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PC vs. Next Gen Consoles: Your current rig really won't cut it

Kosma

Banned
Over the past few years PC GAF has grown in size, from Borys (rip) shouting in the desert to many members dabbling with PC gaming. I hope to have contributed to this in my own small way back when I started the first "I need a new PC thread" in 2008 which is now a GAF staple, or when
I tried and succeeded in building a 399 Crysis PC. It's great to see so many people here enjoy PC gaming now and see it's not intimidating or complicated and that the fidelity of graphics is often unmatched.

That said over the last few months when I was banned as usual (xoxo to the hard working mod team for locking thugs like me up, kabouter je weet toch) I've noticed that some people are under the impression that their current PC rig is all they need next gen. Now obviously this doesn't go for everyone or even the majority of PC GAF, but it seems some people that are maybe new to PC's think "I don't need next gen consoles I already have a super duper PC". This is why I would like to show some examples in this thread of why that is not true.

My thesis is that if you built a top of the line gaming rig last year (with a 400/500 dollar/euro GPU) it won't play the same games with the same performance as next gen consoles by the end of next gen. Anything you have now is simply not good enough. Even if you build a new rig on 720/PS4 launch day you will struggle to get to the finish line.

To prove my point I have done a little research, choosing a top of the line 2004 graphics card, the X800 pron (400 euro at launch) or Geforce Ultra 6800 (500 euro at launch) since that is the best one a year before the 360 launched. For my second point I have chosen the best card of 2005, the GTX 7800 (480 euro at launch) I have chosen these GPU as recommened by tweakers.net who do high end gaming system best buy guy every month since 2002.

We can see the 3DMARK 06 scores of these cards in this graph

3dmark_2006.jpg


The X800 scores 2200, the Ultra 6800 scores 2800, and the 7800 GTX scores 4800. By comparison my 2008, 399 euro rig that cost less to build that any of these cards does 8800. Thats how fast things move in PC land.

But what does this mean for game performance? Lets take a look at how todays or yesterdays GPU's handle games. How does the creme the la creme of 2004 stack up to Crysis? God bless the internet for this little gem where a good pc head makes a nice excel

Sub HD, 20 FPS.

The Ultra 6800 fares little better, playing RE5 in 1024x768 but barely...
Youtube video of Ultra 6800 choking on RE5

What about the GTX 7800 then? Surely this card which cost 500 euro when the 360 launched would beat the 360 to death now? Let's see how it does with Skyrim here
2005 king of the hill crying itself to sleep with Skyrim
Sub HD, 20 FPS.

Battlefield Bad Company 2 with the 7800 GTX fares no better. 1024x768, low settings to get 30 fps. Another vid of 7800 performance

So as you can see 2004 top of the line cards don't even play todays games really (as in some games simply won't boot up with them due to direct X shits), and even 2005 top of the line stuff from around the 360 launch is struggling. Meanwhile your 2005 360 is still playing RE6, Battlefield 3, Crysis 3 and Skyrim (or it would be playing if it didnt RROD 360 times). You can apply this to next gen too, your 2012 top of the line PC won't be enough by the end of next gen, it won't play the games even probably. Even your 2013 rig will be struggling. I didn't even mention the fact that 2004 rigs where running with 1/2 GB ram on single cores and such, but games today wont even let you launch with that setup.

So the next time you're thinking of posting something about not needing next gen consoles since you already have a super gaming rig, think of this. Don't set yourself up for some huge disappointment when the new consoles hit and required specs skyrocket.
 

K' Dash

Member
Well, it is just laughable to think consoles will pack the same power as a mid end Gaming Rig and cut power consumption, size and prince, I mean c'mon...
 

The whole thing that you did not really consider is the Wattage of modern graphics and the wattage of graphics cards then. Consoles could then have roughly top of the line GFX cards in them due to their power envelope. Now that is not even possible as they have gotten bigger and hotter. PCs can use more power and consoles cannot. They will then as a result have much more powerful GFX cards then put in nextgen consoles...

Your thread is sadly invalidated due to this point.
 

Auto_aim1

MeisaMcCaffrey
I don't think it's wise to compare this gen with what's going to happen next-gen. I mean, yes, the PC requirements will probably increase, but PC tech has advanced a lot due to the abnormally lengthy console cycle this gen.

