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[Knux-Future]

I preordered Killer is Dead then started actively avoiding all news about it because well... It's Suda51, it looked cool and I wanted it. You're video broke my impenetrable information blackout shield and I have since cancelled my preorder. Fuck, I was really looking forward to this as well.

Watching yet another example of scared little children yelling at someone because "feminismer am attack videogames" is depressing, next weeks tropes vs women reaction is probably going to be even worse.

//Edit

I enjoy Regular Features as well your videogamer stuff, so thanks for the content.

you see this right here is why people can't dicuss this topic clearly.

It always ends in one side beign called children or the other beign called white knights.

It's really fucking sad.

As for the topic, like I said I get it but I just don't feel like this is the game to "attack" so to speak. It's parody, it's satire, it's silly. Is it perverted? hell yeah. But while it may not be the intention of some, it seems like beign perverted is somehow automatically bad or childish. The latter being rather funny because a lot of videogames by nature are in fact childish.

I can't help but shake the feeling that the real issue is the seemingly need to have gaming accepted by the masses as serious business. and perhaps the best way is to virtually cut down on anything that might be seen as childish or "wrong". I'm reachign but that fucking sucks. I hate the idea that everythign needs to be super serious or realistic....Everything now must carry the weight of TLOU because reasons...Variety is what makes this industry great and the constant shaming of weird shit because it is some kind of ism. pisses me off.

I hate to say it but it also seems like Japanese games get "attacked" more harshly. bu-but Tomb Raider...that was also silly but that at least litterally had their devs sayign shit like "we must protect herrrr".

a better example would be God of War and it's sex minigames...why isn't that "bad"? or even talked abotu more? Is it because it is a staple? is it because it is rated M and generally over the top? Then why the fuck isn't this game "let off the hook" for the same reasons? I'm not saying Matt is doing this but It's a feeling I get in general lately. (JRPG threads having a lot of "just make em less Japanese" as a solution, bashing of ANY anime artstyle, the whole Dragon's Crown shit, Nintendo...).

Vent over, but yeah TLDR; don't attack people and expect them to give a shit what you think and attack the games that truly deserve it....

 

[CaptainGyro]

More likely it's insinuating that if you get her drunk you can sleep with her. Still offensive!

Well it does increase the chances many times. Ever been to a party?

 

[Weezin]

The solution to the portrayal of women in videogames as sex objects is obvious... You simply say that the main character is a womanizer!

Sorry ladies -- we had to design you as a vehicle for teenage erections because this character we invented had to be a pervy sleazeball! You can't say anything about it though... because art.

haha this is amazing.

 

[dark_prinny]

I'm speechless.

 

[JoeFenix]

I champion plenty of stuff, it's just that most of it goes unwatched. When the reaction to stuff like this is THIS fucking mental, it's clear that there's a massive problem at hand.

Sorry if it's a topic that you find tedious, but for my generation it's hardly a surprise: I grew up getting so much shit for being a gamer, and now we're almost at the point where it's accepted as being something that normal people do there are people actively trying to ensure that gaming remains a closed circle. As someone who was excluded from society for most of my life because of my unusual hobby, it's a topic that I hold pretty close to my heart. That's the long and short of it, and I suspect that's the case for almost everyone else who occasionally brings up stuff like this. There are a group of people actively working to undo everything we've spent our lives working towards, and obviously that's going to be met with a response.

I appreciate that it can be tiresome, though, and that's why I don't let it dominate the majority of what I do - primarily I make entertainment, with an emphasis on comedy stuff. It would be easier to ignore stuff like this entirely, but leaving a small group of nutters to themselves in the hope that they'll just go away isn't clever: We did the same thing in the UK with UKIP - a faintly racist political organisation that no-one paid any attention until the point where they actually started gaining power. I don't blame people for ignoring topics like this, but dismissing them as a waste of time doesn't seem helpful either.

Another big argument is that it doesn't matter because "it's just videogames", which is fair enough to an extent - I don't wave the flag for the GAMES ARE ART crowd, but I certainly think it's reductionist to shrug the whole medium off as a silly waste of time. Everything we do in life is fundamentally pointless if you look at it from a wider scale, so by the same merit everything is worth being observed from some sort of worthwhile perspective. "Who cares?" is a pretty limp response, and one that works with almost anything. If you're going to live your life with that mantra, I can't imagine why you'd ever get out of bed.

So this is what it comes down to, feeling embarrassed about your hobby for years and wanting to ``elevate`` games to prove to the world that you weren`t doing something questionable all these years.

