just think that sometimes, people get a bit too emotionally affected by that and let it bleed into other contexts where it's not so much a sin as a cheap decision.

Suda51 makes shallow games with cheap sexual components, and that's not so much bad as shallow, but some people like shallow stuff and I'm not going to guilt trip them for it because I like quite a lot of other shallow stuff too. I'd be much more annoyed at Valhalla Knights and the entire "female only" club thing they have in that game (that one irritates me because I figure that if you're going to exploit one gender, you should do the other too, otherwise it carries the unfortunate implication that the majority of gamers are brainless groin-motivated heterosexual males who can't see beyond the end of their genitalia.) I won't argue vehemently that it should be taken out, though.

You sound pretty stressed out and like you need a vacation, really. Take care of yourself.

 

[QisTopTier]

I think the idea of the minigame is rather funny and far less creepy than most threads in Off Topic or any discussion held by a group of average men for that matter.

You should see the cosplay thread

 

[Coffee Dog]

Reading through this thread, it seems like people are taking what is meant to be over the top and satirical at it's most surface level.

It reminds me of Bayonetta and Lollipop Chainsaw, where the sexuality of the main characters is something that is played for humor, as opposed to titillation.

 

[fabricated backlash]

It's ironic that this constant crusade against the sexualization of female characters in gaming is verging on the reinforcement of puritanical sensibilities. The same aversions to vulgarity and imposed modesty that once prevented women from ever experiencing an orgasm, wearing a skirt above the ankles or pants, choosing their partners, being educated, working etc... and instead burned them at the stake after branding them as adulterous witches of Satan and whores of Babylon.

Tired of this foolishness from people with mouths bigger than their eyes, tbh.

Pretty much. Because the cure for sexism is obviously complete denial of sexuality itself.
If it weren't so pathetically misguided and dangerous, it'd be ironic.

 

[Village]

And we come full circle to my is it art or not argument.

Cause if it is, pushing for shit to be removed because it's offensive has no merit.

I'm gonna have to disagree with you.
This thing is case by case basis. I do not believe its as black and white as you have stated

 

[Sinatar]

More like

Aka the most well developed female character in all of videogame fiction.

 

[Exr]

Sorry.

Either games are art or they aren't. Let's make up our minds on this here and now.

Because if they are, they aren't subject to PC and complaints such as these. It's the directors vision and whether you wanna partake in his vision (i.e. purchasing the game).

If they aren't art, then they do indeed need to be PC and this entire discussion has merit.

So which is it everyone?

So would you argue that the entirety of all movies stands as art? Movies like Sharknado and Tyler Perry movies? We can have socially conscious games, but we all know Sudas schtick by now. Every game he has made in the past has had very sexualized women, from No More Heros to Shadows of the Dammned. You can be outraged by this stuff sure, but the guy is known for these games. It's like getting mad at a movie director who makes cringeworthy movies.

 

[FINALBOSS]

This is an absolutely ridiculous thing to say. Being "art' does not make something immune to criticism. If anything, criticism is an important part of art. The ability to really analyze something is what allows artists to improve their work, and claiming "artistic vision" is nothing more than a lazy excuse made so that someone can refuse to improve.

It's ridiculous when taken out of context.

But in my post I related it to arguing for this particular mode and other modes like it to be "taken out".

And sorry, but complaining about things being PC/offensive/derogatory towards men or women/violence so they can be removed/change doesn't improve anything.

As we said earlier, where do we draw the line?

 

[Clawww]

This is an absolutely ridiculous thing to say. Being "art' does not make something immune to criticism. If anything, criticism is an important part of art. The ability to really analyze something is what allows artists to improve their work, and claiming "artistic vision" is nothing more than a lazy excuse made so that someone can refuse to improve.

he never claimed that 'art is immune from criticism'

he's talking how other works of art in different fields don't get put on trial for having controversial themes or content

 

[Village]

I think the people who are saying that they'll never purchase this game...never planned to buy this game in the first place. Japan doesn't give a flying fuck about this, suda fans are already clamoring over this, and suda himself doesn't give a fuck.

