ultrazilla
Member
No sources for that article *BUT* it does kinda jive with the apparent later in the year reveal for the system. Perhaps Nintendo is beefing up some specs in light of the Neo and Scorpio. Thanks for the article Anondreas!
I think the silence in general is a big issue for everyone, not just developers. As for specific problems with the SDK, I think I've come up with a good illustrative example of what LCGeek means when she says the SDK tools are lacking:
Think about Mario Kart 8. That game was hailed for its spectacular lighting work, and having a game like that running on the Wii U shows that it's quite possible to get very good visuals if you know your way around the hardware. Imagine now that you are a third party developer, and you received a SDK from Nintendo with barely any content examples or adequate tools for developing said lighting, and then you see MK8 release, and know that it was done internally by Nintendo.
When you see that, it must feel like a sucker punch to the gut. Nintendo knows how to program these visuals on a Wii U, yet they don't give you any input on how it's done. It honestly feels like Nintendo is purposefully holding back what you can do with the console so that their content, alone, feels like the superior, best showcase on the console.
This seems to be how they treat third party developers, and after many years of this it's gotta be very hard to have interest in developing for Nintendo hardware, when they consistently fail to deliver on tools for you to make your games. Nintendo should have invested time into making incredible tools, engines, tech demos, and examples for the SDKs to minimize the time, effort and money needed by third parties to create games for their console. The fact that they seemingly still haven't done that is pretty worrying for me, much more worrying than any discussion about specs is.
Nintendo is known to give 3rd party developers poor documentation with dev kits. I figured that is what the poster was referencing.
Out of curiosity, how much did the Wii U sdk improve over time?
"The difference with Wii U was that when we first started out, getting the graphics and GPU to run at an acceptable frame-rate was a real struggle. The hardware was always there, it was always capable. Nintendo gave us a lot of support - support which helps people who are doing cross-platform development actually get the GPU running to the kind of rate we've got it at now. We benefited by not quite being there for launch - we got a lot of that support that wasn't there at day one... the tools, everything."
Isn't that usually how it is because the platform holder themselves has to bug test it/break it in so to speak?
This sounds a lot like a shared library between console and handheld.
Sadly I remember very similar logic with Wii and Wii U. Besides that, Nintendo would pretty much have to go out of their way to put out a modern CPU that's weaker than PS4's.
She can't reveal the manufacturer of the CPU/GPU or concrete specs or features of the SDK."Other more prominent details are not wise been warned as much on various levels."
I don't understand this sentence from LCGeek, anyone?
It needs a couple more words and some proper punctuation, but basically infers that they know more interesting details and can't talk about them as they have been warned many times that they shouldn't."Other more prominent details are not wise been warned as much on various levels."
I don't understand this sentence from LCGeek, anyone?
She can't reveal the manufacturer of the CPU/GPU or concrete specs or features of the SDK.
Change of plans after RX 480 reveal?
This thread is so depressing. So it looks like Nintendo hasnt learned much from their last few consoles and will probably get 0 3rd party support. If that is the case, why not just make games for every platform under the sun. But I guess if NX flops they will have to anyway. Zelda and Mario on PS5/Xboxtwo/Steam will be great. And no Nintendo is not Sega.
Haha. Have absolutely no idea who they are.Nintendo doesn't change plans on a whim. Especially from articles with 'Tales from their Ass' written all over it.
Haha. Have absolutely no idea who they are.
But since they haven't gone into production and no one knows their specs yet, might be just a slight possibility at that attractive price/cost?
Dude, your constant "Going 3rd party" crap is getting annoying ... how about you try to contribute to the thread and it's discussion instead of this shit-posting ... or you know, if that's no possible, how about not posting in here at all then?This thread is so depressing. So it looks like Nintendo hasnt learned much from their last few consoles and will probably get 0 3rd party support. If that is the case, why not just make games for every platform under the sun. But I guess if NX flops they will have to anyway. Zelda and Mario on PS5/Xboxtwo/Steam will be great. And no Nintendo is not Sega.
What was the OsirisBlack post? I haven't seen that.Dude, your constant "Going 3rd party" crap is getting annoying ... how about you try to contribute to the thread and it's discussion instead of this shit-posting ... or you know, if that's no possible, how about not posting in here at all then?
Even if NX is another flop, there's still the handheld and it's massive blockbuster IP catalogue and the mobile efforts that probably will keep them alive for yet another gen.
