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[Branduil]

The Silent Realms in Skyward Sword were way better versions of both the Wind Waker stealth segments and Twilight Princess bug hunting segments.

 

[QuixoticNeutral]

If you have a lot of time on your hands to waste, and you find yourself unable to think about anything other than Zelda at the moment, you may find some amusement in skimming the review thread for Skyward Sword. Much of the first thirty pages involves calibrating the Edge review scale. Then the panic about difficulty sets in.

(It's not a great thread at all, but it does provide perspective, or at least a laugh.)

 

[MiamiWesker]

I dont care about the number I care that they feel like a proper dungeon. Very very very few games do the zelda dungeon, its one of the most unique special things in gaming that really only zelda offers. I dont want a dumbed down version of those. Yes I will be satisfied with all the shrines, and things to do. That is still no excuse to change something that has worked since the beginning and is what makes zelda zelda.

 

[MoonFrog]

Question: what are you feelings on Majora's Mask? The game had great, lengthy dungeons, but there were only four of them and made up a small portion of the game.

Well, MM. I didn't get to play it until GCN (never had a 64 so aLttP and LA were my only Zeldas before then), which I got late so I played it when OoT and WW were also first in my possession. TP was not too far after either.

The reason for the preface is, I played MM at a time when I was in a uniquely rich position for new (to me) Zelda content, but I was very open to what it was and liked the game. Moreover, I was just getting to know post LA Zelda in those days. Great times.

But...tbh MM is also a game I haven't really been drawn back to. I did all the side content and I don't really feel the need to do any of that again and it is the what is most appealing and time consuming about that game as I recall it. What draws me back to OoT, TP, SS are largely the dungeons and the amount of the game that they make up. To a lesser extent, WW too.

 

[OrbitalBeard]

I dont care about the number I care that they feel like a proper dungeon. Very very very few games do the zelda dungeon, its one of the most unique special things in gaming that really only zelda offers. I dont want a dumbed down version of those. Yes I will be satisfied with all the shrines, and things to do. That is still no excuse to change something that has worked since the beginning and is what makes zelda zelda.

They honestly don't sound dumbed down, just very different. And part of that means they're shorter.

And Nintendo has changed what makes a dungeon "a dungeon" before (although this may be the most drastic shift). So, that wouldn't be unprecedented for them.

Well, MM. I didn't get to play it until GCN (never had a 64 so aLttP and LA were my only Zeldas before then), which I got late so I played it when OoT and WW were also first in my possession. TP was not too far after either.

The reason for the preface is, I played MM at a time when I was in a uniquely rich position for new (to me) Zelda content, but I was very open to what it was and liked the game. Moreover, I was just getting to know post LA Zelda in those days. Great times.

But...tbh MM is also a game I haven't really been drawn back to. I did all the side content and I don't really feel the need to do any of that again and it is the what is most appealing and time consuming about that game as I recall it. What draws me back to OoT, TP, SS are largely the dungeons and the amount of the game that they make up. To a lesser extent, WW too.

While I think it's very possible you'll love this game, it probably won't be due to what you love about traditional 3D Zeldas.

 

[vareon]

To be fair, those dungeons were large and complex. It's a masterclass in dungeon design.

I'm ashamed to admit I need to use a guide for MM's dungeons. I mean complex designs are fun but time limits are my enemy ._.

 

[OrbitalBeard]

Guys, the full review is kind of ridiculous. In the best way possible. Like, I didn't think the game would be this good.

Yep, outside of the swamp dungeon, Majora's Mask has some of the best in the series. As a kid, Great Bay Temple was a complete mindfuck haha. Stone Tower is also wonderful.

Yeah, they're really special.

 

[jnWake]

To be fair, those dungeons were large and complex. It's a masterclass in dungeon design.

Yep, outside of the swamp dungeon, Majora's Mask has some of the best in the series. As a kid, Great Bay Temple was a complete mindfuck haha. Stone Tower is also wonderful.

 

[Neoleo2143]

I dont care about the number I care that they feel like a proper dungeon. Very very very few games do the zelda dungeon, its one of the most unique special things in gaming that really only zelda offers. I dont want a dumbed down version of those. Yes I will be satisfied with all the shrines, and things to do. That is still no excuse to change something that has worked since the beginning and is what makes zelda zelda.

