-Pyromaniac-
Member
heyyyy I'm not the one calling a whole group of jews nazis but then again I'm sure it was a joke amirite.
maybe he thinks the same about you guys?
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Israel Admits Birth Control Program for Ethiopians (2010, new info 2013)
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Dreams-Visions
Member
INCEPTION
Look, you need to very carefully understand what I'm saying:
- I'm not saying people can't criticize the Israeli government.
- I'm not saying criticism of the Israel government equates to criticism of Jewish people.
But you're ignoring that, when it comes to Israel, there is a unique thing that happens where criticism of the Jewish state gets lopped in with genuine anti-Semitism, because people with an agenda do not disguise themselves as obviously as a deer in the middle of a road.
It does little things like this. Paints a picture, distorts what's really going on, presents only the absolute worst conclusions, and counts on people not questioning what they're reading.
This happens all the time.
People with genuine anti-Semitic feelings direct all their outrage towards Israel. What are they otherwise going to do, if they're in the Middle East? Go around and call all those New York Jews ugly names?
The Israeli government, unfortunately, helps themselves so little.
But instead of screaming for umpteenth time about how criticism against Israel does not equate to anti-Semitism... do you ever wonder why Jewish people ever feel this way? You don't think Jewish people can make the distinction? The fact is, many actual anti Semities, or even if they aren't that label, people with prejudice, preys upon people who AREN'T anti Semitic but know what buttons to push in order to make the world hate Israel.
Again, we have people here willing to believe at the blink of an eye that Israel has a eugenics program. That's absolutely nuts. Or is it more nuts that no one's willing to acknowledge how nuts that is, and on just how little evidence it's given?
I have no idea what it is. I don't know what Haaretz is. I don't make any claims towards what Haaretz is. All I'm attempting to do is look at the article, what it's saying, what it's not saying, and look at the reactions to it.
Gentleman Jack
Member
You are Glenn Beck at his chalkboard.
It is natural to question reporting, even wise. But you are not doing this. You are placing your any number of alternate scenarios on equal footing with the information that comes as a result of the reporting of Haaretz, directives from Israel's Health Minister director general, and the interviews of Gal Gabbay. They have interviews and quotes and context. You have theories pulled whole cloth from nothing.
Crazy.
Is this an alternate universe?
We have an article that attempts to say Israel, very essentially, has a eugenics program. A systematic effort to make a group of women infertile based on racism.
So because I'm the one NOT jumping to the first conclusions of the article, because I'm NOT jumping to the obvious conspiracy theory... I'm Glenn Beck?
Yet everyone ignoring the insanely obvious holes and very loose dots that have to be pieced together to arrive at this insane conclusion... THAT is sane? How a quote from one or two women out of pro ported THIRTY FIVE out of hundreds of thousands equates to a government wide conspiracy?
But *I'm* Glenn Beck?
People scare me. This is why things like the Holocaust happen.
I mean the reporting of Haaretz didn't even give you actual birth number figures. Just a percentage and a day care worker's conjecture. THAT is what counts for hard facts, and concrete reporting?
The Israel's Health Minister mentioning for doctors to make absolute sure any women weren't being given a drug they didn't fully understand, and that doctors should use translators just to be safe... that's government systemic racism?
*I'M* the Glenn Beck?
The fuck lol. Anti-semite got taken to inevitable next level. We're at Super Saiyan level 4 now.
Blatantly ignoring a potential eugenics scenario and passing it off as anti-semetic propaganda? Extremely hyperbolic, but still a closer parallel than your ridiculous claims of anti-Israel conspiracy.
You cannot possibly think your arguments have merit when you continue comparing people to Hitler for implying that Israel is capable of fault.
You cant even hide your ugly anti-semitism. it's this twisted way, where people try to create this evil image of Jewish people. saying stuff like Israeli government can't help them self is dumb and stupid , which directly applies Jewish people don't know what they are doing and are ignorant of what's going on or are helpless as a nation.
Why am I the loony one when we have people going "What a bunch of Ashkenazis"?
The figure "declined 57%" -- from what number to what number? This is basic shit here. But it's okay for everyone to keep rattling on about a eugenics program?
And yet I have no right to feel riled up or the least bit offended?
Dreams-Visions
Member
gonna go ly dow now
From the number taken by the same organisation 10 years ago. I'm assuming rounded to reflect population.
