You're questioning their intent, but the fact is they were involved and the way they engaged the protest very clearly had thought put into it and a focus on facilitation versus confrontation.
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Dallas Police Chief: "Were Asking Cops To Do Too Much In This Country"
- Thread starter SteveO409
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7DollarHagane
Banned
I don't know why this isn't a higher focus issue. Championing a strong family unit has become some kind of bigoted racist issue but I think it's generally better for kids to have two parents that are involved. That just isn't happening enough among all races and families in the us.
UnemployedVillain
Member
So is Stacey Dash
rokkerkory
Member
I am not saying it will be easy but must be done. You don't get anywhere with more killings on either side.
D
Deleted member 752119
Unconfirmed Member
As a criminologists who does a lot of research on and with police, it's just an incredibly complex issue. The chief is right that police are asked to do too much with too little, and there are a host of societal and legal problems intertwined that lead to many of the issues police and communities today face.
A big problem with the current tension, as many have noted, is there's too much all or nothing, us vs. them type stuff going on from both sides. If you're pro-black lives matter, you get viewed as anti-police. If you're pro-police you're anti-black people.
We should all be pro black lives matter and opposed to all the discrimination that happens in law enforcement and other areas of life. We should all also be supportive of police as most are good people, working to keep our communities safe and orderly, for relatively low pay in most places (especially big cities). And they're doing it with a lack of personel and resources after all the cuts to state and local budgets since 2008.
That said, police leaders need to step up and bring about the types of reforms needed that are in the realm of things they can change. They need to start taking cases of discrimination, illegal use of force, illegal stops and searches seriously. Promote whistleblowing, and appropriately discipline cops who abuse their powers and especially those who violate the law. Re-shape police training to address racism and prejudices. Spend more time training officers in how to deescalate situations, how to handle mentally ill persons and so forth. However, that requires money and resources. It's going to require either higher taxes or cuts to other areas of state and local budgets.
Beyond that, we need major changes to our legal system and society in general. We need to end the war on drugs and all the stops, frisks and searches that go along with it. None of this has worked, it's given too many non-violent individuals criminal records that make it very hard to turn one's life around with all the things having a felon record preclude you from. In general there's just too much overpolicing, too many arrests, too much incarceration. The system needs to be more focused on prevention and focusing arrests etc. on serious violent and property crime. More use of warnings and working with the community to deal with disorder problems, low level drug problems and so forth.
As for society in general, hopefully the rise of Trump and all his bigotry is a wake up call that racism, bigotry and discrimination are far from dead in this country. All aspects of social policy need to focus on promoting equality and diversity to counteract all the institutionalized racism, concentrated disadvantage in minority communities and all the other things that end up concentrating crime, and therefore police attention, in certain types of communities.
The police can do a lot more than they have to limit abuses of power and discrimination by officers. But that will be a drop in the bucket without fixing the larger problems in society that underlie the issue.
A big problem with the current tension, as many have noted, is there's too much all or nothing, us vs. them type stuff going on from both sides. If you're pro-black lives matter, you get viewed as anti-police. If you're pro-police you're anti-black people.
We should all be pro black lives matter and opposed to all the discrimination that happens in law enforcement and other areas of life. We should all also be supportive of police as most are good people, working to keep our communities safe and orderly, for relatively low pay in most places (especially big cities). And they're doing it with a lack of personel and resources after all the cuts to state and local budgets since 2008.
That said, police leaders need to step up and bring about the types of reforms needed that are in the realm of things they can change. They need to start taking cases of discrimination, illegal use of force, illegal stops and searches seriously. Promote whistleblowing, and appropriately discipline cops who abuse their powers and especially those who violate the law. Re-shape police training to address racism and prejudices. Spend more time training officers in how to deescalate situations, how to handle mentally ill persons and so forth. However, that requires money and resources. It's going to require either higher taxes or cuts to other areas of state and local budgets.
Beyond that, we need major changes to our legal system and society in general. We need to end the war on drugs and all the stops, frisks and searches that go along with it. None of this has worked, it's given too many non-violent individuals criminal records that make it very hard to turn one's life around with all the things having a felon record preclude you from. In general there's just too much overpolicing, too many arrests, too much incarceration. The system needs to be more focused on prevention and focusing arrests etc. on serious violent and property crime. More use of warnings and working with the community to deal with disorder problems, low level drug problems and so forth.
As for society in general, hopefully the rise of Trump and all his bigotry is a wake up call that racism, bigotry and discrimination are far from dead in this country. All aspects of social policy need to focus on promoting equality and diversity to counteract all the institutionalized racism, concentrated disadvantage in minority communities and all the other things that end up concentrating crime, and therefore police attention, in certain types of communities.
The police can do a lot more than they have to limit abuses of power and discrimination by officers. But that will be a drop in the bucket without fixing the larger problems in society that underlie the issue.
There's two sets of problems.
One set are things like a lack of mental health funding -- police end up responding to the problems caused by this, but the police can't solve the underlying problem. He wants other government agencies to "step up" and "do their job."