People do not care about lots of things, does not make it right.

 

[NoirVisage]

yawn..In this thread:

its the world this character lives in, and how he chooses to spend his free time..how some men AND women choose to spend their free time..its supposed to base, the character isn't supposed to be your knight in shining armor. none of sudas characters are.

 

[Nocturnowl]

I'm more bothered by how uninteresting the mode sounds to actually play if anything, the not so thrilling scenario of stealthy staring isn't the reason i've got my eye on this game.
Though someone mentioned it was optional which solves my problem at least.

 

[CrimsonCrescendo]

It's ironic that this constant crusade against the sexualization of female characters in gaming is verging on the reinforcement of puritanical sensibilities. The same aversions to vulgarity and imposed modesty that once prevented women from ever experiencing an orgasm, wearing a skirt above the ankles or pants, choosing their partners, being educated, working etc... and instead burned them at the stake after branding them as adulterous witches of Satan and whores of Babylon.

Tired of this foolishness from people with mouths bigger than their eyes, tbh.

Because not being fully accepting of a minigame where a guy is a creeper who spies on a woman in a bar as he sneaks looks at her boobs, crotch, what have you when it is quite apparent that she doesn't approve (she slaps you if she sees you) is totally the same as reinforcing that women shouldn't have sexual freedom and control over her body and will lead back to burning people at the stake. Well done.

You wanna make a minigame where a woman gets it on as much as the man, fine by me. A woman can have as much sex as she wants with whoever she wants. But this is about a dude being a creeper in a bar. Context is everything.

 

[Azriell]

Who fucking cares? It's an optional thing in a niche Japanese game. It's not like Gigalo Mode from Killer Is Dead (Rated M) is the banner game that represents all other games, or even most games, or even a lot of games. If you like this sort of thing, enjoy it. If it offends you, play something else.

I'm more bothered by this

Spoiler

twat

trying to pass judgement on someone's creation as if he was some absolute authority on what people find enjoyable or offensive.

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

Just don't buy the game. I can understand being put off by this mode (I'm not exactly crazy about it, either). But does that mean that Suda shouldn't have the right to implement it in his game? I think conversations about women's roles in games are important, but whenever they take this silly and hyperbolic route it just ends up hurting any kind of potential positive outcome.

Spoiler

At nobody was accused of being a pedophile this time, right?

 

[Village]

he never claimed that 'art is immune from criticism'

he's talking how other works of art in different fields don't get put on trial for having controversial themes or content

They do all time.

Also lets not pretend here, this isn't controversial or challenging taboo's you are being creepy in a game mode.

 

[Gold_Loot]

Without reading through this entire thread, all I can say is, "what is the problem with this?"

I'm willing to bet that this Matt Lees fellow, as well as some people here are at that unfortunate age where he's mature to take a stance on something he dislikes, but not quite old enough to fully understand satire or intentionally over the top scenarios . "Hyper real" as Suda himself stated. I'm willing to bet, no matter how old the players of this game may be, that they know how goofy and outrageous these scenes are.

In my opinion I feel like it would be a much larger disservice to women in general if these segments were going for realism with nothing more than dialog trees, gifts and meters..

At the end of the day, it's just some wack jack schlock that nobody should take seriously.. Please lighten up..

Just a little bit..

For me?

 

[Coffee Dog]

So would you argue that the entirety of all movies stands as art? Movies like Sharknado and Tyler Perry movies? We can have socially conscious games, but we all know Sudas schtick by now. Every game he has made in the past has had very sexualized women, from No More Heros to Shadows of the Dammned. You can be outraged by this stuff sure, but the guy is known for these games. It's like getting mad at a movie director who makes cringeworthy movies.

Women can't be sexy? You're more a puritan than a feminist, my friend.

