Support NeoGAF

[geordiemp]

Whatever, your choice - enjoy Witcher 4 at 60FPS I'll enjoy real exclusives and stunning looking 1080p games, some of which will run at 60FPS like they do today.

I really would like to understand though how a slower CPU in the PS4 nearly always beats XBO in the frame-rate stakes - the 2 poor examples (AC Unity being the worse coded game ever) aside...pretty much all face-offs show a clear PS4 advantage yet it has the slower CPU.

Easy - Imagine you have a 4 x 100 m baton runner team.

Runner 1 is the GPU
Runner 2 is the CPU
Runner 3 is the bandwidth
Runner 4 is the Memory speed

If any of the runners is crap, your team is in trouble. Remember Xb1 only had 1 runner at 5 % better, and all the other runners were no where near as good as Ps4.

 

[VincentMatts]

The people that are obsessed with performance and graphics don't want this thing to have another fucking Jaguar in it!

The GPU is the real important part though. Thats what makes it or breaks it. And if they wanna make this tech affordable, they have to cut somewhere.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Ps4 players mainly have 1080p30 now on most games compared to our PC overlords..What do you reckon would be THE most asked for upgrade. Go on, have a wild guess !

Well I'm getting bored of the CPU talk! There must be more to Neo when House talks of "premium" and "high-end" and it doesn't sound like it is just specs to me.

In just over a week you will be able to build a 5+TF i3/RX 470 PC for ~$600 or less. A $499 Neo at either spec is going to look outdated in comparison months before launch.

Therefore I think there must be more than a graphics upgrade to Neo. Right?

 

[Swass]

PSVR is going to be pretty supply constrained. it will sell out no matter what. it's a non-issue IMO

Couldn't agree more, and if the Neo launches it too will be a very hot seller.. Sony is in for a very good 2016 holiday season..

 

[geordiemp]

Well I'm getting bored of the CPU talk! There must be more to Neo when House talks of "premium" and "high-end" and it doesn't sound like it is just specs to me.

In just over a week you will be able to build a 5+TF i3/RX 470 PC for ~$600 or less. A $499 Neo at either spec is going to look outdated in comparison months before launch.

Therefore I think there must be more than a graphics upgrade to Neo. Right?

Agree, wish I could get those prices in UK lol

 

[goonergaz]

Easy - Imagine you have a 4 x 100 m baton runner team.

Runner 1 is the GPU
Runner 2 is the CPU
Runner 3 is the bandwidth
Runner 4 is the Memory speed

If any of the runners is crap, your team is in trouble. Remember Xb1 only had 1 runner at 5 % better, and all the other runners were no where near as good as Ps4.

Well I think it was more than 5%, but you agree GPU can improve framerates because essentially the machines are fairly well matched but the GPU is the biggest difference.

CPU ~10% better
BW ~ 20% worse
GPU ~50% worse

Overall if we go buy TF the difference is 40% which is generally the gap in the games...and guess what the potential gap is this time - around the same - not double.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Not really, I just wont buy another console with a Jaguar CPU in it, its that crap.

Then don't. But this narrative of Neo needing Jaguar for any reason is illogical considering the games going to be running on the thing.

 

[chromatic9]

Holy smokes, now we have a group of people who try to sell the idea that Neo is too weak? While Scorpio will be running games at 4k/60fps?

Difference will be mostly 4.2TF vs 6TF with adjusted speeds of Ram. So ~35% in GPU power in favor of Scorpio.

So if we say that Neo is too weak, then so is Scorpio. Also what if Scorpio ended up using Jaguar for compatibility sake, would it still be this mighty powerhouse in your opinion?

It's 44% if we roundup the PS4 to 4.2 or you could say ~44%.

Would be good for Sony if they can get close to 5tf, then it's a 20% difference and not a biggie but MS might be able to go 6.5tf and maybe Sony can only go 4.5tf so still a 45% gap. Who knows, maybe false or conservative specs but MS have a lot of time ahead. Seems many have already issued an upclock on Sony's behalf. Funny how Scorpio is assumed to be 5.5.5.6 and Neo is jumping from 4.14 to 5-5.5.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Not really, I just wont buy another console with a Jaguar CPU in it, its that crap.

Question what if Neo comes with Jaguar but 90% games end up being 60fps .
What are you going to say then .

