I don't blame him either. Isreli goverment being so perfect is obviously above any criticism .
the rest of your statement again, please start a thread and we can discuss fully.
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Israel Admits Birth Control Program for Ethiopians (2010, new info 2013)
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I don't blame him either. Isreli goverment being so perfect is obviously above any criticism .
the rest of your statement again, please start a thread and we can discuss fully.
Karma Kramer
Banned
You'll have to quote where I or Qazaq said Israel is above criticism. Because that's not the argument. The argument is that conclusions are made and exaggerated on flimsy evidence. Which is a fascist mindset that should be discouraged and feared. I am not concluding one way or the other. I am remaining open to either possibility. Any form of forced birth control should be criticized of course. Not trying to say this entire article is rubbish or that it couldn't entail a wider conspiracy, just that we don't know that so there's no reason to go around acting crazy about it!
Barbacoatl
Banned
'Could' being the keyword here. Anything in this world 'could'.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Well, this ended up quite the thread. :-(
-Pyromaniac-
Member
I kind of feel bad for qazaq. His whole point amounted to "lets just wait until we learn more" and you guys killed him lol.
Karma Kramer
Banned
Is there a reason he was banned?
*nervous shifty eyes*
*nervous shifty eyes*
StopMakingSense
Member
Read through his posts, there was some pretty assumptive casual racism in there, among his general gleeful ignorance.
SouthernDragon
Member
Not really. His whole point was "We don't know anything, this is all lies, and I'm going to imply you are anti-Semitic in order to discredit the argument you are making".
Barbacoatl
Banned
I especially like the term 'fascist' to describe Haaretz. Want a taste of fascism? You'll get it when you arrive at Ben Gurion and they make you open your gmail, read all of it, detain you for as long as they deem necessary until you get sent back home on a shitty plane because you are persona non grata, even if the blood of Eber runs through your veins.
-Pyromaniac-
Member
Cheesecakebobby
Banned
I agree that this is a flimsy article based on a whole lot of conjecture and missing many crucial facts. Haaretz isn't the worst newspaper in the world but this isn't the first time it has printed a sensationalised version of the truth. I don't agree that in publishing this article, Haaretz has shown itself to be an antisemitic rag, but it has provided fodder for antisemites who like nothing better than to beat Israel with any stick they can find. So really, it's just a stupid article that will no doubt be used by antisemites (probably even after the true facts and figures come out and show the story to be nothing as big as first implied).
Seems no different to the fake story doing the rounds a year or so ago about Israelis harvesting organs. A stupid, badly researched article being lapped up by gullible idiots who can't wait for a modern blood libel. Still Qazaq, it seriously doesn't help to focus on attacking the article itself as antisemitic or by throwing around casual allusions to the Holocaust. Let the idiots show their true colours by automatically jumping at any opportunity to equate the victims of said holocaust with the perpetrators.
Seems no different to the fake story doing the rounds a year or so ago about Israelis harvesting organs. A stupid, badly researched article being lapped up by gullible idiots who can't wait for a modern blood libel. Still Qazaq, it seriously doesn't help to focus on attacking the article itself as antisemitic or by throwing around casual allusions to the Holocaust. Let the idiots show their true colours by automatically jumping at any opportunity to equate the victims of said holocaust with the perpetrators.
Karma Kramer
Banned
Well said and pretty much wraps up this thread until further news.
Do you mean these stories? They weren't fake. The retraction by The Guardian was in mentioning only Palestinian organs were harvested, when in reality both Palestinian and Israeli organs were.
Guardian | Doctor admits Israeli pathologists harvested organs without consent
CNN | Israel harvested organs without permission, officials say
JTA | Israelis arrested for human organ trafficking
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
It's nice to accuse people as idiots for easily believing in stuff when the one who is accusing fell to the same mistakes too.
Cheesecakebobby
Banned
The stories about victims of the Haitian earthquake; I'm not familiar with those stories though they ring a bell.
crackhead_bob
Member
WWJMD -- What Would Josef Mengele Do?
The americans got a lot more shit (and the shit they got was well deserved, still is) for Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo, than Israel ever will for this...
And noone denies that there are people in Israel fighting the good fight. They're just not in power.
Huh? Stories about victims of Earthquakes or stories about Israeli organ harvesting? Your own seems to have completely changed now that the evidence is there on the contrary.
In future I'd refrain from calling people gullible idiots about things they are actually more educated than you about.
Dreams-Visions
Member
snap
Cheesecakebobby
Banned
Stories about Israeli rescue teams harvesting organs from victims of the earthquake. A British Liberal Democrat peer was sacked for repeating the lies.
I'd be more specific in future, seeing as how Israeli organ harvesting stories were in other areas actually true.
