Almost every gameplay comparison (showing what amounts to a full race) I've seen between Forza 6 and GTS hasn't exactly been flattering to GTS. The quoted race was a particularly stark comparison. The replay camerawork in GTS is some of the best out there, but in terms of actual in-game detail, I'm surprised how the older game holds up. The video is worth watching if people are curious (they match the sections like-for-like pretty well).
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Next-gen Racing Graphics Face-off | (Next-gen means current-gen)
- Thread starter Gestault
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Almost every gameplay comparison (showing what amounts to a full race) I've seen between Forza 6 and GTS hasn't exactly been flattering to GTS. The quoted race was a particularly stark comparison. The replay camerawork in GTS is some of the best out there, but in terms of actual in-game detail, I'm surprised how the older game holds up. The video is worth watching if people are curious (they match the sections like-for-like pretty well).
icecold1983
Member
Project cars looks straight up bad to me
That track, visually, has always stood out to me as one of the weaker environments in PC1. GTS starting with 1.07 has been a real looker there.
icecold1983
Member
I'd never put PC1 near the top of my personal running for visuals (meaning I'm partially agreeing), but I also own/play it. Of the 30-ish tracks, a lot show nicely.
icecold1983
Member
almost looks like something ripped out of flight sim x
TheAdmiester
Member
From looking at pics of the real Willow Springs, pCARS is more accurate in terms of road textures and ground decoration. GT seems to have the edge in texture resolution but that's to be expected from an exclusive game that's 2+ years newer. The colours of the sand around the area seems to be accurate in both games, it seems that the real track is darker or lighter depending on (I assume) time of year.
I didn't really want to jump into that exchange too much, but while I think GTS gives a waay better "impression" of that track, those particular comparisons, if anything, made PC1 look better. One of these surfaces looks decently realistic, the other more "gamey":
Risk Breaker
Member
[/IMG]
If GT:S had mountains like that it would be compared to a PS2 game, lol.
MilkyJoe
Member
I'm not comparing it with PC
DirgeExtinction
Member
Speaking of which, is the engine used for DC owned by Sony? Or can Rushy and his team use it?
Dictator93
Member
I didn't really want to jump into that exchange too much, but while I think GTS gives a waay better "impression" of that track, those particular comparisons, if anything, made PC1 look better. One of these surfaces looks decently realistic, the other more "gamey":
I think the top image is something I prefer in terms of an art-flow perspective. It appears to have a lot less information drawn into the diffuse texture, which is more physically correct IMO and better for dynamic lighting and is not perspective-dependent. Although, the translation between texture layers in the bottom one is better.
Yeah, the top texture I prefer in motion (obviously not visible in the screen-shot), even if the overall material transitions and variation is better in the lower.
onemanasylum
Banned
I asked here...I am not looking for any particular answer was curious. No need for the silly response.
Yeah because that's what i was referencing..lol. yikes. You literally just proved my point. What a defensive response for such a simple question.
I'm defining it for you, nobody else. Not sure how you got 'fully dynamic' or 'full dynamics' to mean only one part being dynamic.So now you're going to clearly define the term to be debated? Good, if a little late
I responded to your post once, each time, addressing the points you raised - platform dependancies, features and lighting - yet you still want to go hell-for-leather.
I stand by what I said. Turn 10 are developing on PC as the primary format. The game is running on XBOX ONE X hardware. Turn 10 still haven't confirmed full dynamics. Turn 10 still don't have a lighting solution on par with Polyphony Digital.
Yes, it is different approach but still, one clearly looks better than the other. There are games in other genres that have a better lighting engine. Even though Forza Motorsport 7 is an improvement I just don't know when Turn 10 will step it up enough to compete.You're conflating something objective with subjective terms. "Organic" and "natural." These aren't settings in a lighting engine that T10 forgot to turn on. And acting like one studio should be able to achieve the "look" of another studios product just because they have stronger hardware makes no sense in this case. If it is a particular aesthetic that PD had been able to achieve for the last 2 generations (as you affirm with their 'always organic look'), you should (and obviously do) understand it has nothing to do with how powerful said hardware is. Rather it is, at best, different approaches, and does not diminish the skill of one studio or the other.
Edit: and noobcraft already clarified why Horizon doesn't really apply in this case
I always feel Turn 10's solution is forced whereas Polyphony Digital's solution has naturally earthy tones. You shouldn't be surprised about this though considering Kaz's main hobby is photography. He's been a photographer since he was a little boy with his father and that experience comes through the Gran Turismo lens. The colour palette is better suited and the lighting engine enhances the effect. Also consider the bleeding-edge HDR standard Kaz is using. It's going to be quite a bit ahead of anything, never mind Forza Motorsport 7.
I know this isn't Forza (it's Project CARS) but you get the idea. One looks way more organic, natural and real than the other.
