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[Yui's Empire]

There are concepts like perseverance and honesty. If the game is difficult but your job is to make an impression of the game, you try harder and retry and retry until you get it. If you simply can't on such a short notice, especially when nobody besides you had such difficulties, you admit that you just aren't good at this kind of things instead of blaming the game. I suck at fighting games but I don't blame the genre.

My girlfriend used to game sporadically a while ago, but lately she didn't have the time or money to truly invest in that. She was always on PC too so she practically never touched a controller before. I've made her play Ori, which a lot of people consider difficult - so do I. She died a lot, probably close to a thousand times. Simple actions with the controller resulted in troubles as she was not used to the One's controller - or any controller. But she made it, finishing the game 100%. She could have done like this guy, failing a jump 3 times and go "okay this game sucks ass". But apparently someone who's barely even a gamer would be a better journalist than an industry veteran.

 

[Osahi]

There are concepts like perseverance and honesty. If the game is difficult but your job is to make an impression of the game, you try harder and retry and retry until you get it. If you simply can't on such a short notice, especially when nobody besides you had such difficulties, you admit that you just aren't good at this kind of things instead of blaming the game. I suck at fighting games but I don't blame the genre.

My girlfriend used to game sporadically a while ago, but lately she didn't have the time or money to truly invest in that. She was always on PC too so she practically never touched a controller before. I've made her play Ori, which a lot of people consider difficult - so do I. She died a lot, probably close to a thousand times. Simple actions with the controller resulted in troubles as she was not used to the One's controller - or any controller. But she made it, finishing the game 100%. She could have done like this guy, failing a jump 3 times and go "okay this game sucks ass". But apparently someone who's barely even a gamer would be a better journalist than an industry veteran.

Where did he say this games sucks ass? Have you read his article about it? He actually acknowlidge he sucks at it. He has only pointed out the tutorial isn't very clear. Which, to be frank, many people might agree with (there is a thread about it on Twitter, I'm on mobile so hard to look it up for you)

That's why I was a little hesitant in what I said. It really felt like the guy rushed into the game and just wasn't thinking. A lot of games are set up to cater for that and will let you coast through, allowing you to pick up the reigns if you lock in. This looks like it doesn't let you do that and absolutely needs you to 100% grasp the rules and mechanics from the get go. As such, he delivered a poor demo, which it was.

Yup, pretty much. I've only been granted 15 minutes with it, and this game needs you to absolutely focus (which is harder on an event or show). It's a hard game to demo I guess. It looks like it's pick up and play, but it asks determination and practice which you often don't have the time for while demoing. Apart from that stupid instance where he doesn't get the jump and dash thing, you see him struggle in the first level becaue it seems he doesn't grasp the mechanics just yet and is figuring things out (He thinks he can kill enemies by jumping on them for instance). I mean, it took me quite some restarts before I even remembered the jump and dash thing to get passed enemies in the level I played.

 

[Lord British]

I think that's a legit terrible tutorial.

Agree.

If a non-gamer can't grasp basic moves from your tutorial, change your tutorial.

 

[1upsuper]

Agree.

If a non-gamer can't grasp basic moves from your tutorial, change your tutorial.

Not every game is made for everyone. Having a tutorial doesn't mean your game is going to be completely accessible nor that it's trying to be -- tutorials teach the ideal audience how to play the game, or at least get them in the right mode of thinking. It may be someone's intent to make a game reach as wide an audience as possible. That could even be Cuphead's intent. But not doing so is not necessarily a failure on the part of the game or the developers. I don't think we can argue that the tutorial here is overly obtuse for an audience familiar with 2D games. It may require some intuition and trial and error -- as it happens, those are both skills integral to mastering brutal shmups and run-'n-guns.

 

[Lord British]

Not every game is made for everyone. Having a tutorial doesn't mean your game is going to be completely accessible nor that it's trying to be -- tutorials teach the ideal audience how to play the game, or at least get them in the right mode of thinking. It may be someone's intent to make a game reach as wide an audience as possible. That could even be Cuphead's intent. But not doing so is not necessarily a failure on the part of the game or the developers. I don't think we can argue that the tutorial here is overly obtuse for an audience familiar with 2D games. It may require some intuition and trial and error -- as it happens, those are both skills integral to mastering brutal shmups and run-'n-guns.