Necromanti
Member
It was. An unfortunate pun, not something I believe to be true.
So when people are willing to swallow what is being reported to them when obvious facts are missing, in order to paint a government (and, society, as many other posters here lumped both in) as evil? For yet another round of "apartheid" and "Nazi" comments?
Yes, peoples' refusal to question is indeed why stuff like the Holocaust happens. Because they're fed something that is shoddy at best, come to a conclusion, get riled up, forms impressions, rinse, repeat.
I have no idea about Haaretz. I'm not accusing them of being anti-Semitic. But this article, it's just absolutely nuts in what it's trying to say with so little evidence. It's a bad article, at lightest.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Hahahahaha, wow!
I very rarely ever have the chance to see Anti Israel = Anti Semitic in action, so this sort of fascinating to see for me.
And for the holocaust card to be drawn too! Fascinating.
...And what is it?
You're assuming. Exactly! We don't know.
It's literally absolutely basic fact. It's not some throwaway detail.
There are so many facts omitted in this article, but I just find the lack of actual hard numbers about the births so obviously egregious.
People don't think there's a difference if Israeli Ethiopians go from having 8 kids to 4 kids? Or from 4 kids to basically 1? Or that it matters in what context it's being compared to? Basic, basic stuff.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
You specifically said that the article in the OP, which you specifically said you read, reads like anti semitic propaganda.
You claim that their statistics lack context. (What does it matter if the number went from 10 to 5 or 6 to 3 or 4 to 2? Half is half. And they cite someone who works with Ethiopian children noticing their place of work becoming a ghost town.)
You claim that their sources lack credibility and/or their quotes are fabricated.
You claim they are making astounding leaps of logic from limited information.
You are putting the oldest Jewish newspaper in circulation under the microscope and claiming the author has an anti-Jewish agenda. I'm just asking if you mean it, because those are pretty serious accusations. If you don't mean it, don't casually throw it out there as a catch-all phrase to deflect discussion.
If you've actually been reading the comments, you've no doubt seen that these kinds of programs were widespread in the USA for decades. People make Nazi jokes because of the irony involved and because it's the only eugenics program ever covered in public education, but would it make you feel more comfortable if they just said Israel has policies similar to 1950's USA instead of 1940's Germany?
Yes, please, feel free to ask any questions, I'm happy to answer.
But I haven't been throwing it out casually. I hadn't mentioned Haaretz until you made me mention it. I'm saying, at the very lightest, it's a shoddily written article that wants you to think something very specifically -- without providing you much in the way of evidence in order to think it.
No, because, again, you're literally leaping to conclusions that have no basis in fact. Why are you so absolutely certain that of all things its a eugenics program?
Karma Kramer
Banned
I think I am in agreement with Qazaq and it doesn't surprise me that here (mostly a group that I would call "the new left") we see so many people making extreme exaggerations against Israel. Which seems rooted with the new lefts extreme support of Palestine (and in some cases Hamas) over Israel. Instead of standing up for our ideals and supporting countries that hold those ideals, we look at the amount dead, assume racism from Westerners/Western Governments (because of the media, Iraq [which was an altruistic war that was incompetently handled BUT eliminated a fascist regime that was responsible for AT LEAST hundreds of thousands of its own civilians killed] and our history with racism and continued racism within the US/Europe [Birth Certificate is a good example: though again partly exaggerated by the media or at least promoted to a degree that induces it] and ASSUME that if we do nothing and don't involve ourselves, Middle Eastern/African and other Third World countries will behave altruistic and democratic by themselves. The new Left is so eager to attack Christianity (as am I) but they hold back against the more extreme and fascist uses of religion with Islamic states. This is why we hear so much exaggeration against Israel and foreign involvement in the Middle East. And to wrap up back on this article, I am not supporting Israel, I am just agreeing with Qazaq that we shouldn't jump to conclusions (as most seem to be doing here). But of course Conspiracy and Jews go hand in hand with anti-western/capitalistic views.
Offended? What? Why would you be offended by this? Are you the Israeli government? See, that's what you don't seem to be getting: criticizing the Israeli government isn't the same thing as criticizing Israeli people or even Jewish people. But I'm not wasting my time with this. Actually this whole thing is funny. Pretty epic meltdown man.
Dude, have solace that most people reading all this think you made some good points and argued pretty coherently.