That's a pretty condescending tone from a moderator, especially from one that introduced the subject of TV's to the conversation in the first place. If it was a quip, then fair enough but to use your own words
; )
It is speculation, only because Turn 10 seem unable to confirm it is dynamic. Why would they not confirm Forza Motorsport 7 is fully dynamic?
It is inferior. It's not as technically advanced. Cheating 'states' looks horrid. As you suggested see Horizon Zero Dawn, because it looks poor there too. Daytime Horizon Zero Dawn looks amazing, by night it's all about the horrid green gaze of night. Night-vision googles everywhere. Yuk. Transitions are awful across the board in that game. Forza Motorsport 7 could transition between baked states a lot better though.
It may not diminish the final product because it could still be a good game to play plus the lighting here looks better than previous Forza Motorsport's.
Baked up to Gran Turismo 4. Gran Turismo 5 and Gran Turismo 6 are fully dynamic. In Gran Turismo 5 you can change the time of day and how quick time passes. You can set the weather at the start of a race (wet and sunny, for example) and how often it changes over time. It's systems are completely dynamic.
Your right, I do prefer Gran Turismo's look more than most games because it's lighting technology is leading the industry.
This thread is here for a reason. A good one too. We are having this discussion in this thread because this is the only genre you can clearly compare like-for-like. Developer interpretations will differ but at the end of the day, in a genre heading towards photorealism quicker than any other utilising generally the same content (cars and circuits), it's the best place to observe from.
That is a genuine question. A 3rd party trumping both 1st party studios. It's an alarming fact.
1. Gran Turismo 5 did lock full dynamics to particular circuits. Still fully dynamic on the biggest circuits in the game. Time-of-day is first class. Weather can be first-class...it's the low-resolution spray that's the kicker. The rest if gravy.
2. XBOX ONE X will be a target platform but the game is being built on PC for PC too. It should be fully featured...but yeah parity, maybe?
3. For sure, Forza Horizon 3 can enable full dynamics more freely...but it looks amazing and it's displaying an open-world.
Does Forza Motorsport 7 have dynamic weather at all circuits?
AirPowerFTW
Member
Yet it is with the same graphics engine .. the magic of camera angles
Edit
On the official GT sport page they say this:
The level of detail of cars and circuits may not be perceptible in classic gameplay, but it will give incredible credibility to the replays and snapshots of Photo mode..
http://www.gran-turismo.com/ch-fr/products/gtsport/graphics/
Context is important here, the quote from dumb was an accurate but literal translation from the French version of the GTS webpage:
Le niveau de détail des voitures et des circuits ne sera peut-être pas perceptible dans le gameplay classique, mais il donnera aux rediffusions et aux clichés du mode Photo une incroyable crédibilité.
Meanwhile, the English version paints a different picture:
Huge strides have also been made in landscape expressions. See each and every leaf on a tree as it sways in the wind. Weather, time and the age of the tree are considered when reproducing it in the game, right down to its bark. Even the asphalt possesses unique characters, regarding its size, grain and distribution of the asphalt surface. Thanks to advanced data capturing and the perceptional talents of the artists, Gran Turismo approaches landscape reproduction from every aspect.
While you may not notice the level of detail in the cars and tracks while driving in normal gameplay, you will see it in replays and in Photo Mode where you can study the images up close.
Effectively what they are saying is that they put more detail in that necessary for gameplay where you are flying past the trackside detail at speed, but when you stop to smell the roses you'll appreciate the effort. Whether you believe the rhetoric is another story, but it's not as confusing a message when you read the proper English translation (no offense dumb).
Tripolygon
Banned
Do you two lack the capabiliy to comprehend?
All that statement says is you will never be able to perceive the level of detail that is put into the tracks and cars while actively playing the game but the replay allows different camera angles that allow these details to be seen. Think about Driveclub for instance, it has some of the most detailed environment and cars, but you can't really fully appreciate it while driving but if you go into Driveclub photomode thread you will see some things you wouldn't believe are in the game because people have found ways to use and exploit photomode to reveal these details.
Edit: already beaten above.
I'd recommend dialing it back a bit, with the way you're insisting on carrying on that argument. Not re: the actual topic bits, but you're pretty deep into an old back-and-forth that seemed to be settled.
I think T10 and PD have very different priority for Forza Motorsport and Gran Turismo. Any graphics superiority need to be taken in context with resolution and frame rate as there will be trade-offs.
