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[Terra Firma]

That's the thing. Jews in Israel believe that they can never be safe in a country unless they are the majority since they have been persecuted by so many regimes through out their history. The Palestinians need to break down the walls they have against the Jews and both parties need to accept each other as brothers under a united Semtic nation. Once that happens they need to create a constitution which will guarantee the security of all peoples in their country.

Too bad this will never happen.

Israel hasn't really helped its case in the past 60 years. If Israel had never expanded settlements, violating international laws, and hadn't invaded Gaza and the West Bank numerous times to carry out disproportionate violence, then the Palestinians would be more receptive. But how can a mother/father who has lost her/his entire family to Israeli attacks be so forgiving and inviting to Israelis? The level of suffering is disproportionate. There are more orphans among the Palestinians. There are more people who have lost a lot more on the Palestinian side. A dead brother, sister, mother or father, daughter or son is not something you forget nor is it something that is easily forgiven.

Yes, initially, the Palestinians did want to take back all of Palestine but since at least the 80s (possibly even earlier), they haven't dared to think that as a majority because they know it is impossible, especially since they don't have any real aid from the other Arab nations whereas America and a lot of Europe has Israel's back.

Also, the plan you're talking about that Olmert offered - would it happen to be the same or worse than the plan that Arafat rejected at Camp David? If it is the same, then if you've done any research, you'll realize that the lands being granted to Arafat by Barak were a deception, as it would have practically turned the West Bank into a giant prison, with Israeli checkpoints and roads dividing up the entirety of the West Bank and Gaza, with no independent airspace, no independent access to potable water, and no meaningful borders.

EDIT:

Banned...oh well. I think esquire was more deserving of that honour for calling another an anti-Semite without basis.

 

[Qazaq]

You know what's missing in this thread?


People not rushing to ridiculous conclusions based upon their pre-supposed definitions of what Israel is or what this is supposed to mean.

There are only a few, specific facts here:

- Israel welcomed this community in. Without resistance? Of course not. But they took these people in.
- There are indeed many class/race divisions in Israel and the Ethiopian Jews have indeed had a time adjusting.
- A few women have anonymously said they were "forced" and "threatened" to take this injection.
- A mod has posted that this article is painting a biased portrait of the drug. While not being a "fact", it certainly is something no one else was even willing to consider.

"The answers we received from officials demonstrated overt racism," Ms Eyal said. "They suggested that Ethiopian women should be treated not as individuals but as a collective group whose reproduction needs controlling

Um, this is insanely hyperbolic phrasing. She jumps to huge conclusions herself. I'm not a doctor, but I'd be willing to bet if a group of people fairly recently came from a region replete with illnesses and different cultural differences and health concerns, yes, they might have to be looked at medically speaking as a collective group, especially when dealing with an issue like birth control that affects A GROUP OF (ANY KIND OF) WOMEN! THE HORROR!!!

Ms Mangoli said it was extremely difficult to get immigrant Ethiopian families to speak out because they were afraid that their Jewishness was under suspicion and that they might be deported if they caused trouble.

This woman runs a day care center. That's it. It's literally her sheer conjecture, and we have no idea what her background is or why her opinion literally means ANYTHING. Do you go to your local elementary school teacher for opinions about government treatment of minorities?

There's obviously a serious story here, but one detail makes me doubt at least some elements of it -- depo provera isn't "controversial", it's not "long-term", and although it has been associated with bone density loss, the article portrays it as if there is a horrible drug, un-approved, wild and dangerous. I know many people on depo provera, and at least in the country where I live, it is not treated the way this article treats it.

Now, again, that's not to say anything about the troubling social aspects the article treats, the apparent racism at play, etc. I'm just saying that the article is not neutral in its presentation of depo provera.

Did anyone literally care when a mod, a poster said this? Did anyone stop to think that, yes, in other cultures certain medicines are held to different standards and opinions?

No, even though we now have someone definitively suggesting that the article is certainly biased against this drug and isn't really painting the whole picture -- people go from "unknown drug that may cause bone density loss that is otherwise used as birth control" to "ISRAEL IS DELIBERATELY KEEPING THE ETHIOPIAN POPULATION DOWN IN A SYSTEMIC EFFORT."

How about you all look at what the god-forsaken article actually says and stop jumping to conclusions because you're literally already coming to this story with the lens of "ISRAELI APARTHEID!!!11"

Basically, it seems to say little more than a few doctors were administering Ethiopian Jews a form of birth control that the women may not really fully understand what they're taking, and once higher ups found out about it, the doctors were asked to stop.

 

[Qazaq]

Allegations of official racism towards Ethiopians gained prominence in 2006 when it was admitted that for many years all their blood donations had been discarded for fear that they might be contaminated with diseases.

Jesus Christ, I'M GAY, I get discriminated against donating blood by my own government. Should it be overturned? Of course. And why has it not? I don't know the full situation around the issue, but it seems to be that these sort of things are difficult to overturn and clearly matters as sensitive and important as blood supply policy aren't dependent on the whims of what constitutes political correctness at the moment.



Everyone came in here with such knives that they checked their critical thinking and basic reasoning and journalistic questioning at the door. Regardless of what you think about Israel, it really gets bothersome and it DOES put a lot of Jews who support Israel on the defensive because people post these articles with a ton of inflated hyperbole, that don't offer much in the way of any facts but are intended to rile people up, and then no one is willing to check their pre-suppositions for two seconds to look at what is actually being said through each person's own personal "is this real or bullshit?" meter that everyone just piles on the "Israelis are being like Nazis!" thing. It's just crazy.

 

[wildfire]

Why was Teva banned?

Zionist Israel will be looked back on just as Apartheid South Africa is now.

Im hopeful that true democracy will occur , having one state with equal rights for Palestinians and Jews alike (what a concept!). I think it was Gaddafi who coined the name "Israelestine"

As deplorable as this situation is or how problematic it's relationship with Palestinians are, no it won't. Israel's history isn't similar to apartheid S. Africa. Also what the people want from both regions are very different.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

You know what's missing in this thread?


People not rushing to ridiculous conclusions based upon their pre-supposed definitions of what Israel is or what this is supposed to mean.

There are only a few, specific facts here:

- Israel welcomed this community in. Without resistance? Of course not. But they took these people in.
- There are indeed many class/race divisions in Israel and the Ethiopian Jews have indeed had a time adjusting.
- A few women have anonymously said they were "forced" and "threatened" to take this injection.
- A mod has posted that this article is painting a biased portrait of the drug. While not being a "fact", it certainly is something no one else was even willing to consider.