 

[Face it Tiger..]

Don't get your panties in a knot, OP.

It's one mode.

 

[params7]

the boss gif

And? Context is everything in that scene.

 

[Astarte]

People do not care about lots of things, does not make it right.

It's just an optional segment in a fictional setting that has no impact on the game at all. Both genders have strong characters that both kick ass on an equal level in the main plot, women can be just as shallow as men, etc etc.
Ey babe teach me where to get x ray glasses

 

[Vice]

So would you argue that the entirety of all movies stands as art? Movies like Sharknado and Tyler Perry movies? We can have socially conscious games, but we all know Sudas schtick by now. Every game he has made in the past has had very sexualized women, from No More Heros to Shadows of the Dammned. You can be outraged by this stuff sure, but the guy is known for these games. It's like getting mad at a movie director who makes cringeworthy movies.

Those movies are art. Art is not a qualitative statement.

The mix of sexuality and violence in Suda games has been a key aesthetic in his work for years now. There's nothing wrong with it, games just have no idea how to handle it but a Suda 51 joint is no worse than a dialog tree for romance in say "Mass Effect 2"

 

[Clawww]

People do not care about lots of things, does not make it right.

do games have an obligation to be 'right'?

 

[BocoDragon]

It's ironic that this constant crusade against the sexualization of female characters in gaming is verging on the reinforcement of puritanical sensibilities. The same aversions to vulgarity and imposed modesty that once prevented women from ever experiencing an orgasm, wearing a skirt above the ankles or pants, choosing their partners, being educated, working etc... and instead burned them at the stake after branding them as adulterous witches of Satan and whores of Babylon.

Tired of this foolishness from people with mouths bigger than their eyes, tbh.

I do think a lot of the same controlling tendencies that once guided conversative repression of sexuality now guide progressive policing of sexual media.

Whether you are right wing or left: everyone seems to get very riled up about the sexual status of women.

 

[cj_iwakura]

Suda didn't direct the game, and I'm not sure he even wrote it.

 

[Kikujiro]

Suda makes crap games and the only way to sell them is to use tits and asses (just look at the marketing videos) or being as stylish as possible, it's as simple as that. Guy is like a college student who watched a lot of B-movie shit and thinks he's actually smart, his ideas are all derivative and unoriginal. He's not Russ Meyer.
And you know what, it's totally fine! I'm totally fine with tits and asses in a B-movie game, just like movies (see Piranha or any cheap horror flick), but I'm fine with people criticizing it too. If something sounds extremely stupid expect people to notice it.

 

[FINALBOSS]

So would you argue that the entirety of all movies stands as art? Movies like Sharknado and Tyler Perry movies? We can have socially conscious games, but we all know Sudas schtick by now. Every game he has made in the past has had very sexualized women, from No More Heros to Shadows of the Dammned. You can be outraged by this stuff sure, but the guy is known for these games. It's like getting mad at a movie director who makes cringeworthy movies.

Shitty art, sure. But art nonetheless.

I'm not arguing that all artforms are immune from criticism. I'm arguing that complaints that things needed to be changed or altered because it doesn't fit a particular subset group's sensibilities is wrong.

People do not care about lots of things, does not make it right.

You obviously are against this mode.

Where would you like the draw the line?

 

[Izayoi]

I'm always amused at the people who fake disgust and outrage over a game's sexual content, yet they don't seem to think the rest of the game revolving solely about murdering and maiming other human beings as offensive. It's a highly fascinating look at modern society's obsession with preset agendas

It really is absolutely fantastic.

 

[Apocryphon]

Japanese game has weird unrealistic stuff in it and objectifies women. News at 11.

 

[fabricated backlash]

Those movies are art. Art is not a qualitative statement.

Can't be stated enough.

 

[Coffee Dog]

And? Context is everything in that scene.

Considering that what discussions like this often boil down to is the relevancy of context, I doubt that much matters to him.

