I've just watched this video for a second time, and continue to be awed by how intellectually bankrupt it is. Its stance is philistine.
The mini-game is a problem solely because it's interactive: have the lead character ogling women in a cutscene, and suddenly you're playing a loathsome anti-hero. Directly implicate players in that same behaviour - to potentially fascinating ends - and all of a sudden it's fair game to strip Goichi Suda of creative relativity and dismiss the man as a pervert. It 's completely bereft of a curiosity about what videogames can exclusively achieve, and stands as a reminder that so much games writing is still about self-conscious posturing instead of actual analysis. Can you imagine making a video like this about a film or a book? Nobody would tolerate it.
I look forward to feeling uncomfortable while playing Killer is Dead - I'd expect nothing less from a confrontational tale about a degenerate scumbag - and will hopefully be continuously fascinated by a story in which I'm clearly not supposed to identify with its central character.
Hundreds of years of brilliant, enlightened art criticism makes this impromptu trip back to the dark ages all the more depressing . Can we give the creators of interactive entertainment the same grace and respect that we grant to the creators of non-interactive entertainment please? There's really no need to start at the beginning again.
So Matty, you didn't actually play Killer is Dead but instead watched a brief play-through by another person and felt this was sufficient for harsh critique of not only the game itself but also a public thrashing of it's director and fans?
Then again, I bet it is bloody difficult trying to play a video game yourself when your head is so far up your own arse.
I've just watched this video for a second time, and continue to be awed by how intellectually bankrupt it is. Its stance is philistine.
The mini-game is a problem solely because it's interactive: have the lead character ogling women in a cutscene, and suddenly you're playing a loathsome anti-hero. Directly implicate players in that same behaviour - to potentially fascinating ends - and all of a sudden it's fair game to strip Goichi Suda of creative relativity and dismiss the man as a pervert. It 's completely bereft of a curiosity about what videogames can exclusively achieve, and stands as a reminder that so much games writing is still about self-conscious posturing instead of actual analysis. Can you imagine making a video like this about a film or a book? Nobody would tolerate it.
I look forward to feeling uncomfortable while playing Killer is Dead - I'd expect nothing less from a confrontational tale about a degenerate scumbag - and will hopefully be continuously fascinated by a story in which I'm clearly not supposed to identify with its central character.
Hundreds of years of brilliant, enlightened art criticism makes this impromptu trip back to the dark ages all the more depressing . Can we give the creators of interactive entertainment the same grace and respect that we grant to the creators of non-interactive entertainment please? There's really no need to start at the beginning again.
My fantasy is wearing superman pajamas and hitting things with my ass.Yep. I have it on good authority that women fantasize about lolling about in thong underwear and hitting things with their asses.
I would seriously never expect that this would cause such an uproar.
It's like people don't know what kind of games Suda51 is making.
You already know the answer for that question.
And if you'd actually ask Sessler or Gies, they'd tell you how dead wrong you are and how right they are.
This is just how "gaming journalism" works. Don't you remember how Sessler addressed the audience after the backlash?
You misogynistic monster you.
My fantasy is wearing superman pajamas and hitting things with my ass.
the man of steel baby
ITT: White guys discuss women's issues because who else knows better than them
Why is it that the games that look like they could be the best ones of this year are attacked by the press for being sexist?
Could it be.... because they're sexist?
However we have seen time and time again that people take attacks on games they enjoyed as personal attacks and defend those games accordingly, especially niche/author games.
actually he specificly made it an attack on players of the game calling them umpteen insults, fap happy teens etc
That reviewer can fuck off into space too.
I've just watched this video for a second time, and continue to be awed by how intellectually bankrupt it is. Its stance is philistine.
The mini-game is a problem solely because it's interactive: have the lead character ogling women in a cutscene, and suddenly you're playing a loathsome anti-hero. Directly implicate players in that same behaviour - to potentially fascinating ends - and all of a sudden it's fair game to strip Goichi Suda of creative relativity and dismiss the man as a pervert. It 's completely bereft of a curiosity about what videogames can exclusively achieve, and stands as a reminder that so much games writing is still about self-conscious posturing instead of actual analysis. Can you imagine making a video like this about a film or a book? Nobody would tolerate it.
I look forward to feeling uncomfortable while playing Killer is Dead - I'd expect nothing less from a confrontational tale about a degenerate scumbag - and will hopefully be continuously fascinated by a story in which I'm clearly not supposed to identify with its central character.
Hundreds of years of brilliant, enlightened art criticism makes this impromptu trip back to the dark ages all the more depressing . Can we give the creators of interactive entertainment the same grace and respect that we grant to the creators of non-interactive entertainment please? There's really no need to start at the beginning again.
"You can enjoy problematic media. But please, acknowledge the problem."
Generally white men are the least capable of discussing these issues. That's why this thread is so full of shit!Not everyone in this thread is a white man.