Um, this is insanely hyperbolic phrasing. She jumps to huge conclusions herself. I'm not a doctor, but I'd be willing to bet if a group of people fairly recently came from a region replete with illnesses and different cultural differences and health concerns, yes, they might have to be looked at medically speaking as a collective group, especially when dealing with an issue like birth control that affects A GROUP OF (ANY KIND OF) WOMEN! THE HORROR!!!



This woman runs a day care center. That's it. It's literally her sheer conjecture, and we have no idea what her background is or why her opinion literally means ANYTHING. Do you go to your local elementary school teacher for opinions about government treatment of minorities?



Did anyone literally care when a mod, a poster said this? Did anyone stop to think that, yes, in other cultures certain medicines are held to different standards and opinions?

No, even though we now have someone definitively suggesting that the article is certainly biased against this drug and isn't really painting the whole picture -- people go from "unknown drug that may cause bone density loss that is otherwise used as birth control" to "ISRAEL IS DELIBERATELY KEEPING THE ETHIOPIAN POPULATION DOWN IN A SYSTEMIC EFFORT."

How about you all look at what the god-forsaken article actually says and stop jumping to conclusions because you're literally already coming to this story with the lens of "ISRAELI APARTHEID!!!11"

Basically, it seems to say little more than a few doctors were administering Ethiopian Jews a form of birth control that the women may not really fully understand what they're taking, and once higher ups found out about it, the doctors were asked to stop.

.....

what, exactly, are you arguing? Let's break this down like a lawyer would.

1.) Depo Provera is a drug used exclusively for birth control and alleviation of symptoms related to menstrual cycles.

2.) Depo Provera was used on women without their consent. Ethiopian women, in particular, were targeted.

3.) Depo Provera was administered on a cycle to these women specifically, under the guise that they were being 'inoculated' and those women took them under threat or fear.

4.) Government officials have acknowledged the program.

5.) "Health Ministry Director General Prof. Ron Gamzu has instructed the four health maintenance organizations to stop the practice as a matter of course."

6.) This story is not based on the commentary from a daycare worker; they're based on "the results of interviews with 35 Ethiopian immigrants".

7.) The birthrate in the community declined 50% over 10 years. Abnormal to say the very least.

8.) We have no reason to believe any immigrant women of any other ethnicnic background were subjected to this, as information shows "Clalit, the largest health company, however, did provide figures showing that 57 per cent of its Depo Provera users were Ethiopian compared with a handful of women in other ethnic groups."

So again I ask, what exactly are you trying to argue? That the story used hyperbole? That Depo Provera doesn't actually have side-effects that are rough on some women? That Depo Provera wasn't actually administered?

I'm confused.

Why was Teva banned?

Were I to venture a guess: If it was related to this thread, I'd suggest it was his extraordinarily combative tone. He flailed wildly at posters, accusing several of being anti-semites simply because they drew different conclusions, had different opinions, or used analogies that were not to his liking. He did very little conversing and a lot of attacking.

 

[Hieberrr]

Systematically reducing the population? Gee hypocrites much?

 

[Clipjoint]

Look, we all agree that Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish state. Doesn't that mean it has a right to maintain that Jewish nature by any means possible, including eugenics? I don't see the controversy here.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Look, we all agree that Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish state. Doesn't that mean it has a right to maintain that Jewish nature by any means possible, including eugenics? I don't see the controversy here.

<3

Certainly its average citizenry doesn't believe this is okay. The nation's elected officials, however, scare the shit out of me.

 

[Zeus Molecules]

Sounds like something Nazis would do.

<3

Certainly its average citizenry doesn't believe this is okay. The nation's elected officials, however, scare the shit out of me.

That tends to be the way of the world but Eugenics is just pure evil

 

[Verano]

<3

Certainly its average citizenry doesn't believe this is okay. The nation's elected officials, however, scare the shit out of me.

that and that our politicians who are elected in the american government have to be pro-israel. I forgot that one guy's name that Obama wants in his team and the conservatives went into attack mode by stating that they didn't trust him because he wasn't pro-israel enough or highly critical of israel correct me if wrong. Overall, shit's cray.

 

[Qazaq]

1.) Depo Provera is a drug used exclusively for birth control and alleviation of symptoms related to menstrual cycles.

And yet we have someone personally attest to that this drug is regarded differently in other countries.

2.) Depo Provera was used on women without their consent. Ethiopian women, in particular, were targeted.

According to what?

3.) Depo Provera was administered on a cycle to these women specifically, under the guise that they were being 'inoculated' and those women took them under threat or fear.

Again, according to what?

4.) Government officials have acknowledged the program.

"The" problem?

What are you counting as "the" problem?

Using the drug, or it being used if the women weren't totally sure what it was?

6.) This story is not based on the commentary from a daycare worker; they're based on "the results of interviews with 35 Ethiopian immigrants".

Wow, you have such high scientific standards. It's a wonder you're not working for the government.

Ethiopian Jews are, what, about 200,000? A few percentage points of 6 million Jews.

And you're talking about thirty five of them? ANONYMOUSLY? Only using the anecdotes of one or TWO?

7.) The birthrate in the community declined 50% over 10 years. Abnormal to say the very least.

Again -- from what, to what, according to what?

Have you stopped to consider that a group of women who are in a totally new country, culture, and economic circumstance coupled with the new medicinal treatments available might have something to do with it?

You're letting those pesky facts get in the way of your narrative. You ignore any context. I really don't have the background to make any of these claims, but generally speaking women in poverty tend to have a lot of kids. Women in Africa tend to have a lot of kids. Is it not shocking that women from Africa who are used to having a ton of kids, once they moved to a new country where they wouldn't be able to survive unless, say, both parents worked -- you wouldn't expect a rapid decline in birthrates to become more attuned of the typical Israeli household?

8.) We have no reason to believe any immigrant women of any other ethnicnic background were subjected to this, as information shows "Clalit, the largest health company, however, did provide figures showing that 57 per cent of its Depo Provera users were Ethiopian compared with a handful of women in other ethnic groups."

"Subjected"? And, again, what does "handful" mean compared to 57 percent? You're phrasing it as if 57% is basically the equivalent of 95% with a few traces of everyone else. That's a bit more than half, and we don't have any actual raw numbers --- Ethiopian Jews are only a small fraction of the population.



Remember -- the assertion being made here is that Israel is essentially systematically causing a minority group to not be able to reproduce against their will. This isn't just a throwaway claim that needn't be backed up by much.

 

[Kad5]

Look, we all agree that Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish state. Doesn't that mean it has a right to maintain that Jewish nature by any means possible, including eugenics? I don't see the controversy here.

