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Digital Foundry: Nintendo Switch CPU and GPU clock speeds revealed

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If anyone actually thought this, with all the rumors going back at least a year that it was a hybrid portable device, then they only have themselves to blame for their disappointment. It's an NVidia tablet. You say it's not quite a PS4Pro? Shock of shocks.
For a good while it was known to be just as powerful as the xbone (or really close)rather than the PS4. Not that many people expected it to be much less powerful than the Xbox one actually.
Ok but wtf is this then?

Nintendo%20Switch_confirmedPublishers1.jpg
Wii U was the same in the beginning btw.
 

ultrazilla

Gold Member
I mean, I hope people here aren't expecting the January reveal to get into the nitty gritty of specs. When has Nintendo ever done that?

You'll see gameplay fro sure, but all it will do is further add confusion because we'll be seeing the graphical fidelity of launch software, which is proven time and time again to be completely indicative of a platform's power.

I get that. Nintendo generally never focuses on tech specs in their presentations. However, I'm assuming they will most likely release specs-perhaps with cooperation with Nvidia(whom Nintendo might let handle all the tech talk anyways). It would make sense. Let Nintendo focus on games along with third party support and Nvidia can handle the specs/PR with the tech. It's a win/win.

Either way, it's going to be more powerful than a Wii U and thus Day 1 for me. :)
 

Easy_D

never left the stone age
So all the Western third-parties will completely ignore it then.

Disappointed, but not surprised. Hopefully the Japanese third-party support will thrive there.

Will still buy at launch.

Eh, if you cared about western third parties you'd already have a platform to play those games on to begin with and a platform that was always guaranteed to do it better anyway.
 

Oregano

Member
To all the naysayers, I guess I'm not seeing how any other choice Nintendo has could be better for them as a company.

Option 1 - They release a new system that directly competes against the PS4/XBO/PC. Since this market is already heavily contested AND is shrinking over time, chance of failure is very high.

Option 2 - They release a portable system with specs that rival the PS4/XBO. Battery life is short & cost is too high to compete. Chance of failure almost guaranteed.

Option 3 - They give up hardware entirely and become a 3rd party developer. They lose huge sources of revenue from licensing & royalties.

Option 4 - They do what they're doing with the Switch. They win the handheld market by virtue of being the only handheld competitor. They try to steal back mobile gamers with their mobile initiatives like Pokemon Go & Super Mario Run. And they try to steal gamers from the XBO/PS4/PC crowd that don't care about cunning edge graphics & would rather have a strong exclusive library & the option to go portable.

Whether or not it succeeds, remains to be seen, but what they're doing seems like the option with the best chance of success.

They could have gone with Option 4 without A) horrendously downclocking the hardware or B) Having it require a fan in portable mode that will kill the battery.
 

RoyalFool

Banned
Pretty much done with Nintendo in this case, I remember when they released hardware because it was the only way for them to create what they had envisioned, Miyamoto frequently said he designed the consoles and controller around a flag-ship title.

This console offers absolutely nothing I didn't already have with the Wii U and 3DS, so unless you are going to push the graphic envelope a lot why even bother.
 

Shpeshal Nick

aka Collingwood
Were people really expecting this to be much more powerful (if at all) than the WiiU? Yeah that was never going to happen.

Back when I was all aboard the hybrid train I was saying this thing will be about the same power as the WiiU, maybe a bit more because to was going to be a portable that could play on a TV. Anyone expecting more while also expecting decent battery life and a device that wouldn't burn your hands off were just...I dunno. I don't wanna say crazy, but yeah, a bit crazy.
 

AzaK

Member
I'd also say that being so quiet on Switch for so long, inevitably means we get leaks like this and it starts to paint a bad picture. Now Nintendo might not care of gamers look down on it and tune-out of Switch before it's released, but it does set a bad narrative running about the new machine.

Were people really expecting this to be much more powerful (if at all) than the WiiU? Yeah that was never going to happen.

Back when I was all aboard the hybrid train I was saying this thing will be about the same power as the WiiU, maybe a bit more because to was going to be a portable that could play on a TV. Anyone expecting more while also expecting decent battery life and a device that wouldn't burn your hands off were just...I dunno. I don't wanna say crazy, but yeah, a bit crazy.