Sorry but it`s totally fine for certain games to be juvenile and low brow, just like certain movies are. If you`ve followed most of Grasshoppers output you would know what kind of game you`re getting into beforehand. Here`s a hint, it`s not going to be a game you can show off to your acquaintances as some kind of flag bearer for the medium`s maturity.

That Gigolo mini-game seems pretty harmless honestly, from what I`ve gathered the women that you `target` are the ones who are actively showing interest in your character. It seems like they find him attractive and want to be seduced, like a Bond type thing. Sure it`s silly and not reflective of reality but that`s the whole point no? You can say it`s not to your taste and made you uncomfortable around your colleagues at work or something but to go on about how his career is over, that`s pretty crazy honestly.

I pray to god you never have to review something like Hyperdimension Neptunia. Now THOSE games are embarrassing to me and you know what? I`m glad they exist because clearly someone likes them! Video games are many things and that`s just the way it should be, stop being so self conscious about what you enjoy, probably a good place to start.

 

[deli2000]

I'm speechless.

at what?

 

[rvy]

In the US. I didn't say it was causing it directly but it can reinforce attitudes that already exist. I'm done with this though. Keep on marginalizing half the population of the world, buddy.

Now, see here kids, learn from this guy. This is how you attempt to win an argument when you have nowhere-else to go after the asinine points that you have posted throughout the previous 3 pages. Make use of some sort of statistic with no further info about it to really drive your point across and paint the other poster to be a piece of shit human being.

And this is your key to success at winning an argument in the internet.

Study it, Learn from it. Enjoy your posting.

So, in summary, he has no proof that video games have any effect on this issue. He comes up with "statistics" to make his point more valid, while offering no other info than "1 out of 5 women have been assaulted" (turns out it's in the US) and he insinuates that I marginalize women.

Did you even see the post I replied to. I'm not talking about violence in general. He quite literally said that we thought slicing a half-naked woman is OK.

quoting the post because who the fuck reads anything on NeoGAF

Then his point is shit and my point still stands. So address that one if you'd like.

 

[LTWheels]

Keep up the good work Matt. Been enjoying Videogamer's content since I discovered it a month ago.

 

[rdrr gnr]

haha this is amazing.

It's not.

 

[Weezin]

Now, see here kids, learn from this guy. This is how you attempt to win an argument when you have nowhere-else to go after the asinine points that you have posted throughout the previous 3 pages. Make use of some sort of statistic with no further info about it to really drive your point across and make the other post seems like a piece of shit human being.

And this is your key to success at winning an argument in the internet.

Study it, Learn from it. Enjoy your posting.

So, in summary, he has no proof that video games have any effect on this issue. He comes up with "statistics" to make his point more valid, while offering no other info than "1 out of 5 women have bene assaulted" and he insinuates that I marginalize women.



Then his point is shit and my point still stands. So address that one if you'd like,

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/15/h...-in-us-survey-report-sexual-assault.html?_r=0

 

[Hot Coldman]

oh yeah and there is like a million other games with weird portrayals of women before you reach the clearly abnormal KiD - games that don't see a woman in skimpy clothing or with unnecessary boob jiggle *cough*projectxzone*cough* as a stylistic choice, but an industry standard

going for the Suda game is such a dumb move because Suda has ZERO influence

also you're gonna piss of a lot more people going after the JRPGs and that's always funnier

 

[Vice]

Well it does increase the chances many times. Ever been to a party?

Uh, that's rape.

The solution to the portrayal of women in videogames as sex objects is obvious... You simply say that the main character is a womanizer!

Sorry ladies -- we had to design you as a vehicle for teenage erections because this character we invented had to be a pervy sleazeball! You can't say anything about it though... because art.

Womanizing is a common personality trait in media though and has its place in games, like any other medium.

 

[Mr.Monitor]

I've seen the other aspects of the game being played, but not had hands-on myself. To be honest though, that doesn't get it out of jail. This game is being almost entirely marketed with sex: http://youtu.be/K82vCvGzMAQ

I'm not saying that's morally wrong, but it earns you fuck-all respect from me. Marketing dictates the way a game is sold, and they've literally decided to target wankers. Slow clap, game over.

Almost all of the sexualized marketing you're referring to is for Japan, though. I can hardly think of a product that isn't marketed with sex there, especially a videogame. I'm not saying that's an excuse for the marketing, but your problem should be with the Japanese market, not the game itself. In the west, most of the promo material has been pretty tasteful, focusing on the dialogue, gameplay, and action. Either way, judging a game based on the marketing isn't that great of an idea either. Look at Bioshock Infinite, its marketing campaign opted in to target dudebros and a mass audience, despite aspiring to deliver a more thought provoking experience.