This right here is the potential danger of the creation of ethnic nation-states.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Qazaq, either you're not being serious, or you didn't read the OP.

All of the answers to your questions are there. Honestly, your response is baffling at best. I'm trying to be nice. Read the OP and report back. Otherwise, don't waste my time.

 

[Qazaq]

Qazaq, either you're not being serious, or you didn't read the OP.

All of the answers to your questions are there. Honestly, your response is baffling at best. I'm trying to be nice. Read the OP and report back. Otherwise, don't waste my time.

I have read the OP.

That's your problem right there. You're literally only reading the OP, coupled with your pre-judgments. There are almost no facts presented in the report, there are very few hard numbers, and the very few literal figures they give (thirty five women?) are so minute as to not be worthy of grouping them under this umbrella.

And your judgments have no grounding in fact, context, and reality.


You're the one trying to essentially argue that Israel is systematically coercing this group of women, based on their ethnicity, to not be able to have kids against their will.

That's a huge argument, and the flimsiness of the OP is not sufficient enough to make that claim.

You can dodge and be "baffled" all you want, but the fact is -- you don't have any.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

the very few literal figures they give (thirty five women?) are so minute as to not be worthy of grouping them under this umbrella.

The more significant 'literal figure' is

The women’s testimony could help explain the almost 50-percent decline over the past 10 years in the birth rate of Israel’s Ethiopian community.

Is this being made up? What's your basis for discounting this as unworthy of discussion or investigation?

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Jesus Christ, I'M GAY, I get discriminated against donating blood by my own government. Should it be overturned? Of course. And why has it not? I don't know the full situation around the issue, but it seems to be that these sort of things are difficult to overturn and clearly matters as sensitive and important as blood supply policy aren't dependent on the whims of what constitutes political correctness at the moment.

It may amaze you, but discrimination against gay blood samples is deeply rooted in the ignorant belief that HIV was a "gay" disease. It's the exact same thing, a text book example of fear mongering against undesirable people.

And yet we have someone personally attest to that this drug is regarded differently in other countries.



According to what?



Again, according to what?



"The" problem?

What are you counting as "the" problem?

Using the drug, or it being used if the women weren't totally sure what it was?




Wow, you have such high scientific standards. It's a wonder you're not working for the government.

Ethiopian Jews are, what, about 200,000? A few percentage points of 6 million Jews.

And you're talking about thirty five of them? ANONYMOUSLY? Only using the anecdotes of one or TWO?



Again -- from what, to what, according to what?

Have you stopped to consider that a group of women who are in a totally new country, culture, and economic circumstance coupled with the new medicinal treatments available might have something to do with it?

You're letting those pesky facts get in the way of your narrative. You ignore any context. I really don't have the background to make any of these claims, but generally speaking women in poverty tend to have a lot of kids. Women in Africa tend to have a lot of kids. Is it not shocking that women from Africa who are used to having a ton of kids, once they moved to a new country where they wouldn't be able to survive unless, say, both parents worked -- you wouldn't expect a rapid decline in birthrates to become more attuned of the typical Israeli household?



"Subjected"? And, again, what does "handful" mean compared to 57 percent? You're phrasing it as if 57% is basically the equivalent of 95% with a few traces of everyone else. That's a bit more than half, and we don't have any actual raw numbers --- Ethiopian Jews are only a small fraction of the population.



Remember -- the assertion being made here is that Israel is essentially systematically causing a minority group to not be able to reproduce against their will. This isn't just a throwaway claim that needn't be backed up by much.

You responded to his post, but you didn't actually respond to many of his points. Just so we're clear, Depo isn't inherently a bad thing (as stump mentioned). Many birth control medications have severe side effects depending on the patient. The drug was not administered in this case to cause harm - the allegation is that it was administered as an easy means (compared to say, a daily pill) to control the Ethiopian population. The statistics were offered up by one of the drug companies (in the OP). The fact that it happened is implicit, since an Israeli official released a statement ordering it to stop (also in the OP). The testimony about it being disguised as inoculation comes from the reporters doing their jobs. If you choose not to believe it, that's your prerogative, but I don't understand why an Israeli women's rights group would make up a story like this about a drug that only a fraction of 2% of the population is taking. I'd love to hear your logical reasons for discrediting both OP stories, especially if you have links that counter the information provided.

 

[Verano]

I have read the OP.

That's your problem right there. You're literally only reading the OP, coupled with your pre-judgments. There are almost no facts presented in the report, there are very few hard numbers, and the very few literal figures they give (thirty five women?) are so minute as to not be worthy of grouping them under this umbrella.

And your judgments have no grounding in fact, context, and reality.


You're the one trying to essentially argue that Israel is systematically coercing this group of women, based on their ethnicity, to not be able to have kids against their will.

That's a huge argument, and the flimsiness of the OP is not sufficient enough to make that claim.

You can dodge and be "baffled" all you want, but the fact is -- you don't have any.

just wtf are you talking/arguing about then? You obviously ignore the facts because it doesn't suit your logic. You don't provide any rational argument(s) other than argue for the sake of arguing. You blindly attack other posters like dreams-visions because he seems condescending to you even though he's being quite courteous to you as to understand what the hell you're arguing about.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

I have read the OP.

That's your problem right there. You're literally only reading the OP, coupled with your pre-judgments. There are almost no facts presented in the report, there are very few hard numbers, and the very few literal figures they give (thirty five women?) are so minute as to not be worthy of grouping them under this umbrella.

And your judgments have no grounding in fact, context, and reality.


You're the one trying to essentially argue that Israel is systematically coercing this group of women, based on their ethnicity, to not be able to have kids against their will.

That's a huge argument, and the flimsiness of the OP is not sufficient enough to make that claim.

You can dodge and be "baffled" all you want, but the fact is -- you don't have any.

Young man, you don't have or want to have an issue with me. You have an issue with:

1.) Health Ministry Director General Prof. Ron Gamzu.

2.) Journalist Gal Gabby.

3.) Your understanding of Depo Provera.

4.) The testimonies of the 35 women interviewed by Gal Gabby, who said they were forced or otherwise coerced into taking the birth control drug.

5.) Your understanding of what "pre-judgment" means, given the fact that you're the only one here making claims without anything to back them up.

6.) Haaretz news.

...and I suggest you take your issues up with them.

