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Engadget: Cuphead is as wondrous as it is difficult

nkarafo

Member
As far as I know, there are literally zero 2D games that have actual 60fps animation. Unless people count things like Vectorman, Ernest Evans, or any other marionette animated games.
Same thing applies for most animated movies and shows. There are very few that move with 24 different animation frames, most just use repeated frames, even if the camera pans at 24 fps.

How many frames does CupHead use for animating the characters? I asked once if its a "frame by frame" animation but at 60fps it obviously isn't. But it still looks smoother than average animations so how does it compared with the likes of Akira, Roger Rabbit and The Thief and the Cobbler in number of different frames per second?
 

Epcott

Member
i'm kinda disappointed to be hearing it's still largely a boss rush title? i though all this extra time was to make it more...traditional? platforming? levels? regular enemies?...like a 1940's style mario. i'll probably still pick it up though since it looks so nice.

You just made me want a side scrolling Super Mario Bros in this style, in black and white, with Mario & Luigi in color, looking like the original Mario Bros. artwork 😳

But that aside, I really hope they do add more platforming. I'm happy they have difficulty settings, I just don't have the patience for crushing difficulty like I used to.
 

Teeth

Member
Can you go in a little more depth about this, or point me to where I can learn more about what they did with the animation in the recent Rayman games? That's a topic that really interests me, even though I have no real technical knowledge about it.

About a year ago some people on GAF were asking me to make a thread about this and I said I would, but I just haven't had any time (if I were to do it, I'd want to do it right, with visual examples). I still plan on doing it sometime after Cuphead is released and I'm not being smashed under crunch. But I'll give the briefest description here:
1) Marionetting - this is where animation is made out of single still frames that are cut up into pieces along the joints (elbows, shoulders, etc). Those still pictures (or "bones") are moved around by the engine. This gives a VERY "flash" look, as the character looks like a marionette that is being jangled around rather than being animated.

2) Morphmation - this is animation that is done by taking a still frame and then warping (stretching, expanding, shrinking) that image to infer motion. It is also usually done in engine, rather than frame by frame. This is often used for "breathing" animations on figures, as you can just expand and deflate the stomachs or squash and stretch the still frame without having to redraw it.

The above two styles are used often for a number of reasons:
1) It's cheaper because you only have to do a couple of drawings and then manipulate them in engine
2) It can operate at any framerate, because the animation is just moving still images around the screen
3)You can have extremely detailed art assets, because they only have to be drawn a couple of times.
4) Editing animations is very easy and doesn't require any re-drawing, so tweaking timings and motions is a breeze.
5) You can create tons of variation without having to draw a billion things. For a different sword, you just draw the sword once, then manipulate it in space, no need to draw every frame in the animation again.

Then, there's traditional animation. Which is literally just drawing every single frame of an animation. Classic animation stems from cinema, so the standard was in 24frame per second. Most American animation is done on 'twos', which means that there are 12 frames of animation per second (each frame is held for two visual beats). Most cheap Japanese animation is done on 'threes' (where every frame is held for three visual beats). There's variation, of course, as fast motion requires ones or twos, and very slow motion can be on threes or worse to save money/time.

But back in the 30s, animation all was done on 'ones'...which is literally drawing a new frame for every single visual beat. 24 full fat frames per second. So that's what we did and it goes a long way to why the game looks the way it does. It also means that it takes twice or three times as long as normal animation. We're over 50,000 frames at this point.

Same thing applies for most animated movies and shows. There are very few that move with 24 different animation frames, most just use repeated frames, even if the camera pans at 24 fps.

How many frames does CupHead use for animating the characters? I asked once if its a "frame by frame" animation but at 60fps it obviously isn't. But it still looks smoother than average animations so how does it compared with the likes of Akira, Roger Rabbit and The Thief and the Cobbler in number of different frames per second?

As noted above, we're on ones, so it's 24fps of unique animations. Though, if I'm being honest (and don't tell anyone), we've had to cheat for gameplay purposes on some animations...we occasionally run up to 40fps of unique animations to get the timings correct.