No argument from me, broadly speaking - and incidentally, I'm not defending the ridiculous performance in the video! - but I think with Cuphead specifically (looking the way it does), there's a disconnect between the extremely appealing, friendly graphics and the apparently brutal difficulty.

There's an easy mode, right? I'm sure I read that.

 

[1upsuper]

No argument from me, broadly speaking - and incidentally, I'm not defending the ridiculous performance in the video! - but I think with Cuphead specifically (looking the way it does), there's a disconnect between the extremely appealing, friendly graphics and the apparently brutal difficulty.

There's an easy mode, right? I'm sure I read that.

With a username based on the P2 Gradius ship, you're probably already familiar with deceptive appearances with Parodius.

 

[Plasma]

Not sure if someone saw this, but.
Gameplay from Dean Takahashi of GamesBeat, it seems. Yes, video game journalist.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=848Y1Uu5Htk&t

2/10 stupid game

Don't quit your day job - oh wait.

 

[Lord British]

With a username based on the P2 Gradius ship, you're probably already familiar with deceptive appearances with Parodius.

Truth

And you're like the first person on here to not assume I'm a fan of Ultima, or Richard Garriott himself!

 

[1upsuper]

Truth

And you're like the first person on here to not assume I'm a fan of Ultima, or Richard Garriott himself!

Ha. Ultima would have been my first thought, but your avatar gives it away.

 

[Blindy]

Rocket League's tutorial doesn't go into full detail on the advanced flying mechanics that doesn't make the game any worse.....sometimes there's concepts you pick up on through trial and error and using your noggin in accomplishing something.

To make a jump towards a platform that's higher than you, you need elevation from where you are jumping off of. That's not anything a game should be teaching you, science from grade school would have taught you that or heck even playing on the playground would teach you that. To be dumbfounded that a game did not explain this to you rather than laugh it off seems very defensive, regardless of how many years of experience someone has in the gaming industry or not. You learn something like that as a toddler.

If this was a puzzle game or something, I totally get it if your stumped on something. Happens to just about everyone. But cmon, not something like that.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

No argument from me, broadly speaking - and incidentally, I'm not defending the ridiculous performance in the video! - but I think with Cuphead specifically (looking the way it does), there's a disconnect between the extremely appealing, friendly graphics and the apparently brutal difficulty.

There's an easy mode, right? I'm sure I read that.

Is it a disconnect, or tradition?

 

[TheRazielim]

This was a simple reasoning test, not even related to gaming, and he failed. What a joke.

I bet a monkey would figure it out faster.

Also wasn't he the tool who complained about Mass Effect and apparently didn't even invest any skill points half-way into the game?

 

[dark10x]

One thing that annoys me about that Cuphead tutorial is the text itself. If you actually read what's written, large chunks of it read like nonsense. I mean, "Parry to nullify"? This seems like a concept better explained contextually. Hitting little switches in a tutorial tells me nothing about how this will be used in the game.

I'm not a fan of tutorials but I absolutely understand the need for them in some games. For a simple 2D shooter like this, though? I feel that it's a miss. This is a well worn genre that shouldn't require a dedicated tutorial (especially when this one lacks enemies). If you're doing something truly unique, like Super Time Force, then I get it...but Cuphead is not a complex game.

For me, it just raises another flag. What I've played of the game prior suggests that it lacks proper feedback and hit effects. The game actions feel limp. I think I've made this comparison before but it's more Alien Hominid than Contra, Metal Slug or Gunstar Heroes.

I really hope they pull if off, though. I get the feeling these guys were taken by surprise. It feels as if the gorgeous art style was crafted first and foremost before jumping into the actual game design. The fact that it was transformed from a boss rush game to something more substantial supports this, I think. I hope they blow us all away upon release, though.

 

[Boss Doggie]

Agree.

If a non-gamer can't grasp basic moves from your tutorial, change your tutorial.

Again, as people pointed out, it's not even about skills of being a gamer, but general problem solving skills.

