The haze already looks way better imo. Looks more like a movie.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
DF: Final Fantasy 12 Zodiac Age PS4/PS4 Pro vs PS2/Emulation Graphics Comparison
- Thread starter LordOfLore
- Start date
The haze already looks way better imo. Looks more like a movie.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Yeah, I didn't mean to imply it looks bad to me, just pointing it out since that's the point being used a few times in this topic. I'm sure it looks even better in motion.
MetalliCabombination
Member
Lol, someone actually canceled their pre order because it isnt 60fps?
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Nah. There's always at least one poster who says that in every topic. I doubt anyone actually does it, it's just them trying to be edgy.
WHAT.... how ??
Jawbreaker
Member
The remaster looks beautiful.
He's not wrong.
They fucked up the faces in FFX HD,and we're likely stuck with this fuckery until SE make another remaster for FFX..which is probably not happening for a decade+ (if ever)
This is a better remaster,however.
MetalliCabombination
Member
This isnt directed at anyone in particular but it always fascinates me how much people tend to care for and invest in visuals but draw the line at buying actual good screens.
Yeah i agree sony should mandate downsampling but when youre buying new consoles for minor graphical bumps i have to assume money isn't an issue.So trust me, some of this newer shit is really worth it. More so over buying an upgraded xbox or playstation.
I play on a 49" 4k screen and I honestly struggle to tell the difference in gameplay beyond 1440p even on with my pc.
Were it upto me, id restrict every ps4 pro game to 1440p and improve other aspects with the juice left
Yeah i agree sony should mandate downsampling but when youre buying new consoles for minor graphical bumps i have to assume money isn't an issue.So trust me, some of this newer shit is really worth it. More so over buying an upgraded xbox or playstation.
I play on a 49" 4k screen and I honestly struggle to tell the difference in gameplay beyond 1440p even on with my pc.
Were it upto me, id restrict every ps4 pro game to 1440p and improve other aspects with the juice left
WickedLaharl
Member
I was just looking at that one pic which looked janky, which is why I was asking if that was just a bad pic or if it was representative of the final game.
texhnolyze
Banned
Thanks for the pics, Yiazmat.
Another thing I noticed is that it looks like they applied some form of sweetfx/reshade to gain more color and darker atmosphere (also blurriness).
Another thing I noticed is that it looks like they applied some form of sweetfx/reshade to gain more color and darker atmosphere (also blurriness).
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
eh ... DoF shenanigans included, the whole package looks a helluva lot better to me.
Mentosrock
Member
Yeah the remaster looks much much better. Just seeing the sheen on vaan's coat as he attacks monsters is a nice change. I'm very impressed by what they did with this. Now I just wish my amazon preorder glitch pricing held haha.
Component video has reduced chroma resolution while RGB uses full resolution for all channels.
It's especially noticeable with low resolution content.
Looking at the video again though, I'm not sure that the issue is just that they were capturing via component video.
It looks like something weird is going on with chroma sampling, possibly relating to the capture, as there are edges which seem to lack any color whatsoever.
Look at the left edge of Vaan here:
Or the red line here, which takes on a striped appearance:
There shouldn't be edges that are just gray without any color information.
With component video, chroma should just be blurred, not missing.
Are those the same resolution? The bottom image looks way too busy and jagged, and those objects in the distance have zero depth. The remaster looks vastly better.
RayCharlizard
Member
Probably same resolution or very close, the PS4 version employs mipmapping which is entirely missing in the PS2 version which is what leads to the aliasing of angled texturues. The addition of AO and bump mapping also help the textures on the PS4 version seem "fuller" and give more depth to their details.
How dare they obscure the sprite vase, the sprite light posts, and the sprite guard with their DoF shenanigans!!!
The vase at the very least is already its 3D model at that same distance (hard to tell on the lamps and the guard), but the LOD distractions in the environment are a vast improvement. Like I said before it's a shame they didn't do the same for NPC pop-in though.
ss_lemonade
Member
Since no one answered, guess I would just check myself via pcsx2. Picked up my copy earlier and yup, looks like it uses the exact same cropped, widescreen mode as the PS2. Not a big deal but I was expecting it to be the same as the 4:3 version, but in full 16:9 AR without cropping (something which pcsx2 allows via a widescreen patch)
PS4
PS2 in 16:9
PS2 in 4:3
Seriously there's no true 16:9 widescreen mode? To me that's inexcusable for a fully rendered three dimensional game like this. It should have been the first thing they implemented! Huge oversight, or just incredibly lazy especially considering it's easily achieved with a widescreen hack via emulator. How did DF not pick up on this?