And where is this 3rd party shit jumping to conclusions coming from? LCGeek's posts can be seen as the situation being ok, not ideally and definitely room for improvement, and we have this OsirisBlack post about "Nintendo is fine", so how can one ignore so many posts?
Dude, your constant "Going 3rd party" crap is getting annoying ... how about you try to contribute to the thread and it's discussion instead of this shit-posting ... or you know, if that's no possible, how about not posting in here at all then?
Even if NX is another flop, there's still the handheld and it's massive blockbuster IP catalogue and the mobile efforts that probably will keep them alive for yet another gen.
And where is this 3rd party shit jumping to conclusions coming from? LCGeek's posts can be seen as the situation being ok, not ideally and definitely room for improvement, and we have this OsirisBlack post about "Nintendo is fine", so how can one ignore so many posts?
Nintendo is doomed, going 3rd party is very much "shit posting".An opinion you dont like is not "shit posting".
To add context to my previous post (I was asked via PM) without going into too much detail any game that runs on the XB1 or PS4 should run on the NX with little to no issue. What developers choose to or not to port to the console will more than likely depend on consumer support for the thing.
What was the OsirisBlack post? I haven't seen that.
Other crap and my own thoughts.
The dev tool rumors are officially all over the fucking place, lol.
I consider it shit posting, if that's everything i read from you in nearly all NX related threads. And "i wish for Nintend to go 3rd party" is not a "no unrealistic scenario" as much as it is "i want this, i want that, i want it".An opinion you dont like is not "shit posting".
This thread turned into another NX speculation thread, so there is nothing wrong with talking about what might happen if the NX is another misfire. Which is not unrealistic when insiders keep giving us hints that arent exactly inspiring hope.
Is it misreading, misunderstanding or simply just downright ignoring things that don't fit your already made up agenda in your mind?Nope I'm not that informed. I like where things are going from what I can see.
I've wanted unity and good quick software focus for years. Pulling that off is the hard part.
Yeah, ofcourse an SDK can improve, but this should have been one of their priorities.The SDK can improve over time...
I get the impression that there are lot more western-speaking people involved with their hardware this time, internally, if you go by their job listings over the past 12-18 months. So...it SHOULD have better documentation in English. I emphasize SHOULD, mind you.
Thanks for the info LCGeek.
It kind of confirms that they'll have decent hardware, but nintendo being nintendo they don't putting enough effort in documenting their SDK in english, or making it towards western dev standards (with intellisense/visual studio/examples etc)
They really should create an engine team in the US/EU that is dual language japanese/english to overcome this - they could function both as SDK developers and helpdesk for third party studios and tools after launch.
Well, they still have some time to make things better, so here's hoping that they are going to do their homework. I just hope that devs actually give them feedback somehow.I get the impression that there are lot more western-speaking people involved with their hardware this time, internally, if you go by their job listings over the past 12-18 months. So...it SHOULD have better documentation in English. I emphasize SHOULD, mind you.
I hope I won't sound harsh or something (also, please consider there might be language issues on my part since I'm not a native speaker) but I wonder then why are you painting such a catastrophic scenario when you're even aknowledging your perspective might be skewed due to various reasons?Stated it multiple times yes and it's old at this point which can skew my perspective. Not only that not all SDKs are equal.
Thanks for that."Nintendo will be fine" followed by..
"To add context to my previous post (I was asked via PM) without going into too much detail any game that runs on the XB1 or PS4 should run on the NX with little to no issue. What developers choose to or not to port to the console will more than likely depend on consumer support for the thing."
Stated it multiple times yes and it's old at this point which can skew my perspective. Not only that not all SDKs are equal.
Easy and friendly are one thing nuance and depth is another. Nintendo has something which is a lot better than almost 2 generations of nothing.
That is very disingenuous to use Mario Kart 8 as an example. Mario Kart 8 came out 18 months after the launch of the Wii U. Most of the issues with the SDK was ironed out by then. Your scenario would have hold up if Mario Kart 8 was a an actual launch title.
Users, NateDrake and brainpann, it would be best if you read this article from
Eurogamer.
From the article:
Hey LCG. Thanks for fielding all these questions and for all the info you've provided. I just want to make sure I understand this bit, though. It seems like you're saying this SDK is an improvement over prior Nintendo SDKS. Is that correct?
And if so, how does this SDK compare to PS4 and XB1 SDKs? If you aren't any more impressed with those for example thak you are with the NX one, as Skittzo mentioned that gives us a better barometer of how much more difficult this SDK might be for third parties.