The specific case you are talking about was information based off a particular piece originating from a blog called The Palestinian Telegraph. Hardly a bastion of quality news reporting lol.
Cheesecakebobby
Banned
Well I wasn't fully aware of other organ trafficking accusations, other than some possibly related incidents involving bedouin smugglers in the south. So fair enough.
The Palestine Telegraph is a paper too I believe, and Baroness Jenny Tonge was a board member or something similar. True, compared to Haaretz it has more in common with Die Sturmer... The story made its away around the blogosphere which is where I usually go to for discussion on topical issues as I generally distrust all newspapers due to their need to sell copies or attract clicks!
Bare in mind, blogs are just as privy to this tactic as any other outlet, maybe more so since they do not have an established institution for which reputation and credibility is often based on the accuracy of the reporting.
Unlike a blog which is essentially an online opinion piece, newspapers and actual news outlets have a bit more of a public responsibility to accurately inform. Though I appreciate not all news outlets are born equal. Ie trash like Fox News, The Daily Fail or The Sun. But I guarantee a reporting error or mistake such as the one discussed would have an infinitely worse impact on the reputation/credibility of say Haaretz, as it would The Palestinian Telegraph.
The citizens of Israel (not people) just voted to keep the zionists in power.
yes? does that mean that people like "dude", "chichikov" and "cromat" who posts on gaf does not exist?
Cheesecakebobby
Banned
You either don't know what Zionism is or you never noticed that almost all the parties support Zionism. Not to mention that half of voters chose central-left parties but Israel has a system of proportional representation that means every government ends up being a coalition government. It's actually an arguably more democratic electoral process than US, and UK etc as every vote counts but it inevitably produces a fucked up system full of crazy fringe parties playing kingmaker.
Can't seem to find it, could you please link me?
Yeah so democratic that a whole subset of civilians living under Israeli authority and law can't even vote.
Salvor.Hardin
Banned
Man, reading some of these older articles about Israeli opposition to immigrants is harrowing.
This NYT article in particular is pretty insightful
This NYT article in particular is pretty insightful
Almost as bad as Australia.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
I presume this is a birth control program for Ethiopians in Israel?
If so, then it sounds like some sort of eugenics program to ensure that the Ethiopian immigrants never grow in population.
IF you're going to be inhumane like that, just deny them entry to the country instead.
If so, then it sounds like some sort of eugenics program to ensure that the Ethiopian immigrants never grow in population.
IF you're going to be inhumane like that, just deny them entry to the country instead.
Instigator
Banned
They have a dilemma. They're scared of Arab demographics but Ethiopian Jews are not the ideal type of Jews they want in Israel.
Denying them entry would basically make the "Jewish state" moot in more ways than one.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
Since Qazaq is banned (probably for not letting go of the anti-semitic knee-jerk reaction despite it being grossly inappropriate), would you mind breaking down each piece of evidence provided in the article and establish why you believe it is flimsy?
Further, what sort of additional evidence would you require for you to believe this story? With enough prodding Haaretz may do a story update, correction, or follow up piece.
I think we'll start with the facts that are indisputable:
Fact 1: Ethiopian Jews face open discrimination in Israel. Backed up by the very recent protest, a video of which is posted above by the BBC.
Fact 2: Woman to Woman author Hedva Eyal posted a 19 Page report in 2010 on the medical uses of Depo, it's frequency of use in Ethiopian women, responses from authority figures on the administration to these women, direct quotes from these women, and a summary of their findings with recommendations on policy going forward.
The pdf was printed in Arabic, Hebrew, and English:
http://www.wunrn.com/news/2010/01_10/01_04_10/010410_israel.htm
Fact 3: Ethiopian blood donations are routinely discarded as an official policy.
Fact 4: Israel's Health Ministry Director just ordered National clinics to stop administering Depo Provera to women of there was any concern about their lack of consent.
So please, explain to me where the story begins unraveling.
Castor Krieg
Banned
How is that anti-semitic? You do not single out Israel because they are Jews, but because they are accused of eugenics programme. Anti-semitic /= Anti-Israel FFS.
I posted this link in the first page but it seems to go unnoticed, so I'm post it again. The whole recent incident is based on a report, a TV program aired within Israel, where they sent undercover reporters into the clinics with hidden cameras and uncovered the immoral practices. I'd say that's the most damning evidence of all.
http://www.jta.org/news/article/2012/12/11/3114231/report-coerced-contraception-behind-50-percent-decline-in-ethiopian-israeli-birth-rate
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSO0lTmYpc0
Baron Doggystyle von Woof
Member
/thread. so true.