I don't know what Akira runs at, but Roger Rabbit is twos for the most part (12fps) with ones (24fps) for fast motions. Edit, I'm wrong, it's on ones.
 

gamz

Member
About a year ago some people on GAF were asking me to make a thread about this and I said I would, but I just haven't had any time (if I were to do it, I'd want to do it right, with visual examples). I still plan on doing it sometime after Cuphead is released and I'm not being smashed under crunch. But I'll give the briefest description here:
1) Marionetting - this is where animation is made out of single still frames that are cut up into pieces along the joints (elbows, shoulders, etc). Those still pictures (or "bones") are moved around by the engine. This gives a VERY "flash" look, as the character looks like a marionette that is being jangled around rather than being animated.

2) Morphmation - this is animation that is done by taking a still frame and then warping (stretching, expanding, shrinking) that image to infer motion. It is also usually done in engine, rather than frame by frame. This is often used for "breathing" animations on figures, as you can just expand and deflate the stomachs or squash and stretch the still frame without having to redraw it.

The above two styles are used often for a number of reasons:
1) It's cheaper because you only have to do a couple of drawings and then manipulate them in engine
2) It can operate at any framerate, because the animation is just moving still images around the screen
3)You can have extremely detailed art assets, because they only have to be drawn a couple of times.
4) Editing animations is very easy and doesn't require any re-drawing, so tweaking timings and motions is a breeze.
5) You can create tons of variation without having to draw a billion things. For a different sword, you just draw the sword once, then manipulate it in space, no need to draw every frame in the animation again.

Then, there's traditional animation. Which is literally just drawing every single frame of an animation. Classic animation stems from cinema, so the standard was in 24frame per second. Most American animation is done on 'twos', which means that there are 12 frames of animation per second (each frame is held for two visual beats). Most cheap Japanese animation is done on 'threes' (where every frame is held for three visual beats). There's variation, of course, as fast motion requires ones or twos, and very slow motion can be on threes or worse to save money/time.

But back in the 30s, animation all was done on 'ones'...which is literally drawing a new frame for every single visual beat. 24 full fat frames per second. So that's what we did and it goes a long way to why the game looks the way it does. It also means that it takes twice or three times as long as normal animation. We're over 50,000 frames at this point.



As noted above, we're on ones, so it's 24fps of unique animations. Though, if I'm being honest (and don't tell anyone), we've had to cheat for gameplay purposes on some animations...we occasionally run up to 40fps of unique animations to get the timings correct.

I don't know what Akira runs at, but Roger Rabbit is twos for the most part (12fps) with ones (24fps) for fast motions.

Incredible information. I can't imagine the amount of time this took. How many years has it been in production?
 
My younger sister and I have been frothing for this game since it was first shown. Somehow I feel like the gameplay will be a little bit of a let down, but as a purely artistic achievement this has been a great project to follow. Man that sound design is still pretty rough though
 
My younger sister and I have been frothing for this game since it was first shown. Somehow I feel like the gameplay will be a little bit of a let down, but as a purely artistic achievement this has been a great project to follow. Man that sound design is still pretty rough though

Gameplay isn't a letdown at all, unless you want it to be something else than the awesome run & gun game it is.
 

nkarafo

Member
As noted above, we're on ones, so it's 24fps of unique animations. Though, if I'm being honest (and don't tell anyone), we've had to cheat for gameplay purposes on some animations...we occasionally run up to 40fps of unique animations to get the timings correct.
"Ones" means one different frame of animation for each frame on display right? So, since the game runs at 60fps it's not on ones anymore, unless it used 60 different frames of animation. At 24 it would be if it was a movie though. But correct me if i'm wrong since i'm not an animation expert.

Are you sure about Roger Rabbit being on twos? I was sure it's on ones (24 frames) that's why the animated characters move so smoothly and don't stand out that much compare to the real actors on screen. It's also how Richard William animates in general, it's like his thing. Because of this he could never finish The Thief and the Cobbler properly.
 

gamz

Member
My younger sister and I have been frothing for this game since it was first shown. Somehow I feel like the gameplay will be a little bit of a let down, but as a purely artistic achievement this has been a great project to follow. Man that sound design is still pretty rough though

Considering you haven't played the game yet tone down the negative talk. No need for it.
 

