Game dev is weird, I've heard the phrase 90% of the work in 10% of the time. Basically meaning that it all comes together at the end of the project.
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Forza 5 will require a day 1 free DLC download
- Thread starter Megasoum
- Start date
Game dev is weird, I've heard the phrase 90% of the work in 10% of the time. Basically meaning that it all comes together at the end of the project.
FamousLastX
Member
Since Microsoft has said they planned on having a day one patch even before this whole 180 they pulled which requires rewriting a somewhat significant part of the OS, I really, really doubt the update will be that small. I'd estimate at least at least few hundred megs. I mean, even the Wii U which has a seemingly more basic OS had a day one patch that was around 1GB or so if I remember? All that being said, I don't think that having to connect once for a day one OS update is a huge deal. I understand that it's obviously an inconvience, because most people want to just pull out their brand new system and play, but I think those fussing over lack of broadband connections or those stuck with bandwidth limits can likely find someway to update the system and this game, even if it requires going to a friend or relatives house and downloading it there first. Still a hassle yes, but if you want the system bad enough and aren't just complaining for the sake of being anti-Microsoft you'll find a way. Now by no means do I agree with the decisions they've made, but at this point a day one patch really is the only way to go about changing the OS that drastically at this point, and that likely has hurt developers as well by having to change significant portions of the way their game functions.
That being said, the way I read the latest article unless the statements have been clarified again, is that you can't even finish the career mode without downloading this update? That is something that I can't exactly support and I really hope that is limited to this or at the very least just a small handful of launch titles. I also don't see how they can certify a game where the single player isn't technically completable by a consumer unless they connect their console and download an update. That is just flat out approving and shipping an unfinished product no matter how much some of you want to defend it and argue to the contrary. Forza has a significant offline portion, and it's really not unreasonable for a consumer to expect at the very least a finished product if they go to the store and purchase the game on the disk. I mean, how much are we going to let our standards truly drop.
I realize that my first two paragraphs somewhat contridict one another, but my explanation for the first paragraph is more directed to what day one consumers of both the console and this game are almost certainly capable of doing. That doesn't make it right and is not ideal. And also once we move on those day one Forza purchases, that's where the second paragraph point of view better comes into play. Now let's say that they don't have a reliable broadband connection or bandwidth limits. They've already went out of their way to bring their brand new console to someone elses place just to get it set up. Then a month down the line or so, they decide to go ahead and pick up Forza 5, and now find that they will have to yet again take their entire console to someone else's house to download this update if they wish to be able to complete the offline portion of the game, then this quickly starts to become an enormous hassle for them, especially IF (emphasis on IF as I don't wish to speculate) there are other titles that require this type of download in order to make finishing the game possible. Just seems like a bit of a hassle. And those pointing to the multi disc Forza games, there are of course differences. One being that you can enjoy the whole game directly out of the box without net and simply install the second disc with no internet required. Also, just how required were these second disks such as in the case of Forza 4? Were you able to finish the entire game without installing the second disk if you didn't want to, either due to a lack of available storage space or just those who were too impatient to install disc 2? Honest question, as I installed the second disc before I did any races in the core game so I'm not positive?
If I did misread the updated IGN article, then please feel free to correct me, as I'd like to make sure that I do in fact have this newest information accurate. It's late and my daily ER meds have worn off so there is a very good probability that I missed something, in which case I do apologize.
Thanks for stating the obvious.
I think the percentage of gamers without Internet access that will be purchasing a next gen console is pretty small. Extremely small.
And I don't want my hobby being held back by accommodating that minuscule percentage.
Actually, this is not strictly related to game development, but rather a general software development rule: you spend 10% of time doing 90% of your project, and remaining 10% will take up the other 90% of time.
Cizeta-Moroder
Banned
What? Providing independent hardware and complete games would be "holding back your hobby"?Thanks for stating the obvious.
I think the percentage of gamers without Internet access that will be purchasing a next gen console is pretty small. Extremely small.