Haaretz is an age old, established and generally widely reputable news agency, though like all others, they can make mistakes. I can't read the article on the actual site (says I have to have an account), I can only read what is written in the OP, but if Haaretz makes such a claim, they will generally have very credible backing and research most times out of ten, this I can assure you. They would not risk the reputation of their establishment on such tom foolery or as you state, made up propaganda, especially on such a poignant article and damning claim.
So you are saying who is the Victim in this story? Just want to be clear.
And yet the "credible backing and research" is absent in this shit article.
Because people who are actually anti Semitic and threaten to wipe out Israel do tend to love mixing in with those who just criticize Israel.
And frankly, because everyone's willingness to jump to "Eugenics" and "Nazi" at such scant evidence is offensive, yes.
I don't mean this as a defense of the things the Israeli government does, but you know, when a country is established after a group of people has endured yet the latest attempt by the world to wipe them out, they don't fuck around, or let other people fuck them around.
And I'm not Israeli.
I agree, I can't imagine Israeli goverment being against its own Jewish ethopian ..
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-16627159
Um, what?
If you're genuinely offended because people equate the questionable practices of the Israeli with "Nazis" then I feel sorry for you.
Karma Kramer
Banned
I'm saying the article has flimsy evidence and that nothing rash should be concluded on it. But many people on the new left ignore the entire situation and just focus on the negatives of Western foreign aggression. So that's all they see and that's all they want to see. It's the kind of people who start their argument about Iraq with "Yeah Saddam was a bad guy..." To loosely quote Christopher Hitchens, they have no idea what it would be like to live under his fascist regime, to be forced to applaud the execution of your own family members. To be in fear of your life to voice your opinion about his regime and handlings. They don't see this side (and I am not suggesting I know what thats like either, cause I don't) but when you phrase him as "yeah he was a bad guy" you are assuming you do understand and that you can weigh the post-Saddam Iraq against Saddam Iraq. All these attitudes that have been building up EXPLAIN why so many people call Israel nazis or a monster etc... The evidence is flimsy for those kind of comparisons and I can only explain those comparisons by general attitudes of the new left.
I'm not Israeli either btw.
Wow, now the all of world is anti-Semitic
I say majority of that world gave there lives to save them.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Nah, not gonna bother.
Look for Dreams-Vision for example; not gonna bother like him. You're consistent though, I'll give you that.
I'll just be here, entertained by your continuous replies to people. "The latest attempt by the world to wipe them out" for example; that's priceless.
The fact (?) that you are not Israeli makes it even more fascinating.
No one has denied that there is racism the Ethiopians have to contend with.
But, um, how does "certain landlords in southern Israel" mean governmet?
And you do realize that in the middle east, Israel is one of the most liberal when it comes to minority rights...right?
I mean "world" in that there was another mass effort to wipe out the Jews on a global scale -- as has happened since the Jewish religion was founded. Jews are well aware of that history.
CoffeeJanitor
Member
Yup. It's saddening to read.
It IS offensive -- because people are willing to do it at the shoddiest evidence presented to them.
Yes, it is fucking offensive.
What did one had anything to do with other. If you want to talk about Iraq war, Hitchens comment about living in fascist regime ect you can always start a thread and we would love to discuss it.
We could, of course, also talk about the "Flimsy evidence" part which no one seems to care about but I've been shouting about all this time.
Lol, I love how quickly you can now differentiate between people and goverment . Amazing.
No it's not. Offensive is the way the Israeli government treats Palestinians. Offensive is the way Ahmadinejad denies the Holocaust. Criticizing the Israeli government no matter how scant the evidence isn't offensive. Grow up.
...But I mean, I really don't understand why landlords discriminating against Ethiopians means there's a government eugenics program?
Karma Kramer
Banned
It's relevant to the discussion, specifically Qazaq's point about why he finds conclusions made against Israel in this thread offensive. I believe its related to general feelings of anti-western foriegn involvement in the middle east and therefore the continued hatred against Israel for being a western force in that region.
Saying there's a government-wide eugenics program when there's almost no evidence is morally repugnant, illogical, offensive, and just plain fucking stupid.
Lolz. Keep drinking that Kool-Aid buddy.
Karma Kramer
Banned
Pretty much... hopefully more investigation will be pursued if there is a government wide eugenics program, but until there is evidence, acting like there is, could be considered anti semitic.
Demanding evidence is the opposite of drinking kool-aid. That's for people who refuse to acknowledge counter arguments against their beliefs.
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