In a pure sense, what made the Zelda dungeons Zelda dungeons still seems to be here just not attached to an item.

Spoiler

And if you wanted the item, you still get that anyway.

From what I see, the dungeons are built around a main elemental gimmick like past dungeons but incorporate the Physics into puzzle solving. You work your way around the enemies solving the room puzzles and piecing them together while learning the layout. Then when you get the 3D map of the dungeon, that's basically your item that reframes how the dungeon works which you then use to get to the dungeon boss. Then the boss is changed from previous entries to be far more open ended rather than having to focus on a single item with a linear route to victory.

That's the basic sense of how Dungeons in this game appear to work. There's probably more to it mechanically. But in essence what made Zelda dungeons so good has already been described to be returning. There's even a build up to each one like other 3D entries.

 

[MoonFrog]

While I think it's very possible you'll love this game, it probably won't be due to what you love about traditional 3D Zeldas.

I like PC puzzle games, so comparisons to those raise my hopes.

And I don't hate open-world, just have been less grabbed by it of late.

Idk. This Zelda is going to be a new thing. Sometimes new things make all your worrying look foolish, sometimes they bear it out.

I have no problem being a fool.

 

[Orniletter]

To be fair, the controls in skyward sword were atrocious.

They worked perfectly fine 99,9 % of the time.

 

[TheDinoman]

They worked perfectly fine 99,9 % of the time.

I mean...isn't that kind of a problem in of itself? Good controls work 100% of the time.

 

[Varjet]

To be fair, those dungeons were large and complex. It's a masterclass in dungeon design.

No, they are not. They are quite small, probably so that they could easily completed within the time limit.

 

[Skel1ingt0n]

I read the review.

Hoooooooollly shit. That closing paragraph.

OoT isn't my favorite Zelda (that praise goes to MM - one of my Top Five of all time), but it's undeniably one of the most important and influential titles ever. Their comments on it compared to BotW got me hot and bothered.

 

[OrbitalBeard]

I read the review.

Hoooooooollly shit. That closing paragraph.

OoT isn't my favorite Zelda (that praise goes to MM - one of my Top Five of all time), but it's undeniably one of the most important and influential titles ever. Their comments on it compared to BotW got me hot and bothered.

The closing paragraph is great, but it's the entire review as a whole that has me almost speechless. It's entirely possible BotW will ruin the open world genre for me.

 

[Orniletter]

Yep, outside of the swamp dungeon, Majora's Mask has some of the best in the series. As a kid, Great Bay Temple was a complete mindfuck haha. Stone Tower is also wonderful.

I think they are by far the worst.

Stone Tower is too complex for it's own good (the vampire mini-boss and the "set piece" final boss were great though), Great Bay Temple's gimmick wasnt fun at all and ice arrows are tedious to use. I'm indifferent about the second dungeon, but the broken way the developers expected you to use to get to one of the fairies is just poor by Zelda's high game design standards.

 

[MiamiWesker]

In a pure sense, what made the Zelda dungeons Zelda dungeons still seems to be here just not attached to an item.

Spoiler

And if you wanted the item, you still get that anyway.

From what I see, the dungeons are built around a main elemental gimmick like past dungeons but incorporate the Physics into puzzle solving. You work your way around the enemies solving the room puzzles and piecing them together while learning the layout. Then when you get the 3D map of the dungeon, that's basically your item that reframes how the dungeon works which you then use to get to the dungeon boss. Then the boss is changed from previous entries to be far more open ended rather than having to focus on a single item with a linear route to victory.

That's the basic sense of how Dungeons in this game appear to work. There's probably more to it mechanically. But in essence what made Zelda dungeons so good has already been described to be returning. There's even a build up to each one like other 3D entries.

This sounds good. Obviously I am reserving judgement till i play it but I have been worried about this aspect for a while. Better to just go in expecting less than I am used to with dungeons and then be surprised.

 

[Caelus]

The closing paragraph is great, but it's the entire review as a whole that has me almost speechless. It's entirely possible BotW will ruin the open world genre for me.

Maybe in the short term. In the long term I expect other games to be influenced by Zelda just as Zelda had to learn from other games, having this kind of feedback is nice and the end result is a variety of good games everyone can enjoy.