And I don't want my hobby being held back by accommodating that minuscule percentage.
It's the other way around, decent people's hobby is being held back by bullshit policies and development
you remember when you where a student and had final exams, and how you wished you had just one more day to prepare?
when launching day1, its like that but X100
and its more of what can be completed, than what can be made in that month.
yeah and I remember MANY of my friends failed the exams even though they had ALOT of extra time to prepare..
Looking at the big picture, a small part of the price we pay for DRM removal - and all the trading/renting/borrowing goodness that removal allows - is that a AAA launch game dev suddenly has to get creative in order to provide all of the games content on time...by requiring a process that has already been established as a one-time requirement to play the damn thing anyway.
So if I understand this correctly, this is about the good of a few idiots who bought a $500 machine without the ability to use it...vs the good of the thousands of day 1'ers with intranets access and a copy of Forza. Sorry, the former can eat shit and die, IMO.
So if I understand this correctly, this is about the good of a few idiots who bought a $500 machine without the ability to use it...vs the good of the thousands of day 1'ers with intranets access and a copy of Forza. Sorry, the former can eat shit and die, IMO.
jockstrap74
Neo Member
Anyone know if its an exclusive "first time" download to that copy of the game? And of course depending on how big the download is it will eat into hard drive space Day 1
Thinking about it isnt this what Microsoft want all along the disc is just the "carrier" for verification you bought the title?????
Thinking about it isnt this what Microsoft want all along the disc is just the "carrier" for verification you bought the title?????
its not a one time thing. you give your copy of the game to me, i put the disc in my console, I connect with my account, i download everything just like you did.
Mistwalker
Member
Yes, "the price WE pay" for Microsoft's ridiculous DRM schemes and subsequent 180. I know Microsoft is forcing the extra costs of every one of its decisions on us, but to see consumers falling in line so easily...dear lord.
The remains of one BS policy being used in defense of another. Really tired of people using the "it needs to go online anyway" as if the internet access is the crux of most complaints to begin with. You do understand that it's not, don't you?
You don't understand this correctly. Bit ironic considering your tone.
While there a likely far more people out there with spotty net access OR bandwidth caps OR slower speeds OR a combination than you are imagining, pay attention to this thread and others. This is about the principle of selling physical media that was reported not to function despite (ostensibly) having offline modes, and Microsoft assuring users they would NOT need to go online to play physical copies of their games. Of course it's not the end of the world, but every time a precedent like this is set, it ends up bad for consumers. I understand this being a launch window it might be an isolated case, but Microsoft has long lost any benefit of the doubt, and your attitude is frankly
Yeah. Amazed how many Xbone buyers are pretty content to not give a shit about anyone else so long as THEY are not affected. Hope it all works out well for you!
Opus Angelorum
Member
It's frustrating that some people will have problems, no doubt.
Will I be concerned that other people cannot play Forza 5 because they don't have internet? No.
Have they said exactly *how* big the download is? If it's ~2GB or less, fine. If this thing ends up being 5+ GB, yea, that's a bit of a problem. Didn't see the answer in the OP so sorry if this has been answered already!
Regardless, this sort of thing annoys me. I'm probably not going to buy an Xbox One at all (and I've got over 100k gamerscore on 360, and bought both previous Xbox consoles at launch, so I'm the definition of "fanboy" to the brand) because of so many things...I kinda think depending on the download size this is a non-issue. But it is kinda crazy to require it. It's one thing to need to download files from a disc to the HDD for all the content...which isn't even required. It's another to force me to waste bandwidth to make something merely playable. I understand how long it takes to go through certification, and I also understand how this may or may not be the only way to get as much content to the gamer on launch as is possible. But I've also always felt that it isn't the consumer's responsibility to be sympathetic to the plights of design, that something should just work, no questions asked...you can't sit there and expect everyone to be on GAF reading up on these things, or to be willing to jump through hoops.
