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[Fine Ham Abounds]

Not really. Pandering is what it is. There's nothing objectively wrong with designing a product for an audience, although obviously there are some specific things which can be problematic.

What I have a problem with is people who can't be honest with themselves or the world that they like to be titillated in base ways.

Stop trying to upsell cheesecake to a level it simply is not at. Don't get me wrong, some lustful depictions of idealized sexuality can be fine art, but gratuitous panty shots in a game about high school girls solving crimes with no reasonable context is flat out only there to sell units and warm loins, not infuse the game with meaningful discomfort and gravitas.

Just be a creep, own that shit. You and everyone else will at least be able to take you somewhat more seriously.

 

[Mauricio_Magus]

So yeah it depends on the situation, I've been thinking about it and at times I'm fine with it, like with the Neptunia series, Bayonetta, Senran Kagura, it fits the game and it doesn't bother me.


But then we have shit like Clover's design in VLR, Quiet in MGSV, and other shit that is just awkward because it doesn't fit in the setting at all and it feels like it wasn't well thought at all.

There are ways of doing fanservice right, I mean, look at Kaine from Nier

She is one of the best characters ever and she shines because of how well thought out everything about her is in the game, including her character design.

 

[IbukiLordSA]

The more the better.

 

[Kinsei]

Yes, I hate it. It sucks that Japanese series I like are going down that route.

Only if the entire game revolves around it like Senran Kagura. Games like Danganronpa 2 and the Vanillaware games, where the gameplay/story is the main draw, I don't mind the occasional fanservice.

I find the latter to be worse. At least I know to avoid games like Senran Kagura, with Danganronpa I'm playing a game I love and then out of nowhere the main character decides to spy on the girls bathing.

 

[Nimby]

Mostly no. I can't think of a time fan service turned me away from a game.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

He literally highlighted the part where you said it's holding the industry back. I don't think he's telling you to go look at everyone's panties in Xenoblade until you enjoy it.

But it IS holding the industry back to appeal to more audiences when it isn't an issue of whether it appeals to that particular subset of an audience like with novels specifically aimed at a group who wants to read that. I don't tend to have a choice if I want to play a jrpg but lo and behold there's fan service that isn't necessary one one or multiple females. You really think some female audiences aren't bothered by the overuse of female fanservice and don't buy certain games because the developers felt the need to include it?

If it's a dating game or a game particularly aimed at people who enjoy this (there's a recent one with sword fighting ladies) then all to them.

 

[Yoritomo]

It limits what games I play in front of my daughters.

 

[Crossing Eden]

But you didn't give any reason why they are interesting besides that. You used those two factors as a rebuttal to me saying they are uninteresting.

I'd rather not make a wall of text, but to skim it down, silhouette is a big part of it, each one has a distinctive silhouette, the creation process is a big part, and how they fit into the context is a huge part, if you were to guess which one is from a description of each game you'd have little trouble. Not to mention that each one of them has a ton of tiny details that went into their designs that says a good amount about their character. Generally, a lot more thought went into them.

Not really. Pandering is what it is. There's nothing objectively wrong with designing a product for an audience, although obviously there are some specific things which can be problematic.

What I have a problem with is people who can't be honest with themselves or the world that they like to be titillated in base ways.

Stop trying to upsell cheesecake to a level it simply is not at. Don't get me wrong, some lustful depictions of idealized sexuality can be fine art, but gratuitous panty shots in a game about high school girls solving crimes with no reasonable context is flat out only there to sell units and warm loins, not infuse the game with meaningful discomfort and gravitas.

Just be a creep, own that shit. You and everyone else will at least be able to take you somewhat more seriously.

Oh my lord also this.

 

[Dangansona]

That shit's hilarious, the Vita isn't dead because there's a thousand games on it I'd never be caught playing near civilization. It's a goddamn portable handheld and I'm not gonna use it at home.

The vita is best for playing in bed. Don't see why it being a portable excludes it from being used at home. Do you ever use your laptop at home?

 

[Lime]

Just be a creep, own that shit. You and everyone else will at least be able to take you somewhat more seriously.

