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[GhostTrick]

Not really, the PC market is getting as crowded as mobile, or rather Steam is, the pc always was. And I think most of Renegade Kids games are already on Steam and haven't been very successful there.

To be honest, they're also kinda overpriced compared to their quality. I don't mean to say bad on Renegade Kids... but I didn't enjoyed most of their games. Quality wise, these aren't the kind of games you go on saying "wow, they're releasing a new game !!". Also, I think they've been kinda unfair with their mobile releases, considering how low priced they were. I remember Mutant Mudds being like 10€ everywhere.. but 2€ on iOS. Talking about devualating their own games...

Sure, the market is crowded everywhere, and if you want to exists, you need to be up there quality wise and/or price wise. And price wise, when you look at Steam, when you look at what you can have for 10€... you clearly don't look at Mutant Mudds or Xeodrifter. The market is harsh and it's up to you to make yourself a place with your own qualities.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

Jools likes to tweet snarky comments at reviewers that don't like his games, apparently. Renegade Kid has made some solid stuff, but they're definitely hit or miss and it feels like he's blind to the misses. Make a good game and it will probably sell okay.

Well, when this is how some reviewers treat your game, I'd be snarky too.

Not the best horror FPS ever? Sure. Deserving the score it got here? Not a chance.

 

[T.E.D]

I've played through Mario 2, 3, Mario World, Yoshi's Island 2, NSMB DS on my android smartphone in the last few months. If Nintendo had of offered such a service, they would have received my money. Not wanting my money, I was left to rely on some guy in his basement somewhere.

Shocking stuff.

 

[balohna]

Well, when this is how some reviewers treat your game, I'd be snarky too.

Not the best horror FPS ever? Sure. Deserving the score it got here? Not a chance.

Haha, that's actually the reviewer in question.

I still think it's bad form to go after reviewers.

 

[Oddduck]

I feel like most of the love for Renegade Kid is because Jools Watsham does a great job at interacting with Nintendo fans on Twitter, message boards, and social media. Jools Watsham comes off as a genuinely nice person, and I think people want to support him because he comes off as a humble person.

But would you consider any of Renegade Kid's games to be "great"? I don't mean "good". Because Renegade Kid makes a lot of good games.

I've been waiting for the day when Renegade Kid creates a truly great game; something that can stand next to titles like Shovel Knight, Cave Story, Guacamelee, Axiom Verge, you name it.

Serious question: Do people consider Dementium or Moon to be indie classics?

I'm asking this because people really hype up Renegade Kid as this important indie developer, but I'm still waiting for the day when Renegade Kid can release a project that really impresses the hell out of everyone.

 

[Lonely1]

I've played through Mario 2, 3, Mario World, Yoshi's Island 2, NSMB DS on my android smartphone in the last few months. If Nintendo had of offered such a service, they would have received my money. Not wanting my money, I was left to rely on some guy in his basement somewhere.

Shocking stuff.

Huh? What does this has to do with the topic at hand?

 

[UnemployedVillain]

I've played through Mario 2, 3, Mario World, Yoshi's Island 2, NSMB DS on my android smartphone in the last few months. If Nintendo had of offered such a service, they would have received my money. Not wanting my money, I was left to rely on some guy in his basement somewhere.

Shocking stuff.

Lol literally justifying the use of emulators and illegal roms

 

[T.E.D]

Huh? What does this has to do with the topic at hand?

Moving to mobile is in the thread title, and I'm just highlighting the fact that they're losing money by not putting more games out on mobile.

Lol literally justifying the use of emulators and illegal roms

I own all those games from years ago.

 

[jblank83]

But would you consider any of Renegade Kid's games to be "great"? I don't mean "good". Because Renegade Kid makes a lot of good games.

Mutant Mudds is great.

Xeodrifter at its core is solid. With more content it could have been great.

 

[Pikma]

I'm sorry to hear that but Renegade Kid's games are simply not for me, I've tried a pair of them in the past but nope, didn't enjoy them at all.

 

[Lonely1]

Moving to mobile is in the thread title, and I'm just highlighting the fact that they're losing money by not putting more games out on mobile.

So, read the OP perhaps?

 

[Ridley327]

I feel like most of the love for Renegade Kid is because Jools Watsham does a great job at interacting with Nintendo fans on Twitter, message boards, and social media. Jools Watsham comes off as a genuinely nice person, and I think people want to support him because he comes off as a humble person.

But would you consider any of Renegade Kid's games to be "great"? I don't mean "good". Because Renegade Kid makes a lot of good games.