Regardless, this sort of thing annoys me. I'm probably not going to buy an Xbox One at all (and I've got over 100k gamerscore on 360, and bought both previous Xbox consoles at launch, so I'm the definition of "fanboy" to the brand) because of so many things...I kinda think depending on the download size this is a non-issue. But it is kinda crazy to require it. It's one thing to need to download files from a disc to the HDD for all the content...which isn't even required. It's another to force me to waste bandwidth to make something merely playable. I understand how long it takes to go through certification, and I also understand how this may or may not be the only way to get as much content to the gamer on launch as is possible. But I've also always felt that it isn't the consumer's responsibility to be sympathetic to the plights of design, that something should just work, no questions asked...you can't sit there and expect everyone to be on GAF reading up on these things, or to be willing to jump through hoops.
Mistwalker
Member
I think that's a completely reasonable attitude to have.
What I don't understand are the people with active disdain for the folks who are affected.
A lot of details still need clarification, but the last update seems to indicate you can play the game offline, but career mode will not be completable until you download the extra content.
Well, if you think some more about it, you won't be that amazed: in the end, there are only 2 categories of people that are willing to buy Xbone day 1.
First is the MS fanboys. From a gamer POV there's really NO reason to buy it day 1, as many objective arguments very well pointed out either in many threads on this very forum or on gaming magazines such as Edge: this kind of people is so loyal to the corporation/brand, that they're blind/deaf when it comes to any contradiction, as per fanboy definition.
The other is scalpers, but I don't think they're really interested in gaming, and they surely don't discuss gaming on forums anyways.
Either case, you see you're wasting your virtual breath here.
Jawabreaker
Banned
I find it funny that the Gaf in general is so scared...so hesitant to join the future. The moment that any gaming company says a single word about anything even remotely different than the established trend set by the Atari 2600 of a box that plays physical game media(be it a cart or disc), 99% of this place just FREAKS THE FUCK OUT!!!!! Well, whether you guys like it or not, always on, cloud computing, and digital distribution *are* the future of gaming, regardless of how much you try to resist it. The future is a wonderful place, not a scary one, as your xenophobic minds have tried to convince you it is! STFU and let the future happen!
Hmm kind of on the fence about this. Once people start accepting incomplete work, the slope can become so slippery.
Jawabreaker
Banned
Thank you for being a perfect example of exactly what I was just referring to! It's always nice when someone can help me make my point!
Opus Angelorum
Member
Possible because some of those affected seem to be suggesting that we all should be concerned, whether it affects us or not.
So that guy from IGN, who had several posts in here about this article, rather than use them to clarify the issues many people were talking about, preferred to engage in an idiotic and childish argument with another poster. He practically allowed the highly inaccurate, heavily edited news to spread for the sake of it? What a fucking scummy move, no wonder games 'journalists' get such a bad name these days.
Look, I'm not that old, but in 2013 I'm still buying *brand new* vinyls and enjoy listening them in full analog fidelity on my 20+ years old hi-fi. I have never ever bought a single mp3 from any online service (though I rarely make some mp3 from my cds for convenience) and never would I exchange any vinyl from my collection over digital crap.
So if you like your digital vaporware collection, enjoy it, but please don't tell me to join you in your flawed future vision, because physical disks can and will be here for a very long time, even when eventually they'll become pricier than digital and collected by a minority, just like vinyls now.
Opus Angelorum
Member
I just noticed the update.
/thread
/thread
well, if your idea of a wonderful gaming future is being tied to a monopoly of digital control,
and by the hand of the biggest monopolistic tech company never the less, then be my guest and jump into THAT "wonderful" future.
for the rest of us, you know, the ones with one foot on the ground, its not so "wonderful" future for games...
Neuromancer
Member
Not really. I'm not happy with the idea of half a game being on disc, the other half requiring a download. I think it's sloppy game development.
Humorously enough, this is also MS's opinion of anyone without an excellent, unlimited broadband connection. We've already seen, indirectly, how well that's worked out for them.
Opus Angelorum
Member
Would you rather they charged for it? There are other developers who simply would have labelled this as DLC.