Thing is, using basic architecture it could have been WAY more powerful than Wii U. Of course we need to wait to see how many SMs it has.
 

Sami+

Member
maybe you should consider things out of just graphics, have you seen the physics and the size of breath of the wild? if thats not pushing bundaries i dont know what is

I watched the Jimmy Fallon thing and a decent amount of E3 footage, but haven't kept up because it doesn't look like my kind of game.

I disagree though. It looks acceptable at best to me. Some cute gameplay ideas but nothing that made me say wow.
 
Excellent analysis as always, and I agree with that conclusion regarding the fan, though I'm starting to expect that I'll be disappointed again regardless of what I'm hoping for.

But another thing to consider is LKD's report that there is an additional fan in the dock. I know the patent didn't support that report but the patent was filed in June, and adding a fan to the dock is certainly a possible change from the patented specification. 2 fans would be a ridiculous amount of overkill if the clock rates listed are being ascribed to TX1 hardware.

Also, consider the DF article did mention that it's likely that some of the customizations to the SoC were from the Pascal architecture, so it's still certainly possible this will be on a 16nm process. Unlikely I'd say at this point, but possible.

If it turns out to be 16nm, does that give more room for his four cases? Like using the node to increase available SMs over clock speeds.
 

antibolo

Banned
Eh, if you cared about western third parties you'd already have a platform to play those games on to begin with and a platform that was always guaranteed to do it better anyway.

I would have loved to play western AAA games on the go. Even with considerable graphical downgrades compared to PS4/Xbone.

But now the gap is too big for those western devs to even consider it, so the dream is dead.
 
That's at least the tenth time I see you posting that, I can feel your exhaustion from your posts lol.

It's the same thing in every Switch thread though. People come in saying "lol I can't believe you guys thought it was PS4+ levels" without actually pointing out anyone who has ever said that...

I can understand why he keeps calling them out, I'm getting a bit frustrated from all of this too.
 
I am curious why did 3rd parties flock to the Wii tho. There were many Wii exclusive 3rd party games.

Were first few years sales that good? Were they on board from the beginning?

Using wikipedia right now, so many were on board the first months before they even knew how good sales were gonna be.

So what made them flock before they knew it was gonna be a hit?

And looking now, the Wii had alot of 3rd party support for multi platform games. I already knew this but I didnt realize it was this good...some games I didnt even realize came out for it.

And it wasnt all shovelware.

It's hard to say how much was based on speculation or what drove them to the system in the first place, but if the games that released early on all flopped many of the projects that were planned or in the early phases would have just been canceled or w/e. Regardless of whether or not the system itself was a hit, because I don't think anyone saw it becoming as huge as it was; but the system proved to be viable enough to where third party games could sell and succeed on it and that's why even years into its life it was still getting support.

I think we could see something "similar" with Switch in regards to many third parties being on board now or having projects or plans on what to bring to the system.. but if the initial efforts or third party games flop and prove that they just can't compete with what Nintendo is bringing onto the platform they'll move on and it'll be just Nintendo supporting itself again.
 

Matbtz

Member
I haven't had time to read through every response here, so I'm probably repeating what others have already said, but here are my thoughts on the matter, anyway:

CPU Clock

This isn't really surprising, given (as predicted) CPU clocks stay the same between portable and docked mode to make sure games don't suddenly become CPU limited when running in portable mode.

The overall performance really depends on the core configuration. An octo-core A72 setup at 1GHz would be pretty damn close to PS4's 1.6GHZ 8-core Jaguar CPU. I don't necessarily expect that, but a 4x A72 + 4x A53 @ 1GHz should certainly be able to provide "good enough" performance for ports, and wouldn't be at all unreasonable to expect.

Memory Clock

This is also pretty much as expected as 1.6GHz is pretty much the standard LPDDR4 clock speed (which I guess confirms LPDDR4, not that there was a huge amount of doubt). Clocking down in portable mode is sensible, as lower resolution means smaller framebuffers means less bandwidth needed, so they can squeeze out a bit of extra battery life by cutting it down.