I appreciate the desire to get to the truth of the matter, but you're forcefully and zealously ignoring the information that is actually there...and your commentary is than of an apologist rather than an objective entity as a result. Objectively speaking, we have a follow-up to a 5-year old story that confirms the existence of a program that government officials previously refused to acknowledge, along with women who have been specifically quoted as having been forced to take it against their will. There is no doubt about the purpose of the drug; it's not and was never given to "innoculate" anyone from anything. It's only purpose is to disrupt fertility and help women with painful menstrual cycles. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depo-Provera. The suggestion isn't that Depo is some dastardly drug; it's that it was given to women who would not have taken it if they had (a) know what it was and (b) were given an option. Again, according to these women, they were coerced into taking it. The problem is being forced to take it. You can believe it completely coincidental that 57% of all that had been using the drug were Ethiopian women if you want to. We'll be over here in reality.

So what is at question is whether or not you -- not anyone else here -- are willing to accept that there were women subjected to this drug repeatedly without clarity of purpose of the drug, as has been expressly acknowledged by Health Ministry Director General Prof. Ron Gamzu according to the most recent article. If you aren't willing to accept that, that's your problem, not mine. For many of us, these sorts of programs are old hat; Israel is not special in attempting this sort of practice or activity among first world nations, as we've discussed in this thread for some time. US, Sweeden, South Africa and a number of other nations have done similar, and usually much worse. Perhaps you need Israel to never do anything wrong? Meanwhile, the rest of us live in the real world where great leaders of great nations have done some pretty terrible things to minority groups just because they could. Things *just like this*.

That said, you and I both will enjoy reading more of the details surrounding Gal Gabby's report and how this program worked.

 

[nib95]

I've always said that like most things in the Middle East, this will be one more beast the US has helped breed that will come back to bite them in the ass. And it's happening before our very eyes. Israel could very well end up being the biggest mistake of all with respect to what the nation or government becomes or does, partly as a result of that support.

 

[DeadTrees]

I don't know the full situation around the issue, but it seems to be that these sort of things are difficult to overturn and clearly matters as sensitive and important as blood supply policy aren't dependent on the whims of what constitutes political correctness at the moment.

If the Ministry of Health perceived a threat from Ethiopians, why did they allow them to donate blood in the first place? And why was there no public discussion of said threat?

 

[Qazaq]

The more significant 'literal figure' is



Is this being made up? What's your basis for discounting this as unworthy of discussion or investigation?

I didn't say "unworthy" -- but it lacks hard numbers and context.

You took a group of women from one community in AFRICA to a developed nation; likely a city.

Of COURSE the birth rates are going to be affected. How about having access to modern birth control for the first time -- wouldn't that have something to do with it?

That's the thing. You're throwing out this figure and presupposing things, but we don't have any numbers. What exactly are the births declining from?

Furthermore, has no one in here realized that this isn't the worst thing imaginable?

Everyone is jumping on Nazi comparisons, ignoring that because we don't have hard numbers, you're looking at a group of women where it wouldn't shock me if they were having eight, NINE kids. Even six, seven? That's generally speaking a lot, for literally anyone, never mind people with almost no resources to handle them.

And then you transplant them into a society where, because they're starting from the bottom, they may have to work to feed their family -- except because they have so many kids, they can't leave, meaning they can't work, meaning they stay impoverished. Meaning this group of people that everyone is accusing the Israeli society of being racist against, they're actually not able to be helped because they're having so many kids.

Now which makes more sense -- that Israel is seeking to coerce these women into not having kids because they're evil and racist despite allowing this group entry? OR that something more grounded in actual REALITY is going on?

Again, everyone here is using "I'm American, I'm a westerner, I think Israeli society is racist" to jump to the most inflammatory conclusions instead of bothering to consider that other things might be going on.

Again, look at the facts here:

- Israel allowed these people to come in.
- Birth rates among this group have declined. (BUT THAT'S ALL WE KNOW. 57%...from what? Out of what?)
- A government worker has acknowledged that some Ethiopian women have been given this birth control without the women having full knowledge of what it was, and that they should stop.

That's it.

The article attempts to corroborate the narrative with thirty five "anonymous women", and a daycare center's observations.

And, no, thirty five women didn't say they were "forced and coerced" to take it. They've taken a quote from one or two women who said that.

That's the thing, you don't know what the 35 women actually said, or were asked, because no one cares about the real story, they just want to point and say "oh, look, Israel is fitting our presupposed assumptions of what we think they're doing!"

NO, it's not a good thing is women are being given a drug without them really understanding it fully. And yet, the doctor even acknowledges, there is a huge language barrier there, and this group of impoverished women are critically in need. But instead of acknowledging the likely reality --- that there is a lot of grey here, and that maybe some women were given something they didn't really understand, it wasn't because evil Israelis held a syringe to their faces and screamed at them in order to take it or be deported. I know, I know, but the daycare worker suggested otherwise!

 

[Qazaq]

And furthermore, you know why this riles up charges of anti-Semitism?

Not because people can't criticize Israel.

Not because supporting Israel means you hate Jews.

But Jewish people understand tactics that genuine anti Semites use in the reporting of events in order to advance an anti-Semitic line of thought.

I'm not accusing anyone or the OP of being anti semitic. What I AM saying is that, you have to be very careful to look at some of the meta-messages that this article is suggesting.

It's literally trying to suggest that there is a systematic government wide effort to racially discriminate against this minority. It makes them look very evil.

Does the Israeli government often do things to help their case? Of course not. But when articles attempt to construe things in a way that makes people seem evil, even when it doesn't really make sense -- that's when people need to be vigilant with the bullshit meter.

Again, Israel WELCOMED this group of people into their country -- likely in the face of ACTUAL racists and hard nationalists that have grown in force in the society.

Does it really make sense that the society at large isn't trying to help this group get on its feet and make them successful contributors to society? Or is it trying to demonize them?

I genuinely believe that, wherever the sentiments originate, people that originate sentiments in order to demonize Israelis into being evil people and evil society -- it IS anti semitic. And genuine anti semites know how to prey upon peoples' sense of social justice -- this is why the political left is so doubly susceptible to this kind of thing, I think, because the political left in America is so attuned to matters of race and discrimination -- in order to advance the real agenda being sought.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

They aren't comparing the birth rate of Ethiopian women to Israeli Ethiopians. The article specifically states a drop in the birth rate of Israeli Ethiopians.

57% is not the birth rate decline. Look, if you're not going to give the OP even a solid glance, I'm not doing this.

Edit 2: and Ethiopia isn't exactly Somalia. It has been a cultural center of Middle Eastern religions for some time. You make it sound like Israel is rescuing these women from the jungle or the some conflict diamond warzone.

 

[Qazaq]

It may amaze you, but discrimination against gay blood samples is deeply rooted in the ignorant belief that HIV was a "gay" disease. It's the exact same thing, a text book example of fear mongering against undesirable people.