Gbraga

Member
About a year ago some people on GAF were asking me to make a thread about this and I said I would, but I just haven't had any time (if I were to do it, I'd want to do it right, with visual examples). I still plan on doing it sometime after Cuphead is released and I'm not being smashed under crunch. But I'll give the briefest description here:
1) Marionetting - this is where animation is made out of single still frames that are cut up into pieces along the joints (elbows, shoulders, etc). Those still pictures (or "bones") are moved around by the engine. This gives a VERY "flash" look, as the character looks like a marionette that is being jangled around rather than being animated.

2) Morphmation - this is animation that is done by taking a still frame and then warping (stretching, expanding, shrinking) that image to infer motion. It is also usually done in engine, rather than frame by frame. This is often used for "breathing" animations on figures, as you can just expand and deflate the stomachs or squash and stretch the still frame without having to redraw it.

The above two styles are used often for a number of reasons:
1) It's cheaper because you only have to do a couple of drawings and then manipulate them in engine
2) It can operate at any framerate, because the animation is just moving still images around the screen
3)You can have extremely detailed art assets, because they only have to be drawn a couple of times.
4) Editing animations is very easy and doesn't require any re-drawing, so tweaking timings and motions is a breeze.
5) You can create tons of variation without having to draw a billion things. For a different sword, you just draw the sword once, then manipulate it in space, no need to draw every frame in the animation again.

Then, there's traditional animation. Which is literally just drawing every single frame of an animation. Classic animation stems from cinema, so the standard was in 24frame per second. Most American animation is done on 'twos', which means that there are 12 frames of animation per second (each frame is held for two visual beats). Most cheap Japanese animation is done on 'threes' (where every frame is held for three visual beats). There's variation, of course, as fast motion requires ones or twos, and very slow motion can be on threes or worse to save money/time.

But back in the 30s, animation all was done on 'ones'...which is literally drawing a new frame for every single visual beat. 24 full fat frames per second. So that's what we did and it goes a long way to why the game looks the way it does. It also means that it takes twice or three times as long as normal animation. We're over 50,000 frames at this point.



As noted above, we're on ones, so it's 24fps of unique animations. Though, if I'm being honest (and don't tell anyone), we've had to cheat for gameplay purposes on some animations...we occasionally run up to 40fps of unique animations to get the timings correct.

I don't know what Akira runs at, but Roger Rabbit is twos for the most part (12fps) with ones (24fps) for fast motions.

Thank you, I really appreciate it! I hope everything goes out wonderfully for you with Cuphead's launch, and you can write that thread happily and well rested. :p

I'm sure you heard that a million times before, but the work you've put into the game, it absolutely shows. As I said, I have no technical knowledge, but I can still appreciate high quality animation, and even without being able to tell for sure that it was 24fps animation work, it's obviously waaay ahead of, well, pretty much anything. You're doing justice to what I imagine when people bring up "2D HD", instead of what we actually get.

Just a quick question, if a game uses pixelart, are they forced to animate by hand? Because it's far more common for me to be pleased with the animation in 2D pixel-art games than 2D HD games. So I'm wondering why is that, or is it just cheaper to make good animation in pixel art, so they usually have an easier time achieving good results when they don't go for hand drawn 2D?
 

Teeth

Member
"Ones" means one different frame of animation for each frame on display right? So, since the game runs at 60fps it's not on ones anymore, unless it used 60 different frames of animation. At 24 it would be if it was a movie though. But correct me if i'm wrong since i'm not an animation expert.

Jargon like 'ones' and 'twos' is animator jargon, which has its roots in cinema, so it all stems back to that. So until framerates of movies change, 24fps is still going to be known as ones. Just because you watch an animated movie that was animated on twos, transferred to a TV screen (which updates at 60 or 120 or 240Hz) doesn't magically change the lingo.

Let's just say that animating on "ones" is more of a mindset than a technical requirement.



Are you sure about Roger Rabbit being on twos? I was sure it's on ones (24 frames) that's why the animated characters move so smoothly and don't stand out that much compare to the real actors on screen. It's also how Richard William animates in general, it's like his thing. Because of this he could never finish The Thief and the Cobbler properly.