Again, though, the clock speed is only one factor. There are two other things that can come into play here. The second factor, obviously enough, is the bus width of the memory. Basically, you're either looking at a 64 bit bus, for 25.6GB/s, or a 128 bit bus, for 51.2GB/s of bandwidth. The third is any embedded memory pools or cache that are on-die with the CPU and GPU. Nintendo hasn't shied away from large embedded memory pools or cache before (just look at the Wii U's CPU, its GPU, the 3DS SoC, the n3DS SoC, etc., etc.), so it would be quite out of character for them to avoid such customisations this time around. Nvidia's GPU architectures from Maxwell onwards use tile-based rendering, which allows them to use on-die caches to reduce main memory bandwidth consumption, which ties in quite well with Nintendo's habits in this regard. Something like a 4MB L3 victim cache (similar to what Apple uses on their A-series SoCs) could potentially reduce bandwidth requirements by quite a lot, although it's extremely difficult to quantify the precise benefit.

GPU Clock

This is where things get a lot more interesting. To start off, the relationship between the two clock speeds is pretty much as expected. With a target of 1080p in docked mode and 720p in undocked mode, there's a 2.25x difference in pixels to be rendered, so a 2.5x difference in clock speeds would give developers a roughly equivalent amount of GPU performance per pixel in both modes.

Once more, though, and perhaps most importantly in this case, any interpretation of the clock speeds themselves is entirely dependent on the configuration of the GPU, namely the number of SMs (also ROPs, front-end blocks, etc, but we'll assume that they're kept in sensible ratios).

Case 1: 2 SMs - Docked: 384 GF FP32 / 768 GF FP16 - Portable: 153.6 GF FP32 / 307.2 GF FP16

I had generally been assuming that 2 SMs was the most likely configuration (as, I believe, had most people), simply on the basis of allowing for the smallest possible SoC which could meet Nintendo's performance goals. I'm not quite so sure now, for a number of reasons.

Firstly, if Nintendo were to use these clocks with a 2 SM configuration (assuming 20nm), then why bother with active cooling? The Pixel C runs a passively cooled TX1, and although people will be quick to point out that Pixel C throttles its GPU clocks while running for a prolonged time due to heat output, there are a few things to be aware of with Pixel C. Firstly, there's a quad-core A57 CPU cluster at 1.9GHz running alongside it, which on 20nm will consume a whopping 7.39W when fully clocked. Switch's CPU might be expected to only consume around 1.5W, by comparison. Secondly, although I haven't been able to find any decent analysis of Pixel C's GPU throttling, the mentions of it I have found indicate that, although it does throttle, the drop in performance is relatively small, and as it's clocked about 100MHz above Switch to begin with it may only be throttling down to a 750MHz clock or so even under prolonged workloads. There is of course the fact that Pixel C has an aluminium body to allow for easier thermal dissipation, but it likely would have been cheaper (and mechanically much simpler) for Nintendo to adopt the same approach, rather than active cooling.

Alternatively, we can think of it a different way. If Switch has active cooling, then why clock so low? Again assuming 20nm, we know that a full 1GHz clock shouldn't be a problem for active cooling, even with a very small quiet fan, given the Shield TV (which, again, uses a much more power-hungry CPU than Switch). Furthermore, if they wanted a 2.5x ratio between the two clock speeds, that would give a 400MHz clock in portable mode. We know that the TX1, with 2 SMs on 20nm, consumes 1.51W (GPU only) when clocked at about 500MHz. Even assuming that that's a favourable demo for the TX1, at 20% lower clock speed I would be surprised if a 400MHz 2 SM GPU would consume any more than 1.5W. That's obviously well within the bounds for passive cooling, but even being very conservative with battery consumption it shouldn't be an issue. The savings from going from 400MHz to 300MHz would perhaps only increase battery life by about 5-10% tops, which makes it puzzling why they'd turn down the extra performance.

Finally, the recently published Switch patent application actually explicitly talks about running the fan at a lower RPM while in portable mode, and doesn't even mention the possibility of turning it off while running in portable mode. A 2 SM 20nm Maxwell GPU at ~300MHz shouldn't require a fan at all, and although it's possible that they've changed their mind since filing the patent in June, it begs the question of why they would even consider running the fan in portable mode if their target performance was anywhere near this.