Spoiler

I don't think it really did, but some would disagree with me.

The justification was that it had to sell as many copies as it could. This is true for any game, especially for a company with a pretty poor track record in sales such as Grasshopper. What I'm asking is for you to judge the game for what it actually is, rather than make an early judgement call (Especially such a harsh one. Suda 51's career is over? Come on.) based off of a silly minigame and promo material for a market much different from ours.

 

[rvy]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/15/h...-in-us-survey-report-sexual-assault.html?_r=0

Tough shit, this is what you should have provided when you used it as proof of anything.
Too late now.

ctrl + f "video games", no such thing came up in the article. Sorry.

 

[Heavy's Sandvich]

Tow the party line guys, we need gaming to be respected.

 

[$h@d0w]

Jam_Sponge - welcome to the reality of how games are marketed to different regions. May I present Valhalla Knights 3.

Western trailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGV7TIg6TEc

Japanese trailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhBSVj9Zwjs

 

[Net_Wrecker]

a better example would be God of War and it's sex minigames...why isn't that "bad"? or even talked abotu more? Is it because it is a staple? is it because it is rated M and generally over the top? Then why the fuck isn't this game "let off the hook" for the same reasons? I'm not saying Matt is doing this but It's a feeling I get in general lately. (JRPG threads having a lot of "just make em less Japanese" as a solution, bashing of ANY anime artstyle, the whole Dragon's Crown shit, Nintendo...)

Exactly. And on top of that, God of War is on the front lines of gaming in terms of popularity and they've released, what, like 8 games in that series already? The women in those scenes are quite literally used as objects for sexploitation and so the player can receive a health boost. That's the only reason those segments were there, and they were even easier and carefree in the way the game went about presenting it to the player than Gigolo Mode looks. Or how about Mass Effect, a series that's supposed to represent the cutting edge of storytelling in gaming sexing up character appearances throughout the trilogy and handing out achievements like candy for getting characters into your bed? But Killer Is Dead, a game that's much more outwardly sophomoric and sexual in its tone and marketing, and which won't even get a tenth of the recognition those games get is in the wrong here?

 

[CmdBash]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/15/h...-in-us-survey-report-sexual-assault.html?_r=0

So a survey that only contains statistics representing 0.005% of the United States' population is accurate?

 

[NotLiquid]

The solution to the portrayal of women in videogames as sex objects is obvious... You simply say that the main character is a womanizer!

Sorry ladies -- we had to design you as a vehicle for teenage erections because this character we invented had to be a pervy sleazeball! You can't say anything about it though... because art.

Good job - this is the kind of non-constructive attitude that stifles freedom and video game creativity, not improves it.

For that matter, the character trope is commonplace in just about any medium, and like any medium, a video game can be about anything. Killer7 was a game that had far more offensive and controversial material than this is in themes and depiction (seriously - I wonder if half of the people posting here even know what Suda got away with putting in that game), and that game was fantastic. That's not an admission that art isn't existing to be criticized, but that this kind of argument that simplifies the issue ignores context, and that kind of context is crucial for the depiction and why it exists - which from what I'm seeing is fitting for the character's being and his arc.

 

[Weezin]

Exactly. And on top of that, God of War is on the front lines of gaming in terms of popularity and they've released,what, like 8 games in that series already? The women in those scenes are quite literally used as objects for sexploitation and so the player can receive a health boost. That's the only reason those segments were there, and they were even easier and carefree in the way the game went about presenting it to the player. Or how about Mass Effect, a series that's supposed to represent the cutting edge of storytelling in gaming sexing up character appearances throughout the trilogy and handing out achievements like candy for getting characters into your bed? But Killer Is Dead, a game that's much more outwardly asinine and sexual in its tone and marketing, and which won't even get a tenth of the recognition those games get is in the wrong here?

God of War sex mini-games are pretty awful too. At least in Mass Effect you are talking to the characters and developing an actual relationship, rather than just staring at their crotch or boobs.

 

[fabricated backlash]

I think you're missing the issue here. The problem with this mode isn't the sex. It's how the 'seduction' of the woman is performed... by being disrespectful and pervy.

Yeah, I've never heard of women going to clubs and bars to find a potential sex partner for the night. And lo and behold, never have I seen women accepting gifts or being flattered by stares. It might come as a shock but not all women mind guys being up front about their intentions. Likewise not all men dream of women as an object to be conquered, but some do.