Thanks for your time!
"Amd, which competes with Intel and nvidia in the cpu market, dominetes the gaming console market. It's the sole supplier of semi-custom processors for japan-based Sony PlayStation 4 and MS Xbox. It has also won an order for Nintendo's upcoming console, codenamed "NX""
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/amd-revenues-hit-weakness-semi-130735686.html
Link posted by 10k
"Amd, which competes with Intel and nvidia in the cpu market, dominetes the gaming console market. It's the sole supplier of semi-custom processors for japan-based Sony PlayStation 4 and MS Xbox. It has also won an order for Nintendo's upcoming console, codenamed "NX""
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/amd-revenues-hit-weakness-semi-130735686.html
Link posted by 10k
AAA Zelda and Mario on PS5/Xb2/Steam won't exist even if Nintendo drops out of hardware. The cost of games like that is subsidized by pushing hardware, without a system to justify the investment Nintendo won't bother and will instead focus on lower investment / higher return mobile development. Just like the rest of Japan.This thread is so depressing. So it looks like Nintendo hasnt learned much from their last few consoles and will probably get 0 3rd party support. If that is the case, why not just make games for every platform under the sun. But I guess if NX flops they will have to anyway. Zelda and Mario on PS5/Xboxtwo/Steam will be great. And no Nintendo is not Sega.
You're basing this on one article where a developer was able to get good assistance from Nintendo, and a quote from a Nintendo software guy made this year. However, we have input from other developers (including LCGeek here) that SDK tools and documentation have been pretty poor from Nintendo over the past few generations. Obviously Nintendo themselves won't come out and say they have bad tools.
We can only really take in all of the information we have to make an educated guess about the situation, but it seems more like Nintendo's tools are okay, the documentation behind them is very poor, and the ability to contact them for support is hit or miss.
The impression I got from LCGeek is that Nintendo's SDKs are not as well documented and helpful as those from Sony and MS, especially for western developers. It's likely because the latter two companies have a much more western focus, and Nintendo knows it can help their Japanese development partners with relative ease.
But one of the main themes we keep seeing from these developers is specifically that the SDK documentation is really quite poor. Developers like Criterion shouldn't need to contact Nintendo for support in getting the GPU running. That's just dumb. It should have the necessary information with it to allow professional game developers to create games for the console without all these weird barriers.
Hopefully this is something they've fixed or are fixing with the NX. Takahashi's quote on the last page (or two pages ago, can't remember) seems to indicate that they are focused on improving SDK tools themselves, but as I said before documentation is just as important, so that developers know how to actually use those SDK tools without having to knock down Nintendo's door.
I will implore you to read the reddit threads linked below. Just about every console have had their individual quirks. Even in those post below some developers mention that Nintendo "tools" may be lacking; however, there are developers that doesn't even mention "tools" as a problem. I'm not sure what to actually believe is true. But, from what I can infer, is that this isn't only a Nintendo problem.
https://www.reddit.com/r/gamedev/comments/xddlp/describe_what_developing_for_each_console_youve/
https://www.reddit.com/r/gamedev/comments/3c62bu/how_easy_is_it_developing_games_for_the_big_three/
Nintendo Wii: "You're wondering why Nintendo doesn't provide good tools? Haha, where would their competitive edge be?"
Sony (PS4)
Very supportive of us as an indie. Showcased us at dozens of events and gave us demo spots on their kiosks.
Tons of SDK examples and very well-organized API.
Nintendo (Wii U)
Also very supportive of us as an indie. Included us in Nintendo Direct. They also prominently feature indies on the front of their e-shop often.
From our experience, support team very knowledgeable about technical issues we had with Wii U and very quick to respond.
Lots of technical issues we ran into had to do with endianness or other obscure crashes that we couldn't quite figure out why they would happen (compiler optimizations?). Lots of trial and error to figure out.
SDK examples are minimal and not well-organized. In general, there was also a lack of tools. Very slow compile times.
Lower technical specs wouldn't be so bad for development if the tools/platform were easier to develop with.
The SDK and dev kit in general require a lot of setup and care before using it.
Could of sworn it's the games that subsidize the consoles with this gen being the first gen they sell consoles for profit instead of a loss.AAA Zelda and Mario on PS5/Xb2/Steam won't exist even if Nintendo drops out of hardware. The cost of games like that is subsidized by pushing hardware, without a system to justify the investment Nintendo won't bother and will instead focus on lower investment / higher return mobile development. Just like the rest of Japan.