Pretty dang sure it's on twos, with ones for fast motion. Edit, correction, Mousnis is correct, it's on ones.

Pretty much every animator I've come across learned off of his book, which explicitly breaks down where to save money and time on different animations. Art is a business and Williams knew it better than anyone.
41y%2BvpBqzJL._SX355_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg



TJust a quick question, if a game uses pixelart, are they forced to animate by hand? Because it's far more common for me to be pleased with the animation in 2D pixel-art games than 2D HD games. So I'm wondering why is that, or is it just cheaper to make good animation in pixel art, so they usually have an easier time achieving good results when they don't go for hand drawn 2D?

There's so much in these statements I don't know where to start.

1) Generally, the more detailed the art style, the more animation/smoother the animation has to be for it to look alright. Pixel art is very low fidelity, so you can get by with a 2 frame punch and no one bats an eye. If you have an HD image, it needs to "move" in high fidelity (smoothness) to look good. You can get around it by stylizing it (like KoF13) or reducing the colour depth...but well, HD art generally necessitates high fidelity animation. The human eye picks out errors when it sees clarity in some things but not others. It's the uncanny valley effect; if your art is an "insinuation" of a character, your brain fills in the gaps and makes it look good. If everything is detailed for your brain, every tiny little anomaly causes great distress.

2) "Pixel art" is a generalized term that usually refers to macroblock or low resolution art. Shovel Knight is pixel art, but so is Street Fighter 3, and when you get down to it, Cuphead is pixel art as well (rastered pixels).

3) Tons of pixel art uses marionetting. Look up videos of Earnest Evans for the Genesis/megadrive or even Vectorman.
 
i'm kinda disappointed to be hearing it's still largely a boss rush title? i though all this extra time was to make it more...traditional? platforming? levels? regular enemies?...like a 1940's style mario. i'll probably still pick it up though since it looks so nice.

Let the game be something unique instead of the zillionth 2D indie platformer with a pleasing aesthetic.
 

Zeta Oni

Member
Jargon like 'ones' and 'twos' is animator jargon, which has its roots in cinema, so it all stems back to that. So until framerates of movies change, 24fps is still going to be known as ones. Just because you watch an animated movie that was animated on twos, transferred to a TV screen (which updates at 60 or 120 or 240Hz) doesn't magically change the lingo.

Let's just say that animating on "ones" is more of a mindset than a technical requirement.





Pretty dang sure it's on twos, with ones for fast motion.

Pretty much every animator I've come across learned off of his book, which explicitly breaks down where to save money and time on different animations. Art is a business and Williams knew it better than anyone.
41y%2BvpBqzJL._SX355_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg





There's so much in these statements I don't know where to start.

1) Generally, the more detailed the art style, the more animation/smoother the animation has to be for it to look alright. Pixel art is very low fidelity, so you can get by with a 2 frame punch and no one bats an eye. If you have an HD image, it needs to "move" in high fidelity (smoothness) to look good. You can get around it by stylizing it (like KoF13) or reducing the colour depth...but well, HD art generally necessitates high fidelity animation. The human eye picks out errors when it sees clarity in some things but not others. It's the uncanny valley effect; if your art is an "insinuation" of a character, your brain fills in the gaps and makes it look good. If everything is detailed for your brain, every tiny little anomaly causes great distress.

2) "Pixel art" is a generalized term that usually refers to macroblock or low resolution art. Shovel Knight is pixel art, but so is Street Fighter 3, and when you get down to it, Cuphead is pixel art as well (rastered pixels).

3) Tons of pixel art uses marionetting. Look up videos of Earnest Evans for the Genesis/megadrive or even Vectorman.

About a year ago some people on GAF were asking me to make a thread about this and I said I would, but I just haven't had any time (if I were to do it, I'd want to do it right, with visual examples). I still plan on doing it sometime after Cuphead is released and I'm not being smashed under crunch. But I'll give the briefest description here:
1) Marionetting - this is where animation is made out of single still frames that are cut up into pieces along the joints (elbows, shoulders, etc). Those still pictures (or "bones") are moved around by the engine. This gives a VERY "flash" look, as the character looks like a marionette that is being jangled around rather than being animated.