 

[icespide]

Question what if Neo comes with Jaguar but 90% games end up being 60fps .
What are you going to say then .

are you being facetious or do you actually expect this?

 

[geordiemp]

Well I think it was more than 5%, but you agree GPU can improve framerates because essentially the machines are fairly well matched but the GPU is the biggest difference.

CPU ~10% better
BW ~ 20% worse
GPU ~50% worse

Overall if we go buy TF the difference is 40% which is generally the gap in the games...and guess what the potential gap is this time - around the same - not double.

I tried to explain to you, you just dont get it so I give up. It does not matter if the GPU is 4, 6, 10. 50, 100 TF....

If the CPU is the weak link, as has been suggested in many open world game articles, then that is the limit of your performance, your stuck at 1080p30. If you cant get your head around that, then lets just leave it mate.

Question what if Neo comes with Jaguar but 90% games end up being 60fps .
What are you going to say then .

I will show you a picture of my 3 Neo's and say I never thought that shit CPU could do it. Witcher 3 at 60 FPS, my god, it struggled to run at 30 on my old Ps4 and it was because of the CPU, how did Sony do it with the jaguar , its so slow !

In fact the best way for Sony to sell the Neo is to take the popular poor running CPU limited games and show then at 60 FPS on stage. Witcher 3 and Bloodborne at 60 FPS please. I will eat my hat and buy day 1.

 

[Aceofspades]

It's 44% if we roundup the PS4 to 4.2 or you could say ~44%.

4.2 to 6 difference is 35%

I don't know how you come up with 44%?

 

[goonergaz]

It's 44% if we roundup the PS4 to 4.2 or you could say ~44%.

Would be good for Sony if they can get close to 5tf, then it's a 20% difference and not a biggie but MS might be able to go 6.5tf and maybe Sony can only go 4.5tf so still a 45% gap. Who knows, maybe false or conservative specs but MS have a lot of time ahead. Seems many have already issued an upclock on Sony's behalf. Funny how Scorpio is assumed to be 5.5.5.6 and Neo is jumping from 4.14 to 5-5.5.

who is saying Scorpio is 5.6? Maybe they are talking just the GPU - MS have said the SoC is 6TF so it could be that. With Neo I think the actual number is 4.24 isn't it? The 5.5 comes from the fact the GPU is a 5.5TF downclocked so some are hopeful Sony will run at stock (not going to happen)!

 

[gundamkyoukai]

are you being facetious or do you actually expect this?

Just wondering what his answer will be since 60fps seem to be his thing .
I don't ever expect 60fps on all games until Sony or MS mandate it no matter how much power these new systems have .

EDIT very fair answer geor .

 

[Proelite]

4.2 to 6 difference is 35%

I don't know how you come up with 44%?

4.2 to 6 is 43% increase.

1.31 to 1.84 is 40.5% increase.

 

[goonergaz]

I tried to explain to you, you just dont get it so I give up. It does not matter if the GPU is 4, 6, 10. 50, 100 TF....

If the CPU is the weak link, as has been suggested in many open world game articles, then that is the limit of your performance, your stuck at 1080p30. If you cant get your head around that, then lets just leave it mate.



I will show you a picture of my 3 Neo's and say I never thought that shit CPU could do it.

Witcher 3 at 60 FPS, my god, it struggled to run at 30 on my old Ps4 and it was because of the CPU, how did Sony do it with the jaguar , its so slow !

Open world games are a small section of the games out there - the most popular selling games run at 60FPS - but either way it's what's important to you. I do get it, you just seemed to blanket state Scorpio was 2-3x the power of Neo when it's clearly not. Then you said GPU can't help FPS - which is clearly wrong.

I'm out anyway, time will tell but in the end I like 60FPS but won't forgo the exclusives to get it, and the graphical improvements which you say you won't be able to see will be clear for all to see, there's a clear gap XBO to PS4 so...yeah, the gap PS4 to Neo will be much bigger regardless of your thoughts.

 

[Kiote]

No way Sony lets PSVR and Neo cannibalize each other.

They are the Same Thing. PS Neo is just going to be a PS4 with the VR proccessor box Built in. It might have a slight power boost to allow for higher quality visuals, but it's not going to be a Scorpio. Hell, even the Scorpio isn't going to be what everyone thinks it will be.