 

[Jenga]

Suda makes crap games and the only way to sell them is to use tits and asses (just look at the marketing videos) or being as stylish as possible, it's as simple as that. Guy is like a college student who watched a lot of B-movie shit and thinks he's actually smart, his ideas are all derivative and unoriginal. He's not Russ Meyer.
And you know what, it's totally fine! I'm totally fine with tits and asses in a B-movie game, just like movies (see Piranha or any cheap horror flick), but I'm fine with people criticizing it too. If something sounds extremely stupid expect people to notice it.

oh yeah

well you make crap games!

 

[Clawww]

Can't be stated enough.

especially not on GAF

 

[fabricated backlash]

especially not on GAF

nah everywhere in life.

 

[rosaceadude2112]

More like

Aka the most well developed female character in all of videogame fiction.

kreia

 

[Gbraga]

But this is about a dude being a creeper in a bar.

I get that, and I get that some people would refuse to play a game that features said thing, but why should that be an issue with the game and game creators? Why should Suda stop making games and lose respect as a developer because of this? His character is a creeper, so what? He can make a racist pig that shits on people of different race if he wants, that doesn't mean he's one himself. I think the idea of censoring characters is very dangerous and limits creativity. A flawed character can be interesting as well. No one is forcing anyone to play as the creeper if they don't want to, but his statements about Suda and his team were hyperbolic as fuck and he needs to chill.

Mondo Zappa stares at women's tits, that doesn't necessarily imply that the character designer does this, that the sound director does this, the combat designer does this, this is ridiculous.

I know the sex = violence comparison is flawed as hell, but let's see if I can make some sense using it: If you don't like violence in games and refuse to play a game where you kill people, that's fine, go for it! But accusing the creators of murder and saying they shouldn't be allowed to make games anymore is just stupid.

 

[Astarte]

Suda makes crap games and the only way to sell them is to use tits and asses (just look at the marketing videos) or being as stylish as possible, it's as simple as that. Guy is like a college student who watched a lot of B-movie shit and thinks he's actually smart, his ideas are all derivative and unoriginal. He's not Russ Meyer.
And you know what, it's totally fine! I'm totally fine with tits and asses in a B-movie game, just like movies (see Piranha or any cheap horror flick), but I'm fine with people criticizing it too. If something sounds extremely stupid expect people to notice it.

You're killing me. You are literally
knife
in
hand
stabbing me

 

[Zemm]

Is this going to be a game like Catherine where you don't want anyone to walk in whilst you play it because there's what looks like a underage cartoon character with her tits out? Just need to know so I can lock the door in advance.

 

[Infinitydragon]

Correct me if i am wrong but it always seemed to me that Japanese culture views something like this more of an immature aspect of a character's personality that should not be taken seriously.

It is supposed to be something to laugh at not have a discussion about.

 

[Village]

You obviously are against this mode.

Where would you like the draw the line?

Fun Fact:Actually ambivalent towards it, I find it funny in a sad kind of way. I feel no way or the other about this game , just challenging weird logical conclusions people seem to be coming to.

do games have an obligation to be 'right'?

They don't however people can talk shit about they ones they do not feel are.

 

[Delusibeta]

Heh, funny. Suda might have earned less scrutiny by throwing in an ersatz version of the Daily Mail into the game instead, truth be told.

Probably. Hell, Suda probably won't have to exaggerate that much. (Mandatory: dailymailonbrasseye.jpg)

(And for the record, the /s was for the "curiously out of character" bit. I have no idea what's Matt's position on the whole women in video games thing, but I'd reckon it'll be in the similar ballpark to John Walker. What wasn't sarcasm was the "Prime Minister defending newspapers prints topless women on page 3" bit. I can't find the exact link, but I do know it was during an interview on Women's Hour, where he claimed the print media should have the right to print that stuff or something along those lines, after demanding all ISPs to have internet filters enabled by default. All of the irony).