If you really believe that this game is trying to depict all women like that, then I don't know what to tell you. Maybe to get out and actually get some perspective on the issue instead of acting as if this was the downfall of morale and decency.

If you have a problem with the depiction of seduction, or checking out a potential sex partners physique and imagining what's beneath that dress/jeans/shirt, then I don't know what to tell you other than to loosen up a bit and stop being a prude.

The whole hang up here seems to be amplified by the Gigolo glasses which really aren't much more than a funny visual representation of what a lot of guys and women already do in their fantasy when checking out other peoples body.

 

[Domstercool]

The solution to the portrayal of women in videogames as sex objects is obvious... You simply say that the main character is a womanizer!

Sorry ladies -- we had to design you as a vehicle for teenage erections because this character we invented had to be a pervy sleazeball! You can't say anything about it though... because art.

I nearly lost an eyeball, because I face-palmed myself so hard.

"had" ? I'm sure there are more male characters that aren't pervy sleazeball in video games.

 

[Coxy]

God of War sex mini-games are pretty awful too. At least in Mass Effect you are talking to the characters and developing an actual relationship, rather than just staring at their crotch or boobs.

someone is gonna post those ass pics

 

[dark_prinny]

at what?

Stupid articles. Stupid people.

 

[CaptainGyro]

Uh, that's rape.

I have no idea if you're joking but I hope so

 

[Rehynn]

From what we've played of the rest of the game, the characters aren't portrayed differently. It's the classic Japan-style stuff that many will excuse on that account, but I'd advise any white males who openly accept all cultural differences to go on holiday to North Africa.

Fair enough, I'll judge for myself when I get the game.

I see what you mean about Mad Men, but this is a conscious design choice rather than background aesthetic - if it was just busty women strutting about I personally wouldn't give much of a fuck; it's the creepy seduction mini-game that I take issue with. Context is everything - I thought Catherine was awesome, for example - that game had a massively pervy streak, but used that to do something really interesting with the narrative. This just feels... hollow. Other people might not feel the same, and I'll be interested to see how it's received.

The thing is, there is a subtext to it in Mad Men, and it is a very conscious design choice in the show as well - the witty/offensive remarks help create an atmosphere where men unknowingly objectify, insult, hurt women. The audience is meant to find it at least somewhat repulsive. But what if Gigolo Mode is meant to be perceived as hollow, ridiculous and caricaturistic? It certainly seems that way to me.

In terms of getting blown out of proportion, I definitely agree - I think a lot of that has come from the fact that it quickly created an internet explosion. The video was only ever intended as a blunt opinion piece, but the size of the reaction that followed has given it more gravitas than it ever really deserved. I don't mince my words when it comes to opinions, but I also don't expect my opinions to be treated as fact: Many seem to think that I treat my opinions as being infallible just because I speak with conviction. I don't, I'm just a passionate dude. If you don't agree with me, that's cool - I just draw a line at death threats and homophobic nonsense.

And that is fine - I don't even think "It's YouTube, what did you expect?" is the right response. That shit is not OK, regardless of where it pops up.

 

[NotLiquid]

God of War sex mini-games are pretty awful too. At least in Mass Effect you are talking to the characters and developing an actual relationship, rather than just staring at their crotch or boobs.

Well hey, good thing that it's already been explained that it isn't what you're doing in Gigolo Mode. Staring at crotch and boobs kills your chances at succeeding.

 

[Jam_Sponge]

Okay Matt, wait a sec. You said that Videogamer has a "preview copy". Okay, that's fine. What does this preview copy entail? Did you just play Gigolo Mode and nothing else? Is the preview copy only Gigolo Mode? I find it a bit odd that you'd get a preview copy of KiD and the first thing you'd do would be to jump into Gigolo Mode and not give the main game a go first.

I'm one of your biggest fans on GAF (I'm the dude who made that "Matt Lees is awesome" thread a while back). I'm just trying to understand what your hands-on experience with the game was, exactly.

Yo! It was the usual stuff - a slice of the final game. So you had a couple of missions, and one of the Mondo mode Gigolo bits. It wasn't just that, no, but for obvious reasons that I've hopefully explained - that was the bit that really jumped out, and personally soured the whole thing for me.

But hey, opinions are subjective - and many other people might not feel the same. I'm just a bit aghast to see that people don't see why what I've described might be a bit fucking weird and creepy. It's not even about gender, it's just a deeply uncomfortable and oddly transaction-based representation of sex. If it was the other way around, I'd still be freaked out. There's a chance that the full game has a smarter point to make about this - which could be why the XSEED employee waded in feeling fairly miffed - but I'd struggle to see a way in which that sour taste could be effectively washed away by narrative. If the rest of the game is amazing stuff I can see why some people might be able to overlook it, but personally I'll probably give it a miss. I'd hoped that the Marketing for KiD was just nonsense that didn't relate to the game, but from what I've seen that just isn't the case.