2) Morphmation - this is animation that is done by taking a still frame and then warping (stretching, expanding, shrinking) that image to infer motion. It is also usually done in engine, rather than frame by frame. This is often used for "breathing" animations on figures, as you can just expand and deflate the stomachs or squash and stretch the still frame without having to redraw it.

The above two styles are used often for a number of reasons:
1) It's cheaper because you only have to do a couple of drawings and then manipulate them in engine
2) It can operate at any framerate, because the animation is just moving still images around the screen
3)You can have extremely detailed art assets, because they only have to be drawn a couple of times.
4) Editing animations is very easy and doesn't require any re-drawing, so tweaking timings and motions is a breeze.
5) You can create tons of variation without having to draw a billion things. For a different sword, you just draw the sword once, then manipulate it in space, no need to draw every frame in the animation again.

Then, there's traditional animation. Which is literally just drawing every single frame of an animation. Classic animation stems from cinema, so the standard was in 24frame per second. Most American animation is done on 'twos', which means that there are 12 frames of animation per second (each frame is held for two visual beats). Most cheap Japanese animation is done on 'threes' (where every frame is held for three visual beats). There's variation, of course, as fast motion requires ones or twos, and very slow motion can be on threes or worse to save money/time.

But back in the 30s, animation all was done on 'ones'...which is literally drawing a new frame for every single visual beat. 24 full fat frames per second. So that's what we did and it goes a long way to why the game looks the way it does. It also means that it takes twice or three times as long as normal animation. We're over 50,000 frames at this point.



As noted above, we're on ones, so it's 24fps of unique animations. Though, if I'm being honest (and don't tell anyone), we've had to cheat for gameplay purposes on some animations...we occasionally run up to 40fps of unique animations to get the timings correct.

I don't know what Akira runs at, but Roger Rabbit is twos for the most part (12fps) with ones (24fps) for fast motions.


As someone interested in getting into animation, I really enjoyed these posts and look forward to that thread, should it come.
 

jholmes

Member
But back in the 30s, animation all was done on 'ones'...which is literally drawing a new frame for every single visual beat. 24 full fat frames per second. So that's what we did and it goes a long way to why the game looks the way it does. It also means that it takes twice or three times as long as normal animation. We're over 50,000 frames at this point.



As noted above, we're on ones, so it's 24fps of unique animations. Though, if I'm being honest (and don't tell anyone), we've had to cheat for gameplay purposes on some animations...we occasionally run up to 40fps of unique animations to get the timings correct.

I don't know what Akira runs at, but Roger Rabbit is twos for the most part (12fps) with ones (24fps) for fast motions.

This talk about gameplay frames and animation frames seems similar to what HAL did in Kirby and the Rainbow Curse to get a claymation-style look. I know you didn't work on that game of course, but is the comparison fair?

Also I'm sure Cuphead will turn out a much better game than that was
 

mcmmaster

Member
That candy boss looks gorgeous, can't believe we're nearly there.

Getting this on PC, do we know if the game will scale well to monitors beyond 1080p?
 
Rayman Origins/Legends uses a combination of marionetting, morphmation, and traditional animation. The traditional animation runs wwaaaaaaaayyyyyyy below 60fps, but the morphmation and marionetting run at 60 (as that animation is tied to screen update).

They use the three different types very intelligently to lean away from that "flash" look that bothers a lot of people, but the majority of their animation is marionetting and morphmation.

Whatever they use i think it looks super ugly and flash-y and yours looks awesome. Well worth it.
 
I nearly bankrupted my parents playing metal slug in the arcade as a kid.

This game gives me those vibes. I woulda bought it for the art Style alone. More than happy to support these devs so I'll be there day 1 on Xbox.

And if they decide to do another one, I'll be there day 1 as well.
 

Shift!

Member
About a year ago some people on GAF were asking me to make a thread about this and I said I would, but I just haven't had any time (if I were to do it, I'd want to do it right, with visual examples). I still plan on doing it sometime after Cuphead is released and I'm not being smashed under crunch. But I'll give the briefest description here:
1) Marionetting - this is where animation is made out of single still frames that are cut up into pieces along the joints (elbows, shoulders, etc). Those still pictures (or "bones") are moved around by the engine. This gives a VERY "flash" look, as the character looks like a marionette that is being jangled around rather than being animated.