 

[H.Protagonist]

Well, at least it sounds like you know Suda51 isn't some crazy sexist that should hand in his hypothetical game development badge like some people here and Lees think.

Even if you are involved in the game and don't have a completely unbiased view on it, nothing sounds unreasonable enough to warrant this outrage, at least in my opinion. Of course, I wouldn't think that way even if Lees' video was completely accurate, in which case it would sound way too over the top to be taken seriously in any capacity.

I would certainly much prefer that the playing field in video games was more level (less emphasis on sexy/pointless,disproportionately endowed women), but there are all kinds of audiences and there is one for this kind of mini-game. Some people like sex, some like boobs and titillating fantasy. If it wasn't so frustratingly prevalent in this form of entertainment, I don't think there would be such a reaction, so it's definitely not a bad thing to be more aware of content like this. It'd be great for that passion to be applied to making other kinds of games too, though.

And, yes, my involvement does definitely suggest a grain of salt (which is why my affiliation is front and center), but the misinformation was bothering me. I do understand the dislike for it, and it's a valid reaction. I just wanted to make sure it wasn't unduly turning people off for the wrong reasons.

EDIT to add: I think you're the only one who saw my post, though, so it probably won't matter in the end.

 

[FINALBOSS]

Fun Fact:Actually ambivalent towards it, I find it funny in a sad kind of way. I feel no way or the other about this game , just challenging weird logical conclusions people seem to be coming to.



They don't however people can talk shit about they ones they do not feel are.

Well then, what's the point?

I usually don't argue or challenge people unless I care about something.

Bored? Lol

 

[Harlock]

The american culture are being castrated for this puritanism. Is like this stupid Bob Mackey review of Lollipop Chainsaw:

http://www.1up.com/reviews/lollipop-chainsaw-review

Let's tackle one thing immediately: Lollipop Chainsaw is not a game you want to play in front of your girlfriend. Or any woman. Or anyone who's ever enjoyed the presence of womankind

 

[Vice]

Because not being fully accepting of a minigame where a guy is a creeper who spies on a woman in a bar as he sneaks looks at her boobs, crotch, what have you when it is quite apparent that she doesn't approve (she slaps you if she sees you) is totally the same as reinforcing that women shouldn't have sexual freedom and control over her body and will lead back to burning people at the stake. Well done.

You wanna make a minigame where a woman gets it on as much as the man, fine by me. A woman can have as much sex as she wants with whoever she wants. But this is about a dude being a creeper in a bar. Context is everything.

The character in this game is an actual character. Having a character be flawed or overly focused on sex is fine. It's a real personality trait that people have. In this game it seems to be taken to an extreme for the sake of absurdity.

The fact that this is such a big deal seems a bit hypocritical. There's no disgust at casually wiping out people like a rodent infestation but the moment sex is brought into the mix people make a big deal out of it.

 

[Scher]

It's ridiculous when taken out of context.

But in my post I related it to arguing for this particular mode and other modes like it to be "taken out".

And sorry, but complaining about things being PC/offensive/derogatory towards men or women/violence so they can be removed/change doesn't improve anything.

As we said earlier, where do we draw the line?

Then I apologize if that's not the point you meant to make.

I still disagree with part of what you say, though. Although demanding something be removed is a ridiculous proposition in and of itself, I don't believe it is an issue to argue something should be taken out on the basis that it offers nothing useful. Saying that something is out of place or doesn't belong is itself still criticism.

I don't think there is some impetus to have certain types of content restricted from use, but certain content will be an issue for certain people. Addressing those issues isn't so much drawing a line as it is saying what could be changed to make something better.

 

[Midou]

lol this sounds pretty fucked up even for a Suda51 game, and I have played like all of them.

I mean I can kind of understand the... idea... for this 'mode', and that Japanese culture would probably laugh this off, and I don't think it's meant to be purposefully offensive, they probably didn't think much of it.

 

[creationtheory]

This just in: Sexual persuites sexualized