You also have to take into account that next-gen probably won't be a massive leap due to a myriad of reasons. I will be honestly surprised if a current high-end PC cannot handle next-gen third-party games easily.
 

rjc571

Banned
No offence but what was the point of this post, the guy clearly put a lot of effort in and you just set the tone of the thread to one mocking what he's done.

BTW nice OP, OP.

Because his entire argument is that next gen will automatically play out the same way this gen did while ignoring the wealth of factors that suggest that isn't the case?
 

Kosma

Banned
The whole thing that you did not really consider is the Wattage of modern graphics and the wattage of graphics cards then. Consoles could then have roughly top of the line GFX cards in them due to their power envelop. Now that is not even possible as they have gotten bigger and hotter.

Your thread is sadly invalidated due to this point.

Interesting point, but GPU is only one part of the story here as you know. I didn't really cover the fact that 2004 rigs didn't have enough RAM and had single core CPU's which now wouldn't even let you launch games.
 

Corky

Nine out of ten orphans can't tell the difference.
Well I guess we'll have to wait and see. I'd love, like for real, if a $500 console blew my pc that cost me several times that away. Who wouldn't?
 

K' Dash

Member
No offence but what was the point of this post, the guy clearly put a lot of effort in and you just set the tone of the thread to one mocking what he's done.

BTW nice OP, OP.

Do you really believe that consoles will pack something better than a 670?
 
Interesting point, but GPU is only one part of the story here as you know. I didn't really cover the fact that 2004 rigs didn't have enough RAM and had single core CPU's which now wouldn't even let you launch games.

I mean... there were dual core CPUs back in 2005 and I had 3 gigs of RAM in 2005.

I sadly had an intel chip back then though.
 

benny_a

extra source of jiggaflops
Because his entire argument is that next gen will automatically play out the same way this gen did while ignoring the wealth of factors that suggest that isn't the case?

We'll see in 6 years if you or Kosma is right.
 

Kokonoe

Banned
I don't know, it seems crazy since the top of the line cards right now are 300-400$+ (and the real top of the line ones are 1000$+), and they are also much bigger than console graphics cards. Consoles have to scale the hardware down, the power consumption, and also the price, it just doesn't seem logical unless consoles are going to be like 800$.
 
I had a 7800gtx at the point I bought a 360 a few months after release. It made the 360 seem disappointing- I could run games like CoD2 and Oblivion at 1080p with more detail than the 360 versions. Yet later, games such as the first Codemasters F1 game (2010?) would barely run a 800x600. I imagine it has a lot to do with developers not bothering to optimise for older rigs though.
 

stuminus3

Member
The X800 Pro did much better against the 360 than it looks on paper. The biggest issue was that it didn't do SM3.0, which most big-name console game ports required from around 2006.

Try using Quake 4 as your benchmark. :p
 

EVOL 100%

Member
As it has already been stated, this argument only works if we see a leap in power comparable to previous generations, when all evidence points to that not happening.

I'd love to be wrong, especially if the new consoles are cheap but would that actually be plausible?
 

Kosma

Banned
Well I guess we'll have to wait and see. I'd love, like for real, if a $500 console blew my pc that cost me several times that away. Who wouldn't?

Yeah that would be great, but it won't happen ofc :)

When 360 launched there were plenty PC's that played COD2 and Oblivion much much much better. But those PC's won't play Skyrim better. That's my whole argument.

I had a 7800gtx at the point I bought a 360 a few months after release. It made the 360 seem disappointing- I could run games like CoD2 and Oblivion at 1080p with more detail than the 360 versions. Yet later, games such as the first Codemasters F1 game (2010?) would barely run a 800x600. I imagine it has a lot to do with developers not bothering to optimise for older rigs though.

This is EXACTLY the type of stuff I'm talking about. This of course will happen again unfortunately. I've seen this happen every gen pretty much.
 
No offence but what was the point of this post, the guy clearly put a lot of effort in and you just set the tone of the thread to one mocking what he's done.

BTW nice OP, OP.

I agree, I can't even figure out what the first two posts are referencing. The OP was well done and informative. He's made a good point... Let's assume you buy a new high-end setup next Fall in time for launch of next-gen, you will almost guaranteed have to upgrade at least once, possibly twice, during the gen which will last almost a decade. Not an entire overhaul but for sure a new GPU/CPU. RAM shouldn't be a problem.. 16gb should be fine for the whole gen.



As it has already been stated, this argument only works if we see a leap in power comparable to previous generations, when all evidence points to that not happening.

I'd love to be wrong, especially if the new consoles are cheap but would that actually be plausible?