Cheers for the reasonable question and response, though, and thanks again for watching and sharing my videos. I promise I won't turn into one of those journos who spends half their time campaigning for change, but I think the reason people like my stuff is because I pour every ounce of myself into it - that means that every now and then, you might get a bunch of stuff you don't like so much.

 

[cutmeamango]

It is like a MTV VJ and an old SexEd teacher had a baby.

 

[rvy]

Yeah, I've never heard of women going to clubs and bars to find a potential sex partner for the night. And lo and behold, never have I seen women accepting gifts or being flattered by stares. It might come as a shock but not all women mind guys being up front about their intentions. Likewise not all men dream of women as an object to be conquered, but some do.

If you really believe that this game is trying to depict all women like that, then I don't know what to tell you. Maybe to get out and actually get some perspective on the issue instead of acting as if this was the downfall of morale and decency.

If you have a problem with the depiction of seduction, or checking out a potential sex partners physique and imagining what's beneath that dress/jeans/shirt, then I don't know what to tell you other than to loosen up a bit and stop being a prude.

The whole hang up here seems to be amplified by the Gigolo glasses which really aren't much more than a funny visual representation of what a lot of guys and women already do in their fantasy when checking out other peoples body.

You... I like you. I'm happy you didn't go to sleep.

 

[Codeblue]

I champion plenty of stuff, it's just that most of it goes unwatched. When the reaction to stuff like this is THIS fucking mental, it's clear that there's a massive problem at hand.

Sorry if it's a topic that you find tedious, but for my generation it's hardly a surprise: I grew up getting so much shit for being a gamer, and now we're almost at the point where it's accepted as being something that normal people do there are people actively trying to ensure that gaming remains a closed circle. As someone who was excluded from society for most of my life because of my unusual hobby, it's a topic that I hold pretty close to my heart. That's the long and short of it, and I suspect that's the case for almost everyone else who occasionally brings up stuff like this. There are a group of people actively working to undo everything we've spent our lives working towards, and obviously that's going to be met with a response.

I appreciate that it can be tiresome, though, and that's why I don't let it dominate the majority of what I do - primarily I make entertainment, with an emphasis on comedy stuff. It would be easier to ignore stuff like this entirely, but leaving a small group of nutters to themselves in the hope that they'll just go away isn't clever: We did the same thing in the UK with UKIP - a faintly racist political organisation that no-one paid any attention until the point where they actually started gaining power. I don't blame people for ignoring topics like this, but dismissing them as a waste of time doesn't seem helpful either.

Another big argument is that it doesn't matter because "it's just videogames", which is fair enough to an extent - I don't wave the flag for the GAMES ARE ART crowd, but I certainly think it's reductionist to shrug the whole medium off as a silly waste of time. Everything we do in life is fundamentally pointless if you look at it from a wider scale, so by the same merit everything is worth being observed from some sort of worthwhile perspective. "Who cares?" is a pretty limp response, and one that works with almost anything. If you're going to live your life with that mantra, I can't imagine why you'd ever get out of bed.

Hey Matt. I just wanted to express how cool it is of you to come out and defend your opinions.What I'm about to post is sort of off topic, so feel free to ignore it.

First, I found your overall criticism fair, if a little condescending towards the end when you started talking about respectability.

Second, Perhaps you could learn something from Suda in this case. Stop giving a damn what other people think.

We can't have the medium held hostage by people who would judge the entire community because of a handful of examples. People will still find something to hate even if you personally decided which games got made and what they could include. This perception will erode naturally as games grow in popularity, and diversity is necessary for that growth. As someone who isn't white (which carries a much larger stigma than being a gamer, it turns out), I've learned that I can't be held responsible for the shortcomings and bigotry of other people.

Critique the game all you want, but if it negatively impacts the hobby as a whole, that's a failure on the part of people who would generalize and jump to conclusions, not Suda or those who defend/enjoy his games, and we shouldn't have to compromise someone's creative vision to appease people who are not worth paying attention to.

