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[The Living Tribunal]

Not really. Pandering is what it is. There's nothing objectively wrong with designing a product for an audience, although obviously there are some specific things which can be problematic.

What I have a problem with is people who can't be honest with themselves or the world that they like to be titillated in base ways.

Stop trying to upsell cheesecake to a level it simply is not at. Don't get me wrong, some lustful depictions of idealized sexuality can be fine art, but gratuitous panty shots in a game about high school girls solving crimes with no reasonable context is flat out only there to sell units and warm loins, not infuse the game with meaningful discomfort and gravitas.

Just be a creep, own that shit. You and everyone else will at least be able to take you somewhat more seriously.

This.

Stop pretending fan service is a anything other than pandering to basic sexual desires.

 

[NahaNago]

Is this a particular game? I feel like it's a common thing to just subtract a random number from the age of any anime style character to ham up an argument.



.

i believe this comes from Tera the young looking female characters were like a thousand years old and got more clothing put on them when it was released for the west i think

 

[Lime]

What a female power fantasy looks like is also still pretty unclear. Some would say Bayonetta, others say she's the exact opposite.

It's almost as if women aren't one singular being.

 

[Ohmygoditsjrod]

If a game is centred around it (like Senran Kagura, or Extreme Beach Volleyball) then fine. Whatever. I won't play it, but people who are into that kind of thing have a means of indulging in it.

But keep it out of "proper" games. It adds nothing to them, undermines the tone/characters, makes playing an awkward experience, and can lead to embarassment if somebody else is in the room when playing.

I had to quit out of Metal Gear Solid V due to a scene with Quiet playing when my girlfriend and one of her friends were around. It turned out it wasn't even a particularly graphic scene, but I wasn't going to take the chance.

Would you have stopped playing when one of the B&B squad was walking sultry in a skin tight suit?

Also of quiet makes you so uncomfortable why didn't you just

Spoiler

kill her.

Everyone complaining about quiet you do know she is optional right?

 

[Mithos]

No, the way men have typically been presented in the past has been power fantasy. If it was fanservice for actual women in mind, it'd look a bit different.

I don't agree that it were male power fantasy, maybe that is what they THOUGHT they were doing. And that a female fanservice would/could look different.

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

It depends. Sometimes I forgive it. I think Crank is one of the best modern action films ever made, and the entire thing is basically a tribute to GTA. It's incredible self-aware, and yet I buy it. I genuinely think it's a fantastic film at what it is trying to be.

The latest WoW Expansion Cinematic for Legion annoyed me somewhat though. The fighting choreography had some of the characters do some heroic military patriotic bravado and recognition, along with over over-done motions when they were fighting like in an anime. It just looked jarring and juvenile to me. I don't know why I didn't bought it. It is Warcraft, but for some reason it just pissed me off.

 

[Olengie]

No. Got desensitized a long time ago

 

[FluxWaveZ]

Yes, especially when it's at odds with the tone of the game.

Edit: Mainly talking about the sexual kind, but it can be quite annoying when it's too much of any kind of fanservice. Relentless pandering isn't a good thing.

 

[captainpat]

I had to quit out of Metal Gear Solid V due to a scene with Quiet playing when my girlfriend and one of her friends were around. It turned out it wasn't even a particularly graphic scene, but I wasn't going to take the chance.

Considering how little cutscenes there are in that game, especially with Quiet, that's just bad luck.

 

[Kinyou]

It's almost as if women aren't one singular being.

And yet male power fantasies are apparently so easy to identify

 

[_woLf]

Male or female, it doesn't bother me at all.

 

[Sakura]

So you don't want girls to be sexual, but you like putting them in sexual outfits when they aren't sexual?

Not trying to hate, just trying to understand.

Yea pretty much. I guess, when the girls are being sexual, I feel like that becomes the focus of the game, while if I am doing it, then it is my fault and the game isn't about that.
Like there are anime for example, where all the girls do is take off their clothes and try to get with the protagonist etc. I don't like that. But there are anime where there is fanservice aside from the actual contents of the story, like maybe there will be an upskirt shot or a shower scene or something like that. That I do not mind.

 

[kewlmyc]

If you don't like fanservice, and a game revolves around it why would it bother you? It means that game is explicitly not for you. It makes more sense be upset at your other example, if a game you like has fanservice in it when you don't like fanservice.

I don't hate the idea of fanservice, it's just when it's too much of it that it annoys me. Like I get it, you can see her underwear, just don't focus a majority of the game on it. I guess now that I think about it, a better explanation would be that it annoys me when a game has good gameplay, but it rather focus more on T&A instead like DoA5:LR.