 

[Lord British]

I don't entirely believe that's the case. I'm not interested in arguing the toss about it (I think both sides in this instance have well-considered perspectives), but I feel like videogames are almost totally abstract to the non-gamer - the controller is a baffling ordeal, and what's utterly obvious to the gamer is nothing but random noises - the "jump" button for example, what in the world!?

But this is getting super in-depth in a way that isn't necessary! I'm just rambling so I'll shut up and bow out instead.

Ha. Ultima would have been my first thought, but your avatar gives it away.

I don't even remember what my avatar is as I have them switched off. I thought it was from Castle of Illusion, but I guess I have the Vulcan Venture one back!

 

[Wolfgunblood Garopa]

I think that's a legit terrible tutorial.

Close Cuphead, make snack, insert Simpsons Season 3 DVD, press play

 

[BTA]

Just saw this shitstorm pass by on Twitter, and people are really hyperboling again imo. Okay, the guy sucks at this game and his problem solving skills are lacking. But to immediatly crucify the guy (and for some to an extent generalise this to the whole of games journalism) is just silly.

First and foremost. This guy is not reviewing this game. He's playing it on Gamescom in a hands-on. I'm pretty confident his editors won't send him the review copy after this. I am not familiar with the guy (who, I've read, mostly writes about the business side of gaming?), but maybe he is just more versed in other games? I have previewed stuff like Project Cars 2, while I suck at racing sims. But you know, when you're at a developpers or on an event, there are much more ways to research your text then just playtime.

Secondly. Playing something at Gamescom or E3 is quite differently then playing at home. This is probably recorderd in the business area, so the circumstances will have been better than on the floor (where you can barely hear the sound of the game, people are constantly passing by, etc), but it can still be a distracting experience. I've noticed I always play worse on events than in the comfort of home. You might be standing up while playing, taking notes, or there could be a developper next to you constantly talking so your mind is on two things at the same time. Again, I don't know the circumstances of this gameplay, but it is also something I take into account.

Thirdly: this video is played of for laughs by the guy himself. The titel has shameful in it. He admits sucking at the game, which in my experience IS very hard. (I've seen many struggle with it, and that's okay. It's designed to be challenging)

I don't believe you have to be a master in games to be able to (p)review them. Even if you suck at a particular game, you can still give it your time and patience to get to know it's mechanics and write your thoughts about it. I do believe you best limit yourself to reviewing games in genres you are invested in (don't ask me to write a RTS review for instance). But again, this guy wasn't even reviewing this thing.

The second point is important here. If you're recording it it's probably reasonable to expect some amount of focus, but conventions are really distracting. Even when I've played things I was interested in at PAX it can be hard to focus on the basics if there's a big loud crowd moving around you.

Beyond that, I do think it'd be better to have an arrow showing the actual jump up and the dash over (so to the left of where it currently is) rather than just having the dash arrow being mostly directly above the pillar. It's the first thing you can see in the game and I'm sure there are plenty of people who will be interested in the art style who have not played games like this (or even many games at all) before, so spelling things out like that makes sense to me.

 

[Boss Doggie]

I don't entirely believe that's the case. I'm not interested in arguing the toss about it (I think both sides in this instance have well-considered perspectives), but I feel like videogames are almost totally abstract to the non-gamer - the controller is a baffling ordeal, and what's utterly obvious to the gamer is nothing but random noises - the "jump" button for example, what in the world!?

is it really even abstract though? animals managed to solve problems using the tools given to them in a set up but somehow a person just insists on doing the same thing over and over without stopping and thinking the surroundings? We've seen people who aren't into games able to digest and show the tutorial's scenario.

you can even change the set up to say, an algebraic equation - find the value of x in 3 = 1 + x and he'd insist it's 4 despite being wrong, all while ignoring the given values in the problem

as I said, it's less about video games and more about cognitive problem solving

 

[GHG]

is it really even abstract though? animals managed to solve problems using the tools given to them in a set up but somehow a person just insists on doing the same thing over and over without stopping and thinking the surroundings? We've seen people who aren't into games able to digest and show the tutorial's scenario.

you can even change the set up to say, an algebraic equation - find the value of x in 3 = 1 + x and he'd insist it's 4 despite being wrong, all while ignoring the given values in the problem

as I said, it's less about video games and more about cognitive problem solving

While I completely agree with everything you're saying I also think the problem we are seeing in this video is also largely down to modern AAA game design.