What evidence? From all I've read both the PS4 and 720 will be true leaps.
 

Vaporak

Member
I think that this is a good possibility to keep in mind. But it's only realistic if Sony/Microsoft heavily subsidize their next consoles again, which is much more of an if this time around than it was for this last console generation.
 

Easy_D

never left the stone age
Yeah that would be great, but it won't happen ofc :)

When 360 launched there were plenty PC's that played COD2 and Oblivion much much much better. But those PC's won't play Skyrim better. That's my whole argument.

Skyrim has better graphics sure, but if you use settings comparable to how the games look on the 360, would the difference be there? PC ports got better and better as time went on.
 

Kosma

Banned
I don't know, it seems crazy since the top of the line cards right now are 300-400$+ (and the real top of the line ones are 1000$+), and they are also much bigger than console graphics cards. Consoles have to scale the hardware down, the power consumption, and also the price, it just doesn't seem logical unless consoles are going to be like 800$.

This was also the case in 2004 and 2005 of course.
 
It's unwise to simply extrapolate last generation trends onto next generation ones. You may end up being correct, but if you are it won't be "because that was the case last time too". Increasing TDP on gpu components and the inability for next gen boxes to scale with them while PC can be as hot as need is not the same situation as last gen, where they got away with matching/exceeding PCs of the day by increasing their draw to somewhere in the region of 200W, a massive hike over what had come before. We're not going to see a 400W beast, and for this reason a top of the line 2013 rig may well last longer than a 2004/5 rig did in this one.

Of course, if devs start putting no effort into ports as hardware power scales (relying on brute force of newer cards to make up the slack), or adding on bells and whistles to the PC versions, then things could get hairy again.
 

Kosma

Banned
Skyrim has better graphics sure, but if you use settings comparable to how the games look on the 360, would the difference be there? PC ports got better and better as time went on.

Well if you would have clicked on that youtube link in the OP you would have seen the effect. The 7800 GTX can barely run skyrim 15 fps on medium/low while idling, during fights it drops to sub 10 fps.

:)
 
It's unwise to simply extrapolate last generation trends onto next generation ones. You may end up being correct, but if you are it won't be "because that was the case last time too". Increasing TDP on gpu components and the inability for next gen boxes to scale with them while PC can be as hot as need is not the same situation as last gen, where they got away with matching/exceeding PCs of the day by increasing their draw to somewhere in the region of 200W, a massive hike over what had come before. We're not going to see a 400W beast, and for this reason a top of the line 2013 rig may well last longer than a 2004/5 rig did in this one.

Of course, if devs start putting no effort into ports as hardware power scales (relying on brute force of newer cards to make up the slack), or adding on bells and whistles to the PC versions, then things could get hairy again.

Basically what I stated. 2 great minds... you see where I am going here
 

Lanark

Member
I'm mostly worried about video ram, my 570GTX's only have 1250 mb, some games are already pushing that at 1080 with some AA (like Battlefield 3). If the next gen Xbox really has 8GB ram, and there'll be next gen games that use 3 to 4 gigs of video ram, my cards could be outdated quite quickly.
 

Derrick01

Banned
There are a lot of flaws with this. First and probably most important you're assuming next gen consoles will start off at the top of the line just because they did last gen, not considering that this gen has lasted 8 years thus making the power gap even bigger and more expensive to catch up to. Will consoles launch with GTX 680 parts (nevermind that we'll be in the 700s this year probably)? I doubt it.
 
Skyrim has better graphics sure, but if you use settings comparable to how the games look on the 360, would the difference be there? PC ports got better and better as time went on.

We need someone with a PC from 2005 to install Skyrim and see how it runs.
 

DaBuddaDa

Member
Of course, if devs start putting no effort into ports as hardware power scales (relying on brute force of newer cards to make up the slack), or adding on bells and whistles to the PC versions, then things could get hairy again.

This is exactly what I expect to happen. AAA PC gaming will no longer be a focus when a new cycle begins. Same thing has happened the last two cycles, and PC gamers get rushed, understaffed ports that run like crap even with comparably good rigs.
 

Kosma

Banned
It's unwise to simply extrapolate last generation trends onto next generation ones. You may end up being correct, but if you are it won't be "because that was the case last time too". Increasing TDP on gpu components and the inability for next gen boxes to scale with them while PC can be as hot as need is not the same situation as last gen, where they got away with matching/exceeding PCs of the day by increasing their draw to somewhere in the region of 200W, a massive hike over what had come before. We're not going to see a 400W beast, and for this reason a top of the line 2013 rig may well last longer than a 2004/5 rig did in this one.