 

[Cloyster]

I don't agree that it were male power fantasy, maybe that is what they THOUGHT they were doing. And that a female fanservice would/could look different.

It's no secret that male game designers design from a male eye, so they don't design male characters to be attractive to women.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

In games, yes it isn't often that titles have it. In anime though it's all over the place to have a loli who is actually an adult. But you know this as much as I do.

Sure, but said character is usually in their 20s or 30s, not 1000.

 

[NotGivingMyNameToADamnCom]

i believe this comes from Tera the young looking female characters were like a thousand years old and got more clothing put on them when it was released for the west i think

Well Elin looked more like genetically botched experiments to me than 6 year olds, but they obviously were meant to look young I won't fight that. Also they weren't a thousand years old, they lived to 100 and went to go die in sko elinphant graveyard.

 

[SeanTSC]

Any at all bothers me.

Sorry but it's totally fucking childish as far as I am concerned. Fan service as a concept does absolutely nothing to enrich the experience unless the game is built around it, in which case it's probably a shitty game devoid of any inspiration.

Unpopular opinion probably but oh well. I'm an adult, I got over needing to see boobs in everything by the time I was like 17.

This falls under the same category as excessive cursing in games to me. It's just there to appeal to people who haven't fully grown up yet.

Since when is smut childish and since when does "being an adult" mean you stop liking sexual things? That's just baffling to me.

My 65 year old mother openly listens to straight up extremely descriptive Romance Porn audiobooks on her iPad Air. My 37 year old girlfriend openly reads Doujinshi Erotica and loves watching Informative Murder Porn. And my 32 year old self loves all things fanservicey and smutty with games and anime. Boobs are awesome.

 

[Iva Demilcol]

Of course not. Who would dislike cameos or references of games you like?

 

[Lime]

And yet male power fantasies are apparently so easy to identify

They aren't easy to identify either, since men also aren't one singular being.

However, what we can talk about is hegemonic masculinity and how the "ideal" male power fantasy is characterized according to this oppressive normative system.

 

[Crossing Eden]

And yet male power fantasies are apparently so easy to identify

They usually are because the intent is so incredibly clear 99.9% of the time, especially if you look and read the design documents and concept art for the characters that are named whenever the flimsy excuse of "but men are sexualized too" comes up.

 

[Cloyster]

And yet male power fantasies are apparently so easy to identify

It is interesting isn't it?

The idea of a male power fantasy is very very easy to quantify, and yet for women, it's very difficult. It's been a debate among feminists for decades. I think it speaks to the hardships society and culture has put on the female identity, and the conflict they have with that. You know, the Madonna-Whore complex and all that.

 

[NahaNago]

Well Elin looked more like genetically botched experiments to me than 6 year olds, but they obviously were meant to look young I won't fight that. Also they weren't a thousand years old, they lived to 100 and went to go die in sko elinphant graveyard.

i'd forgotten it's been a very long time since i played that game. I only remembered there was a lot of drama over the outfits concerning those characters.

 

[Mithos]

It's no secret that male game designers design from a male eye, so they don't design male characters to be attractive to women.

And they are equality shitty on making male power fantasies, cos none of the past things have been claimed to be in threads like this, unless ofc steroid-pumped bodies are supposed to be power fantasies, which I do not think/agree they are.

 

[Ninjimbo]

No. I get why people get bothered by it, and to be honest, I have trouble arguing against them. Personally, it's never been something I've felt like complaining against when there are soooooo many alternatives out there.

I have no idea why it's a hot topic every single time. It's like, everytime I see a single a sexed up character in a high profile game I expect there to be somebody writing an article somewhere. I can see why developers are trying to get away from it.

It's unfortunate in a way, but I can understand not wanting to deal with the noise.

 

[NotGivingMyNameToADamnCom]

This.

Stop pretending fan service is a anything other than pandering to basic sexual desires.

I think it's a direct reaction to any sort of even limited admission of interest meaning you're characterized as some pathetic loser who is freeze framing his video games to jack off to them. Sure I'm a pathetic loser but it has nothing to do with me jacking off to video games.

i'd forgotten it's been a very long time since i played that game. I only remembered there was a lot of drama over the outfits concerning those characters.

Yeah it was a dumb false blow up since it was easy to change the outfits and EnMasse gave everyone a wink and nod while saying "it's against the ToS". Just more people making a stink because they think it's some hill worth dying on.