Agreed so much with this. I've seen so many comparisons of localizing some dude-pandering anime waifu game (or whatever those things are called) to censoring Michelangelo's David. Or equating it to living in dictator states:

I didn't realize I was living in Saudi Arabia.

Just be honest so we can have an honest conversation instead of invoking some holy "artistic freedom" bullshit as if ideas come from the uninfluenced, clean spring of some horny game developer's mind or that you are living in the tyranny of a dictatorship.

 

[JumpCancel]

What do you mean by this? Apparently masculine fanservice=power fantasy from what i've seen lately :/

I meant masculine fan service for women, sexualisation. Don't see a game with bayo-level crotch shots on a dudes ass do you?

Maybe someone should just so there is a game out there to use as an example.

 

[Exotoro]

Eh it doesn't bother me at all

 

[sechsterangriff]

It can bother me in a way as "too much of anything" bothers me.
Of course the threshold of "what is too much" varies to different people. In my case Bayonetta doesn't bother me one bit. SFV butt slap doesn't bother me very much. SFV Chun-Li player 2 character select "wild physics" gets annoying after a while. Omega Labyrinth bothers me to the point it's unappealing.

Then again, people aren't forced to like things. I'm not a big fan of changes that don't have much to do with game itself but with certain types of imagery or story just to avoid controversy. The devs and publishers of games are free to choose which audience to target. And people are free to not buy the games they don't like.

 

[PtM]

Are we talking about actual "fan service" (cameos, references etc.) or not?

It really should get called manservice. I think it holds back gaming.

 

[Strangelove77]

If it fits the tone of the game it's fine.

 

[Holy Order Sol]

Fanservice, no. More like people arguing about it both for and against. Sadly no dev can ever come up with anything that will just silence everyone once and for all.

 

[PensivePen]

It kind of annoys me as it's not really something I want in a game. But if there's a genuinely great game underneath like in Bayonetta then eventually I pretty much forget about it completely while playing.

 

[RedSwirl]

Most of the time in the end I don't care, but at the same time I often wonder if it needs to be there. I ask what the game gains or loses by including fanservice or not including fanservice. I haven't played Senran Kagura, and there very well could be a good video game with well-written characters behind the egregious boobs, but do the egregious boobs even add anything to that beyond blatantly obvious sex appeal? From there it's sort of a game-to-game basis.

Bayonetta? People have analyzed themes and symbolism from from all of that game's imagery. It seems like there was at least some real thought behind it.

Dragon's Crown? The game's imagery is obviously inspired by the Frank Frazetta era of western fantasy art. You can probably still criticizing it for getting into the exact same mindspace for its female character designs, but you at least know where it's coming from beyond male gaze.

Witcher 3? It builds reasonable sexual relationships with its female characters and their designs are bound by canon CDProjekt didn't write. Outside of Witcher 1's collectible cards the nudity in this game doesn't feel like "fanservice" at all, but rather actually has a reason to be there.

Fighting games? All the characters in most fighting games are supposed to be heroically idealized. Many of their designs were originally drawn in the early 90's when there wasn't as much uproar about needlessly sexualized female characters, and have remained largely unchanged out of tradition. It must be said however that fighting games tend to have larger varieties of female characters period that occupy a spectrum on this issue.

Metal Gear Solid V? Everything involving Quiet did seem pretty egregious to me. The story's explanation for her design doesn't really add anything to the game

Spoiler

(why couldn't she just wear The End's ghilli suit?)

. Even if a lot of people agree her character design looks cool, the way the camera treats Quiet still felt overboard to me to a juvenile degree.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

Not really. Pandering is what it is. There's nothing objectively wrong with designing a product for an audience, although obviously there are some specific things which can be problematic.

What I have a problem with is people who can't be honest with themselves or the world that they like to be titillated in base ways.

Stop trying to upsell cheesecake to a level it simply is not at. Don't get me wrong, some lustful depictions of idealized sexuality can be fine art, but gratuitous panty shots in a game about high school girls solving crimes with no reasonable context is flat out only there to sell units and warm loins, not infuse the game with meaningful discomfort and gravitas.