 

[rdrr gnr]

Just watched the video. It wasn't unreasonable until the last minute minute or so. Turns out that if you want to elevate the medium itself -- you have to elevate the criticism (read: critics) of it. I'd say that the game and the critique (much like the Vanillaware controversy) are deserving of each other as both are somewhat vapid and expected. I will say that at least tonally the video itself (not the subsequent discussion) is quite different from the Tomb Raider nonsense. Many unhappy with the TR situation were plainly calling for censorship in wanting the entire scene removed based on their arbitrary objections. This, thankfully, did not come off as that.

 

[Tomat]

Yo! It was the usual stuff - a slice of the final game. So you had a couple of missions, and one of the Mondo mode Gigolo bits. It wasn't just that, no, but for obvious reasons that I've hopefully explained - that was the bit that really jumped out, and personally soured the whole thing for me.

But hey, opinions are subjective - and many other people might not feel the same. I'm just a bit aghast to see that people don't see why what I've described might be a bit fucking weird and creepy. It's not even about gender, it's just a deeply uncomfortable and oddly transaction-based representation of sex. If it was the other way around, I'd still be freaked out. There's a chance that the full game has a smarter point to make about this - which could be why the XSEED employee waded in feeling fairly miffed - but I'd struggle to see a way in which that sour taste could be effectively washed away by narrative. If the rest of the game is amazing stuff I can see why some people might be able to overlook it, but personally I'll probably give it a miss. I'd hoped that the Marketing for KiD was just nonsense that didn't relate to the game, but from what I've seen that just isn't the case.

Cheers for the reasonable question and response, though, and thanks again for watching and sharing my videos. I promise I won't turn into one of those journos who spends half their time campaigning for change, but I think the reason people like my stuff is because I pour every ounce of myself into it - that means that every now and then, you might get a bunch of stuff you don't like so much.

I don't think anyone has a hard time understanding why the mode would be seen as creepy. There's a difference between "Wow that's really creepy" and "Suda stop making games because I don't like this."

 

[deli2000]

Then his point is shit and my point still stands. So address that one if you'd like,

You defended his point and now that i've called you out you're saying it's shit.
Sorry that I mislead you to thinking I was leading an attack on you though. Poor wording from my part.

Cheers for the reasonable question and response, though, and thanks again for watching and sharing my videos. I promise I won't turn into one of those journos who spends half their time campaigning for change, but I think the reason people like my stuff is because I pour every ounce of myself into it - that means that every now and then, you might get a bunch of stuff you don't like so much.

Going to requote this in order the shut the 'lol games journalism' types up

I don't think anyone has a hard time understanding why the mode would be seen as creepy. There's a difference between "Wow that's really creepy" and "Suda stop making games because I don't like this."

He didn't say Suda should stop making games. He said that he can't be taken seriously anymore. And that's fine, I don't think Suda takes himself seriously anyway. So why the fucking outrage?

 

[Vice]

I have no idea if you're joking but I hope so

Legally it is. Going out for drinks and finding someone is pretty common but legally, in the U.S. it counts as rape. I don't think it's that cut and dry, sometimes men and women just want to get wasted and screw, but on Gaf someone was bound to mention it so I figured it may as well be me.

 

[Codeblue]

He didn't say Suda shpuld stop making games.

"Turn in your gun and badge".

 

[rvy]

You defended his point and now that i've called you out you're saying it's shit.
Sorry that I mislead you to thinking I was leading an attack on you though. Poor wording from my part.

No, I really didn't get it. I took his "slice her up" as "slice anything up". My mistake.
I didn't think that it mattered an assumed he was talking about the violence in general, he could have said "him" or "it" just as easily. Maybe that wasn't what he meant.

Again, I continue to say that it blows my mind how looking at boobs is offensive, but murdering hundreds of things isn't.

 

[fabricated backlash]

You... I like you. I'm happy you didn't go to sleep.

I was, I just woke up again, just to find this thread still filled with people preoccupied with feeling embarrassed for their hobby, or displaying a shocking lack of social knowledge.

Furthermore what I find depressing is how any depiction of women/sex/seduction/ is immediately intended to portray all fucking women on this planet.

Guess what, some women like Fifty Shades of Grey, others find it perverted. This has nothing to do with sexism, it's pure offended morals.

Being offended at something doesn't give you an argument, it just simply means you're offended by something. Instead of dismissing anyone that doesn't share your morals as sexists and perverted is not a discussion, nor is it an argument. It's an accusation based on the flimsiest of reasons: Being offended that your moral values aren't shared by others.

I leave it to actual women to tell me what they find sexist, as it's not my job to decide that for them. I've grown up with tons of women and girls around me, and they are more than capable to decide themselves how they want to be seduced, how they want to deal with casual sex, how they deal with stares and what flatters them/makes them horny.

