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I think the DualShock 4 has more input lag wired than wireless.

N

noodalls

Member
And by a not inconsiderable margin.

Inspired by posts such as this
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=227859308&postcount=6
EmiPrime said:
I think future input lag tests should use wired controllers.
Click to expand...

I've decided to create a thread specifically about this. With the release of the new DS4 with its USB option, most (all?) people assumed that input lag would be reduced, e.g. see this article http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...e-specs-new-controller-and-everything-we-know

It'll also transfer data over USB when plugged into the PS4, reducing the very slight Bluetooth lag seen in the launch controller. This feature isn't exclusive to new PS4 models - it'll also work if you plug the new controller into a launch PS4 also.
Click to expand...

Now, so far as I can find, no one has actually tested this. Except me.

One of the threads that I found very interesting was this one
http://forums.shoryuken.com/discuss...stick-input-lag-testing-results-thread#latest
which compared the input lag for various different sticks/pads for fighting games. I went about developing my own method for analysing input lag, which I can go into (significant) detail about, but the summary is, it uses an arduino to send an input to a controller(s), and at the same time it watermarks the screen (by removing colour, hence the fluoro lighting in the video in this post. Capturing this provides a very accurate way to determine input lag.

On going through various different controllers, one of the things that surprised me was how slow the wired DS4 was. If you look here https://twitter.com/noodalls/status/816578228676534273 (sorry for using twitter, but I find it is an easy way to upload images) the DS4 wired is some 7-10ms slower than the DS4 wireless.

Now, you could take my word for it, but instead I'll post a video which should hopefully demonstrate it. As I mentioned, you're going to have to ignore the fluoro lighting, it does serve a very important function, but you'll have to just accept it for now.

https://youtu.be/37Fzlepx61I

Now, if you watch this video in HD (720p60) you should be able to advance frame by frame (using the , and . keys). Skip ahead to 0:20, and advance from there. When you get a green bar on the screen (happens every 24 frames), this is when the input has physically occurred. If you advance three frames from there, you will see P1 (red, wireless) duck, and P2 (blue, wired) still standing. If you advance one further frame P2 will duck. What is happening is that the wired DS4 is lagging behind the wireless DS4. If you can't do that, just look at these two tweets,
https://twitter.com/noodalls/status/818183739897327616
https://twitter.com/noodalls/status/818184123948744704
(deleted old tweets with incorrect text, uploaded same images with correct text)
as they show the same thing.

I have tested this on at least three separate occasions, with consistent results each time.

Any thoughts? Has anyone else tested this? Given they differ by about half a frame, it shouldn't be too hard for someone to either corroborate all of the above.
 
E

Equanimity

Member
That's strange. I don't have the necessary parts to test for myself but I hope it's not the case if I ever decide to get one of those officially licensed controllers.
 
B

benny_a

extra source of jiggaflops
I'm confused by the results.

But maybe I also don't quite understand your methodology.

At 0:41 and 0:45 Player 2 (wired) ducks but Player 1 (wireless) doesn't duck at all.

Wouldn't lag mean that the player character ducks later, not that he doesn't duck at all?

And of course the same in reverse.
 
Kudo

Kudo

Member
Yeah, DS4Windows shows better input delay numbers for wireless too, wired is consistent 3.3ms iirc? Not that I'd personally notice the difference, but looks like some people do.
 
LordRaptor

LordRaptor

Member
Equanimity said:
That's usually the case between wired and wireless controllers, no?
Click to expand...

No, wired is traditionally lag free as theres no encrypt -> broadcast -> decrypt stage that wireless has.

Its why wired controllers are prefered at fighting tournaments, even beyond any 'run out of battery mid match' or 'interference from other signals' issues.
 
E

Equanimity

Member
LordRaptor said:
No, wired is traditionally lag free as theres no encrypt -> broadcast -> decrypt stage that wireless has.

Its why wired controllers are prefered at fighting tournaments, even beyond any 'run out of battery mid match' or 'interference from other signals' issues.
Click to expand...

Yeah I misread the OP, my bad.

Thanks for the info :)
 
N

noodalls

Member
benny_a said:
I'm confused by the results.

But maybe I also don't quite understand your methodology.