The day Nintendo leaves hardware is also going to be the day you lose high production 3D Mario and Zelda games. Be careful what you wish for.
It's both. 3D Mario and Zelda are high cost production and extremely polished games made to move hardware. If Nintendo doesn't have to worry about moving hardware though, they can invest less in other games that are themselves much more profitable. Probably on your phone.Could of sworn it's the games that subsidize the consoles with this gen being the first gen they sell consoles for profit instead of a loss.
Sadly I remember very similar logic with Wii and Wii U
https://www.nintendo.co.uk/Iwata-As...nted-Use-of-the-Latest-Technology-205699.htmlThat did not apply to Wii.Sadly I remember very similar logic with Wii and Wii UNintendo would pretty much have to go out of their way to put out a modern CPU that's weaker than PS4's.
Shiota: At the risk of oversimplifying, I would say that the technologies that form the basis of all semiconductors are not that different from each other. On the other hand, how these fundamental technologies are applied depends on the device itself. Wii takes full advantage of state-of-the-art semiconductor technologies, but its application of them differs greatly from that of other devices. So, while the fact that we are using state-of-the-art semiconductor technology does not differ from my original expectations, the way in which we are using them has turned out to be very different.
Shiota: Mr Takeda also mentioned this, but normally when you decide to use new semiconductor technology, you do so solely for the sake of more extravagance and higher performance. In the case of the CPU, you try to progressively improve its processing power, which in turn raises its power consumption and increases its size. Sophisticated semiconductor technology is required to realise this goal. While you could use such cutting-edge semiconductor technology in order to facilitate this kind of extravagance, you can choose to apply this technology in other ways, such as making chips smaller. We have utilised the technology in this way so that we could minimise the power consumption of Wii. If the chip becomes smaller, we can make the size of the console smaller. With a smaller chip and minimised power consumption, Wii can be left on 24 hours a day. This is what I meant when I said that the way Wii makes use of state-of-the-art technologies is completely different from the way in which they are used in other devices.
Shiota: Yes, there was some conflict. To be honest, I even felt quite anxious about it. After all, it takes a lot of courage to divert from the Roadmaps. I was especially concerned when it was still not very clear to me what could be done with such a machine. The hurdle of reducing power consumption could be overcome. We were certain that we could achieve this goal in the early stages of development. But the conflict and concern did not go away until it was clear how this would change the gaming experience. Once the concept of Wii as a console where something new happens every day became clear, we were certain that we had made the right choice. This concept is made possible by the fact that Wii can stay on for 24 hours a day.
Shiota: Lets see. When we were struggling to reduce the power consumption, there was a point in time when we simulated how power consumption would change in existing devices if we applied cutting-edge semiconductor technology to them. In the case of the GameCube, we discovered that the power consumption could be reduced to between one-third and one-quarter of the consumption of the GameCube's semiconductors. I was really impressed with these results. Of course, I was surprised by the data itself, but it was also the moment at which I was struck by the originality of Nintendo. Normally, when making new devices, companies compete with each other on the basis of How much faster is the CPU, how much more memory is there, and how many more polygons can be displayed? But Nintendo posed the question How much can we decrease power consumption and maintain performance?
https://www.nintendo.co.uk/Iwata-As...nted-Use-of-the-Latest-Technology-205699.html
Nintendo went out of their way to make Wii an entire generation weaker than the Xbox360 which launched a year earlier than it did, because Nintendo cared more about small form factor and leaving the console turned on 24/7 than they did about graphics performance.
https://www.nintendo.co.uk/Iwata-As...nted-Use-of-the-Latest-Technology-205699.html
Nintendo went out of their way to make Wii an entire generation weaker than the Xbox360 which launched a year earlier than it did, because Nintendo cared more about small form factor and leaving the console turned on 24/7 than they did about graphics performance.
Hey LCG. Thanks for fielding all these questions and for all the info you've provided. I just want to make sure I understand this bit, though. It seems like you're saying this SDK is an improvement over prior Nintendo SDKS. Is that correct?
And if so, how does this SDK compare to PS4 and XB1 SDKs? If you aren't any more impressed with those for example thak you are with the NX one, as Skittzo mentioned that gives us a better barometer of how much more difficult this SDK might be for third parties.
Thanks for your time!