Case 2: 3 SMs - Docked: 576 GF FP32 / 1,152 GF FP16 - Portable: 230.4 GF FP32 / 460.8 GF FP16

This is a bit closer to the performance level we've been led to expect, and it does make a little bit of sense from the perspective of giving a little bit over TX1 performance at lower power consumption. (It also matches reports of overclocked TX1s in early dev kits, as you'd need to clock a bit over the standard 1GHz to reach docked performance here.) Active cooling while docked makes sense for a 3 SM GPU at 768MHz, although wouldn't be needed in portable mode. It still leaves the question of why not use 1GHz/400MHz clocks, as even with 3 SMs they should be able to get by with passive cooling at 400MHz, and battery consumption shouldn't be that much of an issue.

Case 3: 4 SMs - Docked: 768 GF FP32 / 1,536 GF FP16 - Portable: 307.2 GF FP32 / 614.4 GF FP16

This would be on the upper limit of what's been expected, performance wise, and the clock speeds start to make more sense at this point, as portable power consumption for the GPU would be around the 2W mark, so further clock increases may start to effect battery life a bit too much (not that 400-500MHz would be impossible from that point of view, though). Active cooling would be necessary in docked mode, but still shouldn't be needed in portable mode (except perhaps if they go with a beefier CPU config than expected).

Case 4: More than 4 SMs

I'd consider this pretty unlikely, but just from the point of view of "what would you have to do to actually need active cooling in portable mode at these clocks", something like 6 SMs would probably do it (1.15 TF FP32/2.3 TF FP16 docked, 460 GF FP32/920 GF FP16 portable), but I wouldn't count on that. For one, it's well beyond the performance levels that reliable-so-far journalists have told us to expect, but it would also require a much larger die than would be typical for a portable device like this (still much smaller than PS4/XBO SoCs, but that's a very different situation).

TL:DR

Each of these numbers are only a single variable in the equation, and we need to know things like CPU configuration, memory bus width, embedded memory pools, number of GPU SMs, etc. to actually fill out the rest of those equations to get the relevant info. Even on the worst end of the spectrum, we're still getting by far the most ambitious portable that Nintendo's ever released, which also doubles as a home console that's noticeably higher performing than Wii U, which is fine by me.

Great post as always Thraktor.
Look forward to know more after the January event !
 

aBarreras

Member
I watched the Jimmy Fallon thing and a decent amount of E3 footage, but haven't kept up because it doesn't look like my kind of game.

I disagree though. It looks acceptable at best to me. Some cute gameplay ideas but nothing that made me say wow.

i also think it looks acceptable
 

killroy87

Member
I get that. Nintendo generally never focuses on tech specs in their presentations. However, I'm assuming they will most likely release specs-perhaps with cooperation with Nvidia(whom Nintendo might let handle all the tech talk anyways). It would make sense. Let Nintendo focus on games along with third party support and Nvidia can handle the specs/PR with the tech. It's a win/win.

Either way, it's going to be more powerful than a Wii U and thus Day 1 for me. :)

Heard that!
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
Don't need the fan for 20nm either, really, not at these reported clocks.

I was thinking that maybe the tablet is too thin and it's getting hotter than a Shield TV or Pixel C. Still strange, but somehow explainable.

That's at least the tenth time I see you posting that, I can feel your exhaustion from your posts lol.

But really, nobody is asking for a portable PS4 at $200. Nobody. There are some insane people hoping to be at Xbone or above levels, but nothing about the price. That's it. It's ridiculous.
 

KAL2006

Banned
They could have gone with Option 4 without A) horrendously downclocking the hardware or B) Having it require a fan in portable mode that will kill the battery.

I'm sure Nintendo would have done this if it was acheivable after all it is the same chip but downclocked.

Perhaps the fan is turned off in portable mode or runs low which doesn't affect battery too much.
 

Lonely1

Unconfirmed Member
So many drive by's shit posts...

And this is why Sony never released the Vita's clocks, BTW. They managed to keep the illusion of a portable PS3 with a 28Gflops handheld (with wifi disabled) for the whole year they cared about the system.
 
To all the naysayers, I guess I'm not seeing how any other choice Nintendo has could be better for them as a company.

Option 1 - They release a new system that directly competes against the PS4/XBO/PC. Since this market is already heavily contested AND is shrinking over time, chance of failure is very high.