At 0:41 and 0:45 Player 2 (wired) ducks but Player 1 (wireless) doesn't duck at all.

Wouldn't lag mean that the player character ducks later, not that he doesn't duck at all?

And of course the same in reverse.
Click to expand...

The instances where one character doesn't duck are not what this test is about. What you said is correct, lag makes one character duck a frame later at around the 0:20 mark and onwards for a while from there.
 
B

benny_a

extra source of jiggaflops
noodalls said:
The instances where one character doesn't duck are not what this test is about. What you said is correct, lag makes one character duck a frame later at around the 0:20 mark and onwards for a while from there.
Click to expand...
So that ducking doesn't happen at all doesn't give you any pause?
 
T

Three

Member
I'd like to know more about your method. What does the light do? The twitter post has left and right mixed up, right?
 
E

EvB

Member
noodalls said:
The instances where one character doesn't duck are not what this test is about. What you said is correct, lag makes one character duck a frame later at around the 0:20 mark and onwards for a while from there.
Click to expand...

Is the Green flash player one's input and the purple flash P2?
 
J

JP

Member
I'm not suggesting you're wrong but without you detailing the specifics of how you are doing this, it doesn't really mean anything. How are you getting instances of nothing at all happening on screen on some occasions? Why are these occasions being ignored? What setup are you using to do this test?

Again, I'm not in any way that you're wrong but if you are claiming that this is an objective rather than subjective test, then questions like this need to be answered before what you are claiming to be objective can be seen as such.
 
Hairsplash

Hairsplash

Member
Even with the usb mode enabled on the ps4pro, there is something odd with the controller... because it does seem less laggy when wireless.

And my sony set has 60ms display input lag... (measured using the timer method, and the 240hz slowmo mode of the ipad pro9.7)
So you would think that i should not be able to discern any difference...
 
E

EnergizerFellow

Member
Any reason why somebody hasn't done the seemingly obvious thing and bought a hardware USB protocol analyzer for proper bench testing? Nicer ones have ns-level timing accuracy and trigger in/out explicitly for things like triggering button inputs.

http://www.totalphase.com/products/beagle-usb480/
http://www.totalphase.com/products/beagle-usb480-power-ultimate/

Enough people should be interested to chip in $5-10+/ea at GoFundMe to buy one and have people send in a bunch or hardware for testing.
 
N

noodalls

Member
JP said:
I'm not suggesting you're wrong but without you detailing the specifics of how you are doing this, it doesn't really mean anything. How are you getting instances of nothing at all happening on screen on some occasions? Why are these occasions being ignored? What setup are you using to do this test?

Again, I'm not in any way that you're wrong but if you are claiming that this is an objective rather than subjective test, then questions like this need to be answered before what you are claiming to be objective can be seen as such.
Click to expand...

The setup is quite complicated, but I am happy to explain it. If you look at my twitter profile you can see some of the hardware involved. Basically, what I have is the HDMI output converted to a component signal. Then, I run the red and blue parts of this signal through two optocouplers. These are connected to the arduino. Two further optocouplers are also connected to buttons on joysticks. The result of this is that I can send a signal to the buttons to turn on, and at the same time cause the transmission of selected components (red or blue) of the signal to turn off, resulting in a watermark on the screen, which can be analysed later.

Now, the setup that I ran was triggering each button for 17ms, although you can vary this length of time. The green flash is where both buttons are triggered, the purple flash is not the second input, but seems to be more of a hangover or rebound when the signal is allowed to flow again.

The reason I am not too interested in the times the dropped inputs have occurred is by my interpretation this is where, despite the input lasting for 17ms, it has missed being read by the game. This I believe happens because the polling window does not appear to be fixed, but can vary frame by frame. The opposite can happen as well, where I've had input windows as short at 15 or perhaps 14ms being read as a button being held for two frames.

The twitter post is indeed back to front, it was getting to midnight when I posted, and I got it the wrong way around. I will edit and fix that.
 
Danny Dudekisser

Danny Dudekisser

I paid good money for this Dynex!
I didn't do anything particularly scientific, but USB wired has felt waaaaay more responsive than bluetooth did, on my Pro at least. Even the camera control in games like TLOU and Bloodborne feels way more responsive. So... I dunno, man. But I'm curious to learn more.
 
