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[Inuhanyou]

To note splatoon is running undocked at 60 fps as well, so until launch they most likely will boost the resolution in the docked mode

Splatoon is CPU or GPU dependent? Considering the clock of both modes is 1GHZ, that makes sense for the FPS to be the same. But the GPU is the issue with the resolution...being bandwidth starved is an issue.

Isn't Disgaea a PS2 game at heart as well? It and Bomberman being 720p and not 60 FPS is 100% down to development lol.

Disgaea 5 is a native PS4 game that Nippon Ichi actually said they could not port to Vita because it was too weak to handle the CPU calculations of so many characters on screen.

None of these games are built in a vacuum, D5 has nothing to do code wise with the PS2 original

 

[Scrawnton]

There's a huge part of the Switch audience that's just looking for a home console experience. The fact that it's a good handheld doesn't lessen the sting of it being a pretty bad home console.

This hybrid approach was a mistake.

You're correct. This should have just been a handheld.

 

[cw_sasuke]

Sounds incredible rough for some of these games.

How in gods name does Bomberman not run 1080/60 >.<

Konami.

 

[GhostTrick]

Switch is a great hardware but it's going to get killed by Nintendo's stupid marketing and policies.

They're selling what is an amazing handheld as a terrible home console.
It's priced outrageously high. The accessories are scandalously overpriced.
The rumble HD thing is basically useless.

But what's more baffling is the little bubble in which Nintendo lives and in which 1-2 Switch is a 50 dollars software... where in fact, they should BEG people to play it to make sure they understand how good their rumble system is.
People shouldn't pay Nintendo to justify these rumbles. Nintendo has to show them that this decision was worth it.

Clearly, they have huge troubles with their policies, and that'll hurt what this amazing handheld is. DF has the same conclusion: As a handheld, it's amazing. As a home console, it's bad.

 

[b00_thegh0st]

Games like disgaea and such are supposedly sub FHD and they come out in march. Its hard to see that they are so early that they would not have the resolution pinned down.

The GPU of the switch is DEFINITELY not the reason why Disgaea of all things is sub FHD, that GPU should be able to render 1080p at the Wii U's level of fidelity reasonably well in docked mode, let alone pixel art and lower level 3D games.

I'm more convinced now more than ever that the bandwidth is the issue this system is having. Sharing the small amount between GPU and CPU is probably extremely tough.

You're obviously more versed in the tech than I am but as pointed out by others it wouldn't be the 1st time we see botched 3rd party ports at a console launch. We'll know soon enough I guess. If Splat2n is 720p docked I'll be really disappointed.

 

[AmyS]

Nintendo should've made the Ultra Famicom with a PowerVR Wizard ray tracing GPU. That would've been cool.

 

[Inuhanyou]

It has enough bandwith to run MK8 in 1080p/60fps but not enough for Disgaea 5 ? That isnt likely at all.
Sounds like NIS just wanted to have the game running and ported on Switch asap so it can be showcased during this event - they still have time to optimize the code until launch.

The Mario Kart 8 was already running at 720p native on Wii U, getting that to 1080p i think would hopefully not be a big task for a 2.5x GPU jump.

But that still does not disprove bandwidth issues, that's my concern

 

[michaelius]

You're correct. This should have just been a handheld.

Yep - if the games are going to be blury subFHD on TV then I've got no idea why I'd want to play them there over native 720p tablet mode with solid pixel density.

 

[MisterXDTV]

It doesn't help Nintendo is selling this thing with home console prices, while offering hardware comparable to 7th Gen (Because we know that Wii U was actually 7th Gen).

If you want to market it right just say: "This is our successor to BOTH Wii U AND 3DS" then it could make sense...

 

[Scrawnton]

Yep - if the games are going to be blury subFHD on TV then I've got no idea why I'd want to play them over native 720p tablet mode with solid pixel density.

The whole issue with Switch so far is Nintendo refuses to acknowledge the death of 3DS and they're trying to protect it as it starts its seventh year...

 

[Sesuadra]

holy hell

these games are still in development for at least 6 months.

 

[Firemind]

Since early launch games are always non-optimized, I'm cautiously optimistic.

 

[Inuhanyou]

The whole issue with Switch so far is Nintendo refuses to acknowledge the death of 3DS and they're trying to protect it as it starts its seventh year...

Which is understandable, 3DS is still going strong in Japan, they want to keep that going as much as possible. And the devs working on 3DS are nowhere near ready to work on Switch

You're obviously more versed in the tech than I am but as pointed out by others it wouldn't be the 1st time we see botched 3rd party ports at a console launch. We'll know soon enough I guess. If Splat2n is 720p docked I'll be really disappointed.