These consoles exists for the sole purpose of 4k VR.

 

[icespide]

They are the Same Thing. PS Neo is just going to be a PS4 with the VR proccessor box Built in. It might have a slight power boost to allow for higher quality visuals, but it's not going to be a Scorpio. Hell, even the Scorpio isn't going to be what everyone thinks it will be.

These consoles exists for the sole purpose of 4k VR.

nope

 

[Crimson_Gold]

They are the Same Thing. PS Neo is just going to be a PS4 with the VR proccessor box Built in. It might have a slight power boost to allow for higher quality visuals, but it's not going to be a Scorpio. Hell, even the Scorpio isn't going to be what everyone thinks it will be.

These consoles exists for the sole purpose of 4k VR.

The first part of your statement has been repeatedly been proven false.

 

[RoboPlato]

They are the Same Thing. PS Neo is just going to be a PS4 with the VR proccessor box Built in. It might have a slight power boost to allow for higher quality visuals, but it's not going to be a Scorpio. Hell, even the Scorpio isn't going to be what everyone thinks it will be.

These consoles exists for the sole purpose of 4k VR.

Neo isn't going to have the break out box included. It makes no sense. Then you would need another SKU of PSVR without the box.

 

[mrklaw]

Ps4 players mainly have 1080p30 now on most games compared to our PC overlords..What do you reckon would be THE most asked for upgrade. Go on, have a wild guess !

.

You might not like it, but probably 'better graphics'. Developers don't make 1080p/30 games to spite consumers.

 

[MisterXDTV]

They are the Same Thing. PS Neo is just going to be a PS4 with the VR proccessor box Built in. It might have a slight power boost to allow for higher quality visuals, but it's not going to be a Scorpio. Hell, even the Scorpio isn't going to be what everyone thinks it will be.

These consoles exists for the sole purpose of 4k VR.

What? There's no processor built-in in the Neo for VR

 

[RoboPlato]

Open world games are a small section of the games out there - the most popular selling games run at 60FPS - but either way it's what's important to you. I do get it, you just seemed to blanket state Scorpio was 2-3x the power of Neo when it's clearly not. Then you said GPU can't help FPS - which is clearly wrong.

I'm out anyway, time will tell but in the end I like 60FPS but won't forgo the exclusives to get it, and the graphical improvements which you say you won't be able to see will be clear for all to see, there's a clear gap XBO to PS4 so...yeah, the gap PS4 to Neo will be much bigger regardless of your thoughts.

I would love the CPU to get enough of a boost for non open world/RPGs to get to 60 while allowing for smoother performance and simulation in those larger titles. It doesn't need to be a monster, just better than a slightly upclocked jaguar.

 

[StrongBlackVine]

They are the Same Thing. PS Neo is just going to be a PS4 with the VR proccessor box Built in. It might have a slight power boost to allow for higher quality visuals, but it's not going to be a Scorpio. Hell, even the Scorpio isn't going to be what everyone thinks it will be.

These consoles exists for the sole purpose of 4k VR.

People still belive this shit?

 

[MisterXDTV]

I would love the CPU to get enough of a boost for non open world/RPGs to get to 60 while allowing for smoother performance and simulation in those larger titles. It doesn't need to be a monster, just better than a slightly upclocked jaguar.

That's what I hope as well, I'm hoping for "Zen Lite" whatever that means

 

[geordiemp]

You might not like it, but probably 'better graphics'. Developers don't make 1080p/30 games to spite consumers.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1231777

Nah, everybody said 60, some said 120. Nobody said they wanted better shadows, but I guess thats what we will get cos its cheaper.

 

[icespide]

guys guys....what if the PSVR breakout box IS the neo?

 

[mrklaw]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1231777

Nah, everybody said 60, some said 120. Nobody said they wanted better shadows, but I guess thats what we will get cos its cheaper.

No, it's what you'll get because the wider audience is not neogaf. If neo is underpowered vs Scorpio, and MS pushes for 4K games on Scorpio - then a good way to counter is to push for better quality graphics on neo to make it look better and mitigate the resolute gap. Sony wouldn't recommend 60fps because that doesn't push the graphics and could leave neo games looking visually further behind Scorpio as that is likely to be limited to 4K/30 if they push for native 4K.

