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Digital Foundry: Nintendo Switch CPU and GPU clock speeds revealed

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ultrazilla

Gold Member
Heard that!


:)

And again I'll point out that people are talking about the fans and why they're needed if the "specs" are like this(which really wouldn't need fans to begin).

The patent for add-on computational devices Nintendo was granted. If they release upgrades via this route instead of full size hardware revisions ala Xbox One S and PS4 Pro, we'll probably need those mysterious fans to kick on when the add on tech increases performance. ;)
 

KAL2006

Banned
Why yes, a good percentage of people would have expected this machine to be much much more powerful than a 2012 console.

But this isn't a console this is a portable. When Vita was released it was substantially weaker than 360/PS3. Same scenario here where Switch is substantially weaker than PS4/XB1.
 
The games will speak for themselves.
But one question on this other gobbly gook:
In portable mode, does it seem like the Switch will be more capable than the Wii U, less capable or around the same???

more

But this isn't a console this is a portable. When Vita was released it was substantially weaker than 360/PS3. Same scenario here where Switch is substantially weaker than PS4/XB1.

This is a console. The only way the design makes sense is if games are first developed for 1080p TVs, then they will for sure be able to scale down to 720p. It's not feasible to go the other way.
 

Mega

Banned
I'm okay with this assuming it's around $200 (but probably $250 for the base model).

It's a 6" 720p portable and I just think there are diminishing returns to having a beast of a console with PS4-level graphics on a smallish screen for on-the-go gameplay sessions. I'm not denying that Pascal with better specs would have been great... but I simply don't see a big downside here. A game like Xenoblade X, BotW, MK8 or Bayo2 on a small tablet feels perfectly right to me.. especially when it's relative to the vastly inferior mobile options out there (upscaled crapware for the most part).

I'm confident Nintendo has tested prototypes with more powerful specs but the battery life was abysmal: "under an hour" abysmal. The slow advancement of battery tech, which we've seen via the worsening battery life of each successive handheld generation, is the one major bottleneck and as such I can hardly blame them for what we're seeing here. Otherwise the handheld may have at least been spec'd as a full speed X1.

What's weird about the negative reactions is that you always hear about people wishing smartphone manufacturers would ease up on the spec wars and produce new phones that focus on phenomenal battery life. This is arguably what Nintendo has tried here. A Wii U+ portable with a rumored 5-9 hours vs. more power (squandered on the type of games they make) with 2-3 hours of battery life.
 
I hope all of this means a cheaper price. Honestly, I was never going to buy any third party games for this. I just want zelda/metroid (let me hope!) so the cheaper the switch is, the better for me.
 

-Eddman-

Member
I'll give the Switch a chance if the games are good and Nintendo finally manages to fix their infamous droughts.

But with those specs, this thing should be cheap. It will be hard to consider a purchase if the price is above $250
 
No, the whole thing is an expensive controller.

Ahm...no.

The conteoller from the Wii U was a clever designed piece of tech. The streaming quality was something completly new but to be honest...no one cared for that shit at all. but it is the reason the cobsole is still that expensive. Look at the GC as comparison, they could sell it for 99 bucks in the end because the components got cheaper because they were used way more often.
 
We all know Nintendo will be able to make this system sing, like they've always done. The question is, how jarring will it be going from docked to undocked and vice versa.
 
Switch is to Wii U as Wii was to Gamecube. Its basically going to be capable of slightly more but nothing exactly earth shattering and basically the same.


I just hope battery life isnt crap. Gimme 5 hours minimum.

So I guess that kills the Dark Souls 3 rumor.

Could still maybe happen 720p (the resolution Switch seems to be targeting) with a few cutbacks and a wobbly framerate.
 

Fredrik

Member
Both would need to be the same thing! Or did you expected 1/2 hour of battery time or a handheld as big as the PS4?
I don't know what I expected really but I certainly expected more.
Going by the specs alone, how does Switch stand against iPhone 7, Galaxy S7 etc?
 