I hate anything using a zoomed/cropped image, I take it the 4:3 aspect ratio is no longer available either? I think this might tip me over the edge to wait for the PC release where a true widescreen mode will likely be achieved via mods.
I hate anything using a zoomed/cropped image, I take it the 4:3 aspect ratio is no longer available either? I think this might tip me over the edge to wait for the PC release where a true widescreen mode will likely be achieved via mods.
A lot of us don't want to buy a new TV right now because the HDMI and HDR specs are either going to be superseded soon or not even settled properly. A high end 4K with proper HDR support is still expensive. If you've got a nice Panasonic plasma they probably have better IQ than 80% of screens you can buy today anyway.
FlutterPuffs
Member
Sorry, but component video cable was far better than composite for Final Fantasy 12 on the PS2. The text is much better and easier to read for one.
Lol the bottom picture looks terrible in comparison. Look at the streetlamps, plants, guard and the banners. I'd wish they went lighter on the dof and bloom too but remaster is clearly improved over the emulated version, especially in motion.
MetalliCabombination
Member
But that kinda applies to xb1x and ps4pro too.
Especially with ryzen out soon, why not wait for a year or two to see if theyll have backwards compatibility and then take the dive?
Getting proper 4k with games is equally expensive and all im saying is getting a 800ish dollar tv is better than getting a 500 dollar console right now if you already have one of the base models.
These updated iterations have been specially designed to appeal to a crowd thats comfortable buying 4k displays in the state theyre in. Its ultimately a niche a market so don't expect either to get a lot of support until the next gen comes with native 4k as its base and 1080p tv's become hard to find
Prithee Be Careful
Industry Professional
Yup, I have have to agree. Crash Bandicoot: N. Sane Trilogy and Ratchet and Clank were both complete ground-up rebuilds and both managed to offer a lower price point. I'm guessing that rewriting game logic - though no small undertaking - is less intensive than entirely rebuilding a game from scratch.
ss_lemonade
Member
I think people wouldn't notice, but yeah it kind of sucks. Here's the PS4 version vs pcsx2 with a widescreen patch
PS4
PS2 via PCSX2 patched
Not sure about 4:3 on the PS4 though. No time to test at the moment
Yep that does suck. I won't hold my breath for a patch considering you seem to be the only person on the internet to have noticed this!
Vital Tundra
Member
Thank god they made those changes. There is no depth in the original. Looks like Im looking at some sort of amalgamation of brick in the PS2 one.
All in all it looks great. I like the changes in color. Everything looks like they are in the same place at the same time, which the original lacked.
ss_lemonade
Member
My best guess is since cropped widescreen is what the original game was tested to work with, that's just what the developers went with. Saves having to test all scenes with a different FOV. But then again, this is a $50 remaster
. It probably just wasn't as important for themI am surprise, I thought true wide screen was added to the PS2 US release compare to the original PS2 JP release.
Caayn
Member
Liabe Brave
Member
I've now watched the video in full, and you're incorrect. It's true that the NPC fade-in is unchanged. However, apart from that PS4 actually eliminates a lot of pop-in from the PS2 (and PC-emulated) versions. Though the video only shows a handful of scenes overall, the effect can be seen across several each in the city and the desert. As with the small plant, sometimes the objects are just missing. Note below the trees and plants only visible on PS4, even well off into the distance. (The comparison is with emulation, but it's not an error; the same low draw distance is on actual PS2 as well.)
Other times, objects are flat sprites until nearby on PS2, whereas they're always 3D models on PS4. Below, look at the potted palm in the distance of the first (PS4) shot, which on PS2 doesn't begin to transition until much closer; you can see it mid-transition with only the leading edge being geometry in the second shot. Mesh detail isn't all that has a higher viewing distance. These shots also show that the column on the right is lit the whole time on PS4, but that edge lighting still hasn't appeared on PS2, even as close as Vaan is. It comes in just after this, again far closer than on PS4.