T10 wants FM to be 60 fps locked, no drop, no screen tearing so they *had* to sacrifice something like dynamic lighting and dynamic weather to achieve that goal. PD wants beautiful graphics so GT games have unlocked frame rate that vary depending on resolution, number of cars on track, and dynamic lighting and dynamic weather. For example, GT5 ran around 40-50 fps with screen tearing. Source: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-gran-turismo-5-tech-analysis?page=3)
And this same trade-off was made with Gran Turismo Sports where PD *removed* dynamic lighting and dynamic weather to achieve the 1080p at lock 60 fps. Source: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...sport-ditches-one-of-the-series-best-features
When your frame rate is 30 fps lock or variable and allow screen tearing, then you have more leeway with your visual quality. This was very evident with DriveClub running at 30 fps with full dynamic lighting and weather. Forza Horizon 3 did the same thing at 30 fps *and* open-world.
IMO, any perceived inferiority or superiority is just priority and philosophy of the individual developing team: lock frame rate @ 60 fps with ok graphics or variable frame rate + screen tearing with better graphics?
Sebmugi
Member
No prob AirPowerFTW My level in english makes me dumb without me want it XD
I have good chosen my nickname for a site in English
I agree that since this generation of console, with the example of driveclub, it is necessary to have a free camera (or photo mode) to really realize the work of graphic designers and the many details added .. (It also works in other kinds of games .. even if we go slower)
I would like PD to make a "quiet ride mode" in 30 fps with crazy shaders Or other joyfulness ^^ Just for working with photo mode ..
Edit
The catches of willows spring used for the comparison with PC1 are from vrsion 1.06 it seems to me .. In any case not from version 1.07
My level in english makes me dumb without me want it XD I have good chosen my nickname for a site in English
I agree that since this generation of console, with the example of driveclub, it is necessary to have a free camera (or photo mode) to really realize the work of graphic designers and the many details added ..
(It also works in other kinds of games .. even if we go slower)I would like PD to make a "quiet ride mode" in 30 fps with crazy shaders Or other joyfulness ^^ Just for working with photo mode ..
Edit
The catches of willows spring used for the comparison with PC1 are from vrsion 1.06 it seems to me .. In any case not from version 1.07
Maybe.
For me, it has to be one of those two cases:
* If they are putting so much detail in environment but it can't be seen in gameplay, they are spending resources unnecessarily that could be dedicated to things that would be noticed. It's a mistake.
* If they are showing so much detail in evironment during replays that is in fact not present during gameplay, their replays are not representative of what you can find in gameplay. It's misleading.
Knowing the regular PS4 renders replays at 30 fps instead of 60 fps, I guess if there are something more than motion blur added in replays.
MilkyJoe
Member
Because it was replay footage not gameplay, and doesn't look leagues ahead of anything.
Tripolygon
Banned
WTF are you talking about? This has nothing to do with marketing or advertising, it has to do with the effort the developers put into making an authentic believable racing game given the technology of today. It has nothing to do with what they are showing or not showing, it has more to do with human perception and how blind we are when it comes to peripheral vision and our inablity to focus on multiple things at the same time plus we are zipping past them at high speeds. This also applies to other racers as well. Everyting is present during gameplay but you just don't notice it.
This is driveclub, you can never really fully appreciate the detail that is put into it while driving
I have driven these roads many times but never really noticed the train sitting there as well as other things that are placed around the roads.
The rainbow effect you might not notice during gameplay but you certainly see it during photomode, or the sspom in the cobble stones.
You would never notice during gameplay the fact that the reflections in raindrop appear upside down like in real life but you do during photomode.
Pull up photomode in Forza 6 and Horizon 3 or any racer and you will see details in the game you won't notice during gameplay. It has nothing to do with prioritizing, the people modeling the tracks and cars are not the same people doing the programming or designing the UI or doing the sound design etc. But no it is not misleading to bump up image quality during replays more than gameplays. It is standard practice, cutscenes tend to look better than gameplay in some games.
Apex
Member
Wider camera angles and aerial shots, specially with many cars at once, take a big performance hit. It was one of the causes to explain the 30fps in PS3 GTs instead of the 60fps of PS2 where those cameras don't exist and the number of cars was limited to six. Also, the antialiasing traditionally does increases a point or two in the replays.
Brand new engine
It's highly unlikely I'm afraid. There is no dev-team at Sony on DC anymore, and we're busy working on something new.Rushy, what can we do for you guys to patch DC on the PRO, can you make a call? and say the internet is clamoring for it?
It's the same as in Forza or any other racer.
It would be nice that there is a random localization of lightning a bit like that of DC <3
source fresh 1080p home capture
https://youtu.be/LOvF_flZsZk
Quoting my boy and undisputed king Driveclub.
What an amazing title.
I wanna see team evo also pulling cross network play for their next title.
Fortinbras
Member
Awesome. Can't wait for the reveal.Brand new engine
Tripolygon
Banned
Congrats Rushy on your new Project, Driveclub still remains my go to racer when i don't feel like playing intense games. The visual splendor is a treat to the eyes and i look forward to your next project.Brand new engine
It's highly unlikely I'm afraid. There is no dev-team at Sony on DC anymore, and we're busy working on something new.