 

[deli2000]

"Turn in your gun and badge".

He's saying that as a metaphor that he is no longer on the list of respected game people.

Good try though.

 

[SoCoRoBo]

Exactly. And on top of that, God of War is on the front lines of gaming in terms of popularity and they've released, what, like 8 games in that series already? The women in those scenes are quite literally used as objects for sexploitation and so the player can receive a health boost. That's the only reason those segments were there, and they were even easier and carefree in the way the game went about presenting it to the player than Gigolo Mode looks. Or how about Mass Effect, a series that's supposed to represent the cutting edge of storytelling in gaming sexing up character appearances throughout the trilogy and handing out achievements like candy for getting characters into your bed? But Killer Is Dead, a game that's much more outwardly sophomoric and sexual in its tone and marketing, and which won't even get a tenth of the recognition those games get is in the wrong here?

The GoW sex minigames did get a lot of attention when the games came out, I've seen them mentioned numerous times as examples of the juvenile attitude games have to women. It's just one article about Killer is Dead dude, don't make this out to be a disproportionate reaction. And yeah, it is in the wrong. It's also annoying that the man who brought us the fantastic Eastern and Western representational deities clash in a nightmarish dreamworld is now gleefully making this crap.

 

[Weezin]

I leave it to actual women to tell me what they find sexist, as it's not my job to decide that for them.

And yet you apparently won't listen to them when they address this particular issue!

 

[RpgN]

This is the issue that we're really staring at, here. People are willfully ignoring the actual message and running off with their own agenda: That people shouldn't take tits out of games. In the video I even made a specific point about the fact that this *wasn't* the issue I was discussing, but hey - internet.

Thanks for coming here and replying back to others.

I have to say, as a female, I really appreciate your views and your message on the matter. A message that is often ignored on purpose.

 

[Net_Wrecker]

God of War sex mini-games are pretty awful too. At least in Mass Effect you are talking to the characters and developing an actual relationship, rather than just staring at their crotch or boobs.

You didn't have to move the camera to stare at the women because EA and Bioware made damn sure to give you great camera angles on Miranda's ass, or introducing characters like Jack who barely has a top on, or dolling up Ashley who's supposed to be the tough female soldier of your squad, or turning the ship's AI into a walking sex doll. All of this in Videogame's Leading Franchise In Smart, Mature Interactive Storytelling™. But I guess that's okay because you have empty conversations with them carefully choosing blue or red dialogue options- whichever will get you that sweet sweet cutscene and achievement that proves to the world how much game you can talk.

Gigolo Mode is a controllable Porky's shower scene. It's a small (optional?) part of a completely over the top game in every facet- from violence, to narrative, to environments, to characterization, and yes, to sexuality. It's fine if this isn't your cup of tea, but let's not act as if the game, Grasshopper, or Suda are in any way advocating or condoning this behavior, or putting out a serious title that's pushing for female representation in gaming to remain solely as sexual window dressing.

 

[Tomat]

He's saying that as a metaphor that he is no longer on the list of respected game people.

Good try though.

Oh, okay. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[theSlacker]

that's not a correlation, though...it's a direct misrepresentation about a minigame you've attempted a detailed analysis of. if she doesn't "like you more" for oggling, but rather less, that sort've context is important to bear in mind before, say, putting together a skit about it.



we're still talking about an entertainment piece where a killer is known for philandering with any woman he chooses. are elements of sexploitation suddenly not okay for you when Golgo 13 likewise doesn't speak?



here, you've acknowledged a wrongful assumption, but because 4 others followed it, you're putting that on Suda as well. This isn't helping your narrative.



Were you entirely absent for No More Heroes 1-2? Shadows of the Damned? Lollipop Chainsaw? because you're, again, pointing at a minigame to justify the claim that a dev now panders only to "fap-happy teens", despite years of distinct themes & tropes (luchadores, religion, the smiths etc) as well as some questionable design choices. Pardon the dichotomy here, but the case you're making seems to either illustrate a lack of following Suda's prior titles or a strong desire to harp on an angle you found (and again, clearly didn't fully understand) from his most recent one.