I've been waiting for the day when Renegade Kid creates a truly great game; something that can stand next to titles like Shovel Knight, Cave Story, Guacamelee, Axiom Verge, you name it. Serious question: Do people consider Dementium or Moon to be indie classics?

I'm asking this because people really hype up Renegade Kid as this amazing indie developer, but I'm still waiting for the day when Renegade Kid can release a project that really impresses the hell out of everyone.

They seem to only churn out games that are "good enough". RK's games are fun and entertaining, but they don't really leave a deep lasting impression.

Now with most indies, I wouldn't normally complain about this, but Renegade Kid receives a lot more press, attention, and respect than most indies do. So I'm trying to understand where all the hype for Renegade Kid comes from?

The short story is because they were one of the few dedicated western third-party devs on Nintendo handhelds (along with the likes of WayForward and 5th Cell) and helped to fill a niche by doing more mature titles, like Dementium, which helped make them stand out in comparison to virtually every developer on Nintendo handhelds with the exception of n-Space. As you said, it helps that Jools is ridiculous hands-on with the community, but the bigger thing was that they were making games that no one else was doing.

That being said, the shift to more typical indie fare seems like a pretty big about face in general. It's not to say that they suddenly started making awful games (far from it, really), but when you're known for one thing that no one else is doing and you're suddenly working on stuff that everyone else is doing, it's a bit jarring, and I don't think they've quite find their footing yet. I also don't think it helped them when the Cult County Kickstarter happened, given how badly run it was and the initial middle finger they gave to Nintendo handheld fans after promising it as their next big horror FPS on the 3DS, only to offer initially on anything but. That was a big misstep in my book, and that's something that's going to take some time to recover from.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

They originally got attention because they were a small 4-person team making graphically great DS games. This continued with the 3DS because they made a really good 2D platformer and a good puzzle game with pretty unique multiplayer--they were applauded because they showed that they could be pretty versatile.

 

[cw_sasuke]

All I know is that it did better than the Sony versions and the Steam version. I don't know how well it did.

Yeah no surprise here. Doubt they sold much on PS4 platforms to begin with.

I own all those games from years ago.

You own the games and the hardware yet you prefer to play platformers without buttons on a smartphone? Hmm okay...

 

[T.E.D]

You own the games and the hardware yet you prefer to play platformers without buttons on a smartphone? Hmm okay...

To each their own, I guess. I actually don't mind using virtual buttons and you'd be surprised how simple it is to play 2D platformers with them. I mean it's essentially "Press A to jump" when it comes to Mario games. Better than playing Candy Crush on the bus home.

 

[Lijik]

Yeah, well, the bigger the competition gets, the harder it is to get noticed. Their games are fairly niche from my point of view so it doesn't matter if they are high quality. It's simply not everyones cup of tea. Releasing a high quality game simply isn't enough these days.

Releasing a 2d platformer on a nintendo console is considered niche now?

 

[blu]

Releasing a 2d platformer on a nintendo console is considered niche now?

I actually think RK have (almost) always been on the money in terms of audience on nintendo platforms. That's why it took some serious missteps for Xeodrifter to not be a commercial success on the 3ds & wiiU. And it's a genuinely good metroid clone. Short, sure. In this regard, overpriced for some part of the audience. But still a good game.

So a competent metroid clone underperformed on two nintendo platforms, one of which is a 50M base. Just let that sink in for a second.

 

[@MUWANdo]

Maybe a dementium game on steam would have taken advantage of the horror game trend a few years back.

Renegade Kid didn't own the Dementium IP until this year, that's why they tried to kickstart a spiritual successor.

There's a port of Dementium 2 on Steam but I have no idea who made it and it looks to be a very basic up-port of the DS game, which was never going to impress anyone.

So a competent metroid clone underperformed on two nintendo platforms, one of which is a 50M base. Just let that sink in for a second.

"Competent" simply isn't good enough in a marketplace that isn't hurting for metroidvanias, many of which are known entities at friendlier price points.

It also came out in only one region, so the install base is closer to 15M than 50M.

 

[watershed]

I think Renegade Kid has struggled this gen in overall. Mutant Mudds was a hit partly because it is a good, cohesive game with a clear and appealing aesthetic and partly because it released on the eshop at a time when the 3ds eshop was starved for content.

Since then I feel like they've ported/remastered a lot of their ds games for the 3ds like Bomb Monkey, Moon, and Dementium, or have priced themselves out of people's wallets. Treasurenauts is taking forever and, for a game that is supposed to be short but high on replay value, I bet it too will be overpriced.