 

[13randO]

It definitely can; if it adds nothing to the existing context, then it shouldn't be in there at all. I find the sexual variety insulting, actually. It mostly speaks to me that my attention can't be held on what I'm doing/watching if there isn't a half naked woman or a sexual encounter involved.

 

[Ohmygoditsjrod]

Since when is smut childish and since when does "being an adult" mean you stop liking sexual things? That's just baffling to me.

My 65 year old mother openly listens to straight up extremely descriptive Romance Porn audiobooks on her iPad Air. My 37 year old girlfriend openly reads Doujinshi Erotica and loves watching Informative Murder Porn. And my 32 year old self loves all things fanservicey and smutty with games and anime. Boobs are awesome.

God this so much. Like I can only like boobs if I'm a horny teenager or Otaku. My 32 year old self can't appreciate it without being childish. We all have to be super serious adults.

 

[Beautiful Ninja]

Not gonna lie, Bayonetta was too much fanservice for me, couldn't bring myself to play the game after a couple of levels. I've played enough Japanese games to expect some fanservice and I don't generally mind it, but Bayonetta was too much for me. I avoid the games where the primary selling feature is fanservice though, despite Steam's best attempts to sell me porn VN's after buying Final Fantasy XIII.

 

[Spieler Eins]

It mostly sucks when it comes with a generally generic animu look in Japanese games nowadays, which then most likely also correlates with bad story and character tropes. Modern anime trends are absolute trash. Which concerns the likes of current Final Fantasy or anything on Vita. The entire J-Pop and Idol culture is annoying and it seems much more dominant nowadays.

On the other hand, something like No More Heroes was awesome, including spacy female designs. The new Fire Emblem from the same artist on the other hand is shabby. Street Fighter has great art direction, I see nothing wrong with it. Dumb optional costumes in other games like horror aren't exactly offensive either. Nier was alright, because the character was alright. But I'm glad they changed the pretty boy mc for the west.

 

[Cloyster]

And they are equality shitty on making male power fantasies, cos none of the past things have been claimed to be in threads like this, unless ofc steroid-pumped bodies are supposed to be power fantasies, which I do not think/agree they are.

They absolutely are. If you don't think characters like Kratos and Venom Snake are Male Power Fantasies, i'm not sure what to tell you.

Near-silent, super chiseled, strong, smart, deadly, have beautiful women with barely to no characterization that just want to fuck them.

Venom Snake is explicitly supposed to be the player. And that player is male.

 

[PdotMichael]

They aren't easy to identify either, since men also aren't one singular being.

However, what we can talk about is hegemonic masculinity and how the "ideal" male power fantasy is characterized according to this oppressive normative system.

How do we explain that many male characters in media purely for women written and designed are even several steps worse then that.

The 50 Shades of Grey main guy is basically a rapist and shit is selling like cupcakes all over the world.

 

[Mauricio_Magus]

Not gonna lie, Bayonetta was too much fanservice for me, couldn't bring myself to play the game after a couple of levels. I've played enough Japanese games to expect some fanservice and I don't generally mind it, but Bayonetta was too much for me. I avoid the games where the primary selling feature is fanservice though, despite Steam's best attempts to sell me porn VN's after buying Final Fantasy XIII.

Steam doesn't sell porn VNs

also, Bayonetta is like the best example of fanservice done right, haha.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

I find the latter to be worse. At least I know to avoid games like Senran Kagura, with Danganronpa I'm playing a game I love and then out of nowhere the main character decides to spy on the girls bathing.

I can't believe how quickly the DR series went off the rails.

Contrast that with something like Onechanbara that wears the fact that it's sexy trash on its sleeve and whose characters feel like they have some agency in how they are depicted, and you have something that seems it should be much raunchier than DR but actually feels more innocent and playful somehow.

 

[Cloyster]

How do we explain that many male characters in media purely for women written and designed are even several steps worse then that.

The 50 Shades of Grey main guy is basically a rapist and shit is selling like cupcakes all over the world.

Christian Grey is an example, yes, but there are not MANY male characters in media. You just named a romance novel, the ONLY fiction medium (besides fan fiction) that has a majority of female viewership. Men have EVERYTHING else.

Yes, there are a couple characters like that, but don't try to act like they are anywhere near the number of female characters that are just horribly sexualized.

 

[NotGivingMyNameToADamnCom]

They absolutely are. If you don't think characters like Kratos and Venom Snake are Male Power Fantasies, i'm not sure what to tell you.

Of course Kratos is a male power fantasy, going on a massive rampage to FIND MAH WIFE or FIND MAH DAUGHTA(I don't remember these games well). Like that's the ultimate one.