Manoko

Member
I'm very curious to see how they scale it back to run on this platform.

dark_souls_2_-_bad_grjrs9q.png
 

QaaQer

Member
When your only choices for a new portable game console is the Switch, where exactly do you think those Vita fans are going to go? The only other choice is to leave portables entirely & become a mobile fan (which many Japanese gamers have been doing) or become a home-only console fan (which is becoming less & less popular in Japan).

Maybe I'm stereotyping but aren't many Vita games kind of risqué for Nintendo?
 
No, but they said something about Mother 3.
No source is infallible, but there's little reason to doubt these numbers.

An official English version of Mother 3 seems like a no-brainer at this point given all that Nintendo has done with the series recently (Mother 1 official release, Earthbound on both Wii U & 3DS, Mother 3 jokes in Nintendo presentations). I wouldn't be surprised if they made Mother 3 a launch title for the Switch's Virtual Console - give the hardcore fans another reason to jump in ASAP. Makes more sense than releasing it on the Wii u at the end of the system's life.

Maybe I'm stereotyping but aren't many Vita games kind of risqué for Nintendo?

There are plenty of Senran Kagura games on the 3DS. The only time Nintendo seems to care about risque stuff on their systems is when they're the one publishing.
 

Soroc

Member
This is surprising since I didn't know you spoke for all grown ass adults. If this is your personal opinion fine, but you do not speak for anyone but yourself. You mentioning how you and others are "grown ass adults" does not make your opinion/preference any more valid than others.

He said "many of us" not all of us.

He speaks for me
 

Zedark

Member
Thank you for writing this. Very informative.

So GAF, what is the most likely: 2 SMs or 3 SMs ?

Hmm, I'm gonna guess we will have 3 SMs, due to Thraktor's argument that the Switch can run very battery efficiently with 3 SMs at the current clock speed.
 
But this isn't a console this is a portable. When Vita was released it was substantially weaker than 360/PS3. Same scenario here where Switch is substantially weaker than PS4/XB1.
I'm confused, so is Nintendo going to announce their home console soon? That would be very interesting and would immediately get me hyped.
 
It seems to be about the same, though with modern CPU and RAM I expect it to be a bit more powerful than the U, undocked.

CPU should be leagues better. The extra RAM can't be downplayed either. The GPU is some 4 generations newer than the HD4x50 in the Wii U as well.
 
I don't know a lot about tech, but this seems a lot worse than expected.

I guess I don't understand why companies like Take 2, Bethesda, and FROM software have said good things about the Switch? If everyone on here is having meltdowns, why is developer reception so much stronger than it was with the WiiU?

I suppose the good news here is that lower power draw means better battery and cheaper price. I can't help but feel a bit disappointed that base PS4/X1 games will need downgrading for Switch.

Because this time the gimmick does not require additional resources from the developers or a different control layout.

The GPU is weak but it has a modern and know architecture.This time 3rd parties can use their engines to develop games for Nintendo Switch without that much effort.

Imagine you are FROM software and you are releasing Dark Souls 3. They didn't port it to 3ds because you had to design for 2 screens, the resolution was 240p so you couldn't even see anything, the GPU in the 3ds was weird as fuck.
Now imagine the 3ds was like the switch 720p screen, standard controls, weak GPU with known architecture. You would scale that down and try to sell it to a audience of 60 million.
 

Deadbeat

Banned
So many drive by's shit posts...

And this is why Sony never released the Vita's clocks, BTW. They managed to keep the illusion of a portable PS3 with a 28Gflops handheld (with wifi disabled) for the whole year they cared about the system.
You could downgrade games from ps3 levels and get away with it. The switch is already a gen behind ps4/xbone. Now the pro and scoprio are hitting. Third party efforts will either be half assed spinoffs or non existent.
 

gtj1092

Member
Does anyone know if fourthstorm(?) still posts here He's the only person from WUST I'd listen to. He got a lot of hate for his calculations and speculation back then but he seemed to be right on the money.
 

King_Moc

Banned
Would they? Visuals have zip to do with game quality. There are 30 year old games that are superior to games released this year because resolution, aliasing, audio quality, etc have nothing to do with whether a game is enjoyable or not. Look at Pac Man: it's a better video game than most of the games of 2016 and it is as primitive as it gets.