I like some of their stuff and I wish them well, but I think Jools and company have made a lot of mistakes or at least should not be surprised by their low sales.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

Bomb Monkey wasn't a DS game and wasn't overpriced. It's 3 bucks

Treasurenauts isn't the same game anymore. It's a Metroidvania with multiple characters. The game changed direction last year.

 

[NathanS]

"Competent" simply isn't good enough in a marketplace that isn't hurting for metroidvanias, many of which are known entities at friendlier price points.

Heck gamasutra had an artical on that aspect of trying to sell an indie game today.

‘Good’ isn’t good enough - releasing an indie game in 2015

http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/Dani...d_enough__releasing_an_indie_game_in_2015.php

It’s no longer enough to make a good game. Good games are plentiful, and the rate at which they come out is constantly accelerating. Consumers are absolutely spoiled for choice, good and great games abounding. Good marketing isn’t enough either – Games with way more marketing spend than yours also come out every day.

 

[@MUWANdo]

Bomb Monkey launched at $5 and it's still overpriced at $3--it may not be "expensive" in real terms but it's a generic puzzle game with limited features and no real hook or gimmick that differentiates it from the zillion other puzzle games available for 3DS, so if you want a charge a "premium" price you need to justify it in some way.

 

[SaintMadeOfPlaster]

The guy makes mediocre games. It's not the market's fault if nobody wants to play them.

 

[Claude Augario]

Mutant Mudds is the only Renegade Kid game I've played and I enjoyed it enough to 100% it. I was interested in Xeodrifter but $15 was just a little too high of a price for Petitroid.

 

[Terrell]

It seems to me like Renegade Kid couldn't compete with the growing competition for mindshare in the indie space on Nintendo hardware and preferred when they were one of few "major players" in the Nintendo indie game scene. But that can affect everyone to different degrees. Even Rovio is hurting and betting all their chips on a movie to keep interest in Angry Birds so they don't fade into the background.

Wait, which apps have ended support since November?

I think the issue with mobile is that a lot of the views on mobile being this big open market are wrong. I've noticed with my friends that they tend to play only one or two mobile games. It's not like Wii, DS, 3DS, PC, PS4, Xbox One, etc, where the attach rate is high. The big wide audience seem to play one or two games(Clash of Clans and Candy Crush) but play them to an almost insane degree.

It's true. Japan's mobile market is considered the healthiest in the world, with year-over-year revenue growth. But the part they don't tell you is that around 75% of that revenue growth is coming from 2 FRANCHISES.

All of the Japanese developers fleeing to mobile are in for a rude awakening when they realize the actual health of the mobile market they're banking on and the amount of real effort you need to put in to make a success.

But it's true almost everywhere else, as well. A handful of F2P games and subscription-service apps skew the perception regarding the actual health of the games market on mobile platforms. It's not to say there's no money to be made, but you have to bank on lower revenue until you hit the big-time.

 

[watershed]

Bomb Monkey wasn't a DS game and wasn't overpriced. It's 3 bucks

Treasurenauts isn't the same game anymore. It's a Metroidvania with multiple characters. The game changed direction last year.

I seem to remember Jools saying Bomb Monkey was a demo for a ds game they never released or something like that. I feel like it was definitely a ds game and not a game designed for the 3ds. I could be wrong though.

 

[blu]

"Competent" simply isn't good enough in a marketplace that isn't hurting for metroidvanias, many of which are known entities at friendlier price points.

That was not merely a metroidvania, though, it's an honest-to-goodness Metroid 1 clone.

It also came out in only one region, so the install base is closer to 15M than 50M.

That's exactly my point - the customer base where the game could sell was 50M. Alas.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

Not a RK title.

Heist is Image and Form. Judging by the scores and success of the first game, I think Heist will do fine. SRPGs do well on Nintendo platforms anyway.

Mutant Mudds Super Challenge will be the big test. I think being part of the Nindies@Home thing, having special launch price and being a crossbuy title will help with it's adoption. Pushing it to January is also a pretty good idea.

My point is SW:H will be of an undoubtedly high quality.

RK's games are... not, in my experience. Masquerading as Gameboy Color games is cute, but Gameboy Color games aren't terribly fun to play in 2015.

 

[Lonely1]

Xeodrifter is a good game. :/

 

[clevbrowns94]

I think he's making a valid point about the market size of the 3DS vs. mobile. I get that. At the same time, Renegade Kid's output hasn't been spectacular lately. I played Moon Chronicles for basically free with the humble bundle. It was boring and even as a remaster, it looked like crap. People say Xeodrifter was good, but I hear the length is short, so that turned me off. I look forward to Treasurenauts though and hope it still comes out.