(And then we get a Majora's Mask like sequel to this game which will rupture heads, again)

 

[LotusHD]

The closing paragraph is great, but it's the entire review as a whole that has me almost speechless. It's entirely possible BotW will ruin the open world genre for me.

Considering I'm not exactly crazy about open world games these days (As in, them using it as a pitch or bragging about their large ass maps does nothing for me anymore), I'm completely fine with that. It's good to potentially have a new standard to look forward to.

 

[OrbitalBeard]

Yeah, trust me, I'm perfectly ok with this game ruining other open worlds for me. There's nothing better than playing a game that forever raises your standards for other titles.

 

[AquaWateria]

Some people said Witcher 3 ruined open world games for them due to how amazing it is.

To think Zelda went even further and single handedly has defined the genre judging by previews.

Lmao I believed the game would be great but not this amazing.

 

[Skel1ingt0n]

Yeah, trust me, I'm perfectly ok with this game ruining other open worlds for me. There's nothing better than playing a game that forever raises your standards for other titles.

I see your Bloodborne avatar and nod accordingly.

 

[LotusHD]

Some people said Witcher 3 ruined open world games for them due to how amazing it is.

I dunno about open world games, but it did teach me to have higher standards for sidequests lol

 

[AquaWateria]

I dunno about open world games, but it did teach me to have higher standards for sidequests lol

Oh yes I'm glad about that.

 

[MTC100]

Some people said Witcher 3 ruined open world games for them due to how amazing it is.

To think Zelda went even further and single handedly has defined the genre judging by previews.

Lmao I believed the game would be great but not this amazing.

Don't make the mistake to over-hype it before it's released/before you played it. Sure there are already sources that claim Zelda BotW is better than the already high expectations, even claiming a 10 point scale is too small to fit BotW in, however that are just opinions and don't have to hold true for yourself.

I also expect this Zelda to be one of the best games ever created, however I don't believe it can trounce the Witcher 3, this is almost impossible to start with.

 

[weekev]

Just woke up...5 days to go.

 

[HawthorneKitty]

Don't make the mistake to over-hype it before it's released/before you played it. Sure there are already sources that claim Zelda BotW is better than the already high expectations, even claiming a 10 point scale is too small to fit BotW in, however that are just opinions and don't have to hold true for yourself.

I also expect this Zelda to be one of the best games ever created, however I don't believe it can trounce the Witcher 3, this is almost impossible to start with.

I like how you're so open-minded, but then you narrow it to hell at the end (depending on what trounce should mean to you and if it's the word you were looking for).

 

[Dark Cloud]

Just woke up...5 days to go.

Time to go back to sleep and wake up 5 days later. Lol

 

[LotusHD]

I also expect this Zelda to be one of the best games ever created, however I don't believe it can trounce the Witcher 3, this is almost impossible to start with.

Depends what you think people expect it to trounce the game in. Main story? Side quests? The open world itself?

 

[Neoleo2143]

Don't make the mistake to over-hype it before it's released/before you played it. Sure there are already sources that claim Zelda BotW is better than the already high expectations, even claiming a 10 point scale is too small to fit BotW in, however that are just opinions and don't have to hold true for yourself.

I also expect this Zelda to be one of the best games ever created, however I don't believe it can trounce the Witcher 3, this is almost impossible to start with.

I believe it can easily best the Witcher 3. It's got more gameplay variety, stronger core mechanics, better scenario design, better enemy design and better level design to start. So it's got waaaay better base than the Witcher 3 could ever hope for.

All the Zelda team has to do is execute the writing and from what we've heard they've been putting in the work in that department too in order to make the world fit together.

 

[MiamiWesker]

I believe it can easily best the Witcher 3. It's got more gameplay variety, stronger core mechanics, better scenario design, better enemy design and better level design to start. So it's got waaaay better base than the Witcher 3 could ever hope for.

All the Zelda team has to do is execute the writing and from what we've heard they've been putting in the work in that department too in order to make the world fit together.

I think witcher 3 is overrated, its strength is the story and the beautiful open world, the gameplay is rather simplistic. Gameplay is what matters, Zelda is magnitudes so much more complex than witcher 3 I don't even think its a fair comparison.