Just be a creep, own that shit. You and everyone else will at least be able to take you somewhat more seriously.

For the most part I agree with this. It's best to see things meant to titilate as what they are.

Only thing that gives me pause on this is there are many scenarios where heavy sexualization can have a greater purpose than just to titilate, and those are the scenarios that cause arguments as sometimes it goes beyond author intent. I'll point to Kotoko again for that.

 

[HK-47]

I'm curious, what did you think of Bloodlines and its sexualization?



That scene was so dumb and unnecessary. Super creepy.

On defined characters like VV or Jeanette I didnt have a problem. Some things like the female model walk cycle and the absurd tit jiggling I could have done without. I also still dont know what to make of the female Malkavian.

In general to he topic, I'd have less problems with female sexualization in games if women were granted the same variety of body types and faces and the ability to be ugly or plain the way men are (and for women meant to be in combat not to be wearing fucking high heels). Until that happens I'll remain bothered by the disparity.

 

[Cloyster]

For the most part I agree with this. It's best to see things meant to titilate as what they are.

Only thing that gives me pause on this is there are many scenarios where heavy sexualization can have a greater purpose than just to titilate, and those are the scenarios that cause arguments as sometimes it goes beyond author intent. I'll point to Kotoko again for that.

Agreed here. I'll defend everything done with Bayonetta's direction forever, but I understand why some people may feel it's part of the problem. I'll just disagree with them.

 

[Greddleok]

Glad Japanese game developers stick to what they are doing right now.

I can't stand most of those designs.

Despite it being an unpopular opinion, I agree. Those designs are great for what they're trying to do - representation - but most of them are bland.
The butch pink haired woman and the Mirror's edge designs are the only ones I like. The rest look like "generic woman" as much most men look like "generic space marine"

I like the over-the-top designs, I think they're aesthetically pleasing and interesting.

 

[Puruzi]

Most of the time in the end I don't care, but at the same time I often wonder if it needs to be there. I ask what the game gains or loses by including fanservice or not including fanservice. I haven't played Senran Kagura, and there very well could be a good video game with well-written characters behind the egregious boobs, but do the egregious boobs even add anything to that beyond blatantly obvious sex appeal? From there it's sort of a game-to-game basis.

The creator of the series just straight up enjoys tits and ass, so that's why it's there. And that's perfectly fine.

 

[NotGivingMyNameToADamnCom]

But it IS holding the industry back to appeal to more audiences when it isn't an issue of whether it appeals to that particular subset of an audience like with novels specifically aimed at a group who wants to read that. I don't tend to have a choice if I want to play a jrpg but lo and behold there's fan service that isn't necessary one one or multiple females. You really think some female audiences aren't bothered by the overuse of female fanservice and don't buy certain games because the developers felt the need to include it?

If it's a dating game or a game particularly aimed at people who enjoy this (there's a recent one with sword fighting ladies) then all to them.

Well you know if those JRPGs have fanservice in them, then they're aimed at people who enjoy it, it's not holding the Japanese Industry back it's just the Japanese Industry being the Japanese Industry. There are similar games aimed at all kinds of people, just because Japan values some specialization over mass appeal doesn't necessarily infer it's holding the industry back. And just because you're mad that a game you want to play has fan service, so you feel duty bound to avoid it, doesn't mean that game isn't for people who enjoy fan service, it obviously is because they're putting it in there to sell the game.

 

[Matrix XII]

No it doesn't bother me one bit.

I think people are so up tight about this kind of stuff for the most part to be honest.

 

[Cloyster]

Most of the time in the end I don't care, but at the same time I often wonder if it needs to be there. I ask what the game gains or loses by including fanservice or not including fanservice. I haven't played Senran Kagura, and there very well could be a good video game with well-written characters behind the egregious boobs, but do the egregious boobs even add anything to that beyond blatantly obvious sex appeal? From there it's sort of a game-to-game basis.

Some people will disagree, but Senran Kagura is actually a really fun game series, with a non-offensive and enjoyable story and characters.