The lack of downsampling in this particular title is probably unnoticeable for almost everyone. See my comparison earlier in the thread.
No, the emulator shot is native 4K whereas the PS4 Pro shot is 1440p upscaled. That's why the emulator is much sharper. My personal opinion is that it's way too sharp: no AA and no texture filtering combine with the low-poly assets to make it a shimmery mess in motion, even at very high resolution. I think the Pro version goes too far in the other direction, but it feels much more solid and grounded in motion, even given a lot less image precision.
Aside from my own take on the effort, there's objectively a lot going on here that Digital Foundry did not mention. Lately it seems like they're not closely observing nuances of graphical detail, and even missing or omitting stuff from their analyses. I know they're stretched thin across all releases, but it's disappointing when the foremost technical source for console games is unreliable.
To begin with the textures, the video does point out the refiltering work, and addition of normal and specular maps. For some reason only the article and not the video mentions the occasional textures that have been significantly redone. This is despite the fact that several fully-redone examples are visible in the video itself; the side-by-side shot below shows both kinds of update. The high-frequency detail across and especially under the arch is a clear addition, while more simply reworked textures are used elsewhere.
These texture changes are also obvious in the next shot (though DF calls them "pretty subtle"), which showcases another improvement: the addition of dynamic lighting. Digital Foundry do mention "reworked lighting" as "more areas covered in shade" and additional shadows "cast by environmental objects", but there's more to it than that.
The vague atmospheric blue in the PS2 version is cut by a strong shadow on PS4. This is due to a pillar just off screen, and the light source is a big lamp located across the room. Such self-consistent source lighting directionality does not occur in the original game. Neither does environmental bounce lighting, which is present on PS4.
Note how the sand's tones are reflected on Vaan's right arm and leg, and the inside of his left leg, but he's more neutral in hue where the ground wouldn't be reflecting. This is clearly not just color grading applied to the whole area, but dynamic illumination.
Digital Foundry also didn't notice or bring up the occasional texture alignment fixes posted by Shin-Ra earlier in the thread. Nor do they seem to have noticed the reduction of the water distortion effects on PS4. This is hard to convey in a still shot, but on PS2 (left side), waves refract the objects behind them strongly. Focus on the wake of the left rat, bending the tile floor's lines, or the wavery legs of the right rat.
This effect isn't completely absent on PS4--see Vaan's left foot--but it's much weaker and doesn't look as convincing. There may also be better wave geometry on PS2, but I can't be certain given the extremely small amount of water footage in the video. (Note that this reduced distortion contrasts with the increased heat haze in the desert, which DF also didn't mention.)
Also, I noticed a single scene where it appears that some background art may have been redrawn entirely for Zodiac Age. Look at the farthest building in this comparison.
This could potentially be an LOD issue, with the PS4 version simply displaying a more detailed version of the building. However, the changes seem less like increased detail and more like alterations of aspect. I suspect that the furthest-off layers of FF XII levels are 2D images, so they don't have to be rendered as geometry. I believe that background was redrawn in this case. Given the limited material in this video, I can't say whether this occurs elsewhere, but it's definitely possible. (Or I could be wrong about what's happening here.)
Finally, Digital Foundry have this to say about the game's depth-of-field effect: "Depth of field is also deployed more liberally across gameplay and cutscenes." That's the entirety of the article's detail, and the video only expands by saying the greater use doesn't feel out of place. For some reason, it goes entirely unstated that the DOF effect on PS4 is heavily improved.
Here's a shot from the original, showing that both motion blur and DOF effects were accomplished through displaced repetitions of scene geometry.
Note the slight echoes northwest of the balcony and Vaan's head, remnants of the camera motion in this cutscene. Behind Vaan, the far edge of the platform is "out of focus" in much the same way, with a (stronger) doubled overlay of its own geometry. The DOF here isn't terribly realistic: with both close foreground and far background sharp, it doesn't make much sense for "slightly farther background" to be blurry.
Contrast this with PS4 below, which begins with only the balcony sharp, then racks focus believably to Vaan, sharpening the whole background and mildly blurring the foreground. (The shot is animated, with a long delay.) Not only is the effect more grounded in optical reality, but the DOF effect is a true blur. Even through the compression of the GIF you can easily see the enhanced smooth and natural look.