 

[AquaWateria]

Don't make the mistake to over-hype it before it's released/before you played it. Sure there are already sources that claim Zelda BotW is better than the already high expectations, even claiming a 10 point scale is too small to fit BotW in, however that are just opinions and don't have to hold true for yourself.

I also expect this Zelda to be one of the best games ever created, however I don't believe it can trounce the Witcher 3, this is almost impossible to start with.

I mean if Zelda has better gameplay then it will definitely trounce it for me since that was the biggest weakness Witcher 3 had.

Judging by the gameplay videos it seems to be that way.

 

[Mr_Kuschels]

I believe it can easily best the Witcher 3. It's got more gameplay variety, stronger core mechanics, better scenario design, better enemy design and better level design to start. So it's got waaaay better base than the Witcher 3 could ever hope for.

All the Zelda team has to do is execute the writing and from what we've heard they've been putting in the work in that department too in order to make the world fit together.

I'm super hyped for Botw too and have only scratched the surface of the Witcher 3 (about 10 hours in), but to say "It's got more gameplay variety, stronger core mechanics, better scenario design, better enemy design and better level design to start" is far fetched at this point. Wait until the game's out and then you can claim all those things.

 

[marc^o^]

tried to sum up that podcast because it keeps getting brought up and makes some really good points. so since it's about zelda austin does most of the talking and comparing and it should be noted that he didn't like horizon as much as the other host patrick (?) who thought the game was excellent with a few flaws. there are so many points being made so it's long but it was a really good discussion.



-horizon is a great game but the potential it showed is a bit larger than what it ended up living up to. laid a great foundation for a sequel
-larger story is great, feels like that's the highest point of praise. the things that it explores are really deep and interesting
-there are some bad exposition dumps, thought there had to be a way to do that better
-the game world feels a tad restricting for how inviting it seems. little things like aloy being incredibly acrobatic but not being able to walk over a small curb.
-aloy is great
-there's a moment with aloy at the end that's great and is a moment of the year contender
-wanted the world to feel more organic with more interaction between stuff like observing enemies fighting each other etc. "it's very rare that you find the world systemically interacting with one another". feels like when that itch was scratched it was because the game was scripting it to happen.
-horizon vs. zelda is like digital vs. analog (understands that's a weak analogy that won't hold up to scrutiny)
-in horizon you do the things the game wants you to do; specified walls to climb with predetermined route etc. vs. in zelda you can climb essentially anything you want and find your own path. the feeling of "I bet I can do this" and then being able to do it is greater in zelda.
-every impulse of exploration in zelda has been rewarded; scratching all the itches
-last zelda austin beat was MM
-would rate botw very high; ~12 hours in
-says this zelda feels like a new sub-genre to open world games. brings up witcher 3 in one corner, assassin's creed/ubi stuff in another, bioware type stuff in another, and says zelda feels like another distinct thing. hadn't seen exploration like this in the open world space outside of stuff like minecraft.
-playing zelda and horizon back to back made him realize that maybe open world fatigue isn't actually a thing and we as gamers should make the harder conclusion of zooming in and realizing that specific game isn't executing
-you're always going to be discovering things between objectives; world is filled with little environmental puzzles; encourages you to take notice of all of your surroundings
-shrines scratch the dungeon itch
-compares shrines to Nintendo's take on Portal levels; many "aha" moments
-very cool story mechanic thing, can't talk about it
-game is difficult; enemy ai is good; has died a lot; didn't die as much in horizon
-compares game to far cry; describes scenario where he was low on health and needed to get to a place, comes across a bokoblin camp and doesn't want to directly engage, finds a boulder, lifts boulder with magnet, searches for the right spot/angle to drop it, and drops it on an explosive barrel and blows the camp up.
-stuff like the above makes the story telling feel more connected to the player; zelda games the story is usually told to the the player, this is the player making his/her own story. horizon doesn't allow for player stories as much, not what it's going for though.
-combat/design in horizon doesn't push you to be creative, only a few fights where you are forced to utilize your full skill set. easy to become habitual.
-zelda pushes you to improvise a lot
-weapon degradation is cool. when you engage in combat early on you're committing to something breaking but you typically leave that combat encounter with better gear. save good gear for more significant fights/scenarios. the game does push you to use your better gear though.
-different weapon types have strengthens and weaknesses; sledge hammer is good for breaking up ore, axe for chopping trees, move set in combat, etc.
-there are special weapons for doing certain things
-enjoys cooking; very intuitive with how you combine items to make a dish
-npc interactions are great in zelda. contrasts with horizon where he wasn't excited about seeing people out and about like in zelda.
-zelda conveys both the warmth and the terror of a studio ghibli film.
-feeling of wonder and mystery in zelda; contrasts with some other open world games where you get the objective and do the objective without feeling like doing anything else in between
-has been using the screenshot function a lot which is indicative of it being a good game