People who frequently play these games are used to being able to "switch off their brain" while directed and having their hand held throughout the whole experience. So much so that when a game comes along and doesn't do so exactly by the book and they are left to think for themselves just a little bit... they get lost. People are far too used to following markers telling them where to go/be, tooltips telling them what to do/press at any given moment, especially so in tutorial areas.

So here we have an example of a tutorial where the game didn't say "stand right here in this exact spot and do exactly this with this timing" and we have the result of a guy running in circles because the game has deviated ever so slightly from the modern AAA conventions that he has become oh so accustomed to.

So yeh, there's no problem with the tutorial itself IMO, and there is the potential that if taken out of this situation the guys problem solving skills are probably fine, but when you look at how most AAA games handle their game design (and tutorials in particular) you can begin to understand how this problem has come about.

 

[Atuin]

It's basically rocket science, who would ever think that jumping from a higher position would make your jump reach higher

it's the dark souls of tutorial

You'd have to be some sort of brain surgeon or a pigeon to figure out such a devious puzzle.

 

[Boss Doggie]

While I completely agree with everything you're saying I also think the problem we are seeing in this video is also largely down to modern AAA game design.

People who frequently play these games are used to being able to "switch off their brain" while directed and having their hand held throughout the whole experience. So much so that when a game comes along and doesn't do so exactly by the book and they are left to think for themselves just a little bit... they get lost. People are far too used to following markers telling them where to go/be, tooltips telling them what to do/press at any given moment, especially so in tutorial areas.

So here we have an example of a tutorial where the game didn't say "stand right here in this exact spot and do exactly this with this timing" and we have the result of a guy running in circles because the game has deviated ever so slightly from the modern AAA conventions that he has become oh so accustomed to.

So yeh, there's no problem with the tutorial itself IMO, and there is the potential that if taken out of this situation the guys problem solving skills are probably fine, but when you look at how most AAA games handle their game design (and tutorials in particular) you can begin to understand how this problem has come about.

reminds me about that dev commentary in HL (or was it HL2?) about a player returning to a deadend repeatedly

 

[Magic Mushroom]

I really hope they pull if off, though. I get the feeling these guys were taken by surprise. It feels as if the gorgeous art style was crafted first and foremost before jumping into the actual game design. The fact that it was transformed from a boss rush game to something more substantial supports this, I think. I hope they blow us all away upon release, though.

It's still very much a boss rush game. According to Maja Moldenhauer there are about thirty bosses and six side scrolling stages. I personally loved what I've played and I think they know very well what they're doing from a gameplay perspective. I love how the parry everything that is pink mechanic is implemented in the boss fights.

 

[Spasm]

I hope, on launch night, someone has a stream of a pigeon playing the game.

 

[dark10x]

It's still very much a boss rush game. According to Maja Moldenhauer there are about thirty bosses and six side scrolling stages. I personally loved what I've played and I think they know very well what they're doing from a gameplay perspective. I love how the parry everything that is pink mechanic is implemented in the boss fights.

That's good and bad news.

Honestly, I'm not really into boss rush style games and was hoping for a greater focus on run and gun levels with bosses integrated into the stages (a la Contra: The Hard Corps).

Still very eager to try it again!

 

[FiveSide]

Can't wait to play this! The aesthetic is groovy as hell, I can't believe this is the first game to embrace this visual style. Looks like it has the gameplay to back it up too.

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet (didn't see it anywhere on the first few pages) but this will be available on GOG as well.

 

[Kamek Koopa]

It's still very much a boss rush game. According to Maja Moldenhauer there are about thirty bosses and six side scrolling stages. I personally loved what I've played and I think they know very well what they're doing from a gameplay perspective. I love how the parry everything that is pink mechanic is implemented in the boss fights.

It's good to hear that there is a bigger focus on the boss battles, which are honestly where this game is going to really stand out.