The second set are police problems like excessive use of force. He's acknowledged a lot of these problems, has fired dozens of officers, and has put in reforms that have made some progress to reduce these problems, but afaik he's never said they're done reforming or that they're perfect. In addition to these reforms he's already enacting, he also suggests that people that care about these issues could help by being the change they want to see and become a cop and that together, they can bring about even more change.
I don't think it's accurate to suggest he is conflating those two sets of problems.
People who talk about race are considered racial agitators. We can't have a national conversation if people have that mentality.
Actually what does that even mean, national conversation? Is mentioning it on the news or social media a national conversation?
Exactly.
ShockingAlberto
Member
Cops are called when people break the law. They are not called upon to solve the underlying social problems.
It really can't be both ways where cops complain that people are asking them for deep societal problems while the defense of that argument is that they are only called on for superficial things.
I agree with you.
"Conversation" like it is a just a funny little story in reader's digest.
ryutaro's mama
Member
What is "either side"? These things aren't equal. This isn't like two rival gangs shooting at each other.
The murders committed by Micah Johnson were carried out by someone not affiliated with any legitimized force, sworn to uphold the law. Yes, he was a serviceman at one time but he isn't an active, trusted member. HE WAS A CRIMINAL IN THE END. The police aren't 1:1 with him or anyone that breaks the law.
The police will always have to deal with deranged individuals, regardless. Independent of that obligation, they shouldn't be engaging in use of force on citizens, in situations that don't call for it.
Agreed, the issue is incredibly complicated yet people just want to paint it black and white (pardon the pun) and choose sides. It's frustrating.
One side wants to end police brutality, what does the other side want?
excelsiorlef
Member
MHWilliams
Member
Most do. Has nothing to do with racism, potential or otherwise, either way.
That's a whole other can of worms really. Hell, some studies have shown black cops may be more likely to arrest black people.
http://www.vox.com/2015/5/7/8562077/police-racism-implicit-bias
Damn. That was cold.
That's reasonable. As you can note from the discussion here, people in either direction seem to be conflating multiple ideas. Hence the long discussion about African-American fathers being absent.
What's BLM's current body count?
excelsiorlef
Member
yep which is why just having more black cops isn't the solution.
Indocrination effect is real and many tend to be weary of perceived racial bias that they will be more lenient with "their own" so they over compensate by being even more bias against.
You see the same with women bias towards their own gender in similar situations.
tearsintherain
Member
The single greatest thing we could do to fix many of our societies problem is end the war on drugs. Its at the root of many of our problems: a privatized prison industry complex, high incarceration rate of black men, single parent children, militarized police, insane prison terms for a third minor drug offenses, crazy bail bond rates, on and on.
Ironically it was Bill Clinton who basically turned it from an 80s pop logo "just say no!" to the systemic, widely adopted set of policies that currently grip much of our law enforcement and judicial systems.
Ironically it was Bill Clinton who basically turned it from an 80s pop logo "just say no!" to the systemic, widely adopted set of policies that currently grip much of our law enforcement and judicial systems.
He's criticizing the echelons of legislature above him for failing to do their jobs and creating a situation where the police have to deal with the fallout.
Just wanted to call this out. So, let me know if I'm getting this right.
1) Police are being too militarized
2) When the police show up to a protest in shortsleeves and blocking traffic to clear the way instead of in force with riot gear and APCs, it's the police chief's fault when some asshole decides to start shooting them.
Yeah, that makes tons of sense.
Can Crusher
Banned
Does the statistic hold any water? 70%?!
Brawndo Addict
Banned
Just because the government is failing to do things doesn't mean you have an excuse to let your own self-created institutional problems continue to perpetuate. It would be one thing if he said that the necessary reforms and solutions were too expensive to implement without additional government funding, I don't think anyone would object to that and would happily rally behind the sentiment.
But this would be like a school principal responding to the discovery that a bunch of teachers have been using corporeal punishment on kids by complaining that they're underfunded, underappreciated, and being asked to solve too many societal problems. So what? What on earth does that have to do with anything? Organizations with institutional problems will protect bad actors regardless of how well-funded or appreciated they are, it's a completely separate issue.
But this would be like a school principal responding to the discovery that a bunch of teachers have been using corporeal punishment on kids by complaining that they're underfunded, underappreciated, and being asked to solve too many societal problems. So what? What on earth does that have to do with anything? Organizations with institutional problems will protect bad actors regardless of how well-funded or appreciated they are, it's a completely separate issue.
He wasn't responding to BLM, he was answering a reporter's question about his thoughts when he goes to sleep IIRC. So the context here is different. Also if you read up on the guy, he's made a lot of reforms to DPD that has resulted in good progress towards being more community oriented and focusing on de-escalation of situations. He has also fired many officers for over-aggression, publicly explained why he fired them, and praised officers who reported the bad apples. He is only one PD chief, but his actions show he is conscious of the problem and is working to fix them.
I can't really explain myself well right now but I'll fix this up later (I need to get the thought out anyway).
I feel like the blame for all this conflict, murder, etc is because of the government's half-assing. And statements like these from PD interest me because of the possibilities.