then they swerve to Switch talk overall but I think they answer some more Zelda realted questions at the end so here's the podcast link

https://waypoint.vice.com/en_us/art...-the-wild-first-impressions-on-waypoint-radio

Great summary. I would add this:

He says shrines feel as clever and satisfyinf as Portal and Captain Toad levels.

 

[OrbitalBeard]

Yeah, overtaking The Witcher 3 for me isn't going to be very difficult, even if this is one of the worst Zelda games. And I like The Witcher 3. I fully expect Horizon: Zero Dawn to be a better game than TW3 as well.

 

[Nickle]

How long did the Edge reviewer play the game for?

 

[Neoleo2143]

I'm super hyped for Botw too and have only scratched the surface of the Witcher 3 (about 10 hours in), but to say "It's got more gameplay variety, stronger core mechanics, better scenario design, better enemy design and better level design to start" is far fetched at this point. Wait until the game's out and then you can claim all those things.

I think I'm more than capable of calling that (because we've seen so much already) Zelda has stronger core mechanics because Link is way more versatile than a lategame Geralt 1 hour into the game. Link objectively controls tighter than Geralt. Link clearly has had better balance put into his moveset. For an easy contrast, Durability in Witcher 3 is trash and offers no benefit to the game. Taking Durability out of Zelda would break the game balance.

On enemy design, the Hitboxes in Zelda utterly embarrass Witcher 3. It's not close nor pretty. The enemy AI and set ups are also better take advantage of most of Link's moveset. You're often fighting around a vertical environment not simply on flat ground. In addition, the physics engine adds a lot of depth to knock back and learning enemy moves is reliable and fair. Link Controlling better than Geralt adds a lot more to this aspect of the game.

On gameplay variety, the environmental Puzzles in Zelda are the norm, Puzzles in Witcher 3 are the exception. You could be shifting between Climbing a surface, Shield surfing, Hang gliding, cook, fighting and using your various runes to solve puzzles and items in the environment have actual properties that are relevant to gameplay. And all of that demands a particular skill set, hence greater gameplay variety. In Witcher 3 you collect, cook, Chat and fight and follow your Witcher senses to the end of quests and climbing is basic.

Perhaps I spoke early on level design, but frankly, dungeons in Zelda would likely tear apart any section in Witcher 3 in terms of level design. I'm more than confident in saying that.

Scenario design. Zelda has more varied mechanics than Witcher. Because Zelda has more varied mechanics and Nintendo are composed of some of the best Scenario designers in the world, you do the math.

Witcher 3's strength is in its writing and visuals/presentation. Everything else is likely to pale in comparison to Zelda because of what the strengths of who is making the game are.

 

[wmlk]

Witcher 3's strength is in its writing and visuals/presentation. Everything else is likely to pale in comparison to Zelda because of what the strengths of who is making the game are.

This would only really matter if every category was weighed evenly, but clearly they're not to many as TW3's racked up an absurd number of awards the past couple years. I don't get being dismissive comparing things like this when this part is so obvious.

 

[MatrixMan.EXE]

I like that summary of the podcast, though I think Zelda opening up a new sub-genre is a bit misplaced because to me, it looks like the same sort of experimental sandbox gameplay that you see in Just Cause, with a little bit of Far Cry thrown in as well. You mix that with Zelda staples like dungeons and you get something that is more of a nice evolution of Zelda than the genre itself.

Of course, I haven't played it yet, but this is just going off of the tonnes of media and impressions I've seen so far. Can't wait.

 

[dampflokfreund]

How long did the Edge reviewer play the game for?

I want to know this as well. Any info on that? Considering its the first review and that he just seems to guess the game's structure and length, he hasn't finished it yet.