M

Moral Panic

Member
Some more things to test if you have time.

1) Does it matter which one is Player 1
2) What happens with 3 usb and 1 bt
3) What happens with 3 bt and 1 usb
4) Does the uSB port matter
5) Does it matter if it is an OG/Slim/Pro
 
AgentP

AgentP

Thinks mods influence posters politics. Promoted to QAnon Editor.
I'm a little skeptical that people are saying they have noticed this, 7-10ms is impossible to measure with the naked eye, it's not even one 60fps frame.
 
BigEmil

BigEmil

Junior Member
Your using the Version 1 Dualshock 4 controllers correct? The Version 2 controllers has usb direct connection mode
 
Nose Master

Nose Master

Member
The cord you're using would affect this, I think. I have some whateverusb cords that can barely charge dualshocks while they're on, and some that do so just fine.
 
C

Calabi

Member
I'm not so sure about that video as proof. It could be a number of things, problems with the engine or other factors.
 
M

Moral Panic

Member
AgentP said:
I'm a little skeptical that people are saying they have noticed this, 7-10ms is impossible to measure with the naked eye, it's not even one 60fps frame.
Click to expand...

7-10 ms is impossible to measure but the images linked in the tweet show that due to polling the 7-10ms sometimes causes a frame miss.
 
C

Calabi

Member
Moral Panic said:
7-10 ms is impossible to measure but the images linked in the tweet show that due to polling the 7-10ms sometimes causes a frame miss.
Click to expand...

See there's a problem, "sometimes" how does that make any sense with a wired connection?

I wouldn't rule out problems with the player pressing the buttons, or it could be an issue with players 1 and 2.
 
N

noodalls

Member
Nose Master said:
The cord you're using would affect this, I think. I have some whateverusb cords that can barely charge dualshocks while they're on, and some that do so just fine.
Click to expand...

I have tried at least two different cords across three different tests without noticing a difference. I have previously looked at different cords in another test and not found a difference.
 
N

noodalls

Member
Moral Panic said:
Some more things to test if you have time.

1) Does it matter which one is Player 1
2) What happens with 3 usb and 1 bt
3) What happens with 3 bt and 1 usb
4) Does the uSB port matter
5) Does it matter if it is an OG/Slim/Pro
Click to expand...

1. I have tried switching P1 and P2 (not for this test but for another test) and not found a difference. Teyah (http://www.teyah.net/sticklag/overview.html) via a different method also did not find a difference.
5. Only tested on PS4 original so far.
 
N

noodalls

Member
AgentP said:
I'm a little skeptical that people are saying they have noticed this, 7-10ms is impossible to measure with the naked eye, it's not even one 60fps frame.
Click to expand...

Actually I think it's the opposite this time, so far as I'm aware almost no one has commented that they felt a difference playing wired being worse than wireless.

I've debated the difference that 10ms makes before, and my argument is normally this. If we're talking about the difference between reacting to something in 200 versus 210 ms, the difference is pretty minimal. Admittedly, if the threshold for the thing you're reacting to is 205ms, it could make a difference (e.g. throw breaks in Tekken are designed to be just at the cusp of normal people's ability to react, a further 10ms on top of this might push it outside that range).

However, if we're talking about two players playing a fighting game, and one of them has a controller 10ms slower, even if they respond at the exact same time to the same visual stimulus, and they press their buttons at the exact same time, ~2/3 of the time the player with the slower pad/stick/controller will be beaten out by a frame.
 
S

Sword Of Doom

Member
Are both controllers connected at the same time? I wonder what the measurements are if only a USB controller is connected

I've only read the OP and his test methodology. The links might have addressed this but I'm on mobile


I guess it just doesn't make sense for Sony to release a "wired" controller when it actually performs worse
 
H

Hoje0308

Banned
Sorry for going off topic, but has anyone had any issues while using USB communication? For about the last week now my controller will occasionally stop working while wired and even a hard reset via the button on the back doesn't allow me to regain a connection and I end up having to put my Pro into rest mode. This is rare though, as most times I can simply go wireless and continue playing without much issue. I've only one USB cable long enough to play using this method and occurrences are too random and infrequent to test it using a different cable, unless I want to sit about two feet away from my TV.
 