Your right. CODGhosts was 720p on PS4 before they patched it up. And i think it was also 720p on XB1, but its not that common and the main concern is that a lot of these titles shown off are due in march, which generally speaking means that there is not much time

 

[mrklaw]

There's a huge part of the Switch audience that's just looking for a home console experience. The fact that it's a good handheld doesn't lessen the sting of it being a pretty bad home console.

This hybrid approach was a mistake.

I don't think the hybrid approach is a bad idea - but inevitably you're going to stand still in performance by doing it, so your home element will look barely different to your previous machine.

That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it can be if you then insist on marketing it as a home console.

They should have pushed it as a handheld that you can play at home and who cares if a few less people buy a 3DS because of it.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

just going by the leaked specs

The leaked specs were literally just an X1 dev kit...

 

[CrisKre]

The theory that makes the most sense with many of the games that are 720p docked seems to be that developers are optimizing the lower spec handheld experience first and at the last stretch of development address docked performance. Seems logical.

I wouldn't be too worried about Splatoon 2, or Mario Odyssey and so forth just yet.

I would though, be concerned about Bomberman R and Skylanders since crunch to make launch may have developers bypass optimization all together.

 

[cw_sasuke]

The Mario Kart 8 was already running at 720p native on Wii U, getting that to 1080p i think would hopefully not be a big task with only 40% more GPU power needed out of a 2.5x GPU jump.

But that still does not disprove bandwidth issues, that's my concern

Do you really think that Switch cant a game like Disgaea 5 at FHD when its able to render MK8 in 1080p ? THis just seems like the game or the current version isnt optimized for the plattform yet - which shouldnt be too shocking since this a niche game from a niche developer trying to hit the launch window.

I dont think taking Bomberman or Disgaea 5 as prime example of what the hardware is capable off makes alot of sense. Most early japanese PS4 titles looked like PS3 game for years even when the system was much more capable.

The theory that makes the most sense with many of the games that are 720p docked seems to be that developers are optimizing the lower spec handheld experience first and at the last stretch of development address docked performance. Seems logical.

I agree with this.
Especially since the main showcase right now is to prove that the experience between dock and undocked is the same. Focusing on the undocked performance and mirroring that one docked seems the priority.

Docked mode right now seems like a PS4 Pro situation - where it could take extra effort to optimize the game further for big screen displays.

 

[Dictator93]

This was fantastic, great stuff John and Rich!

 

[Hoo-doo]

I don't think the hybrid approach is a bad idea - but inevitably you're going to stand still in performance by doing it, so your home element will look barely different to your previous machine.

That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it can be if you then insist on marketing it as a home console.

They should have pushed it as a handheld that you can play at home and who cares if a few less people buy a 3DS because of it.

I don't think there's actual demand for a hybrid.
Once the novelty wears off, people wil slowlyl realize just how many compromises have been made to make the hybrid form-factor a reality. From both handheld and console perspective.

 

[Vertti]

720p in 2017 isn't acceptable. At least not for a home console released in 2017.

You could say the same about Wii. But at least it was much cheaper than its rivals. Now you get PS4 with a game for $250. It's more powerful and has much better library.

Shared library was a great idea but I wish they had made dedicated handheld and home console for maybe $200 each and $350 both. This way you'd still have a very nice handheld but much more competitive home console. Now it's really difficult to justify paying $300 for such shitty home experience even with all the great games coming. I guess I have to wait for the incoming price drop. Fortunately I can play Zelda with Wii U hopefully even with Cemu for the best experience.

 

[Tecnniqe]

Konami.

Swiitch redeemed.


They need to spin this as a next gen portable device that can be played on a big screen and not the other way around, because right now it's too weak.

 

[Polygonal_Sprite]

If you can tell when something is not FHD, it will probably really stick out compared to something that is.

I personally never realized the difference between 720p or 1080p until i played a lot of time with my PS4, and then i went back to 360 and PS3 and realized how jaggy and less clear everything was.

It really does depend on how far you're sitting from your display. I played Bayonetta 2 for the first few hours on my living room 50" HDTV from about 8 feet away and to me even with wearing glasses it looked up there with PS4 games. The next day I played it in my office on my 32" monitor from about three feet away and it looked horrific - very blurry with jaggies everywhere.

Sounds like an excuse for low resolutions but it really does make a huge difference.