Contrast that with something like Onechanbara that wears the fact that it's sexy trash on its sleeve and whose characters feel like they have some agency in how they are depicted, and you have something that seems it should be much raunchier than DR but actually feels more innocent and playful somehow.

I actually really liked the boss fights in Oneechanbara as well. The 360 version's zombie fighting was pretty shit, but survival mode could be fun. They're just girls who need to bathe in blood to activate their super powers, that's it!

 

[Knox]

I think it's really dumb. It's usually a sign that a game is not for me.

 

[bryanee]

Nah, doesn't bother me at all. It makes me laugh some times, not because I think its a bad joke but because I find it genuinely funny.

 

[Auto-Reply]

If it's there and in check I embrace it, if it's over the top I chuckle and shake my head for a sec but I'm not feeling appalled or angry/disappointed, it's more amusement in a positive manner. I've never played a game that was all about fanservice and had not much else going for it, I thought about buying a DOAX game over the years but then I never followed trough. I think it's because only in small doses I appreciate it, similar to a comedian on stage making a joke that goes completely overboard and you can't help but feel a little bit ashamed for enjoying it while listening to the outrage of the audience. If a comedian always goes for the outrageous reactions then that becomes boring... I like my fanservice balanced with other stupid shit

 

[Mithos]

They absolutely are. If you don't think characters like Kratos and Venom Snake are Male Power Fantasies, i'm not sure what to tell you.

I don't thing so no, I never look on someone like "anabola" Kratos and think power fantasy, as in how they are presented, being a spy, a god might be not their appearance.

 

[NahaNago]

Not gonna lie, Bayonetta was too much fanservice for me, couldn't bring myself to play the game after a couple of levels. I've played enough Japanese games to expect some fanservice and I don't generally mind it, but Bayonetta was too much for me. I avoid the games where the primary selling feature is fanservice though, despite Steam's best attempts to sell me porn VN's after buying Final Fantasy XIII.

For me i mostly forgot about the fanservice in Bayonetta and when i did notice it i honestly found it amusing most the time. Maybe my sense of humor simply matches up with the director for that game.

 

[Steel]

Of course Kratos is a male power fantasy, going on a massive rampage to FIND MAH WIFE or FIND MAH DAUGHTA(I don't remember these games well). Like that's the ultimate one.

Kratos goes on a massive rampage because he killed his own wife and daughter because of Ares-ish.

 

[Cloyster]

For me i mostly forgot about the fanservice in Bayonetta and when i did notice it i honestly found it amusing most the time. Maybe my sense of humor simply matches up with the director for that game.

It's because Bayonetta is also a really confident smart woman with agency and cool weapons, and that game also has amazing gameplay and fantastic art direction, bosses, music and style.

 

[SliceSabre]

It's almost as if women aren't one singular being.

But men are.

/s

See the problem with calling things a male power fantasy?

 

[Whompa02]

I loved MGS4 so...no...fanservice doesn't bother me at all.

 

[Yarbskoo]

Nope, quite the opposite. I like being pandered to.

 

[NotGivingMyNameToADamnCom]

Kratos goes on a massive rampage because he killed his wife and daughter because of Ares-ish.

There you go, the real ultimate power fantasy, you get to kill your own family, free your self to bachelordom, not be at fault, and then go on a massive spree killing to get revenge on the guy who is really at fault for you acting on your hidden motivations.

 

[Cloyster]

But men are.

/s

See the problem with calling things a male power fantasy?

There is a very clear idea of an ideal powerful masculine image in society, just like there is a clear idea of a sexualized female image in society.

Women don't yet have an ideal powerful female image because they haven't had the level of power men do.

The male power fantasy is very real.

 

[Kinyou]

How do we explain that many male characters in media purely for women written and designed are even several steps worse then that.

The 50 Shades of Grey main guy is basically a rapist and shit is selling like cupcakes all over the world.

Grey could probably also be interpreted as male power fantasy (isn't there one book written from his perspective?)

Generally I think that a character being a power fantasy doesn't negate that the character can also be sexualised and considered attractive by the opposite sex.

 

[Puruzi]

Generally I think that a character being a power fantasy doesn't negate that the character can also be sexualised and considered attractive by the opposite sex.

Thank you.

 

[Cloyster]

Grey could probably also be interpreted as male power fantasy (isn't there one book written from his perspective?)

Generally I think that a character being a power fantasy doesn't negate that the character can also be sexualised and considered attractive by the opposite sex.

thread making privileges is at 300 posts right?

I made a long, in depth thread about this very topic.