BigEmil

BigEmil

Junior Member
Hoje0308 said:
Sorry for going off topic, but has anyone had any issues while using USB communication? For about the last week now my controller will occasionally stop working while wired and even a hard reset via the button on the back doesn't allow me to regain a connection and I end up having to put my Pro into rest mode. This is rare though, as most times I can simply go wireless and continue playing without much issue. I've only one USB cable long enough to play using this method and occurrences are too random and infrequent to test it using a different cable, unless I want to sit about two feet away from my TV.
Click to expand...
Is your issue similar to this:

http://community.us.playstation.com...Dualshock-4-V2-connection-issue/td-p/46046163

Seems similar and what fixes it for him is apparently a complete system restart
 
LordOfChaos

LordOfChaos

Member
That would be disappointing. The DS4 already seems to get laggy when a 2.4GHz source like a microwave goes off at high power (in before 'no it doesn't' - depends on the microwave, the setup, the channel the DS4 chose, and a bunch of stuff)
 
H

Hoje0308

Banned
Evolved1

Evolved1

make sure the pudding isn't too soggy but that just ruins everything
Hoje0308 said:
Sorry for going off topic, but has anyone had any issues while using USB communication? For about the last week now my controller will occasionally stop working while wired and even a hard reset via the button on the back doesn't allow me to regain a connection and I end up having to put my Pro into rest mode. This is rare though, as most times I can simply go wireless and continue playing without much issue. I've only one USB cable long enough to play using this method and occurrences are too random and infrequent to test it using a different cable, unless I want to sit about two feet away from my TV.
Click to expand...
Yup. I get this shit very frequently. I switched back from USB because of it.
 
H

Hoje0308

Banned
Evolved1 said:
Yup. I get this shit very frequently. I switched back from USB because of it.
Click to expand...

The thing is, I'm not sure if it's a controller issue or something with the system's firmware. I'm still covered at Best Buy, but instead of replacing the controller they want me to return everything that came in the box the day I bought my Pro. That's a bit of a pain in the ass, but I'm inclined to do it just to see what comes of total hardware replacement.
 
Evolved1

Evolved1

make sure the pudding isn't too soggy but that just ruins everything
Hoje0308 said:
The thing is, I'm not sure if it's a controller issue or something with the system's firmware. I'm still covered at Best Buy, but instead of replacing the controller they want me to return everything that came in the box the day I bought my Pro. That's a bit of a pain in the ass, but I'm inclined to do it just to see what comes of total hardware replacement.
Click to expand...
Happens to someone else I know too. And only via USB.

I think it's the firmware, personally.
 
N

noodalls

Member
Explanation of input lag testing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNSWB6DwpgQ

Demonstration of input lag testing (wireless vs wired DS4 controller)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07nKZBXed7M

Video captured during the above video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftlfQGZvFtw

https://twitter.com/noodalls/status/819525124135129093
1P red left new DS4 wired in USB mode , responding with green bar near the top of the screen. Top = earlier in the frame = slower.


https://twitter.com/noodalls/status/819525390410530816
2P blue right old DS4 usb cable connected for charging in wireless mode. Green bar later = faster.
 
AlphaMale

AlphaMale

Member
Hoje0308 said:
The thing is, I'm not sure if it's a controller issue or something with the system's firmware. I'm still covered at Best Buy, but instead of replacing the controller they want me to return everything that came in the box the day I bought my Pro. That's a bit of a pain in the ass, but I'm inclined to do it just to see what comes of total hardware replacement.
Click to expand...

Interestingly, I decided to try out the controller that came with my Pro to play Iron Banner on Destiny. It took me a few days to figure it out, but DS4 from the Pro is *extremely* laggy compared to the stock DS4. Things like turning and running or running and then gunning sometimes don't even register at all! I switched back to my old school DS4, and it was fine.
I'm really miffed (and disappointed) about this. I returned my controller and got a new one, but haven't had a chance to open it up yet to try. I'm hoping it was maybe just that one controller with that issue, and not all the new DS4 controllers (the ones with the light bar on top of the scratch pad).
 
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