No it isn't. Take the rose tinted specs off. I literally played it a week ago. I managed about 2 minutes on it.

you can apply that logic to every game, on every console

Yes, and there's other consoles that have set standards for what to expect.
 

2+2=5

The Amiga Brotherhood

Honestly I would be very ok with that if that's the price to get souls, skyrim and western open world rpgs in general(even very old ones) on a handheld(i know about gpd win, but i prefer to wait a second or third generation win handheld).
 

Sendou

Member
I haven't had time to read through every response here, so I'm probably repeating what others have already said, but here are my thoughts on the matter, anyway:

CPU Clock

This isn't really surprising, given (as predicted) CPU clocks stay the same between portable and docked mode to make sure games don't suddenly become CPU limited when running in portable mode.

The overall performance really depends on the core configuration. An octo-core A72 setup at 1GHz would be pretty damn close to PS4's 1.6GHZ 8-core Jaguar CPU. I don't necessarily expect that, but a 4x A72 + 4x A53 @ 1GHz should certainly be able to provide "good enough" performance for ports, and wouldn't be at all unreasonable to expect.

Memory Clock

This is also pretty much as expected as 1.6GHz is pretty much the standard LPDDR4 clock speed (which I guess confirms LPDDR4, not that there was a huge amount of doubt). Clocking down in portable mode is sensible, as lower resolution means smaller framebuffers means less bandwidth needed, so they can squeeze out a bit of extra battery life by cutting it down.

Again, though, the clock speed is only one factor. There are two other things that can come into play here. The second factor, obviously enough, is the bus width of the memory. Basically, you're either looking at a 64 bit bus, for 25.6GB/s, or a 128 bit bus, for 51.2GB/s of bandwidth. The third is any embedded memory pools or cache that are on-die with the CPU and GPU. Nintendo hasn't shied away from large embedded memory pools or cache before (just look at the Wii U's CPU, its GPU, the 3DS SoC, the n3DS SoC, etc., etc.), so it would be quite out of character for them to avoid such customisations this time around. Nvidia's GPU architectures from Maxwell onwards use tile-based rendering, which allows them to use on-die caches to reduce main memory bandwidth consumption, which ties in quite well with Nintendo's habits in this regard. Something like a 4MB L3 victim cache (similar to what Apple uses on their A-series SoCs) could potentially reduce bandwidth requirements by quite a lot, although it's extremely difficult to quantify the precise benefit.

GPU Clock

This is where things get a lot more interesting. To start off, the relationship between the two clock speeds is pretty much as expected. With a target of 1080p in docked mode and 720p in undocked mode, there's a 2.25x difference in pixels to be rendered, so a 2.5x difference in clock speeds would give developers a roughly equivalent amount of GPU performance per pixel in both modes.

Once more, though, and perhaps most importantly in this case, any interpretation of the clock speeds themselves is entirely dependent on the configuration of the GPU, namely the number of SMs (also ROPs, front-end blocks, etc, but we'll assume that they're kept in sensible ratios).

Case 1: 2 SMs - Docked: 384 GF FP32 / 768 GF FP16 - Portable: 153.6 GF FP32 / 307.2 GF FP16

I had generally been assuming that 2 SMs was the most likely configuration (as, I believe, had most people), simply on the basis of allowing for the smallest possible SoC which could meet Nintendo's performance goals. I'm not quite so sure now, for a number of reasons.

Firstly, if Nintendo were to use these clocks with a 2 SM configuration (assuming 20nm), then why bother with active cooling? The Pixel C runs a passively cooled TX1, and although people will be quick to point out that Pixel C throttles its GPU clocks while running for a prolonged time due to heat output, there are a few things to be aware of with Pixel C. Firstly, there's a quad-core A57 CPU cluster at 1.9GHz running alongside it, which on 20nm will consume a whopping 7.39W when fully clocked. Switch's CPU might be expected to only consume around 1.5W, by comparison. Secondly, although I haven't been able to find any decent analysis of Pixel C's GPU throttling, the mentions of it I have found indicate that, although it does throttle, the drop in performance is relatively small, and as it's clocked about 100MHz above Switch to begin with it may only be throttling down to a 750MHz clock or so even under prolonged workloads. There is of course the fact that Pixel C has an aluminium body to allow for easier thermal dissipation, but it likely would have been cheaper (and mechanically much simpler) for Nintendo to adopt the same approach, rather than active cooling.