And I think it's a 'launch game issue' rather than sloppy development.
Neuromancer
Member
I'd rather the game be complete and on disc. If I was paying $60 for it, I don't think that's unreasonable to ask.
You're right about it being a rushed launch game though. The people at Turn 10 are doing the best they can I'm sure.
BruiserBear
Banned
What update?
Opus Angelorum
Member
Given the choice everyone would!
They either release as they are and offer the update for free, or they delay the game to Q1.
If you are eager to play Forza 5, I think the choice (giving aforementioned situation) is easy.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=71438686&postcount=1127
You really don't think dedicated servers are a big deal? As a gamer lag is terrible and for that reason alone I'm getting games like cod on Xbox
wtf, so far, xb1 has much better games then ps4 as far as exclusives go.
Ravensmash
Member
But looking at it from that perspective, is this actually any worse than what 3 and 4 did with content that had to be installed from the disc? What did those people without hard drives do?
it's not ideal, but considering how widespread internet access has become it's actually better than requiring someone to buy a storage device l like some titles last gen.
really its a non-issue, if you are even a bit reasonable.
and for people that dont really care for forza, dont really care to have it day 1,
I am sure that the next set of discs they print, will have the entire set of cars and tracks inside, since they will have completed them.
That's dumb. No other way to put it. First of all, when there are 78 million consoles sold and only about 2/3 of those consoles have connected to the Internet that's over 10 million people for one reason or another.
Second, it's incredibly ignorant of you to assume that everywhere has not only reliable Internet but isn't hamstrung by bandwidth caps which are a common and very real thing.
Third, GAF is not the world. It's a small portion of people that play video games and even smaller of people who follow the video game industry.
Fourth, everyone, EVERYONE should be able to enjoy video games.
Ravensmash
Member
While I can't disagree with your latter points, using the number of connected consoles this gen to counter this is disingenuous.
There could be numerous reasons why a consumer chose not to bother with connecting their system, and lack of ability shouldn't be heralded as the definitive factor. Anecdotally, I've known of people who just didn't see the need or desire while still having an internet connection available.
ZERO concessions to the overwhelming majority of the people on the planet? I guess that's one way of doing business.....
Ravensmash
Member
Again, if you look at it like that - the overwhelming majority of people on the planet aren't going to be interested in a £400 video game console.
These devices are luxury products at launch anyway.
Hazelhurst
Member
Those on nuclear subs.
Wait, dedicated servers are an Xbone exclusive now?
Read again what I wrote. Key words are "objective" and "day 1".
The thing that Xbone has much better exclusives than PS4 is not a fact, is an opinion of yours and you are obviously entitled to have it, but no one has played either exclusives since games are not even complete yet, so what you say might be true eventually, but jumping to this conclusion and stating that as a fact right now seems preemptive.
This seems to be an unfortunate side effect of being a launch title for a system originally thought to have the internet as a requirement. So I'm sure when this decision was originally made, it didn't look as bad as it does now post 180-DRM news.
I wonder if they ever plan to press discs that contain all of the content after the launch timeframe.
I wonder if they ever plan to press discs that contain all of the content after the launch timeframe.
Jawabreaker
Banned
I'm a 31 year old System Administrator for a law firm in Indianapolis. I deal with and am responsible for moderately advanced technology on a daily basis. I can see and recognize the trends that will develop into the future. I say this to state that I firmly have both feet on the ground.
You say that you don't want to be "tied to a monopoly of digital control,
and by the hand of the biggest monopolistic tech company", but never once did I mention what I assume was a reference to MS. I am saying that the future of gaming in general is always on, digital distribution. You can argue that and stomp your feet all you want, but thankfully for the world, technology doesn't cease it's movement based on your preference.
You say that I should go ahead and enjoy my view of a "wonderful" future, but unfortunately, technologically xenophobic people like yourself who lack vision refuse to allow people like me to do that. You are so scared by what-it's that you are holding all of us back.
flyinpiranha
Member
It's preference. It has nothing to do with "holding the world back". That is just a completely close-minded and internal way to look at it. UNTIL this bright and bold future has uncapped broadband, universal access to this uncapped broadband, and at a reasonable price for this universal access, your bright and bold future does shit for a vast majority of the world and to a lesser extent, quite a few people who play these game consoles.