So to sum up, in their analysis of Zodiac Age, Digital Foundry didn't describe or display in full detail:
- the full range of improvements to textures (written, but not shown)
- improvements to lighting, including fully lit scenes and environmental bounce lighting
- big improvements to the DOF effect, apart from it just being more common
They did not mention at all:
- highly increased draw distance for geometry and lighting
- lack of downsampling for PS4 Pro on 1080p displays (though it may not matter much)
- occasional texture alignment fixes on PS4
- reduction of water distortion effects on PS4
- increase of heat distortion effects on PS4
- (rare?) revamped backgrounds on PS4
- menus on PS4 run at 60fps
There may be more details from the full game, since all this comes from their video alone. As it's culled wholly from the first few hours of the game, and presents less than 10 minutes of unique scenes from that slice, there remains a great deal of game unexamined.
I've now watched the video in full, and you're incorrect. It's true that the NPC fade-in is unchanged. However, apart from that PS4 actually eliminates a lot of pop-in from the PS2 (and PC-emulated) versions. Though the video only shows a handful of scenes overall, the effect can be seen across several each in the city and the desert. As with the small plant, sometimes the objects are just missing. Note below the trees and plants only visible on PS4, even well off into the distance. (The comparison is with emulation, but it's not an error; the same low draw distance is on actual PS2 as well.)
Other times, objects are flat sprites until nearby on PS2, whereas they're always 3D models on PS4. Below, look at the potted palm in the distance of the first (PS4) shot, which on PS2 doesn't begin to transition until much closer; you can see it mid-transition with only the leading edge being geometry in the second shot. Mesh detail isn't all that has a higher viewing distance. These shots also show that the column on the right is lit the whole time on PS4, but that edge lighting still hasn't appeared on PS2, even as close as Vaan is. It comes in just after this, again far closer than on PS4.
The lack of downsampling in this particular title is probably unnoticeable for almost everyone. See my comparison earlier in the thread.
No, the emulator shot is native 4K whereas the PS4 Pro shot is 1440p upscaled. That's why the emulator is much sharper. My personal opinion is that it's way too sharp: no AA and no texture filtering combine with the low-poly assets to make it a shimmery mess in motion, even at very high resolution. I think the Pro version goes too far in the other direction, but it feels much more solid and grounded in motion, even given a lot less image precision.
Aside from my own take on the effort, there's objectively a lot going on here that Digital Foundry did not mention. Lately it seems like they're not closely observing nuances of graphical detail, and even missing or omitting stuff from their analyses. I know they're stretched thin across all releases, but it's disappointing when the foremost technical source for console games is unreliable.
To begin with the textures, the video does point out the refiltering work, and addition of normal and specular maps. For some reason only the article and not the video mentions the occasional textures that have been significantly redone. This is despite the fact that several fully-redone examples are visible in the video itself; the side-by-side shot below shows both kinds of update. The high-frequency detail across and especially under the arch is a clear addition, while more simply reworked textures are used elsewhere.
These texture changes are also obvious in the next shot (though DF calls them "pretty subtle"), which showcases another improvement: the addition of dynamic lighting. Digital Foundry do mention "reworked lighting" as "more areas covered in shade" and additional shadows "cast by environmental objects", but there's more to it than that.
The vague atmospheric blue in the PS2 version is cut by a strong shadow on PS4. This is due to a pillar just off screen, and the light source is a big lamp located across the room. Such self-consistent source lighting directionality does not occur in the original game. Neither does environmental bounce lighting, which is present on PS4.
Note how the sand's tones are reflected on Vaan's right arm and leg, and the inside of his left leg, but he's more neutral in hue where the ground wouldn't be reflecting. This is clearly not just color grading applied to the whole area, but dynamic illumination.
Digital Foundry also didn't notice or bring up the occasional texture alignment fixes posted by Shin-Ra earlier in the thread. Nor do they seem to have noticed the reduction of the water distortion effects on PS4. This is hard to convey in a still shot, but on PS2 (left side), waves refract the objects behind them strongly. Focus on the wake of the left rat, bending the tile floor's lines, or the wavery legs of the right rat.