I wonder will we have to get to the point the police feel abandoned by the government ( like the public does) before there's any change. Judging from what Brown says, could this be brewing?
I feel like the blame for all this conflict, murder, etc is because of the government's half-assing. And statements like these from PD interest me because of the possibilities.
I wonder will we have to get to the point the police feel abandoned by the government ( like the public does) before there's any change. Judging from what Brown says, could this be brewing?
From 10,000 feet his point is well taken. The societal safety net has failed so many, and unsurprisingly a lot of those people have little respect for that society. That manifests in dogs that aren't cared for, homework that's not done, fights at school, fights in front yards, crime, children being either willfully abandoned or left to fend for themselves, and a host of other serious problems. Left untreated these fester into public disturbances, often violent, and that's when the police get called. There are thousands of people in jail that should be getting medicated and receiving counseling. Society won't pay for that, though. We'll pay to have them locked up, but not to get the care they need.
Brawndo Addict
Banned
The context of the answer would be a good addition to the OP as it's currently written in such a way that it sounds like he held a press conference about the whole situation and brought this up proactively rather than being asked a completely different wide-ranging question. I would have had a completely different reaction if I was given that setup alone.
Again, this police chief has fired 70 cops for aggressive and violent behavior. He has specifically praised cops who blow the whistle on other cops who are abusing their authority. The police union has been trying to force him to step down for busting down the blue wall, and police recruitment is down because the type of authoritarian asshole who becomes a cop to get access to power they can abuse doesn't want to be a cop in Dallas anymore. They training he has new recruits go through emphasizes deescalation techniques and both arrests and use of force (especially deadly force) have dropped as a result of his reforms.
If we could clone the guy and have him as police chief in every city, we'd objectively be in a better place.
He is frustrated by the demands placed on the police department by the legislature refusing to fund anything that could help people. And again, police recruitment is down because the future bad apples don't want to apply to work for him, and the future good apples are afraid of bad apple indoctrination. He wants those future good apples, and his work objectively shows that he's trying to create a better barrel for them.
Yeah the OP is misleading in the way it frames him.
rokkerkory
Member
I don't even understand what you're trying to imply here.
excelsiorlef
Member
You literally say killings on either side.
BLM didn't kill any cops.
Only one side in this is killing people on the other.
I don't believe kory meant BLM killing people - he is most likely referring to the Dallas shooting.
0ptimusPayne
Member
He makes plenty of good points IMO as a black man myself. One big thing is the allocation of patrol officers is a complete shit show, especially in my city. Cant tell you how many calls we fielded when I did a dispatcher experience, that had no F-ing business dialing 911.
rokkerkory
Member
Ah I see, I didn't mean BLM killing people. I was just talking about the bigger issue overall and that any type of unnecessary force/killing by cops OR citizens are inexcusable.
Perhaps I was should have responded this in another thread and not this specific thread wrt to the Dallas shooting.
ryutaro's mama
Member
Madmen have killed law enoforcers for as long as we have recorded history. Those criminals aren't having a dialogue with police. So which sides is he talking about?
If it is BLM vs. Police, the correct answer is, no one from BLM is out here matching body counts with the police.
Chie Satonaka
Member
Oh, so what you're saying is that you want both sides to come to the table?
Cause there's been one group of people who have been at the table for generations, and another group of people who don't acknowledge a problem to begin with, therefore they don't see the need to sit down and talk about it.
If that group was actually interested in changing things, politically or otherwise, things would change, so let's not make the mistake of thinking this is some sort of "both sides need to do better" type situation.
The system is working as it's designed to work.
Given his reply above, it seems he had no such intent.
Also as an aside, i've seen the guy post here for years and he's never been the type to imply anything racist, so I suppose i'm just trying to stick up for him.
Micah doesn't really represent a "side" though.
rokkerkory
Member
Which side hasn't come to the table? How can we force them to? Yeah the system sucks and needs to be changed. How can we do it together?
If this is off-topic from the thread, we can PM (not direct at you just in general). I do not want to derail but we can have a dialogue. Thanks.
Goldenroad
Member
I think all most people are asking them to add to their list of tasks is to NOT KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE!!! In fact, that ends up being one less thing for them to do. No one is expecting them to end poverty or prevent any crime ever from occurring, just don't kill people because of the color of their skin. If that's too much to ask, then go find a new line of work.
Lawmakers
Protesting to grab attention and disruption until they can't ignore it anymore.
andthebeatgoeson
Junior Member
Haha.
rokkerkory
Member
Peaceful protesting and disruption is certainly one way. I think that is what Gandhi advocated 'nonviolent' disruption.
Gotdatmoney
Member
I understand his point. That said, these societal issues that fall to the police don't really fall to the police. Their job is to arrest people who break the law and do so in a reasonable manner. Their job is not to give a shit about single mothers and mental health beyond enforcing the law reasonably. No one has asked them to do more than that. That is society and law makers jobs. I'm sure people want that shit fixed too. But from the police, just dont kill unnecessarily.
Karsticles
Member
He sounds like he has thought about this a lot. I am going to read more.
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