I'm well aware of this, and I think it's disgusting.

What I was saying was not whether or not it's "just" and "moral" -- it's not, in my opinion.

Yet scientists tend to be at the forefront of gay rights and liberal minded thinking in general.

So if it's still in place here even in the US, does that mean there's genuine concern about gay blood in the US? I don't know. Again, I don't know the politics behind the issue.

What I AM suggesting is that, as is indicated by the ban still being in place, rules that doctors and hospitals use to determine blood giving policy might be insanely conservative just because they feel it's absolutely better to be safer than sorry.

Because for them, it's not about political correctness, or what is "fear mongering" or what is "undesireable" or not. It's about keeping the blood supply safe.

(And may I restate one last time that no, I do not think gays should be banned for giving blood, and yes, I am aware that black women tend to have the highest new cases of HIV infections.)

The point is: Israel may not be letting Ethiopians give blood, not because they're racist, but because doctors are ultra conservative about such things and having grown up impoverished in Africa, there might be legitimate medical concerns that doctors might have about this group that might need further time to be developed.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

They aren't comparing the birth rate of Ethiopian women to Israeli Ethiopians. The article specifically states a drop in the birth rate of Israeli Ethiopians.

57% is not the birth rate decline. Look, if you're not going to give the OP even a solid glance, I'm not doing this.

Just yield, man. It's not going to happen with this one.

 

[nib95]

I didn't say "unworthy" -- but it lacks hard numbers and context.

You took a group of women from one community in AFRICA to a developed nation; likely a city.

Of COURSE the birth rates are going to be affected. How about having access to modern birth control for the first time -- wouldn't that have something to do with it?

That's the thing. You're throwing out this figure and presupposing things, but we don't have any numbers. What exactly are the births declining from?

Furthermore, has no one in here realized that this isn't the worst thing imaginable?

Everyone is jumping on Nazi comparisons, ignoring that because we don't have hard numbers, you're looking at a group of women where it wouldn't shock me if they were having eight, NINE kids. Even six, seven? That's generally speaking a lot, for literally anyone, never mind people with almost no resources to handle them.

And then you transplant them into a society where, because they're starting from the bottom, they may have to work to feed their family -- except because they have so many kids, they can't leave, meaning they can't work, meaning they stay impoverished. Meaning this group of people that everyone is accusing the Israeli society of being racist against, they're actually not able to be helped because they're having so many kids.

Now which makes more sense -- that Israel is seeking to coerce these women into not having kids because they're evil and racist despite allowing this group entry? OR that something more grounded in actual REALITY is going on?

Again, everyone here is using "I'm American, I'm a westerner, I think Israeli society is racist" to jump to the most inflammatory conclusions instead of bothering to consider that other things might be going on.

Again, look at the facts here:

- Israel allowed these people to come in.
- Birth rates among this group have declined. (BUT THAT'S ALL WE KNOW. 57%...from what? Out of what?)
- A government worker has acknowledged that some Ethiopian women have been given this birth control without the women having full knowledge of what it was, and that they should stop.

That's it.

The article attempts to corroborate the narrative with thirty five "anonymous women", and a daycare center's observations.

And, no, thirty five women didn't say they were "forced and coerced" to take it. They've taken a quote from one or two women who said that.

That's the thing, you don't know what the 35 women actually said, or were asked, because no one cares about the real story, they just want to point and say "oh, look, Israel is fitting our presupposed assumptions of what we think they're doing!"

NO, it's not a good thing is women are being given a drug without them really understanding it fully. And yet, the doctor even acknowledges, there is a huge language barrier there, and this group of impoverished women are critically in need. But instead of acknowledging the likely reality --- that there is a lot of grey here, and that maybe some women were given something they didn't really understand, it wasn't because evil Israelis held a syringe to their faces and screamed at them in order to take it or be deported. I know, I know, but the daycare worker suggested otherwise!

I think your obvious bias is making for obtusely apologetic arguments from you.

First, Haaretz does not have a presupposed assumption of the situation at all, they are rely connecting the common sense dots based on research, findings, testimonies, investigative journalism and statements even from Israeli officials. Which is to say a hell of a lot more than what you have to go on for your silly assumption.

Let's look at the evidence here.

- Government official for the first time acknowledges the use of the drug, only after scrutiny at that.
- Officials had previously denied all knowledge and responsibility (sniff sniff)
- They only admit to this, and even go so far as to stop the treatment after condemnation and investigation by the Association of Civil Rights in Israel (getting smellier still!)
- Testimonies from 35 women claiming to be involved taken, could be used in a case.
- According to the programme that took the testimonies, many of the women were threatened or intimidated in to taking the drug.
- One eye witness account is quoted, though chances are there are countless more
- Mounting evidence and examples of racism towards Ethiopian Jews/Israelis, all the way to the top
- Humongous and unaccounted drop in the birth rate in Israels Ethiopian community

You only have to look at the facts and figures. The outcome is a fairly obvious one, and Hareetz, the multiple Human Rights groups involved, plus the Educational programme etc, have likely all come to the same logical conclusion, that there are some unscrupulous dealings going on that likely directly correlate with the sharp drop off in birth rates. Mal practise, negligence and out right heinous racism all plausible.


On a side note, this is why out right patriotism or support for ones nation or government is so dangerous. Israel needs to get rid of this disgusting right wing party and government ASAP, just a shame that's not happening since not only is the left fragmented, but the country is actually turning further right. Might even be making Republicans seem timid.

 

[Qazaq]

They aren't comparing the birth rate of Ethiopian women to Israeli Ethiopians. The article specifically states a drop in the birth rate of Israeli Ethiopians.

But again, we have no idea what each of these terms actually means.

"Israeli Ethiopians" -- that have been in the country how long? What is the article comparing these Israeli Ethiopians to -- prior generations of Israeli Ethiopians (except there probably weren't any), or actual Ethiopians? What generation are these women? How many kids have they had? How many kids do they have now? Since we tend to know that poverty means increased child birth, and poverty likes to trap people cyclically, do these women understand the predicament they're in of how having 6-7-8 kids is literally being detriment to themselves and society -- because Israel has to help care for all these infants and take responsibility for this group of people that they transplanted in? Are these women single? Do they have jobs?


Again, these are absolute BASIC questions in order to get a more full picture of what's going on.


All things not covered in this article.


But, please, let's carry on with the Nazi accusations. It's totally oh so the same thing.


Nevermind that if a government wanted to provide entry to tens of thousands of people, they likely had to consult MANY, MANY professionals ranging from doctors to sociologists, you name it, to help this group get on their feet.