This effect isn't completely absent on PS4--see Vaan's left foot--but it's much weaker and doesn't look as convincing. There may also be better wave geometry on PS2, but I can't be certain given the extremely small amount of water footage in the video. (Note that this reduced distortion contrasts with the increased heat haze in the desert, which DF also didn't mention.)
Also, I noticed a single scene where it appears that some background art may have been redrawn entirely for Zodiac Age. Look at the farthest building in this comparison.
This could potentially be an LOD issue, with the PS4 version simply displaying a more detailed version of the building. However, the changes seem less like increased detail and more like alterations of aspect. I suspect that the furthest-off layers of FF XII levels are 2D images, so they don't have to be rendered as geometry. I believe that background was redrawn in this case. Given the limited material in this video, I can't say whether this occurs elsewhere, but it's definitely possible. (Or I could be wrong about what's happening here.)
Finally, Digital Foundry have this to say about the game's depth-of-field effect: "Depth of field is also deployed more liberally across gameplay and cutscenes." That's the entirety of the article's detail, and the video only expands by saying the greater use doesn't feel out of place. For some reason, it goes entirely unstated that the DOF effect on PS4 is heavily improved.
Here's a shot from the original, showing that both motion blur and DOF effects were accomplished through displaced repetitions of scene geometry.
Note the slight echoes northwest of the balcony and Vaan's head, remnants of the camera motion in this cutscene. Behind Vaan, the far edge of the platform is "out of focus" in much the same way, with a (stronger) doubled overlay of its own geometry. The DOF here isn't terribly realistic: with both close foreground and far background sharp, it doesn't make much sense for "slightly farther background" to be blurry.
Contrast this with PS4 below, which begins with only the balcony sharp, then racks focus believably to Vaan, sharpening the whole background and mildly blurring the foreground. (The shot is animated, with a long delay.) Not only is the effect more grounded in optical reality, but the DOF effect is a true blur. Even through the compression of the GIF you can easily see the enhanced smooth and natural look.
So to sum up, in their analysis of Zodiac Age, Digital Foundry didn't describe or display in full detail:
- the full range of improvements to textures (written, but not shown)
- improvements to lighting, including fully lit scenes and environmental bounce lighting
- big improvements to the DOF effect, apart from it just being more common
They did not mention at all:
- highly increased draw distance for geometry and lighting
- lack of downsampling for PS4 Pro on 1080p displays (though it may not matter much)
- occasional texture alignment fixes on PS4
- reduction of water distortion effects on PS4
- increase of heat distortion effects on PS4
- (rare?) revamped backgrounds on PS4
- menus on PS4 run at 60fps
There may be more details from the full game, since all this comes from their video alone. As it's culled wholly from the first few hours of the game, and presents less than 10 minutes of unique scenes from that slice, there remains a great deal of game unexamined.
Thank you for your detailed analysis! It is clear that a lot of work has been put into the game.
FantasticMrFoxdie
Mumber
Looks amazing :O
I have too many damn RPGs to play lol
I have too many damn RPGs to play lol
Great post, thanks for going into further detail.
Soodanim
Gold Member
I imagine I'd get used to the strong DoF, especially when it's among the many other improvements (graphical and otherwise) that have been made. But I'm in the camp that prefers the look of the emulated version's sharpness. Maybe when the PC port comes (it's obviously coming) we'll be able to tweak it.
AcademicSaucer
Member
It could be that Pro support costs money and the ROI doesnt make sense for the publishers
Is the soundtrack so massively different?
KainXVIII
Member
KyanMehwulfe
Member
So far the game looks absolutely gorgeous. I mean, there are a lot of surfaces or NPCs where they clearly look PS2 era, but maybe because of the original vibrancy and texture detail of things like walls and rugs and patterns, the game really looks gorgeous all cleaned up in HD. It's pretty awesome what they got out of the PS2 and I think even as a big XII fan there is probably some art that when underappreciated off in the distance. Some of the distant walls or the interior rugs and sundries behind merchant desks, for example. Just a gorgeous and detailed art style.
XII's art style was definitely not served by the PS2 in the way that Kingdom Hearts' was.
At 480i all that detail they put in sometimes became a pixelly mess, but here it shines.
Similar threads
- Poll
- Poll