Besides, the idea that only minorities can discuss minority issues is dumb. Doubly so considering the conversation in this thread was started by... a white man.
KiD and Dragon's Crown are the best examples of sexism in videogames? Really?
What's the deal with the pre-order X-ray glasses?
They allow you to see through everything?
If so, then that would be weird.
It's like in the anime community, there are people that are absolutely PISSED about the existence of Free! (a show featuring sexy teenage boys in a swimming club w/ plenty of fanservice, innuendo, and exploitative camera angles) - and it's absolutely hypocritical considering the vast portions of material that gets made every season featuring sexy and/or cute girls w/ fanservice, innuendo, and camera angles. STFU and let other people enjoy what they like - let another audience have a turn. It's not hurting you that it exists.
I will pop in here and ride this post into off topc, and say that, having lurked AnimeGAF, their response to Free basically boiled down to whogivesashit.gif, rolling eyes at the outrage and "well, it's something for DTL". Oh, and a spot-on parody of The Onion's parody of political cartoons. So, er, yeah.
I suppose an accelerating factor is that Free is by Kyoto Animation, who inspired the phrase "cute girls doing cute things". They have a niche, and Free isn't in it, so RAEG. It'll be a bit like the response to Platinum announcing they're doing a new Mario game, or something.
Agreed.I've just watched this video for a second time, and continue to be awed by how intellectually bankrupt it is. Its stance is philistine.
The mini-game is a problem solely because it's interactive: have the lead character ogling women in a cutscene, and suddenly you're playing a loathsome anti-hero. Directly implicate players in that same behaviour - to potentially fascinating ends - and all of a sudden it's fair game to strip Goichi Suda of creative relativity and dismiss the man as a pervert. It 's completely bereft of a curiosity about what videogames can exclusively achieve, and stands as a reminder that so much games writing is still about self-conscious posturing instead of actual analysis. Can you imagine making a video like this about a film or a book? Nobody would tolerate it.
I look forward to feeling uncomfortable while playing Killer is Dead - I'd expect nothing less from a confrontational tale about a degenerate scumbag - and will hopefully be continuously fascinated by a story in which I'm clearly not supposed to identify with its central character.
Hundreds of years of brilliant, enlightened art criticism makes this impromptu trip back to the dark ages all the more depressing . Can we give the creators of interactive entertainment the same grace and respect that we grant to the creators of non-interactive entertainment please? There's really no need to start at the beginning again.
Bullshit, it depends on the movie. No one is going to say that the sex in the American pie movies are "artsy." I haven't really heard people saying that Mass Effect is misogynistic, because of the sex scene's.Agreed.
Sex in movies and books? IT'S ARTSY.
Sex in videogames? You misogynistic asshole.
Agreed.
Sex in movies and books? IT'S ARTSY.
Sex in videogames? You misogynistic asshole.
Wesley Morris said:The divisiveness essentially came down to the movie's immersive depiction of the sex. There are four or five scenes of real, orgasmic sex one heterosexual, the rest lesbian. The enraptured find the whole thing beautiful and moving and deeply, powerfully true. They applaud the frankness, intimacy, and duration of the scenes. With France having recently and controversially legalized gay marriage, a few of the film's champions believe that this is the time for a representation of same-sex relationships. Some of these people swear they don't at all see two ripe femmes ramming their bodies into each other. They see to invoke the winner of last year's Palme d'Or amour.
The disenchanted think those people are full of shit.
For them, La Vie d'Adèle is exploitation masquerading as art. The girls are too ripe, the sex too porny, the bodies too Renaissance-y, the premise too bogus. For about 75 minutes, it's the story of the eponymous teenager growing into her sexuality, and it's stressful. But the stresses suddenly vanish, and all that appears to concern Kechiche is the fucking and having women listen to men talk about the female orgasm. And don't even get some of the eye-rollers started about the vapid understanding of the art. If you think the sex is bogus, wait until you see and hear people analyze Emma's paintings of the sex!
Generally white men are the least capable of discussing these issues. That's why this thread is so full of shit!
We're not an accurate microcosm of the wider anime watching populace just like NeoGAF isn't a good representation of what gamers overall are like.
We're rather more reasonable.
The Free backlash is a real thing is youtube comments are anything to judge by. And that there is a lot of latent homosexuality in the anime watching community.
The only counter-points that hold much salt with me are those related to cultural differences. There have been a bunch of really interesting points about this dotted throughout the thread, but I guess this once again all comes down to personal perspective. We have to accept some cultural differences, but there has to be a cut-off point too: As mentioned in an earlier post, you can't ignore the kind of behavior that happens in places like South Africa. If we socially accept all cultural differences, that means accepting babies being raped and kids with guns. Obviously I'm not suggesting that anyone outside of that culture would condone that behavior, but extremities such as this mean that we need to define a cut-off point, especially when not actually visiting that culture itself, and purely looking at imported material. I accept that this may be acceptable in Japan, but despite taking that into account, I have to ask myself if it's acceptable within my culture too. My answer in this case, is not really - no.