 

[blu]

Xeodrifter is a good game. :/

That's what I'm saying. It just needed to be on more markets/regions, earlier. With a tad of a lower price, for those who'd otherwise complain of its length (no complaints here).

 

[@MUWANdo]

That was not merely a metroidvania, though, it's an honest-to-goodness Metroid 1 clone.

"Metroid 1 clone" is a euphemism for "half-baked"--they don't look the same beyond "8-bit", they don't handle the same, they're far different in terms of scope, ambition and imagination, etc. The devs even promoted this game as a tiny little thing you'd beat in an hour or two, but they still somehow thought they could get away with pricing the game higher than many other games that are a better take on the same thing at a much lower price (including two actual Metroid games!).

Mutant Mudds is the same: it has all the elements required for a competent platformer but absolutely nothing more; it's almost as if they deliberately calculated the bare minimum amount of work they needed to do in order to get people to buy the games, like an underachieving student who meticulously concocts a way to pass a class while doing as little work as possible.

 

[@MUWANdo]

Off the back of this blog post, here's another interview about the sales of their games: http://wegotthiscovered.com/gaming/exclusive-interview-jools-watsham-talks-totes-goat-renegade-kid/

WGTC: Dementium Remastered, a game that I enjoyed my time with, and you recently said it had a “low sales performance.” How disappointing has the game been sales-wise? It seems like you would have a good set of data from Moon Chronicles as to what sales would be like.

JW: The sales of Dementium Remastered have been very low so far. Much lower than I expected. My expectations were based on how our other games have sold, and as such were already quite conservative. I am very surprised that they are lower than my conservative projections. We will still continue with releasing the game in Europe and also release Dementium II Remastered, but the sales results definitely make us pause with future development on 3DS beyond Mutant Mudds Super Challenge and Treasurenauts, which is very unfortunate. In an ideal world, I would love to continue developing games for 3DS. It is my personal favorite console to play games on, but if we can’t generate enough revenue from our games to cover the cost of 4 people with no office space, then something must change.

WGTC: Looking back, do you think a different price point or date would’ve garnered more sales? As far as eShop releases go, Dementium Remastered was one of the more hyped releases in 2015.

JW: I do wish that we were able to release the game on Halloween, but that was not possible, unfortunately. I think the price is fair for the game. We put a lot of time, effort, and financial investment into the remastering of Dementium, and as such it is a game that I am very proud of. It looks great, it plays great, and it is a unique experience for the 3DS. There are many reasons that it hasn’t sold much, but it is what it is. We must move on.

WGTC: Treasurenauts has been in development for quite some time. What has been the reason for the long development cycle? Is it just wanting to prioritize other projects, or has Treasurenauts been difficult to fully realize?

JW: The reason Treasurenauts has been delayed is due to cashflow. We must have money coming in so we can continue making games. This means that sometimes we have to reorganize our efforts in order to release a game sooner, and sometimes we take on work-for-hire, which results in the our other projects to be delayed.

WGTC: You engage fans quite often on social media, and often poll fans’ feelings on matters such as if there is a demand for your games in Europe. Do you feel like this has backfired in the past? Have you found that people are more willing to say yes to potentially buying something, and then not actually make the purchase once they get what they said they wanted?

JW: The polls and questions I pose on Twitter are not an exact science. I always take the results as a small sampling of a specific audience. Anecdotal at best.

WGTC: Renegade Kid always seems to have 2 or 3 games in development at all times. How do you manage juggling that many projects around, and why does it work better for the studio than just focusing on one game at a time?

JW: I would prefer we focus on just one game at a time, but that has not proven to be financially successful for us – therefore requiring us to develop more than one in order to keep rolling along.

 

[watershed]

I'm sorry for Jools and RK that Dementium Remastered hasn't sold well, but there's nothing about that game that would lead me to believe it would sell well.

 

[blu]

"Metroid 1 clone" is a euphemism for "half-baked"--they don't look the same beyond "8-bit", they don't handle the same, they're far different in terms of scope, ambition and imagination, etc. The devs even promoted this game as a tiny little thing you'd beat in an hour or two, but they still somehow thought they could get away with pricing the game higher than many other games that are a better take on the same thing at a much lower price (including two actual Metroid games!).

Mutant Mudds is the same: it has all the elements required for a competent platformer but absolutely nothing more; it's almost as if they deliberately calculated the bare minimum amount of work they needed to do in order to get people to buy the games, like an underachieving student who meticulously concocts a way to pass a class while doing as little work as possible.