Alternatively, we can think of it a different way. If Switch has active cooling, then why clock so low? Again assuming 20nm, we know that a full 1GHz clock shouldn't be a problem for active cooling, even with a very small quiet fan, given the Shield TV (which, again, uses a much more power-hungry CPU than Switch). Furthermore, if they wanted a 2.5x ratio between the two clock speeds, that would give a 400MHz clock in portable mode. We know that the TX1, with 2 SMs on 20nm, consumes 1.51W (GPU only) when clocked at about 500MHz. Even assuming that that's a favourable demo for the TX1, at 20% lower clock speed I would be surprised if a 400MHz 2 SM GPU would consume any more than 1.5W. That's obviously well within the bounds for passive cooling, but even being very conservative with battery consumption it shouldn't be an issue. The savings from going from 400MHz to 300MHz would perhaps only increase battery life by about 5-10% tops, which makes it puzzling why they'd turn down the extra performance.

Finally, the recently published Switch patent application actually explicitly talks about running the fan at a lower RPM while in portable mode, and doesn't even mention the possibility of turning it off while running in portable mode. A 2 SM 20nm Maxwell GPU at ~300MHz shouldn't require a fan at all, and although it's possible that they've changed their mind since filing the patent in June, it begs the question of why they would even consider running the fan in portable mode if their target performance was anywhere near this.

Case 2: 3 SMs - Docked: 576 GF FP32 / 1,152 GF FP16 - Portable: 230.4 GF FP32 / 460.8 GF FP16

This is a bit closer to the performance level we've been led to expect, and it does make a little bit of sense from the perspective of giving a little bit over TX1 performance at lower power consumption. (It also matches reports of overclocked TX1s in early dev kits, as you'd need to clock a bit over the standard 1GHz to reach docked performance here.) Active cooling while docked makes sense for a 3 SM GPU at 768MHz, although wouldn't be needed in portable mode. It still leaves the question of why not use 1GHz/400MHz clocks, as even with 3 SMs they should be able to get by with passive cooling at 400MHz, and battery consumption shouldn't be that much of an issue.

Case 3: 4 SMs - Docked: 768 GF FP32 / 1,536 GF FP16 - Portable: 307.2 GF FP32 / 614.4 GF FP16

This would be on the upper limit of what's been expected, performance wise, and the clock speeds start to make more sense at this point, as portable power consumption for the GPU would be around the 2W mark, so further clock increases may start to effect battery life a bit too much (not that 400-500MHz would be impossible from that point of view, though). Active cooling would be necessary in docked mode, but still shouldn't be needed in portable mode (except perhaps if they go with a beefier CPU config than expected).

Case 4: More than 4 SMs

I'd consider this pretty unlikely, but just from the point of view of "what would you have to do to actually need active cooling in portable mode at these clocks", something like 6 SMs would probably do it (1.15 TF FP32/2.3 TF FP16 docked, 460 GF FP32/920 GF FP16 portable), but I wouldn't count on that. For one, it's well beyond the performance levels that reliable-so-far journalists have told us to expect, but it would also require a much larger die than would be typical for a portable device like this (still much smaller than PS4/XBO SoCs, but that's a very different situation).

TL:DR

Each of these numbers are only a single variable in the equation, and we need to know things like CPU configuration, memory bus width, embedded memory pools, number of GPU SMs, etc. to actually fill out the rest of those equations to get the relevant info. Even on the worst end of the spectrum, we're still getting by far the most ambitious portable that Nintendo's ever released, which also doubles as a home console that's noticeably higher performing than Wii U, which is fine by me.

Nice post!
 
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