By the same merit, there's nothing you can do to get me to say that my opinion on Mondo Mode was 'wrong', even though the majority of people on this forum seem to disagree with me. I've admitted that a factual error may have been made - and I apologise for that.
Again, if this stance makes me your enemy, I will wear that badge with pride.
Youtube comments are bigoted in literally every circumstance though, I don't know if I'd judge a community by them
What if Suda now tweets: "It's with a heavy heart that we announce that Killer is Dead has been cancelled and is no longer in development. We apologize for the disappointment. Suck a dick. Choke on it."
This is something I've been mulling over for a while now."You can enjoy problematic media. But please, acknowledge the problem."
...in cases like KiD, it's not even the content itself, but rather its relation to the particular culture the game is being sold within at this particular point in time. (Hopefully 50 years from now we'll live in a society where no one would have any reason to be offended by romance mini-game featuring ogling and a super-simplified gift-giving mechanic.)If the world wasn't full of creeps and I could actually think of the last game I played with decent female representation that wasn't sexualized then I wouldn't have any problem with Gigolo mode, but that's unfortunately not the world we live in and it's not the world games like Killer Is Dead exist in.
This is something I've been mulling over for a while now.
I think placing warning text screens at the startup of games with sexist content, the same way as is done for some games where you engage in criminal behavior, could go a long way to making people feel better.
The wider internet is also bigoted in every circumstance so I think it's a pretty good indicator!
But right now it seems there is some kind of crusade going on that labels everything as sexist.
I mean in the first Anita-thread there were people trying to discuss that the spikes in the new Tomb Raider are phallic objects and when you die, Lara moans and... the imlications of that.
Then somehow strong female characters are now just called "Guys with boobs".
I dont wanna say there are games that are sexist, but different games for different peers. I somehow doubt females would really care if they either play DoA or Tekken, just because of the ways the females are shown in that.
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Another thing I noticed is, that Dragon Age also has these things. Get them presents, f*** them later. It just takes more time. Why wasnt there a big outcry because of that? Besides the sex-scenes and romantic-scenes in DA are even worse than what you can read in japanese hentai-visual novels...
I've just watched this video for a second time, and continue to be awed by how intellectually bankrupt it is. Its stance is philistine.
The mini-game is a problem solely because it's interactive: have the lead character ogling women in a cutscene, and suddenly you're playing a loathsome anti-hero. Directly implicate players in that same behaviour - to potentially fascinating ends - and all of a sudden it's fair game to strip Goichi Suda of creative relativity and dismiss the man as a pervert. It 's completely bereft of a curiosity about what videogames can exclusively achieve, and stands as a reminder that so much games writing is still about self-conscious posturing instead of actual analysis. Can you imagine making a video like this about a film or a book? Nobody would tolerate it.
I look forward to feeling uncomfortable while playing Killer is Dead - I'd expect nothing less from a confrontational tale about a degenerate scumbag - and will hopefully be continuously fascinated by a story in which I'm clearly not supposed to identify with its central character.
Hundreds of years of brilliant, enlightened art criticism makes this impromptu trip back to the dark ages all the more depressing . Can we give the creators of interactive entertainment the same grace and respect that we grant to the creators of non-interactive entertainment please? There's really no need to start at the beginning again.
I've admitted that I made a mistake about money being an item (I can't give you more information on why that is as I don't have access to the preview code at the moment) but I also maintain that this change in detail doesn't change the way I feel about the mode.
Matt Lee could be totally correct about all these things he's saying, but I'll still wait until I play the game before I pass any judgment. Suda 51's games pretty much always make a strong statement, and male sexuality (and also sexism) tends to be a recurring tool in that. Just look at how Sylvia's used in No More Heroes, and how her character's portrayal is used to say a lot more about Travis than about women in general.
People tend to look too much at the face of something and decide that "bad" things used at all make a game a "bad" thing, too. Sometimes seemingly sexist and juvenile content can be used to make an interesting and decidedly not-that-sexist point.
Depends on the movie. Those conversations happen, they're just as niche in their respective fields as this conversation is for games.
Or they're not even all that niche. Here's a quote from an article from Cannes about a French movie that happens to have a lot of sex in it, La Vie d'Adèle, Chapitres 1 & 2:
But somehow they manage to have these conversations every now and then without acting like the entire movie industry is getting torn to pieces by manchild directors or angry feminists.
......
WAT?
I love how for all this nonsense no one here has actually played the damn thing yet because it's not even out.
All this talk of context just goes flying right out the window until then honestly.
There's at least three people here who have played the game, and at least one of them multiple times.