There is no government-sponsored eugenics program. The article is sensationalist because it gets rating. They might have uncovered some medical foul play but accusations of institutionalized racism are ridiculous.
They are not civilians nor do they want to be. They want their own country and sort of have one already. Israelis cannot vote in the Palestinian elections even though their lives are very much affected by who's in charge there.
This thread is terrible like all of the Israel ones. They quickly devolve into people chanting "Anti-Israel isn't antisemitic!" and posting every negative Israel news article they can find.
More people died in the war in Iraq than in the entire Arab-Israeli conflict (including Israelis).
The Arab Spring also has a death toll that approaches that of the entire conflict in only two years and it is still going on.
The never ending need to demonize Israel and everyone who lives in it while ignoring the facts or the context Israel lives in is a hallmark of this forum when it comes to this subject.
goomba said:
They are not civilians nor do they want to be. They want their own country and sort of have one already. Israelis cannot vote in the Palestinian elections even though their lives are very much affected by who's in charge there.
This thread is terrible like all of the Israel ones. They quickly devolve into people chanting "Anti-Israel isn't antisemitic!" and posting every negative Israel news article they can find.
More people died in the war in Iraq than in the entire Arab-Israeli conflict (including Israelis).
The Arab Spring also has a death toll that approaches that of the entire conflict in only two years and it is still going on.
The never ending need to demonize Israel and everyone who lives in it while ignoring the facts or the context Israel lives in is a hallmark of this forum when it comes to this subject.
Why can't you people get it into your heads that criticizing the Israeli government and their policies != hating on every single citizen? It's a simple concept really.
Stop being naive and read the thread.
People here are not disagreeing with the government. They're disagreeing with the country and its right to exist.
Most ironic country, basically Nazis, control the US through AIPAC.
This is NOT criticizing the government so stop pretending it is. People here say that Israel should be dissolved, just read a couple of pages back.
Only in this atmosphere can the allegations raised in this article (which barely received any media attention in Israel) be taken seriously as reflective of the entire country. It's a simple concept really.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
Again I ask, if you're going to assert that the article is nonsense, please post something that contradicts the video testimony posted above (by Israelis), the Woman to Woman report (by an Israeli), and Haaretz's (Israeli newspaper) summary of previous data, their own sources, and the recent statement from the Israeli Health Ministry. Saying the article is shit, garbage, biased, or propaganda over and over again doesn't make it more true. You must present evidence for your side of the argument, namecalling isn't evidence.
The reason everyone jumped down people's throats for casually throwing out the term "anti-semitic" is because it becomes meaningless when used as a catch-all term for anyone who shows Israel in a bad light. Especially so when the whistleblowers/critics are Israeli Jews! If I called Tim Wise or Cornell West racists for criticizing President Obama, I'd look like a fool. If you take a step back I think you can appreciate why many posters feel that its casual use drags the forum into the gutter. It's lazy and reactionary and attempts to discredit the source without actually processing information.
I've seen posts about wishing for either a one state or two state solution, nothing about disagreeing with the country's right to exist.
The Nazi comments are aimed at the story in the OP, which if true (not saying it is) would be very Nazi-like of the government. Also, you can't disagree with the fact that the AIPAC has a lot of influence in the US.
Tim the Wiz
Banned
I can't speak for anyone else, but here is a straw man often used with little basis in reality, and often in paranoia. There are policies of the current Israeli government that deserve criticism and, in this case, condemnation.
I think if I am right, the efforts of the Israel government to condone or even encourage the mistreatment of minorities in the country (in this case, Ethiopians) is outlined pretty clearly in the evidence. Israel still has a lot to do before they start really treating their citizens in a way that would be "good enough" for me stop looking at them so critically.
That being said, I think the Nazi comparison is unnecessary and inflammatory. There might be some valid similarities between what's happening than and now, but no where near the same levels of horrible. Just mentioning it creates a false equivalency intentionally or unintentionally, and it just ruins the chance of any fruitful discussion.
That being said, I think the Nazi comparison is unnecessary and inflammatory. There might be some valid similarities between what's happening than and now, but no where near the same levels of horrible. Just mentioning it creates a false equivalency intentionally or unintentionally, and it just ruins the chance of any fruitful discussion.
Castor Krieg
Banned
WUT?
1) This is logically untrue. For one thing. "Anti-Semitic" refers to people not governments. It would have to be directed towards the Israeli people themselves not the Israeli government. An unfair attack on the Israeli government would be "anti-Israeli" not anti-Semitic.