Again, it's rather hard to take you seriously here - these later paragraphs show a desire for an honest conversation, but you just got done talking about "calling out" a niche developer for doing something not unlike many of his prior works, deeming him a "sell out" then unironically speaking on people up their own ass.



this here is a clear false dichotomy, as you're painting many of those disagreeing with you of clearly being on team misogyny. there are those of us who likewise identify with feminism, but do not act surprised when niche devs known for certain tropes illustrate them in their next title - i likewise do not watch Rambo flicks and expect a balanced view on 3rd world politics. Picking & choosing one's battles is important, and even when planting one's flag on something like this happens, i don't think "KILLER IS DEAD - AND SO IS SUDA'S CAREER" is a reasoned way to go about this.



no pity for those who read youtube comments - if i put my hand in a shark tank, i certainly have the right to feel pain, regret and a host of other emotions. surprise, upon being bitten, is not one of those.



there's no need for martyrdom in the final act. and yes, it's clear you got an agenda after tossing up your factually incorrect video, because that way neither your opinions or said facts can somehow be wrong, as the goalposts have been moved. it's not about an optional minigame you found distasteful; it's about gamers who enjoy Suda's offerings taking part in a culture that doesn't want females enjoying these games, a claim I find a bit offensive but honestly? If I'm going to really indulge any of the multitude of gendered topics in gaming right now, this isn't one of them.

Which is to say: at the root of it, I agree with you on the problems of gender & gaming, it's something that's a hot topic now because it's a discussion long overdue. However, over-emphasizing bits like this - particularly while ignoring context - is something I believe is done at the expense of the topic at hand, hence the logical assumptions regarding your questionable intent. if you find that displeasurable, though I would personally say to highlight a better example, at the least, strengthen your argument & do so professionally, there's no reason to use insults or make it about you in your closing bits.



to be clear: you canceled your preorder because this guy wrote a piece on an optional minigame he had to be corrected on regarding several of its points...what did you make of Lollipop Chainsaw?

And this is what goes unresponded to.

 

[Omega_Tom_Hanks]

The guys who defend this pathetic bullshit are the exact same type who will be cranking it whilst playing this game.

I don't care about the arguments for or against the realities of the situation 'gigilo mode' is supposedly imitating, it's just totally unnecessary. It serves no thematic purpose, at it's worst it's incredibly embarrassing and potentially offensive, and at best it's providing base titillation for basement dwelling perverts and hentai aficionado's.

Love you guys, byeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

 

[fabricated backlash]

And yet you apparently won't listen to them when they address this particular issue!

I listen to them, but I won't extrapolate one womens offended values as being applicable to all women. I don't suffer from the delusion that women are a single definable group of people that all share the same traits and values.

This messianic mission that people still see in feminism has long been challenged and even abolished by feminist scholars around the world, as it became more and more obvious that there can't be one unified approach to deal and "emancipate" women.

It's even worse when it's done from a puritanical and prude standpoint as it denies women their right to free expression of their sexuality.

The guys who defend this pathetic bullshit are the exact same type who will be cranking it whilst playing this game.

I don't care about the arguments for or against the realities of the situation 'gigilo mode' is supposedly imitating, it's just totally unnecessary. It serves no thematic purpose, at it's worst it's incredibly embarrassing and potentially offensive, and at best it's providing base titillation for basement dwelling perverts and hentai aficionado's.

Love you guys, byeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

Oh boy, you sure showed us pervs. What an amazing rebuttal, filled with accusations, defamation and a brilliant display of condescending ass hattery.
Next time maybe form an argument first, or if you deem it below your level to participate, just don't bother mingle with the peasants.

Post of the century right there.

 

[Tomat]

The guys who defend this pathetic bullshit are the exact same type who will be cranking it whilst playing this game.

I don't care about the arguments for or against the realities of the situation 'gigilo mode' is supposedly imitating, it's just totally unnecessary. It serves no thematic purpose, at it's worst it's incredibly embarrassing and potentially offensive, and at best it's providing base titillation for basement dwelling perverts and hentai aficionado's.

Love you guys, byeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

Well there you have it folks. Thread complete. Everyone go home.

 

[Knux-Future]

The guys who defend this pathetic bullshit are the exact same type who will be cranking it whilst playing this game.

I don't care about the arguments for or against the realities of the situation 'gigilo mode' is supposedly imitating, it's just totally unnecessary. It serves no thematic purpose, at it's worst it's incredibly embarrassing and potentially offensive, and at best it's providing base titillation for basement dwelling perverts and hentai aficionado's.

Love you guys, byeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

Great post bro.

You really showed those pathetic losers by posting about how lame they are on a videogame forum. You are so much better than they are.

Seriously, if this is the best you can do then why bother.

it's why these threads go on for so long.

twats like you

 

[RpgN]

"Turn in your gun and badge".

Really? I mean REALLY?

Surely you could see he was speaking figuratively and that it just implies that he doesn't agree/approve/respect what he saw of the game.