I understand your point but I'm perfectly happy with both Xeodrifter and Mutant Mudds /shrug

 

[Kouriozan]

I'm really sad the indies aren't doing too well either.
I understand Moon bombing since it was an incomplete DS port but Xeodrifter was nice, didn't buy on 3DS/Wii U since I just got it for free on PS4 though.

 

[tanasten]

Yep, that's it. I think that they did a good start on the 3DS beacuse the game matched the audience and it wasn't so crowded. But they got out of the route with dementiun and moon chronicles.

The one hat I expected better result was Xeodrifter. I don't get why it didn't get good sales. MAybe because the game got on other platforms before?

 

[@MUWANdo]

Bear in mind we don't know how well any of these games have sold in terms of raw numbers, we only know how successful they were relative to each other and that they're currently not selling well enough to support a 4-man studio that works remotely, whatever that means.

Here's a graph Jools posted earlier this year that shows just how much better Mutant Mudds did than anything else they'd released until that point:

 

[Memory]

I like the support they give to Nintendo but their games are just not that good.

I hope they find success with mobile and I hope they finally bring out Treasurenaughts.

 

[DangerMouse]

It's true. Japan's mobile market is considered the healthiest in the world, with year-over-year revenue growth. But the part they don't tell you is that around 75% of that revenue growth is coming from 2 FRANCHISES.

All of the Japanese developers fleeing to mobile are in for a rude awakening when they realize the actual health of the mobile market they're banking on and the amount of real effort you need to put in to make a success.

But it's true almost everywhere else, as well. A handful of F2P games and subscription-service apps skew the perception regarding the actual health of the games market on mobile platforms. It's not to say there's no money to be made, but you have to bank on lower revenue until you hit the big-time.

Yeah, this is probably why some like Square-Enix indeed feel like they are truly about-facing and trying to diversify back out somewhat again (while obviously still doing plenty of mobile).

 

[FreedomFighter]

I'm sorry for Jools and RK that Dementium Remastered hasn't sold well, but there's nothing about that game that would lead me to believe it would sell well.

I want to play it. I just don't want to pay $14.99 for it. I think it'd be better received at a price of $7.99 or so, putting it in impulse buy territory.

 

[Aesnath]

I picked up xeodrifter, really enjoyed it--but yeah it was a bit brief for the money.

That being said, I'm sad when a competent developer (who really needed just a little more to make a great game) leaves for mobile.

 

[Exile20]

I really wanted to buy one of his games but none appeal to me. Sorry his games have no sold much since mutant mudds but they are just not for me.

Image and Form is the indie studio that takes my money. Steamworld Dig was awesome and Steamworld Heist is even better.Great artstyle, incredible gameplay and not too expensive.

I think it comes down to what games appeal to the 3DS fanbase.

 

[whiterabbit]

Xeodrifter is a good game. :/

I bought it and couldn't figure out where to go at the start. I'll have to try again and watch a video or look at a FAQ if I still can't. I liked Mutant Mudds a lot although I didn't enjoy it as much when I tried to replay it.

I really wanted to buy one of his games but none appeal to me. Sorry his games have no sold much since mutant mudds but they are just not for me.

Image and Form is the indie studio that takes my money. Steamworld Dig was awesome and Steamworld Heist is even better.Great artstyle, incredible gameplay and not too expensive.

I think it comes down to what games appeal to the 3DS fanbase.

I&F is a great studio! Really enjoyed both those games a lot.

 

[sörine]

Bear in mind we don't know how well any of these games have sold in terms of raw numbers, we only know how successful they were relative to each other and that they're currently not selling well enough to support a 4-man studio that works remotely, whatever that means.

Here's a graph Jools posted earlier this year that shows just how much better Mutant Mudds did than anything else they'd released until that point:

Would Mutant Mudds DX refer to only the Wii U version since the 3DS release of DX was a free patch for MM buyers and not sold standalone? If so then it paints a pretty dire picture for RK's Steam and PSN sales given the Wii U port was the second best selling version.

Actually maybe we could use Steamspy figures to estimate ballpark minimums for some of these then?

 

[Colonel Mustard]

I'm really sad the indies aren't doing too well either.
I understand Moon bombing since it was an incomplete DS port bit Xeodrifter was nice, didn't buy on 3DS/Wii U since I just got it for free on PS4 though.

?

This isn't 'indies', this is just Renegade Kid.

 

[DangerMan]

Moon Chronicles is an awful game that is simply not any fun to play. Dementium Remastered is much better but is priced too high. Sometimes people need to accept that if their products aren't succeeding it is due to being overpriced or the product just not being any good.

I will still buy Dementium 2 Remastered when it launches on 3DS provided it is not priced higher than Dementium Remastered.