But, no, Israel is evil and wants to see them suffer.

 

[Phoenician_Viking]

Jesus, really? You really think they can't live together? There is no way for them not to go to war over a flag and curriculum? There are no 2 states that are viable now, there is no viable Palestinian country. Israel has ensured it is going to be a one state solution of some kind.

There´s no way they can live together in one country. Too many ideological, religious differences. What Cromat is saying is correct. There´s no way they would agree on one flag, one language, one army, educational system, foreign diplomacy.

No, and not just because of these 2 things. Religion will always be the biggest obstacle to peace between the Palestinians and Israelis. Especially when you Israel, a whole country who is made based on religion. There´s no way in hell Israel will accept it, because Jews will become the minority in the land of milk and honey.

 

[beast786]

But when articles attempt to construe things in a way that makes people seem evil, even when it doesn't really make sense -- that's when people need to be vigilant with the bullshit meter.


I genuinely believe that, wherever the sentiments originate, people that originate sentiments in order to demonize Israelis into being evil people and evil society -- it IS anti semitic. And genuine anti semites know how to prey upon peoples' sense of social justice -- this is why the political left is so doubly susceptible to this kind of thing, I think, because the political left in America is so attuned to matters of race and discrimination -- in order to advance the real agenda being sought.

WHO HERE IS CALLING PEOPLE OF ISRAEL EVIL, WHERE IN OP OR ARTICLE DOES IT SAY PEOPLE OF ISRAEL ARE EVIL.

You in your head have some how vanished the line between People critiquing the act of goverment and some how linking it to the people.

NO ONE HERE OR OP is hating on JEWS or Jewish PEOPLE. The Few in goverment DOES NOT REPRESENT THE ALL OF JEWS IN ISRAEL. You are the ONLY ONE HERE who can't distinguished between the two.

Your throwing of anti-semantic accusation makes what people actually suffered from descrimination and ethnic cleansing at least from civil war to all the way of WW2 a great unservice.

With your philopshy anyone who criticizes Obama is some how racist against black people. We are discussing policies of the goverment NOT THE JEWISH CITIZENS OF ISRAEL. Know the difference

 

[Gentleman Jack]

That's the thing. You're throwing out this figure and presupposing things, but we don't have any numbers. What exactly are the births declining from?

They've declined 50% from what they were 10 years ago. That's a number that's not in dispute.

Furthermore, has no one in here realized that this isn't the worst thing imaginable?

What?

you're looking at a group of women where it wouldn't shock me if they were having eight, NINE kids. Even six, seven? That's generally speaking a lot, for literally anyone, never mind people with almost no resources to handle them.

Oh, you're crazy. Haha, never mind then.

 

[Qazaq]

- Government official for the first time acknowledges the use of the drug, only after scrutiny at that.
- Officials had previously denied all knowledge and responsibility (sniff sniff)

Did you ever stop to consider that, instead of it being a government conspiracy, what LIKELY happened is what ALWAYS happens with this kind of thing. It happens in America all the time.

That the government initially denied responsibility... because they had no idea?

And that only after being pressed to look into the issue more, because some women were indeed having problems, the government acknowledged the issue and asked for it to be stopped?

- Since, I guess health care is taken care of by the state, the government is ultimately responsible (or can be held) as to what those doctors do.
- A few doctors were administering this drug, and there were language barriers that prevented the women from fully understanding what it was -- and a few women are angry.

- They only admit to this, and even go so far as to stop the treatment after condemnation and investigation by the Association of Civil Rights in Israel (getting smellier still!)

But, you'll have to forgive me for how obvious this is, but that's their job. To investigate any incident that might have a racial bias.

That doesn't mean there's a government wide systemic effort, or even that that's what this group was even suggesting. It seems to be saying that, there might have been some doctors who were administering a drug to women who didn't really understand what was going on, and because of the circumstances involved, race plays a part into that, and this group has to look into it.

 

[Qazaq]

They've declined 50% from what they were 10 years ago. That's a number that's not in dispute.

Again, from what to what, and what does it mean?

You brush this off as if it's nothing. That's absolutely quintessential.

Are these people infertile? Are there no new kids? Who the fuck knows?! We don't know! You can't just throw out a percentage and call it a day! That's a huge opportunity to distort things.

WHO HERE IS CALLING PEOPLE OF ISRAEL EVIL, WHERE IN OP OR ARTICLE DOES IT SAY PEOPLE OF ISRAEL ARE EVIL.

And I am not calling anyone in here anti-Semitic.

The article literally attempts to paint the Israeli government as systemically discriminating against a minority group by coercing them to not have kids.

You don't think that's an attempt to them look evil? You don't think that the ulterior motive of the article isn't to make the Israeli government look wholly evil?

Anti semitic articles don't shout from the roof tops saying Israelis have big noses and are money-grubbers. They distort the reality of what is going on by painting a picture and withholding crucial details needed in order to advance an agenda that is distinctly anti-Israel.

Is that NOT what's going on in the article?

We literally don't have basic facts, obvious facts, and look what happened -- everyone accused the Israeli government of systemic racism and compared them to Nazs.

Oh, you're crazy. Haha, never mind then.

Uh, what's crazy about what I just said, exactly? Please, enlighten me.

 

[Phoenician_Viking]

lol, if these are the principle concerns for you with regard to a single state...lol.

how will they agree on a flag and anthem! KILL THE IDEA NOW. These are all matters that mature people can come to reasonable agreement on. The objective is much more important than any of those trivial issues, and people with a mind focused on coming together resolve such matters with reasonable speed.

People are not mature in that region. You have to learn and accept that. These matters might seem trivial to you, but by no means they are trivial to both people. It´s not only both of these people that have trouble with each other. I mean look at Spain, a European country which a part of it want their independence because of their heritage. Belgium as well. I came to realize that there´s no way that a country can function without having one absolute majority, whether ethnically, religiously, or culturally. If there´s a country have 50% of its population different than the other 50% population, you would bet your ass they want independence. 50% is being way too generous. Usually 30-40% is enough for people to start their own independence movement.

 

[nib95]

WHO HERE IS CALLING PEOPLE OF ISRAEL EVIL, WHERE IN OP OR ARTICLE DOES IT SAY PEOPLE OF ISRAEL ARE EVIL.

You in your head have some how vanished the line between People critiquing the act of goverment and some how linking it to the people.

NO ONE HERE OR OP is hating on JEWS or Jewish PEOPLE. The Fee in goverment DOES NOT REPRESENT THE ALL OF JEWS IN ISRAEL. You are the ONLY ONE HERE who can't distinguished between the two.