On the topic of the article the Switch really is a disappointment power wise to me. I expected Wii U visuals, resolution and framerate on the go (which it seems to hit) with a big boost to textures, anti aliasing and resolution when docked.

Such a shame they seem to have spent so much of the build cost on those little fancy motion controllers but I guess if they take off like the Wii remote they will have done the right thing. Time will tell...

 

[Ricker]

Nice....look at that Sega Genesis/Sega CD/32X monster on the table besides the guy with the whiplash


So they dont like it much hey...

 

[Inuhanyou]

Do you really think that Switch cant a game like Disgaea 5 at FHD when its able to render MK8 in 1080p ? THis just seems like the game or the current version isnt optimized for the plattform yet - which shouldnt be too shocking since this a niche game from a niche developer trying to hit the launch window.

I dont think taking Bomberman or Disgaea 5 as prime example of what the hardware is capable off makes alot of sense. Most early japanese PS4 titles looked like PS3 game for years even when the system was much more capable.

True. But if we get closer to launch and we still hear these kinds of things, its very concerning considering how Nintendo insists on doubling down on the console rhetoric inviting damaging comparisons to other consoles.

THat only hurts their machine because they are too prideful to admit that its a handheld with a fancy docking station that otherwise would be sold separately.

This whole thing is just a mess because they can't admit that they've left the home console market entirely

 

[Wil348]

Nintendo shouldn't really be marketing this as a home console, when the home console portion looks underwhelming. Thankfully the handheld aspect is very impressive for what it is, and I will be buying it primarily for that reason (and Nintendo games of course).

For me, the dock will be there for the convenience of playing on a bigger screen at home.

 

[LoveCake]

I watched this about an hour ago, It seems that didn't want to be all out negative is what I got from watching it twice, though there were some comments made by Richard that I thought I would never hear him say, some comments were savage as others here have mentioned.

Talking about the prices being (in a DF John WTF moment) 'stratospheric' in regards to some of the software and accessory's, the $40 Street Fighter and 1-2-3 Switch game.

About it being aimed as a hand-held first, but then saying it's too big to hold really and it's like a mobile WiiU, Vita 2:
This for me doesn't work either due to the price, yes people will spend £500 on a phone but on a hand-held (with controllers, console, charger, case, SD card and Zelda LE game is what is comes to here in the UK near enough) small and short games work on hand-held's, I play for about half an hour or so in my lunch break at work and other brakes at work on my 3DS, my 3DS also fits in my pocket, who is really going to play Zelda or MK8 Deluxe on the train or bus or when out with friends in a café or in the park?

Then there is the Splatoon 2 and Mario Odyssey being 720p at 30fps when docked (this may be patched for release to 1080p as Richard and John mentioned) but if it isn't what will it be on the hand-held, lower?

If Zelda was built from the ground up for Switch then ok but it just seems to be upscaled from the WiiU, then MK8 Deluxe and Splatoon 2, yes the graphics are better but really, a couple of new courses/maps and additional weapons and characters, come on these could have been DLC on the WiiU.

I want to stop being so negative about the Switch here on GAF, but I do not know if this is do-able though in the current climate, but I am going to try and post considered replies in threads about the Switch (as I have been trying to do all the while since the Switch reveal).

As a WiiU and 3DS owner from launch, I have no need for a Switch at the current price point (too expensive) or games coming in the coming months until Christmas/Holidays (I can get Zelda BotW on WiiU, I don't need or want WiiU ports of games I have played/own already), I don't need a new hand-held either as I won't be playing Mario Odyssey on the go at work or out and about.

 

[wild wild rice]

"Visuals resemble those of the Wii U generation." Holy shit, that's depressing.

 

[Naked Snake]

Nice....look at that Sega Genesis/Sega CD/32X monster on the table besides the guy with the whiplash

That's dark10x, old time awesome GAFer

 

[Taker666]

It's all very confusing as I'm now left wondering what their next hardware release will be and if I should wait for that instead (as I only want a home console not a handheld).


Will it be a standalone handheld or will it be a standalone home console.

If it's a handheld will that kill the Switch?..if it's a home console will that kill the Switch?..or will they be releasing both a handheld and a home console that play Switch software in various qualities.

When the leaks started coming saying it would be pretty cheap (£199 in the UK)..then I was less concerned as it was a decent price to appeal to both handheld and home console markets that wouldn't alienate either. Now we're at a high end console price (I got a PS4 Pro for the same price as the Switch RRP in the UK) it feels like it alienates both market which was always my initial concern. Too expensive for the handheld market, too weak for the price for the console market...only really appealing to the niche that want both devices.