On a different note, maybe Sony should hire Durante to fix our Pro issues.
thelastword
Banned
Ahhh ok, so I guess the only option left is for Sony to hire Bluepoint, Hexadrive or RAD to do it with maybe you giving some input to them in the process. Ehh..., how long do you estimate a nice comprehensive pro patch of DC would take, 2 weeks, 1 month? I think it would be worth it tbh...
Also can't wait to see what you guys bring to the table with your next project.
I think this is not a fact, it is an opinion.
When I drive at high speeds on the freeway I can not see the ants that live in the grass next to the road, that's right. But if I had to represent the scene for a game using limited resources, allocating resources to those ants would seem like a mistake.
Much of the problem of image quality in Driveclub lies in how uncompensated is the temporal and screen resolution with the density of details that the game has. And that decompensation is responsible for the great effect that their gifs always cause.
It's a game what we are talking about here. Not a scene simulation.
You don't need high quality grass blade textures if your final composition will have so low quality motion blur and reduced framerate that grass will be invisible. You don't need high detail leaves in your trees if the low quality motion blur will produce artifacts for every detail. You have parallax in a few cobble textures but you can't use it for the sinkings on the road. Same for high resolution parallax self shadows if your main shadow map is low res for the player car.
Most of those cases are clear in this gameplay screenshot. (click for full res)
It will appear fantastic in an animated gif, but is annoying during gameplay. Can you see the metal fence texture on the left? The grass blades on the right? The tree leaves? The alphalt detail? Road sinking?
I hope you can understand that's only my opinion, too.
The top one is actually 2005
2007.
I want a new PGR so bad, too bad Bizarre is long gone, but that's why FH is so good!
Terbinator
Member
The top one is actually 2005
I want a new PGR so bad, too bad Bizarre is long gone, but that's why FH is so good!
Eh? The UI is definitely that of PGR4.
JehutyRunner
Banned
The top one is actually 2005
I want a new PGR so bad, too bad Bizarre is long gone, but that's why FH is so good!
Nope. The UI is that of PGR4.
Terbinator
Member
So photo mode filtered up the eye balls in an unrealistic scenario is real now?
blastprocessor
The Amiga Brotherhood
Sony
Nintendo
Unbeaten in terms of what? It's art style comes closest to realism imo but by no means does it make it have the best graphics.
Halo 4 looks decent in the MCC at 1080p. I wish we would get a 1080p PGR4
transformer
Member
Perhaps this is not a popular opinion here, but I think the gameplay graphics are what really matters. I was actually quite disappointed when I finally got to play driveclub after seeing all the gifs and photos here. I had to check that the PS4 was actually outputting 1080p which it was. Not that the graphics were bad, they were actually quite good, but nothing on the level I was expecting given the representation here. The same holds for any other racer where photo mode, replay, and/or compressed gifs are being used to show it off. These methods will make it look far better than during actual gameplay.
Spukc
always chasing the next thrill
purely talking about the light in this game it looks real,Unbeaten in terms of what? It's art style comes closest to realism imo but by no means does it make it have the best graphics.
Halo 4 looks decent in the MCC at 1080p. I wish we would get a 1080p PGR4
i am 100% sure other racers might have more poly's etc,
But man driveclub is still the only race game that really looks real.
Again the driving physics are poor! i am only talking about the looks of the game
LukasTaves
Member
Also, I belive pgr3 doesn't have rain.
I didn't think there was need to for this tit-for-tat in the first place. I'm just responding, not initiating, which I have a right to do.
I completely agree but it just strikes me as being odd that neither developers is capable of full dynamics on either PC, XBOXN ONE X or PlayStation Pro. One can only assume it's down to 'parity', which would make more sense than not being able to do it at all. At least Forza Motorsport 7 players are getting a carrot whereas considering Gran Turismo had full-dynamics since the 5th full entry it's mightily frustrating the seeds are still soiled. It's just that carrot tells me there's more to it than parity.
Dan's said years ago, before the release of Gran Turismo 5, it's too much work to get dynamic day to night and weather to work and they are still not doing it...on PC. People seemed to be more excited for stickers! Honestly, I don't get that.
I'm still interested to know if Forza Motorsport 7 has dynamic weather on all circuits and how 'dynamic' is it? We've seen a thunderstorm but one would assume there are other pre-sets, like light rain, heavy rain, fog etc... it can cycle through or fall back to, much like Gran Turismo 5 and, more extensively, Project CARS.
Whatever it is you are working on I really, really hope it's as amazing as the Driveclub engine. Don't hold back!Brand new engine
It's highly unlikely I'm afraid. There is no dev-team at Sony on DC anymore, and we're busy working on something new.
1.21Gigawatts
Banned
If DC would get a Pro Patch to fix its image quality it would be king for me.