However, I doubt that there are only six side scrolling stages. Just in the first world there are two or three, and I'm sure that there are more than two worlds.

 

[Head.spawn]

Its actually not, That part that people are discussing is making you follow a directive and think creatively at the same time, that leads to confusion

I feel like if you've played any platformer in the past 30+ years; every platformer has the big platform you can't quite jump over unless you leap from a close smaller platform. If you've played Super Mario Bros for more than a minute, you do this over and over. Air-Dash has been in tons of games, it's a pretty familiar mechanic that lets you clear wide gaps and thats in everything from 2D platformers to 3D AAA FPS games (MegaMan X, DMC, Halo 5, Overwatch, Stryder etc etc).

Even if you're seeing it for the first time, the thought process is:

0) **Game teaches you air dodge mechanic right after you jump over a small platform**
1) Let me jump over this big platform... try once or twice, can't do it.
2) There's a smaller platform that I just jumped over, if I stand on it maybe I can clear the bigger platform from that vantage point... try once, can't do it.
3) **Light bulb goes off** I was close jumping from the smaller platform, that air dodge will help me clear it.

I'd imagine the majority of people that are familiar with platformers before; they'll get to this section, mess around with the controls for a second and then proceed to clear the tutorial in one-shot.

 

[Kain-Nosgoth]

Speaking of it,i saw this on twitter:

https://webmshare.com/5xa8L

Saw it earlier

this is amazing... wonder how he would react if he saw this

 

[silva1991]

Saw it earlier

Oh God, keep this man away from reviewing my most anticipated games.

 

[m23]

I'm sure it's been answered already but, are there any enhancements for the xbx version? Will this be in 4k?

 

[ASilentProtagonist]

Saw it earlier

This was a simple reasoning test, not even related to gaming, and he failed. What a joke.
I bet a monkey would figure it out faster.

God damn hahaha

 

[gweemz]

I can't wait to have my gf try the tutorial to compare to Dean. She never plays games but I think she will figure it out faster.

 

[dan2026]

The video was an absolute embarrassment.
It makes it look like the guy had never played a video game in his life.

I would give him the benefit of the doubt, but the co-optional podcast found this dude gave mass effect a bad review score because he played through the whole game without realising he could use upgrades.

This guy should probably be kept away from video games for his own safety.

 

[EmiPrime]

For me, it just raises another flag. What I've played of the game prior suggests that it lacks proper feedback and hit effects. The game actions feel limp. I think I've made this comparison before but it's more Alien Hominid than Contra, Metal Slug or Gunstar Heroes.

Ah balls, that was one of my fears.

I still hope that I will enjoy it but my heart kind of sank when I saw that they had put in an over-world map and that scrolling stages are a separate thing without bosses. Like why do that? Why aren't there mid-bosses and end bosses in these stages? When people asked for some scrolling stages with trash enemies to break up the boss action I don't think anyone wanted them to be islanded off from the bosses.

 

[PSlayer]

While I completely agree with everything you're saying I also think the problem we are seeing in this video is also largely down to modern AAA game design.

People who frequently play these games are used to being able to "switch off their brain" while directed and having their hand held throughout the whole experience. So much so that when a game comes along and doesn't do so exactly by the book and they are left to think for themselves just a little bit... they get lost. People are far too used to following markers telling them where to go/be, tooltips telling them what to do/press at any given moment, especially so in tutorial areas.

So here we have an example of a tutorial where the game didn't say "stand right here in this exact spot and do exactly this with this timing" and we have the result of a guy running in circles because the game has deviated ever so slightly from the modern AAA conventions that he has become oh so accustomed to.

So yeh, there's no problem with the tutorial itself IMO, and there is the potential that if taken out of this situation the guys problem solving skills are probably fine, but when you look at how most AAA games handle their game design (and tutorials in particular) you can begin to understand how this problem has come about.

I have to agree with you on this.

A good example of this is dark souls: Besides some difficult spikes here and there,most of what dark souls do is punishing you for playing dumb and not think before acting. The game even allow you to over level yourself and over level your weapons in case you're stuck in some boss,even if you die you don't lose items and progressions, which is far more than you can say from similar games like Dragon age origins or Dragon's Dogma.