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EDGE: "Power struggle: the real differences between PS4 and Xbox One performance"
- Thread starter Musiol
- Start date
Every GPU mem controller I'm the past 10 or so years will do texture swizzling for free the glorified DMA units Microsoft renamed dont do anything special really.
Also what does swizzling have to do with cache coherency I could see it having to do with better cache hit rate based off pretty much transposing the texture, but I fail to see the relevancy to cache coherency.
Here's an idea. Why not just ignore the thread?
Chobel
Member
I'm sorry, I didn't know you're being forced to see this thread.
dragonelite
Member
lol you think this will stop in a year or two. If all my years in gaming and visiting forums has learned me something this will not stop ever. People and buddies will always try to make you feel bad about purchasing decisions.
Rest assured it will not be irrelevant...
Yeah exactly. I never understood this logic either. I don't read most of the threads here, simply because I have no interest in the topic. That would be like me going into those threads and saying, "um I'm not interested in this so can you please stop talking about it?"
The solution is simple, avoid threads that you have no interest in or that annoy you.
Swizzling the textures into tiles brings the rows above and below into spacial coherency. Having the rows in cache lines means you get cache coherency. It's a different type of coherency to the type hUMA provides. Another overloaded term.
You can also have temporal cache coherency.
Are you talking about vector element swizzling? That's a different type of swizzling.
BleachAndPepsi
Banned
Ad Hominem is attacking the person rather than the point he made. Even if every other word a person has ever spoken in the past has been a complete lie, it doesn't mean the next thing out of his mouth will be a lie. Attack his points, not him. Prove him wrong. Show me devs who have actually worked on the two consoles who refute what the devs he quotes have said. Otherwise, it's grasping at straws.
But that coherency isnt a problem for the GPU as its backed by a shared l2 cache so everything is coherent in l2 regardless of orientation.
They will swizzle a whole bunch of things including textures, here's a hint, GCN cards usually have 2 DMA controllers the XBONE has how many DME's that can swizzle ? It should tell you what they are.
Oppo
Member
BleachAndPepsi
Banned
Even more annoying? People popping up in threads they're obviously not interested in just to tell everyone how not interested they are.
This is going to keep going.
I expect Microsoft to start resorting to direct parody ads like what they are doing with Windows Mobile - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20LgureMuWo
It's their style.
I'm not talking about hUMA style coherence. I'm talking about spatial coherence.
http://www.realtimerendering.com/blog/exploiting-temporal-and-spatial-coherence/
I'm also not talking about swizzle operators, I'm talking about tiling.
http://fgiesen.wordpress.com/2011/01/17/texture-tiling-and-swizzling/
BleachAndPepsi
Banned
How fucking disgusting. Even if you hate Apple, it's sick to use a stand-in for their dead founder in a shitty parody.
Kazuma Kiryu
Member
We know, you already said it in another thread.
The most annoying thing however? Posts like yours.
Xbox One's audio chip is almost certainly better because it has to deal with Kinect audio processing and outputting 5.1 audio to multiple controllers. PS4 doesn't do those things so it won't require the muscle needed for those. It's probably less capable overall but when you factor in the reserve for those aspects the gaming performance will likely be quite similar.
They all do tiling too. It's nothing new nor special.
You're going to be disappointed in 1-2 years. That's when 3rd parties start to get a handle on the new hardware and start to push it harder.
So a GPU on the market at the moment can memcpy between two locations and tile the output?
cyberheater
PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
Keep spreading the FUD and try reading the article again. He said he hadn't done benchmarking on them.
He clearly has got both dev kits and said he can't go into specifics due to NDA
To dismiss his opinion is idiotic.
Hang on what was that bad taste thing? You're not telling me that's an official MS ad are you?
BakedSardine
Banned
The first time this is obvious, those devs will receive tremendous blowback - but chances are we aren't getting to that point for a couple years. And by then, it could be irrelevant from a sales standpoint.
http://twitter.com/crecenteb/status/378852680514289664
It is official but it was since withdrawn.
I fully expect Microsoft to do everything in their marketing power to try to gain an advantage over their competitors. Muddy PR statements, money changing hands to downgrade rival versions is all free game to them.
Garrett 2U
Member
Terrible, awful advertisement. It wasn't even remotely funny.
Yep it is. Official video got pulled after hours of negative feedback.
ThoughtsOfSpeaking
Banned
So is the posting by juniors with less than 20 posts to their name, but just have to defend microsoft in each and every one. Good damn man, is there nothing else here that interests you?
RobotRocker
Member
Well I gave you Kojima which you handwaved away and you made up that Carmack didn't touch the kit (Which as pointed out, he has got his hands on. Just not benchmarked or did further work on yet) so I already stated my case on developers saying there's not that much difference. His points have been well attacked and he has questionable credibility based on previous articles which you have tried to handwave away with "Ad Hominem" when credibility counts massively on articles with anonymous sourcing.