 

[Realeza]

Glad to hear the shrines are seemingly great. That's one of the best things about BoTW. In open world games, exploring the map usually yields insignificant rewards, but with Zelda, the reward is the gameplay itself.

 

[Aostia]

Some people said Witcher 3 ruined open world games for them due to how amazing it is.

To think Zelda went even further and single handedly has defined the genre judging by previews.

Lmao I believed the game would be great but not this amazing.

Why Zelda shouldn't be able to be better Jan witcher?
I am not saying it is or will

 

[Metroidvania]

-weapon degradation is cool. when you engage in combat early on you're committing to something breaking but you typically leave that combat encounter with better gear. save good gear for more significant fights/scenarios. the game does push you to use your better gear though.

I will give Austin a little benefit of the doubt (the 'little' stemming from my vast difference of opinion re: Fallout 4 and the settlement building), but this still honestly worries me by far the most out of what is being reported.

 

[WadeitOut]

Yeah, overtaking The Witcher 3 for me isn't going to be very difficult, even if this is one of the worst Zelda games. And I like The Witcher 3. I fully expect Horizon: Zero Dawn to be a better game than TW3 as well.

Different strokes. The TW3 atmosphere and world just appeal to me way more to me than horizon. And I generally tend to lean more SciFi than fantasy.

 

[dampflokfreund]

I will give Austin a little benefit of the doubt (the 'little' stemming from my vast difference of opinion re: Fallout 4 and the settlement building), but this still honestly worries me by far the most out of what is being reported.

Doesn't worry me in the slightest, infact it does look like a cool concept. What worries me is that the dungeons "are hardly the same complex network puzzle chambers we're used to" and that the game can be

Spoiler

broken down into 5 constituent parts reclaiming the 4 Divine Beasts and the final assault on Hyrule Castle - the concerted player with a lesser focus could rattle through that in 20 hours

Other than that I'm loving everything I hear about the game so far. But man, that really did hurt and is a huge deal to me. I love my complex dungeons and that the final destination is usually not clear until the big twist which isn't the case here...

Its interesting that everyone has different hopes and fears for the game. This really is a prove for how diverse the Zelda series is.

 

[Admiral Alliteration]

I'm really looking forward to that issue! Unfortunately, #303 only just arrived yesterday.

Also, I'm wondering when was the last time the Edge cover game was also reviewed in that same issue?

 

[Cthulhu_Steev]

Btw, the anyone else say "Bawtwaw" when saying BotW out loud?

Well first we'd have to ask how the hell you're saying 'btw' out loud.

 

[Pyroblazer]

I will give Austin a little benefit of the doubt (the 'little' stemming from my vast difference of opinion re: Fallout 4 and the settlement building), but this still honestly worries me by far the most out of what is being reported.

Yeah same here. That doesn't sound good for me. If I find a cool and strong weapon, I want to keep it and use it. If I am not able to use it, because it can break, but I am forced to use it, so it will break anyway, that isn't really encouraging for me. I really hope there is a way to get it back or repair it, otherwise it will probably just kill my motivation to get out and find some cool gear a bit.

 

[OrbitalBeard]

I want to know this as well. Any info on that? Considering its the first review and that he just seems to guess the game's structure and length, he hasn't finished it yet.

The reviewer absolutely finished the game. It's briefly talked about in the post-review.

Different strokes. The TW3 atmosphere and world just appeal to me way more to me than horizon. And I generally tend to lean more SciFi than fantasy.

I'm actually not all that impressed with Horizon's world (though it seems cool enough), but I am impressed with its gameplay. I found The Witcher 3's combat to be utterly boring.

 

[Neoleo2143]

Yeah same here. That doesn't sound good for me. If I find a cool and strong weapon, I want to keep it and use it. If I am not able to use it, because it can break, but I am forced to use it, so it will break anyway, that isn't really encouraging for me. I really hope there is a way to get it back or repair it, otherwise it will probably just kill my motivation to get out and find some cool gear a bit.

Or it could make you want to go out and find more good gear to replace the old?

Using a weapon in breath of the wild is a strategic choice. The Game expects you to have the 4 main types of weapons at most moments. You're not going to just use one and stick to it like in Dark Souls, the game balanced around using everything in Link's Tool kit.