 

[geordiemp]

No, it's what you'll get because the wider audience is not neogaf.

So is the Neo for enthusiasts or for the wider audience ? What is the Neo selling and to whom ?

House said the Neo is for enthusiasts to encourage them not to build a PC for better performance.

I cannot imagine a console designed for 30 FPS gaming on heavy taxing titles would fit the bill ?

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

guys guys....what if the PSVR breakout box IS the neo?

It is actively cooled!

Spoiler

lol

 

[Kiote]

lol Wow, not literally the VR Proccessor Box guys.

It will be an upgraded console with the necessary power to not need the Box.

As for PS VR having a second SKU, it will probably have 10 SKUs by the time Sony is done. Assuming it doesn't tank like every other add-on Sony has ever made.

Sony is not going to waste their time creating a Box with enough power to run games that cannot run on the PS4 when the majority of people who own a PS4 will never buy a Neo.

 

[icespide]

So is the Neo for enthusiasts or for the wider audience ?

not all gafer's are enthusiasts and not all enthusiasts are gafers

 

[goonergaz]

You might not like it, but probably 'better graphics'. Developers don't make 1080p/30 games to spite consumers.

Yep, Driveclub could have been 60FPS but they went for pretty graphics over FPS - same for Uncharted SP. Imagine those games (or as mentioned before) LoU2 with this power boost...very nice.

 

[kaching]

Right, but in this case we are talking about a situation that never happened before with this mid-gen upgrade cycle....

You need to find the perfect balance with performance boost/price ratio.

Otherwise people will upgrade their PC for about the same price and keep the "old" PS4 for exclusives

But if Sony can find the right balance, Neo will be a hell of a deal

We've seen shorter console life cycles before (GC to Wii, Xbox OG to Xbox 360). Calling it "mid-gen" doesn't suddenly make it wholly unprecedented.

 

[mrklaw]

So is the Neo for enthusiasts or for the wider audience ? What is the Neo selling and to whom ?

Depends on the price and how they position it. I'm confused too. I thought it would have been for enthusiasts, with a PS4 slim at a lower price being for the wider market. But it doesn't seem like there is a PS4 slim, and maybe not even a die shrink of the original PS4 APU. So it might be that neo *is* the PS4 slim - it is both the cheaper, die shrunk APU and an increase in performance.

How Sony position that in the market? Dunno

 

[icespide]

lol Wow, not literally the VR Proccessor Box guys.

It will be an upgraded console with the necessary power to not need the Box.

As for PS VR having a second SKU, it will probably have 10 SKUs by the time Sony is done. Assuming it doesn't tank like every other add-on Sony has ever made.

Sony is not going to waste their time creating a Box with enough power to run games that cannot run on the PS4 when the majority of people who own a PS4 will never buy a Neo.

the break out box does not provide any "extra power"

 

[goonergaz]

So is the Neo for enthusiasts or for the wider audience ? What is the Neo selling and to whom ?

Neo is for people who want prettier graphics - you know, what House said.

 

[MisterXDTV]

We've seen shorter console life cycles before (GC to Wii, Xbox OG to Xbox 360). Calling it "mid-gen" doesn't suddenly make it wholly unprecedented.

There is a big difference: now Sony and Microsoft are actually telling us that it's mid-gen by confirming that every game will come out for both systems for years to come...

Xbox OG was killed right after 360 launched, and Wii was a totally different console/experience compared to GC. They had nothing in common

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Depends on the price and how they position it. I'm confused too. I thought it would have been for enthusiasts, with a PS4 slim at a lower price being for the wider market. But it doesn't seem like there is a PS4 slim, and maybe not even a die shrink of the original PS4 APU. So it might be that neo *is* the PS4 slim - it is both the cheaper, die shrunk APU and an increase in performance.

How Sony position that in the market? Dunno

I agree with this right now. Xbox One S still hasn't been confirmed 14nm has it? If it was you'd think MS would have made this known.

 

[geordiemp]

Depends on the price and how they position it. I'm confused too. I thought it would have been for enthusiasts, with a PS4 slim at a lower price being for the wider market. But it doesn't seem like there is a PS4 slim, and maybe not even a die shrink of the original PS4 APU. So it might be that neo *is* the PS4 slim - it is both the cheaper, die shrunk APU and an increase in performance.