Option 2 - They release a portable system with specs that rival the PS4/XBO. Battery life is short & cost is too high to compete. Chance of failure almost guaranteed.

Option 3 - They give up hardware entirely and become a 3rd party developer. They lose huge sources of revenue from licensing & royalties.

Option 4 - They do what they're doing with the Switch. They win the handheld market by virtue of being the only handheld competitor. They try to steal back mobile gamers with their mobile initiatives like Pokemon Go & Super Mario Run. And they try to steal gamers from the XBO/PS4/PC crowd that don't care about cunning edge graphics & would rather have a strong exclusive library & the option to go portable.

Whether or not it succeeds, remains to be seen, but what they're doing seems like the option with the best chance of success.

Absolutely. What they're doing is all they could do. I don't know why I was expecting some special sauce, but the hardware is what it is.

Nintendo's problem is software. They couldn't make enough games for the WiiU. Their Switch development tools are the real story, not the actual consumer product. They just need to be able to make games again.
 

Seik

Banned
That was for the 3DS this was the wiiU

11x06171253.jpg

Wow, I didn't remember that.

That's a lot less than what we got with the Switch. (Also, Tetris Online? Haha!)

I mean, even if all third parties leave after a game or two, it'll still be a fucking better launch than the U. :lol
 

jroc74

Phone reception is more important to me than human rights
2 years of solid solid hype. Heck, Nintendo took the system out on tour months in advance and had people trying our Wii Sports and the word of mouth on that game alone was huge.

It's hard to say how much was based on speculation or what drove them to the system in the first place, but if the games that released early on all flopped many of the projects that were planned or in the early phases would have just been canceled or w/e. Regardless of whether or not the system itself was a hit, because I don't think anyone saw it becoming as huge as it was; but the system proved to be viable enough to where third party games could sell and succeed on it and that's why even years into its life it was still getting support.

I think we could see something "similar" with Switch in regards to many third parties being on board now or having projects or plans on what to bring to the system.. but if the initial efforts or third party games flop and prove that they just can't compete with what Nintendo is bringing onto the platform they'll move on and it'll be just Nintendo supporting itself again.

Ok, all this makes sense.
 
The games will speak for themselves.
But one question on this other gobbly gook:
In portable mode, does it seem like the Switch will be more capable than the Wii U, less capable or around the same???
 
Excellent analysis as always, and I agree with that conclusion regarding the fan, though I'm starting to expect that I'll be disappointed again regardless of what I'm hoping for.

But another thing to consider is LKD's report that there is an additional fan in the dock. I know the patent didn't support that report but the patent was filed in June, and adding a fan to the dock is certainly a possible change from the patented specification. 2 fans would be a ridiculous amount of overkill if the clock rates listed are being ascribed to TX1 hardware.

Also, consider the DF article did mention that it's likely that some of the customizations to the SoC were from the Pascal architecture, so it's still certainly possible this will be on a 16nm process. Unlikely I'd say at this point, but possible.

If I recall correctly, the dock in the patent doesn't have its own fan, but the fan that it is the system speeds up when it docks.
 

LordKano

Member
It's the same thing in every Switch thread though. People come in saying "lol I can't believe you guys thought it was PS4+ levels" without actually pointing out anyone who has ever said that...

I can understand why he keeps calling them out, I'm getting a bit frustrated from all of this too.

But really, nobody is asking for a portable PS4 at $200. Nobody. There are some insane people hoping to be at Xbone or above levels, but nothing about the price. That's it. It's ridiculous.

Yeah I know, these are just people willing to show how smart they are, by knowing what everyone knew since months. I'd say it's just not worth it to lose time with that kind of people.
 
If it turns out to be 16nm, does that give more room for his four cases? Like using the node to increase available SMs over clock speeds.

I remember reading that 16nm barely increases transistor density, so I don't think you'd have much more space. But what it does do is increase performance per watt, so you'd wind up needing less power (and generating less heat) to get the same amount of performance as on 20nm.

If I recall correctly, the dock in the patent doesn't have its own fan, but the fan that it is the system speeds up when it docks.