I respect the creator a lot for being completely open about how he wanted to make a series with cute girls with lots of tits and ass.

And at least the girls in those games have agency, and different emotions and personalities and body types.

 

[nkarafo]

Yes. Zero Suit Samus and the focus on her sexiness and gender (outside the ending scenes) was the worst thing that happened to the Metroid franchise after OtherM.

Also, Quiet in MGS5 was the most cringe worthy thing i saw lately.

 

[Quintin DM]

No it doesn't.

 

[Tenebrous]

Doesn't bother me in the slightest, although I do understand that fanservice tends to be focused on pleasing us guys. I'm all for having some more sexy fellas flex their muscles, show off their bulges, and shake their asses a lil bit.

Hell, I'd love more of that. 'twould be hilarious. Games are best when they're ridiculous.

Edit:

It absolutely does but I just avoid the game and don't actively argue against it.

EXCEPT in the cases where the characters are underage.

Actually, this is also true of me. Rikku is 15 years old, yet FFX just whores her all over the place... A bit weird.

 

[Galactic Fork]

What do you mean by this? Apparently masculine fanservice=power fantasy from what i've seen lately :/

No, the way men have typically been presented in the past has been power fantasy. If it was fanservice for actual women in mind, it'd look a bit different.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

Well you know if those JRPGs have fanservice in them, then they're aimed at people who enjoy it, it's not holding the Japanese Industry back it's just the Japanese Industry being the Japanese Industry. There are similar games aimed at all kinds of people, just because Japan values some specialization over mass appeal doesn't necessarily infer it's holding the industry back. And just because you're mad that a game you want to play has fan service, so you feel duty bound to avoid it, doesn't mean that game isn't for people who enjoy fan service, it obviously is because they're putting it in there to sell the game.

Xenoblade and Bravely Default are meant only for fanservice fans? All right then. Regardless those got censored a bit so I can't complain.

 

[bomblord1]

It absolutely does but I just avoid the game and don't actively argue against it.

EXCEPT in the cases where the characters are underage.

 

[Platy]

Fanservice for the sake of fanservice ?

Yes it bothers me A LOT, but then again this might be because I am not the target of such fanservice 99% of the times

 

[Crossing Eden]

No, the way men have typically been presented in the past has been power fantasy. If it was fanservice for actual women in mind, it'd look a bit different.

Thank you.

 

[Kinyou]

This the the eternal problem. People say they want equal fanservice from male characters but nobody can fucking agree on what is considered male fanservice unless he is running around in his undies and even there there is huge disagreement.

Then you have the people who go "Men with beards and beefy chests aren't fanservice! to women!" or "Beautiful toned men with style and grace aren't fanservice to women!" Then what the fuck is? And no that bullshit "I value a man for his mind and character." is a fucking cop-out answer we're talking about things that tickle your fancy on a different level.

You can't have equal opportunity when you don't even know what you want out of the other side.

What a female power fantasy looks like is also still pretty unclear. Some would say Bayonetta, others say she's the exact opposite.

 

[NotGivingMyNameToADamnCom]

Only if the fan service depicts underage looking kids. I don't care if she's a thousand year old imp or whatever, breh she looks like a six year old.

Is this a particular game? I feel like it's a common thing to just subtract a random number from the age of any anime style character to ham up an argument.

Fanservice always bugs me, but usually no more than to make me roll my eyes. A few games have gone so far with the fanservice that it bothers me enough not to buy the game at all. It's not just the amount but the kind of fanservice, especially with underage characters.

I'm guessing a lot of people do start caring once they become parents.

How much of it do you think is just parental hysteria vs. like an honest issue with it. I think as long as it's in the highschool age range it's not that objectionable, it's nothing different than what goes on in CW shows to me. Obviously I know I'm a piece of shit who needs a bullet in the back of my brain for seeing nothing wrong with Atelier Totori.

Though I think it's really funny when people bring up the parent thing, like it's almost an admission that "well I can't think straight on this". I still remember my aunt asking me if pedophiles would find her 1 year old's pictures on facebook and hunt her down or something.