It's a device that makes me want to wait until E3 2018 to see what else they are going to release.

 

[Milly Osworth]

"Visuals resemble those of the Wii U generation." Holy shit, that's depressing.

I thought this was pretty known by now. But yeah not great &#128534;

 

[Lovely Salsa]

I still dont get who will buy this thing other than the usual hardcore nintendo crowd.

In scandinavia this thing is priced at almost the same price as a ps4 pro

 

[Easy_D]

Splatoon is CPU or GPU dependent? Considering the clock of both modes is 1GHZ, that makes sense for the FPS to be the same. But the GPU is the issue with the resolution...being bandwidth starved is an issue.




Disgaea 5 is a native PS4 game that Nippon Ichi actually said they could not port to Vita because it was too weak to handle the CPU calculations of so many characters on screen.

None of these games are built in a vacuum, D5 has nothing to do code wise with the PS2 original

Oh, it's a later entry in the series, I didn't realise that, sorry. Legit thought they were only porting the first game left and right

 

[Seloth]

Then there is the MK8 Deluxe and Mario Odyssey being 720p at 30fps when docked (this may be patched for release to 1080p as Richard and John mentioned) but if it isn't what will it be on the hand-held, lower?

They specifically said MK8 was 1080p 60fps. Mario Odyssey is still in development.

 

[BigEmil]

Good video

 

[Majmun]

A portable Wii U I can play in bed sounds perfect to me!

Are we already ignoring the fact that Wii U also has a portable device that can be played on your bed with tv switched off?

 

[alt27]

Wiiu2.0 is all I needed to know , ugh. Fuck you nintendo . Ask what your consumers want

 

[General Lee]

The pricing of Nintendo games, systems and peripherals has always been crazy, but Switch takes it to another level and adding paid online to the mix. This is one of the biggest turn offs for me personally. I had the Wii U but never bought anything outside MK8 because the games were never on sale, and the good ones were practically full priced years after release. If I was a parent and I'd need a bunch of extra controllers or other peripherals it would really leave a sour taste in my mouth.

I hope Nintendo will soon realize that Switch is really only a good mobile system, and they actually need a separate home console. The lack of titles is a big problem though, but if they could even match Sony or MS close enough to ensure third party titles, they wouldn't have to rely so much on their limited first party efforts. The best part about the Switch was supposed to be that it would combine the mobile and handheld game catalogue, but what they showed now did not look impressive at all.

 

[Inuhanyou]

It's all very confusing as I'm now left wondering what their next hardware release will be and if I should wait for that instead (as I only want a home console not a handheld).

Depending on how the switch does they might not release anything after that, with the threat of mobile looming and being squeezed out of the core gaming market. Japan(and elsewhere) has a huge appetite for Nintendo franchises, but the hardware itself both handheld and console is cooling off every generation.

Who knows what they decide to do next.

I'm not trying to troll about nintendo, i am actually legit scared for one less player in the market place depending on how this thing does, that's why i dont get Nintendo's moves when they know what is riding on their success

 

[Ricker]

That's dark10x, old time awesome GAFer

Oh cool,didnt know that.

Yeah,the pricing or will the casual ''understand'' it or still think its a Wii add on lol,is what will decide if its a success...I am guessing the party games,like 1 2 Switch,Snipperclips will help a lot...

 

[Social]

Are we already ignoring the fact that Wii U also has a portable device that can be played on your bed with tv switched off?

I was thinking this too...

 

[7threst]

Are we already ignoring the fact that Wii U also has a portable device that can be played on your bed with tv switched off?

As long as the base system is within a two meter reach or so, yes. But since I'm not sleeping in my living room or gaming in my bedroom Switch seems perfect for me

 

[Scrawnton]

Wiiu2.0 is all I needed to know , ugh. Fuck you nintendo . Ask what your consumers want

If they kill 3DS and put 100% of their developers behind Switch that is what fans want. We want a system with the most Nintendo games possible.

 

[Nerazar]

"Visuals resemble those of the Wii U generation." Holy shit, that's depressing.

On the other hand: almost all of the games are from the Wii U generation or have started in it with just a little polish added to it. It's like looking at Skyrim: Special Edition and judging the PS4 by that standard.

We had a lot of "cross-gen" games on PS4/XBO and none of them looked significantly better than on the predecessors.

As Sony-fans would put it:

The next PS4 advantage obviously is the leap in visuals, which complements the already-stunning graphics with extra touches, including increased draw distance, improved water effects and more. You also have the ability to use the DualShock 4 to navigate the game's map interface, which is far more rewarding than fiddling about with the analogue stick.