Of course, if devs start putting no effort into ports as hardware power scales (relying on brute force of newer cards to make up the slack), or adding on bells and whistles to the PC versions, then things could get hairy again.

I agree no two gens are the same but some things don't really change

The GTX 7800 used 300 watts almost under load too btw, so the whole wattage/power angle is a bit moot no?

http://www.anandtech.com/show/1717/20

Although this is the whole system.

7648.png
 
Excellent thread start mate. With good solid argument.

I believe you are completely right.

That is why i am waiting to buy a pc after the dust from the next gen consoles have settled.
 
I usually buy a PC in between generations to tide me over in the transition process. But dedicated PC gaming? No. The developers don't give a crap about optimization; and machines themselves are inefficent; and the technology becomes outdated too quickly. It will never become the dominant platform because of that. There's no reason COD, a game that changes very little, year to year runs the same on consoles, but requires more and more system requirements from the PC end of things.
 

Omikaru

Member
Of course, if devs start putting no effort into ports as hardware power scales (relying on brute force of newer cards to make up the slack), or adding on bells and whistles to the PC versions, then things could get hairy again.

I'm worried that this is what'll happen, and another reason that I'd support a baseline PC spec that developers can target (and, of course, allow scaling up from there).
 

Kosma

Banned
We need someone with a PC from 2005 to install Skyrim and see how it runs.

Just look at the youtube video in the OP.

That's exactly what is there.

I wish people would read the OP :(

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPIuTOm6flc

I was playing on low-medium settings (1280x1024). I got 15-18 fps idling, and about 8 when things are going down, like fighting and buildings breaking etc.
I turned the resolution down though for better fps(i get about 30 all the time now.)

PC SPECS:
Windows XP Professional 32-bit
Intel Core Duo 2 E6600@2.4GHz
3GB 332MHz DDR2 RAM
PCIe x16 7800 GTX 256MB
250GB Hitachi HDD
1TB Seagate Barracuda HDD
 
The best console developers code to the metal and pull off amazing feats precisely because they are targeting a closed box system. You can't do that for an open platform like the PC.

This is why games like Halo 4, Uncharted 3, Killzone 3 and GoW 3 look so mindblowingly good, far better than anything you will see on even on a PC using cutting edge $2000+ hardware from 2007.

This isnt even factoring in the likelihood that the PS4/720 will have some hardware features by default not found in normal PCs such as a ton of cache, either a ton of ram 16-32gb or a very high memory bandwidth, or an SSD by default that the developers could code specifically towards to pull off feats not possible in PC Games. For example, devs will never release a PC game that can ONLY run off an SSD, but they can certainly make such a game for a next gen console that only supports SSDs and not traditional slow HDDs.

Honestly the point the OP is illustrating (that a closed box can pull off amazing things simply not possible on an open platform because devs can code down to the metal for a closed box) is so self evident and obvious that I didn't think it even needed a thread pointing it out.

I am baffled that people are arguing with the OP.
 
I agree with the OP. PC are way better than console but they're aging badly when consoles are having a peak when devs are starting to make very good use of all the tools they have for creating their games.

A 2013 PC at 800$ clearly won't end up being a good gaming machine in 2020 when PS4 and Xbox 720 will have their best games.
 

Domstercool

Member
Just look at the youtube video in the OP.

That's exactly what is there.

I wish people would read the OP :(

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPIuTOm6flc

The thing with that though, is people say the 360 graphics card is the same as a ATI card that came out in 2006. The technology wasn't in PCs then. Times have changed and now you're hearing rumours that the cards won't be more advanced that PC cards (like they used to be back in the days).
 

DaBuddaDa

Member
Chû Totoro;46110721 said:
A 2013 PC at 800$ clearly won't end up being a good gaming machine in 2020 when PS4 and Xbox 720 will have their best games.

Slight derail: I saw 2020 and laughed, but then I realized if the new consoles come out in 2013 and last as long as this gen then 2020 will be exactly where we are today and my brain exploded.
 
Slight derail: I saw 2020 and laughed, but then I realized if the new consoles come out in 2013 and last as long as this gen then 2020 will be exactly where we are today and my brain exploded.

2020 sounds like some future sci-fi time period, it just doesn't sound real, but we are only 7 years away.
 
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