Yeah this is what the patent says. However, several things have changed since the patent was filed in June, such as the shape and configuration of the dock itself. So it wouldn't surprise me if they also added a fan to the dock since then. The final unit doesn't have to line up 1:1 with the patent.
 

Rana507

Neo Member
This machine cannot attempt to go head to head vs the PS4/XB1, the result will be subpar ports everywhere. It should go with a similar approach to the 3DS, lots of original games that could only be found on the Switch, it´s key to have lots of it, not like the WiiU that released games with big time frames between them, Nintendo will need third party support but for original IPs, If they do that they have a chance, look at how well the 3DS sells, it´s not because of it´s power but because of it´s extensive library of great games..
 

Oregano

Member
I'm sure Nintendo would have done this if it was acheivable after all it is the same chip but downclocked.

Perhaps the fan is turned off in portable mode or runs low which doesn't affect battery too much.

Well I would have either preferred something more powerful or a smaller, fanless design with better battery life. This is like the worst situation possible.
 

Kssio_Aug

Member
To all the naysayers, I guess I'm not seeing how any other choice Nintendo has could be better for them as a company.

Option 1 - They release a new system that directly competes against the PS4/XBO/PC. Since this market is already heavily contested AND is shrinking over time, chance of failure is very high.

Option 2 - They release a portable system with specs that rival the PS4/XBO. Battery life is short & cost is too high to compete. Chance of failure almost guaranteed.

Option 3 - They give up hardware entirely and become a 3rd party developer. They lose huge sources of revenue from licensing & royalties.

Option 4 - They do what they're doing with the Switch. They win the handheld market by virtue of being the only handheld competitor. They try to steal back mobile gamers with their mobile initiatives like Pokemon Go & Super Mario Run. And they try to steal gamers from the XBO/PS4/PC crowd that don't care about cunning edge graphics & would rather have a strong exclusive library & the option to go portable.

Whether or not it succeeds, remains to be seen, but what they're doing seems like the option with the best chance of success.

Great point, and I agree completly. We cannot say they're gonna score with Switch, but their chances are bigger than just common sense (better hardware = better 3rd party suppport = better success chances). Cause things are, sadly, not that simplistic.
 

Zedark

Member
So I guess that kills the Dark Souls 3 rumor.

Or the Dark Souls 3 rumour kills this rumour, depends on who you would rather believe. Alternatively, neither kills the other, due to the DF rumour not being a complete power reveal.

Read the excellent post #2358 by Thraktor for the questions that remain about the power of the chip in the Switch after the DF rumour.
 

AniHawk

Member
This machine cannot attempt to go head to head vs the PS4/XB1, the result will be subpar ports everywhere. It should go with a similar approach to the 3DS, lots of original games that could only be found on the Switch, it´s key to have lots of it, not like the WiiU that released games with big time frames between them, Nintendo will need third party support but for original IPs, If they do that they have a chance, look at how well the 3DS sells, it´s not because of it´s power but because of it´s extensive library of great games..

considering the situation in japan, the 3ds, not the wii u, should be the expectation for this thing.
 

Vena

Member
I was thinking that maybe the tablet is too thin and it's getting hotter than a Shield TV or Pixel C. Still strange, but somehow explainable.

Don't think that really explains it. Thickness is kind of limited (in thinness) by the joycons and other "holding" metrics on ergonomics, and this thing is definitely thicker than your average tablet. The Pixel C operates A LOT higher on CPU (so thats a huge delta heat source) and it gets by on a passive cooled metal plate backing (though it has a larger surface area).

Numbers don't really make sense right now if the fan is actually used in portable, but the fan doesn't make much sense in general with these specs.
 

Seik

Banned
The games will speak for themselves.
But one question on this other gobbly gook:
In portable mode, does it seem like the Switch will be more capable than the Wii U, less capable or around the same???

It seems to be about the same, though with modern CPU and RAM I expect it to be a bit more powerful than the U, undocked.
 

Peltz

Member
I don't know a lot about tech, but this seems a lot worse than expected.

I guess I don't understand why companies like Take 2, Bethesda, and FROM software have said good things about the Switch? If everyone on here is having meltdowns, why is developer reception so much stronger than it was with the WiiU?

It's still in their interest for Switch to sell well. We saw the same sort of statements from third parties prior to the Wii U's release.
 
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