How Sony position that in the market? Dunno

Yeah you could be onto something, in which case why would Sony keep the OG Ps4 ?

Maybe once Ps4 stocks finish up there will only be Neo ? (You cant be told your the only one, you just know it)...

Thats all that makes sense to me and we are being strung along...

Unless Sony are trying to make a quick profit from the Neo and sell for more margin...? I dont think Sony are clear on what they are doing either.

 

[RoboPlato]

Depends on the price and how they position it. I'm confused too. I thought it would have been for enthusiasts, with a PS4 slim at a lower price being for the wider market. But it doesn't seem like there is a PS4 slim, and maybe not even a die shrink of the original PS4 APU. So it might be that neo *is* the PS4 slim - it is both the cheaper, die shrunk APU and an increase in performance.

How Sony position that in the market? Dunno

PS4 gets a huge price drop and they market Neo for enthusiasts. Standard PS4 isn't going anywhere.

 

[Kiote]

the break out box does not provide any "extra power"

Okay, I'm done here. I'm not going to define every word in my sentence so you can read it. If the "Break Out Box" didn't add "Power" it wouldn't exist.

Perhaps you should look up what the "Processor Unit" actually is.

 

[Clear]

People need to understand, if your GPU is hitting the limit, you can cut down on resolution, geometry, draw-distance, shader passes, tons of stuff. On the other hand, if your CPU is maxed, you need to start doing less stuff content-wise.

Now if Sony are mandating content parity between Neo and base PS4, it essentially means that beefing up the CPU is basically a waste.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Yeah you could be onto something, in which case why would Sony keep the OG Ps4 ?

Maybe once Ps4 stocks finish up there will only be Neo ? (You cant be told your the only one, you just know it)...

Thats all that makes sense to me and we are being strung along...

Unless Sony are trying to make a quick profit from the Neo and sell for more margin...?

They will keep the OG so consumers will have a cheaper option at least for a time.
Truth is it won't surprise me if Sony stops making OG in about a year and half \ 2 years time when they get Neo price down .

 

[geordiemp]

Now if Sony are mandating content parity between Neo and base PS4, it essentially means that beefing up the CPU is basically a waste.

They said something like Neo mode must be better than ps4

They did not say Neo cannot be better than Ps4

They did not mandate parity with Ps4. The rumour is Uc4 already has a Neo mode ready in the game. Given Multiplayer is 60 FPS at 900p, SP is 1080p30...what do you think ND will do with that.....

They will keep the OG so consumers will have a cheaper option at least for a time.
Truth is it won't surprise me if Sony stops making OG in about a year and half \ 2 years time when they get Neo price down .

Agree, If Neo is $ 399 then Sony will run down OG Ps4 as soon as their supply chain allows. Could be 2 years, could be 6 months.

 

[Crimson_Gold]

Okay, I'm done here. I'm not going to define every word in my sentence so you can read it. If the "Break Out Box" didn't add "Power" it wouldn't exist.

Perhaps you should look up what the "Processor Unit" actually is.

It splits the video stream. That's it

 

[icespide]

Okay, I'm done here. I'm not going to define every word in my sentence so you can read it. If the "Break Out Box" didn't add "Power" it wouldn't exist.

Perhaps you should look up what the "Processor Unit" actually is.

What does PlayStation VR's external processor unit actually do?

no need to be a jerk about it

 

[Curufinwe]

Okay, I'm done here. I'm not going to define every word in my sentence so you can read it. If the "Break Out Box" didn't add "Power" it wouldn't exist.

Perhaps you should look up what the "Processor Unit" actually is.

It's s good thing you're done since you've already sunk so low.

 

[MisterXDTV]

They said something like Neo mode must be better than ps4

They did not say Neo cannot be better than Ps4

They did not mandate parity with Ps4

The parity must be in "contents" not in performances/graphics (as that would negate the point of Neo's existence)

 

[mrklaw]

PS4 gets a huge price drop and they market Neo for enthusiasts. Standard PS4 isn't going anywhere.

Well that'd be the traditional approach. But where is Sony getting the savings to pay for a huge price drop if they're still paying for 28nm APUs? are we going to see it hit $299 and stay there for the next few years?