Your throwing of anti-semantic accusation makes what people actually suffered from descrimination and ethnic cleansing at least from civil war to all the way of WW2 a great unservice.

With your philopshy anyone who criticizes Obama is some how racist against black people. We are discussing policies of the goverment NOT THE JEWISH CITIZENS OF ISRAEL. Know the difference

It's quite scary that he equates criticisms of his government directly towards criticism of Israelis and even Jews. Supposedly a condemnation of heinous actions by Israeli officials, surmised by a logical amalgamation of evidence before us, is now anti semitic.

What fucking world...

 

[nib95]

Did you ever stop to consider that, instead of it being a government conspiracy, what LIKELY happened is what ALWAYS happens with this kind of thing. It happens in America all the time.

That the government initially denied responsibility... because they had no idea?

And that only after being pressed to look into the issue more, because some women were indeed having problems, the government acknowledged the issue and asked for it to be stopped?

- Since, I guess health care is taken care of by the state, the government is ultimately responsible (or can be held) as to what those doctors do.
- A few doctors were administering this drug, and there were language barriers that prevented the women from fully understanding what it was -- and a few women are angry.


But, you'll have to forgive me for how obvious this is, but that's their job. To investigate any incident that might have a racial bias.

That doesn't mean there's a government wide systemic effort, or even that that's what this group was even suggesting. It seems to be saying that, there might have been some doctors who were administering a drug to women who didn't really understand what was going on, and because of the circumstances involved, race plays a part into that, and this group has to look into it.

If you actually believe this, I have a bridge to sell you. The moment they were asked about this drugs use, and the sharp decline in birth rate figures, should have been plenty to send alarm bells ringing and for them to actually investigate what they're responsible for, the data before them etc.

Fact that they waited till immense pressure and wider spread scrutiny and evidence built up first, over the course of several years too, is damming in itself. Essentially they ignored all claims, questions and findings till the actual human rights groups did it for them, or to the point they could no longer claim innocence or ignorance without completely looking incompetent and despicable.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

Uh, what's crazy about what I just said, exactly? Please, enlighten me.

You've put 'hard numbers' in bold several times throughout your posts, placing empiricism above all, a stance that falls apart as soon as you begin pulling numbers out of your ass like 'it would not surprise me if these ethiopian women were having 6-9 kids and it's not the depo that's dropping their birth rate.'

You cannot challenge the sources listed by Dreams-Visions as being soft and full of holes and then start pulling numbers from thin air to support your alternate theory on the situation. That is pure, desperate crazy.

Also this:

Furthermore, has no one in here realized that this isn't the worst thing imaginable?

Does not sound like an opinion with a foundation in reason or the hard numbers you've clamored for.

 

[StopMakingSense]

Is that NOT what's going on in the article?

Haaretz News, home of anti-Semitism, you heard it here first, folks.

 

[beast786]

This is what you said before..

But when articles attempt to construe things in a way that makes people seem evil, even when it doesn't really make sense -- that's when people need to be vigilant with the bullshit meter.


I genuinely believe that, wherever the sentiments originate, people that originate sentiments in order to demonize Israelis into being evil people and evil society -- it IS anti semitic. And genuine anti semites know how to prey upon peoples' sense of social justice -- this is why the political left is so doubly susceptible to this kind of thing, I think, because the political left in America is so attuned to matters of race and discrimination -- in order to advance the real agenda being sought.

And this what you flipped in response...

And I am not calling anyone in here anti-Semitic.

The article literally attempts to paint the Israeli government as systemically discriminating against a minority group by coercing them to not have kids.

You don't think that's an attempt to them look evil? You don't think that the ulterior motive of the article isn't to make the Israeli government look wholly evil?

Anti semitic articles don't shout from the roof tops saying Israelis have big noses and are money-grubbers. They distort the reality of what is going on by painting a picture and withholding crucial details needed in order to advance an agenda that is distinctly anti-Israel.

Is that NOT what's going on in the article?

We literally don't have basic facts, obvious facts, and look what happened -- everyone accused the Israeli government of systemic racism and compared them

See the problem? you are inter changing the words (Israeli goverment / Israeli people) as if they are the same... THEY ARE NOT. critizing or even hating Israeli goverment doesn't mean you hate Jewish people, there is absolutely no way to make that conclusion, no matter how aggressive or false the accusation might be.

The left wing liberal doesn't oppose or say even make up stuff in papers or debates because they hate the right because they are white anglosaxson Protestant male. Please STOP playing the race card. you can make all your points against the OP and the article without this BS anti-simentic card.

 

[Qazaq]

It's quite scary that he equates criticisms of his government directly towards criticism of Israelis and even Jews. Supposedly a condemnation of heinous actions by Israeli officials, surmised by a logical amalgamation of evidence before us, is now anti semitic.

What fucking world...

So I'm curious.

You're given a picture. It paints the Israeli government of systemic racism and coercion against a group of people they welcomed into the country.

It pretty clearly doesn't have all the facts.

Let's look at the evidence here.

If you actually believe this, I have a bridge to sell you. The moment they were asked about this drugs use, and the sharp decline in birth rate figures, should have been plenty to send alarm bells ringing and for them to actually investigate what they're responsible for, the data before them etc.

Fact that they waited till immense pressure and wider spread scrutiny and evidence built up first, over the course of several years too, is damming in itself.

I mean do you literally not see you question not one thing, consider not one new angle, ask for not one extra bit of source, because you'd rather just assume there is a government wide coverup of racism and coercion?

This is what anti-Semitic reporting does. It very narrowly presents things because it wants you to construe them in a way that advances the line of thinking that they have crafted for you to think.

I guess I just find the lack of critical thinking extremely disturbing -- perhaps a bit prejudicial, I don't know where it comes from. Unfortunately, the Israeli government doesn't help themselves a lot, and they're to blame to.

But the way this shoddily presented article has overruled everyone's basic critical thinking, or even DESIRE TO ASK QUESTIONS AND GET A MORE FULL UNDERSTANDING, and see everyone just leap to universal disgust -- it's just really disturbing.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Complains about suppositions... invents 9 child birth rate for heavily religious minority.

Claims absurdity that Israel would partake in eugenics... introduces rationale that it's probably not a bad idea.

Totally being ignored in your anti-semite ranting is that the investigation and criticism is coming from INSIDE Israel. From Israeli citizens! Self-hating Jews. Obviously.

 

[nib95]

Qazaq, with all due respect, your kind, no matter where in the world or what country you're from, scare me. It's patriotism and an oft blind defence of country or government that comes over reason, logic and sometimes even moral compass. At least this is what I get from reading some of your posts.