I'm going to put this article down to yet another ridiculous case of telephone in the dev community because there simply is no clear answers being found. Just stirring up more fanboy wars.
Dude, the numbers are right there in front of you. I don't know what's so hard to believe. Of course Kojima isn't going to say there's a big difference when he just had MGSV at the Microsoft conference.
The numbers. Look into them. They represent a 40% to 50% advantage in GPU power for the PS4 so it really isn't surprising when anonymous devs confirm that. And that doesn't even account for the customizations Sony made to give it an even further advantage. We know the details of each system. There is no secret sauce/wizard jizz in the Xbox One design that closes the gap in any meaningful way. But by all means feel free to prove us wrong if you know something. I can assure you that if the performance gap were false, MS would tell us why in detail. But nope, lol we made directx.
thunder_snail
Member
Why would yo want to tile the output?
Basically, this.
was watching a DX11.2 video and came to the theory that the Esram in the Xbox1 will be used to store a tiled resources file.
Tiled resources on that needs a 16mb file that can stream textures from files as big as 10gb mostly likely stored on the HD/disc
and eSram is dedicated to the GPU and low latency, it is perfect for that,
Thats not to say GDDR5 cant do tiled resources too since it supports Dx11.2 but the latency is slightly higher, but I dunno how tolerant it is - im sure it can work fine.
So obviously there is massive amounts of bandwidth available in high quanlity on 8GB GDDR5, but esram using tiled resources is possible their solution, it can STREAM the large texture data to a 16mb file that basically increases the detail in your POV the closer you get to the object.
This is likely a pain in the ass to develope with, but there is a software you add to your game called granite that can handle most of the code for you, its up to the devs to implement and work with it.
What I dont understand is, how can they get a frame buffer in for 1080p AA alongside it considering the eSram is SMALL - they should have went with atleast 64mb surely.
Tiled resources on that needs a 16mb file that can stream textures from files as big as 10gb mostly likely stored on the HD/disc
and eSram is dedicated to the GPU and low latency, it is perfect for that,
Thats not to say GDDR5 cant do tiled resources too since it supports Dx11.2 but the latency is slightly higher, but I dunno how tolerant it is - im sure it can work fine.
So obviously there is massive amounts of bandwidth available in high quanlity on 8GB GDDR5, but esram using tiled resources is possible their solution, it can STREAM the large texture data to a 16mb file that basically increases the detail in your POV the closer you get to the object.
This is likely a pain in the ass to develope with, but there is a software you add to your game called granite that can handle most of the code for you, its up to the devs to implement and work with it.
What I dont understand is, how can they get a frame buffer in for 1080p AA alongside it considering the eSram is SMALL - they should have went with atleast 64mb surely.
Oh, wow. Microsoft's PR really is the worst, isn't it?
Well it's a good the PS4 is the most powerful console and the cheapest
Who cares about the price? If you must have only ONE console, if you are not choosing because of the game line up then your priorities are off. IMO of course.
The only reason I am getting both consoles is because they both have game series that I like that I can not get on pc.
RobotRocker
Member
I never said anything about the numbers. I know about the numbers since you can't avoid them as they have been shoved into peoples faces constantly since E3. I questioned the credibility of the article using anonymous sources when there are statements to the contrary and the author had been making FUD with anonymous sources before so that the credibility of the article was in question. Being told "BUT LOOK AT NUMBERS. THERE IS A 141 2/3rd PERCENT CHANCE OF WINNING. THE NUMBERS DONT LIE" doesn't answer my doubts on the credibility of the article.
thunder_snail
Member
So it's handled by the driver and need explicit work by the programmer for special cases. Isn't move-engine fixed function so it's got very limited way of rearranging texels? Also wouldn't doing memcpy (ram->move engine->ram) be really expensive for a bandwidth starved system?
All MS servers are first and foremost there to service their enterpise users. Xbox division [when is not loosing money] is earning ~2% of total profits for MS. They are insignificant, and if Xbox division ever threatened Windows, Office or Enterprise business, MS would destroy it [or sell it] in a instance.
And off course, cloud cannot help rendering in the games. It can run secondary apps that can manage MP servers, leaderboards, stats, and some secondary AI states. Nothing on your screen will look "better" because of the cloud.
Chobel
Member
The magic word "IMO". Thank God there are other opinions which are not yours.
MrPresident
Banned
So all of that is suppose to make the xbones cloud infrastructure not exist or mean anything?
I'm almost expecting to hear a lot about dying PS4's in the days after it launches. Microsoft PR has been pretty scummy recently, I wouldn't put it past them.
BleachAndPepsi
Banned
It's idiotic to take his word over loads of other devs who are working on games for both pieces of hardware who say otherwise? Whatever floats your boat. Seems to me you're clutching at one single tiny lifeline while drowning in a deluge of evidence to the contrary.
Tim Cook does not have black hair, isn't sickly-thin, isn't balding, and isn't known for wearing black shirts.
cyberheater
PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
And now Sony fanboys are bringing pulled phone parody adds into this thread to shit on MS some more.
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