It's Nintendo's fault not to showcase strong builds of Switch native software, but the hardware and its features indicate that there is much more possible than just WiiU-level graphics.

 

[NSESN]

If they were concerned about the undocked resolution of Splatoon why don''t play it undocked? Or it wasn't possible?

 

[Inuhanyou]

If they kill 3DS and put 100% of their developers behind Switch that is what fans want. We want a system with the most Nintendo games possible.

Not in japan where 3DS is having very strong sales and where most of their momentum is coming from. If they kill that within the next year, its gonna be a disaster as the adoption rate for switch is not guaranteed

 

[wild wild rice]

On the other hand: almost all of the games are from the Wii U generation or have started in it with just a little polish added to it. It's like looking at Skyrim: Special Edition and judging the PS4 by that standard.

We had a lot of "cross-gen" games on PS4/XBO and none of them looked significantly better than on the predecessors.

As Sony-fans would put it:



It's Nintendo's fault not to showcase strong builds of Switch native software, but the hardware and its features indicate that there is much more possible than just WiiU-level graphics.

Right, and I can even look at NSMBU and then something like Tropical Freeze, or Resistance Fall of Man--> Last of Us and know that any and every piece of hardware is gradually going to have much better looking games.

But that doesn't change that it's a poor first impression for folks like me who are going to leave it in the dock 99% of the time. A little 2 minute tech demo would have been much appreciated.

Most rumors put this thing closer to an XB1 than a Wii U in terms of graphical capabilities, and that doesn't seem to be the case at this point in time.

 

[Hermii]

Seems like the bandwidth is hitting the console harder than we thought??

720p even in docked mode is something i didn't expect we'd be seeing much of...and considering the undocked performance...i'm guessing a lot of those games are actually sub HD undocked.

Wasn't Splatoon demoed undocked?

 

[Nerazar]

Right, and I can even look at NSMBU and then something like Tropical Freeze, or Resistance Fall of Man--> Last of Us and know that any and every piece of hardware is gradually going to have much better looking games.

But that doesn't change that it's a poor first impression for folks like me who are going to leave it in the dock 99% of the time.

True, if you're not interested in the hardware being portable it becomes a non-feature which makes the technology worse. Switch will never completely compete with PS4 top-tier games, but the first signs (PS4 multiplatform games) are definitely better than with the WiiU. It will always be a Japan-first hardware, though, just like almost any Nintendo product. I just don't see Ubisoft porting Far Cry or EA porting Mass Effect on it. Bethesda is a great first step, finally a mobile TES game (after the PSP attempt was cancelled and the Vita remote play thing is not really doing it) in full quality, but there has to be more to come.

And I agree that I would also like a tech-demo or something. But maybe we can just look at the WiiU Zelda Tech-Demo and pretend that this will be the reality this time around

 

[Toadthemushroom]

Another great piece of commentary from Rich and John, almost finished it. Just got to the bit where John calls the grip the "Dog Controller". Love it!

It was nice seeing more scepticism surrounding the system's capabilities when it's docked into console mode, and both John and Rich make a very good point that the perception would be so different if the device was positioned as the next Nintendo handheld (coming off the relative success of 3DS rather than the failure of the Wii U) as this new, ultra-luxury handheld device that can also dock to your TV. Few have had anything negative to say about the hardware design and engineering, yet Nintendo's home gaming system positioning really undersells it.

Not only are the visuals and quality of the device really impressive as a handheld, but most of the device's best features revolve around its portability -- having two controllers at the sides at all times, having the kickstand, being able to play with others anywhere, any time.

It'd also prevent Nintendo from receiving unfavourable comparisons between the Switch and current gen consoles. The gap between Vita and PS3 was far larger than the gap between Switch and an Xbox One or even a PS4, yet no one was directly comparing the Vita to a PS3, and even bought into Sony's "PS3 in your hands" promise despite the Vita only really delivering handheld versions of the smallest games (Virtua Tennis 4, a heavily stripped back Need for Speed Most Wanted running at 1/4 of the resolution).

So yeah, this does feel like a Vita 2 but with Nintendo's software grunt behind it and the odd curio release every month for the first year. Vita had a stronger launch lineup due to the market still being positive about new launches (only 3DS had underperformed at that point), but I remember the post-launch period being a depressing lull...

 

[wild wild rice]

Excellent vid, btw. Incredibly level headed discussion about the positives, negatives, remaining questions and future potential of Switch.