2) Morphmation - this is animation that is done by taking a still frame and then warping (stretching, expanding, shrinking) that image to infer motion. It is also usually done in engine, rather than frame by frame. This is often used for "breathing" animations on figures, as you can just expand and deflate the stomachs or squash and stretch the still frame without having to redraw it.

The above two styles are used often for a number of reasons:
1) It's cheaper because you only have to do a couple of drawings and then manipulate them in engine
2) It can operate at any framerate, because the animation is just moving still images around the screen
3)You can have extremely detailed art assets, because they only have to be drawn a couple of times.
4) Editing animations is very easy and doesn't require any re-drawing, so tweaking timings and motions is a breeze.
5) You can create tons of variation without having to draw a billion things. For a different sword, you just draw the sword once, then manipulate it in space, no need to draw every frame in the animation again.

Then, there's traditional animation. Which is literally just drawing every single frame of an animation. Classic animation stems from cinema, so the standard was in 24frame per second. Most American animation is done on 'twos', which means that there are 12 frames of animation per second (each frame is held for two visual beats). Most cheap Japanese animation is done on 'threes' (where every frame is held for three visual beats). There's variation, of course, as fast motion requires ones or twos, and very slow motion can be on threes or worse to save money/time.

But back in the 30s, animation all was done on 'ones'...which is literally drawing a new frame for every single visual beat. 24 full fat frames per second. So that's what we did and it goes a long way to why the game looks the way it does. It also means that it takes twice or three times as long as normal animation. We're over 50,000 frames at this point.



As noted above, we're on ones, so it's 24fps of unique animations. Though, if I'm being honest (and don't tell anyone), we've had to cheat for gameplay purposes on some animations...we occasionally run up to 40fps of unique animations to get the timings correct.

I don't know what Akira runs at, but Roger Rabbit is twos for the most part (12fps) with ones (24fps) for fast motions.

That's miraculous, but how the hell did anyone get away with morphimation in a video game? Are the techniques used on the same models simultaneously or do you just split them up between different jobs?
 

Theorry

Member
I nearly bankrupted my parents playing metal slug in the arcade as a kid.

This game gives me those vibes. I woulda bought it for the art Style alone. More than happy to support these devs so I'll be there day 1 on Xbox.

And if they decide to do another one, I'll be there day 1 as well.

20 bucks is a great price also imo.
 

Teeth

Member
Are you sure about Roger Rabbit being on twos? I was sure it's on ones (24 frames) that's why the animated characters move so smoothly and don't stand out that much compare to the real actors on screen. It's also how Richard William animates in general, it's like his thing. Because of this he could never finish The Thief and the Cobbler properly.

I just want to come back to this and apologize for my mistake before, you are correct that Roger Rabbit is on ones.

I got SCHOOLED by one of the senior animators after he read my comment. My bad! You are correct, it's on ones.
 
Just take one look at Cuphead's gorgeous hand-drawn art style and you'll understand the hype. First-time indie developer Studio MDHR created a game that's as detailed and fluid as classic Disney cartoons. And it has that hint of magic that you can only get from traditional, non-CG animation. It's also a dream to play, with controls reminiscent of Contra and other extremely difficult 2D side scrollers. Simply running around and shooting enemies feels great -- and that's a good thing, since you'll be doing a lot of it...

except it's not really disney cartoons the game's styled on - it's max fleischer cartoons: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Fleischer
 
Day one, wondering which platform. Xbox would be more hassle free, Stream would be forever mine. Although my TV input lag is way more profound than on my monitor, so maybe Steam is the smarter way to go for this game.
The Xbox version would be forever yours too. Eternal BC is pretty much their commitment right now. Plus the game is play anywhere so you get to play on pc as well and decide which one plays best.
 
4th attempt? Better jump on this enemy again even though it has hurt me every time I've tried it.

There was something poetic about him getting hurt by the very first enemy he encountered too.
 
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