 

[Hektor]

Entirely depends on the game.
Its distracting and unintentionally funny in all serious dramas such as MGS5, really ruining moments and cutscenes. TW3 can be cringe-worthy as well sometims, tho its atleast acknowledging the soft-porn scenes as such.

Humorous/Gameplay focused games? Sure why not, Sex is fun, and i wouldnt wanna miss it, as long as it doesnt cheapen the characters, like for example in P4DAN, where Chie is suddenly 3 times more bustier, that just doesnt sit right with me.

One of the good examples is something like Skullgirls, its just a humorous, wacky fighting game, nothing wrong with stuff like Pantyshots.

€: Tho, i can see why stuff like that may alienate some people, expecially because of how much of a one-way street it is. There is rarely ever fanservice targeted at women/Homosexuals like that ryu-costume. I think if that would be more often the case, some kind of equal fanservice for all, arguements such as this would be more rare.

 

[AerialAir]

Yes, it sometimes kills JRPGs for me, and I'm JPRG kind of guy.

 

[Vilix]

It doesn't bother me. I grew up with it and was taught the difference between what is used to sell something versus what's worth buying something. Bayonetta is one of my favorite franchises. Not because of the overt fan service. It's because the gameplay is very very good.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

The '1000 year old dragon' joke comes from Fire Emblem Awakening.

 

[Village]

I feel like nowadays a bit less needed considering folks on the net will do it for you.
Like as soon as your game comes out too.

 

[ohlawd]

no

gimme all the fanservice

 

[Puruzi]

Is this a particular game? I feel like it's a common thing to just subtract a random number from the age of any anime style character to ham up an argument.

It's not an actual thing. It's only been in like, 2 games, but everyone keeps saying that because it's basically a meme at this point.

 

[Sakura]

Depends really. I don't like it when the girls are purposely being lewd, but I do enjoy dressing up characters in lewd outfits, like in Akiba's Trip 2 and JRPGs and stuff.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

It's not an actual thing. It's only been in like, 2 games, but everyone keeps saying that because it's basically a meme at this point.

In games, yes it isn't often that titles have it. In anime though it's all over the place to have a loli who is actually an adult. But you know this as much as I do.

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

Too much fanservice is very distracting,

 

[Puruzi]

In games, yes it isn't often that titles have it. In anime though it's all over the place to have a loli who is actually an adult. But you know this as much as I do.

Yeah I was talking about video games, anime is full of that.

 

[Shotgun Kiss]

If a game is centred around it (like Senran Kagura, or Extreme Beach Volleyball) then fine. Whatever. I won't play it, but people who are into that kind of thing have a means of indulging in it.

But keep it out of "proper" games. It adds nothing to them, undermines the tone/characters, makes playing an awkward experience, and can lead to embarassment if somebody else is in the room when playing.

I had to quit out of Metal Gear Solid V due to a scene with Quiet playing when my girlfriend and one of her friends were around. It turned out it wasn't even a particularly graphic scene, but I wasn't going to take the chance.

 

[Cloyster]

Depends really. I don't like it when the girls are purposely being lewd, but I do enjoy dressing up characters in lewd outfits, like in Akiba's Trip 2 and JRPGs and stuff.

So you don't want girls to be sexual, but you like putting them in sexual outfits when they aren't sexual?

Not trying to hate, just trying to understand.

 

[NotGivingMyNameToADamnCom]

Xenoblade and Bravely Default are meant only for fanservice fans? All right then. Regardless those got censored a bit so I can't complain.

Well ok, I mean do we have to really do some thing here were people who like fan service and don't mind fan service are like somehow seriously outweighed by people who hate fan service and stop playing games because of it?

I think yeah, those games are probably being aimed at people who like fan service or at least don't mind it. Even among people who don't find those kind of outfits sexually attractive a lot of people find it cute. Literally every woman I know who played Tera thought Elin were cute and played them because of that. Granted we're talking like 3 or 4 people who I met in game or later met in FFXIV, but I think fan service gets a kind of overreaction here that it doesn't get in Japan.