For another, let's assume this is completely bogus. Let's assume for the sake of argument that it's a conspiracy theory absurdity on the same level of Obama was born in Kenya. Then let's change the facts around. Instead of "an [Israeli government] eugenics program" let's replace that with "9-11 was an inside job devised by the Bush administration", and "anti semitic" with "anti American"
If we do that your statement reads as follow: "Pretty much... hopefully more investigation will be pursued if 9-11 was an inside job devised by the Bush administration, but until there is evidence, acting like there is, could be considered anti American".
So how is this anti-American? It has nothing to do with the American people. It's purely a criticism - no matter how inane - of the government. In exactly the same way your statement has nothing to do with "Semitic" people.
2) There is evidence. The problem is that he (and it seem you now) have decided that little evidence means no evidence, and you've decided to turn the table on those using that evidence to decry them as racists. Do you realize both you and Qazaq have accused people of racism and bigotry for criticizing a government. This is a sad trope that unfortunately plagues basically every conversation I've ever seen about questioning Israel's questionable actions.
It makes it impossible to have a reasonable discourse on the subject and does nothing but solidify the opinions people already have about Israel. It's more knee-jerk than the knee-jerk reactions against Israel.
It's also so cliche that it appears that you, him, and other of the same position have arrived at this position, not because you've looked at the totality of the evidence and critically weighed the issue, but because you have an emotional disposition that you've allowed to be manipulated by the Israeli government's propaganda machine. That's why you're "drinking the Kool-Aid". You are ingesting what they are giving you without asking what is in it.
AnathemicOne
Banned
Israel is such a fucked up country...
I didn't say the article was shit, garbage, biased or propaganda. It's good that this is brought to light
I was saying that concluding widespread institutional racism because of this article is at the very least premature.
You know what's the biggest reason I don't think it is as bad as everyone here seems to assume (government eugenics)? Because if it was, the media in Israel would be all over it. The police would also get involved. Politicians would have to answer for it. If you think a government eugenics plan against the Ethiopian community would raise no objections then you are grossly mistaken.
Right now it seems to me like some medical prejudice might have happened, but the racist, government-dictated motivation part is overreaching.
As for the 'anti-semitic' thing, often people start shouting about it before anyone even accuses anyone of being anti-semitic.
I stand behind my earlier posts that Israel gets harsher treatment and is more demonized collectively as a country. You might think that Israel is appalling but I think you will still find it hard to disagree with this. It is evident in this forum and in other places in the Internet.
This is not paranoia. I've been in this forum for a while and I know how Israel discussions always go.
If you were to criticize the current Israeli government I would be the first to join you. But four years ago there was a different government in Israel, one that negotiated and arguably almost reached peace with the Palestinians. That government also took the decision to destroy the Syrian nuclear reactor, which is why the entire world doesn't need to worry about a nuclear-armed desperate Assad. But the treatment Israel got then was no different than what it is now. I was here.
So in short, I am not paranoid. This is not some persecution complex, it's a feeling that is backed by the facts. The simplest proof is the page count for every Israel thread in this forum and the type of posts therein. Just as a reminder, the death toll in Egypt in the last few days surpasses the death toll of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in the last two years.
Also the current government basically lost the elections. The new parliament and government includes much more moderate, sensible people. The biggest bigots got kicked out. The far right which was supposed to overtake the country stayed within its known limits. Netanyahu and his party suffered a huge setback, even though he was basically unchallenged as a candidate for Prime Minister.
Tim the Wiz
Banned
This is a rather glib summation of affairs. A large portion of a medical community exercised patterned discriminatory health policies on the basis of ethnicity for a number of years - possibly over a decade - which affected the lives of many Israeli citizens. The fact that this isn't receiving major attention in the Israeli press shouldn't be treated as reassurance, but rather as problematic.
"Harsher treatment" and "more demonized collectively" than who, exactly? Why the reflexive and nebulous comparativeness? Criticism can exist on a prima facie level. I certainly don't view condemnation of institutional policy (or government) as a collective demonization of the nations where such institutions (or governments) exist.
In the context of discourse with liberal critique, the "feeling" that people are questioning Israel's right to exist is for the most part a straw man fallacy. The "facts" seem to be your gut-level response to the tenor and interest people take with issues involving Israel.
I find it interesting that you bring up that statistic. Although there has been moderation with the last election cycle, so long as the sanity of a settlement freeze does not prevail, the indication is that no new drive toward serious engagement with a peace agreement will take place. And putting up walls to keep the Arabs out simply becomes papering over the cracks. In this century, a larger and larger demographic of people within those walls will be of Arab descent, let alone outside them. The choice will come down between an untenable petite-apartheid state, or a state that is no longer a Jewish democratic state but rather a democratic state where someone with an Arab surname could become leader of Israel (lol), or a two-state solution. Right now, that choice is merely being delayed, and upheld by posturing, resolute and hardened by decades of bloodshed and ancient history.
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