I do integration and enterprise support for a cloud based computing software company, I'm 37 and "my feet are grounded also". But you know what? My company can't sell to a vast majority of our target market because they aren't computer literate and they still have paper trails while others rely solely on what we sell.
I agree that "eventually" things will, for the most part, be all digital. But this isn't even close to a realization with the infrastructure we have (at least in the US). This has nothing to do with "DRM" or if it's "right", it's just not ready yet. The technology is there, but the backbone to support it is at best, spotty.
Forcing these restrictions onto a userbase that is divided in their access to the resources needed isn't a smart business move, AS PROVEN by their role reversal. People can wax poetic about the digital future but the reason everything is a 'service' is so they can charge you for it. They don't want you to have ownership. You can surround this basic belief with as many positives and snake oil charms as you wish, but it's the truth. It does have positives, I won't lie (updates, info anywhere, etc ... ) but the medium that is gaming, has no need for this at this point. It's a WONDERFUL option, but it's not a necessity.
first of all, I'm older than you for a good 2-3 olympic games.
also, i used to work for oracle when I was younger-about your age, and other tech companies as an analyst.
I dont think the vision of the future or the technology escapes me. its just that my vision is a better one, and every chance I get to put my very little piece of stone building it, I will.
then, you say that your comments where not in reference to microsoft, yet you used all those keywords we are sick and tired of hearing from microsoft: "CLOUD", "ALWAYS ONLINE",
"DIGITAL DISTRIBUTION", and you put them all in a sentence in a post talking about microsoft and their day 1 game, calling all others "technophobics who should STFU"
I am sorry if I misjudged your comments, thinking that you are talking about microsoft, since you say here that you arent.
still, the facts of life cannot be refuted by romantic thoughts, and facts say that microsoft is a monopolistic giant that tries to monopolize and control everything they can (not for your benefit), microsoft is a company that has given private information in the past (and present), and microsoft is a company whose name gets involved in many things we are uncomfortable to learn about, so some people keeping an eye open about it, it certainly does not make them either technophobics or Neanderthals.
on the contrary, I'd say that people who are ready to sacrifice everything for a technology or a gadget, or even worse, for a favorite product of a favorite company, these are people that at one point in their lives, they are bound to do some rethinking...
People like owning physical things.
People also like being able to do whatever with the things they've bought; sell them on, lend to friends etc. Digital distribution takes away both of those, so a lot of consumers are (rightly) not happy.
rakkadakka
Member
You wouldn't think that a subset of gamers on "the" gaming message board would be a bunch of luddites but..
Not surprised anymore.
tinfoilhatman
all of my posts are my avatar
Your voice of reason has no place here
Seriously though it's coming people can piss and moan all they want, after I moved all my music and video into the cloud the idea of swapping disks and carrying around plastic cases with discs to play a video game boggles my mind.
flyinpiranha
Member
Oh, I have friends and we lend things sometimes. I also don't always keep things so I sell them. Did I 'boggle your mind'? And there are DVD/BR players at vacation homes we take the family to sometimes and we play movies there for the kid(s). Still 'boggled'?
IT companies are outsourcing R&D to law firms, now? Ok.
Seriously though, if you're actually a sysadmin, you should know that there's a major flaw in your "future is all digital, always on" future, which is the bottleneck that's the internet as we know it. Switching the current backbone to a fast and with an unlimited bandwith one is a thing that will take many, many years to do, if it ever will be done, because in the meantime a better and less expensive technology could appear, such as time travel.
Imagine, time travel straight to the developer room and with an eyeblink have the entire game installed on a nano console implanted under your skin, get back to your home and play the game with your Oculus Rift v10.0.
Now THAT'S a future I'd be happy to join you in. ^_^
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