By contrast, I'm based in the UK, where we take any and every opportunity to bash our government, it's officials and politicians, on all sides, all the bloody time. Just check out the Brit GAF political thread. We are a cynical bunch. And so we should be. And so should you.

 

[Qazaq]

You've put 'hard numbers' in bold several times throughout your posts, placing empiricism above all, a stance that falls apart as soon as you begin pulling numbers out of your ass like 'it would not surprise me if these ethiopian women were having 6-9 kids and it's not the depo that's dropping their birth rate.'

I don't understand. I'm not suggesting they DO have 6-9 kids. I'm saying that's certainly, CERTAINLY possible -- but that we don't know.

You cannot challenge the sources listed by Dreams-Visions as being soft and full of holes and then start pulling numbers from thin air to support your alternate theory on the situation. That is pure, desperate crazy.

It's not "alternate theory" -- it's basic questioning. Wanting basic facts. The fact is, any NUMBER of scenarios are possible -- because we don't have numbers.

Also this:

Does not sound like an opinion with a foundation in reason or the hard numbers you've clamored for.

What is wrong with it? Please, tell me what is wrong with the basic premise that impoverished women who might be having a ton of kids (because we don't fucking know) might be causing them to have trouble allowing the community to stabilize itself economically?

THEY ARE NOT. critizing or even hating Israeli goverment doesn't mean you hate Jewish people

No, but that's what a lot of anti Semitic reporting does.

Do you never stop to realize that, again, anti Semitic reporting that is most effective prays upon your sense of reason and rationale? "It's not Jewish people, it's the Israeli government! What the fuck, criticizing Israel doesn't mean I hate Jewish people!"

The article attempts to construe a narrative based on very light evidence that there is a systemic racism here.

Look, the poster even laid it all out:

- Government official for the first time acknowledges the use of the drug, only after scrutiny at that.
- Officials had previously denied all knowledge and responsibility (sniff sniff)
- They only admit to this, and even go so far as to stop the treatment after condemnation and investigation by the Association of Civil Rights in Israel (getting smellier still!)
- Testimonies from 35 women claiming to be involved taken, could be used in a case.
- According to the programme that took the testimonies, many of the women were threatened or intimidated in to taking the drug.
- One eye witness account is quoted, though chances are there are countless more
- Mounting evidence and examples of racism towards Ethiopian Jews/Israelis, all the way to the top
- Humongous and unaccounted drop in the birth rate in Israels Ethiopian community

This is literally hook line and sinker exactly what the article wants you to think. It literally feels like propaganda.

But it's not "anti-Semitic", it's just "wow, Israel is really fucking evil".

Whether or not it's "anti-Semitic", or just "anti government", how about you ignore whatever label you feel like getting riled up by, and realize that the article has a very, very clear agenda? And you disservice your own intelligence by not questioning what it's trying to accomplish and really say.

Complains about suppositions... invents 9 child birth rate for heavily religious minority.

We don't know.

Claims absurdity that Israel would partake in eugenics... introduces rationale that it's probably not a bad idea.

Again, inflammatory, ignoring what might actually be really going on, and how there's a lot of grey and other factors at work here.

But we don't know what the other factors are, because we're given such scant evidence.

 

[Qazaq]

Qazaq, with all due respect, your kind, no matter where in the world or what country you're from, scare me. It's patriotism and an oft blind defence of country or government that comes over reason, logic and sometimes even moral compass.

And the sad thing is, I say the same thing to you.

I'm not motivated by "blind defence" or "patriotism".

You're looking past all reason, logic, empathy, and moral compass in order to make a huge condemnation. You literally are willing to do a disservice to yourself and your intelligence because you'd rather not question.

There are so many holes in this, so many facts missing, so much context removed, so many leaps of logic taken, but you're willing to do that because you'd rather Israel were basically doing a eugenics program.

It saddens me.

And it saddens me that you're very essentially saying I'm okay with a racist eugenics program because I don't blindly believe everything I read, but god forbid I call anyone anything for sticking their fingers in their ears and going "lalala" in order to make really offensive claims.

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

Ashkenazis, indeed.

the fuckkk is going on hereee goood lawwwwwwwd

 

[Verano]

the fuckkk is going on hereee goood lawwwwwwwd

qazaq breaking the 5th wall

 

[Qazaq]

^^^ Not sure what that means.

 

[beast786]

I


No, but that's what a lot of anti Semitic reporting does.

Do you never stop to realize that, again, anti Semitic reporting that is most effective prays upon your sense of reason and rationale? "It's not Jewish people, it's the Israeli government! What the fuck, criticizing Israel doesn't mean I hate Jewish people!"

The article attempts to construe a narrative based on very light evidence that there is a systemic racism here.

Look, the poster even laid it all out:



This is literally hook line and sinker exactly what the article wants you to think. It literally feels like propaganda.

But it's not "anti-Semitic", it's just "wow, Israel is really fucking evil".

Whether or not it's "anti-Semitic", or just "anti government", how about you ignore whatever label you feel like getting riled up by, and realize that the article has a very, very clear agenda? And you disservice your own intelligence by not questioning what it's trying to accomplish and really say.

there is a titanic difference between anti-Semitic", or "anti government". Do you not understand that. This type of anti goverment agencies attacks are not just isolated to Israeli goverment .

this is here in United States ..

http://www.civilrights.org/archives/2010/10/1087-ny-racial-profiling.html

Study Shows Extensive Racial Profiling by New York City Police

does that mean this study (right or wrong) was trying to prove that ALL of Americans are prejudice people againt minorities ? Because the NY police department is racially profiling people?

Again, stop playing a victim. YOu are not a victim here, Jewish people are NOT victim here unless you are Ethiopian

 

[freenudemacusers]

the fuckkk is going on hereee goood lawwwwwwwd

You sound like an anti Semite

 

[Dreams-Visions]

there is a titanic difference between anti-Semitic", or "anti government". Do you not understand that. This type of anti goverment agencies attacks are not just isolated to Israeli goverment .

this is here in United States ..

http://www.civilrights.org/archives/2010/10/1087-ny-racial-profiling.html

Study Shows Extensive Racial Profiling by New York City Police

does that mean this study (right or wrong) was trying to prove that ALL of Americans are prejudice people againt minorities ? Because the NY police department is racially profiling people?

Again, stop playing a victim. YOu are not a victim here, Jewish people are NOT victim here.

You guys have more patience than I.

God speed with him. I don't think he wants to take your red pill.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

So you're going on record, right here on the Internet, and claiming that Haaretz is an anti-Israeli/anti-semitic propaganda rag? Just so we're clear.