Support NeoGAF

[deli2000]

Yes it is.

You want equality? Ask DICE some hard questions about not allowing users to choose female models in BF4. Don't jump on the crazy, over-the-top and nonsensical Suda game for allowing players to stare at *gasp* boobs. How offensive is that!? I mean, slicing people and monsters up for 30 mins straight is a-OK, but God help us all if we look at boobs and crotches. Can't have that.

lol, "journalism".

Yeah, people who think staring at a womans tits instead of talking to them is slightly wierd are literally hitler. amirite?

 

[Weezin]

Ok, before going to bed I was just thinking that the outrage was originating from a weird idea of asexual feminism that borders on puritanical nonsense, but now I feel confident in saying that it's probably more a case of people being giant prudes, afraid of any notion of promiscuous sexuality.

With a healthy mix of double standards thrown in for good measure to single out video games as not eligible to deal with "controversial" themes like casual sex... dear lord, when did easy sex become a controversial matter, what is this, the 1930s?

Anyway, those aspiring to spread feminism should be aware that not everything that offends their moral compass is also sexist or problematic to others.

I think you're missing the issue here. The problem with this mode isn't the sex. It's how the 'seduction' of the woman is performed... by being disrespectful and pervy.

 

[abadguy]

The problem here isn't that it has sexual content it's that it's incredibly creepy and gross. If you can't comprehend of sexual content outside of creepily objectifying women then you lead a very, very sad existence.

It's a guy looking at a woman's underwear how "awful". Now if he pulled out his sword and split her in half with blood and entrails flying everywhere, acceptable!

I think you're missing the issue here. The problem with this mode isn't the sex. It's how the 'seduction' of the woman is performed... by being disrespectful and pervy.

Kinda figured that was the point in this case, seeing how the character himself is meant to be a womanizer.

 

[rvy]

Yeah, people who think staring at a womans tits instead of talking to them is slightly wierd are literally hitler. amirite?

urrite acshually

I think people who are perfectly fine with extreme violence only to be offended when the main character of a game stares at women's boobs and crotches have their priories all fucked up. But maybe that's just me.

 

[Jam_Sponge]

I see much more of a problem with the refusal to let users choose female models in FPS such as Battlefield and Carl on Duty than Suda giving you mini-games to stare at boobs.

That's a problem too, but saying that problem A doesn't matter because problem B hasn't been solved is a pretty effective way of ensuring that nothing ever happens. It's similar to the suggestion that Suda 51 has been doing this for years, so it must be OK now because it was OK then.

On the surface these seem like logical arguments, but they're pretty fucking weak to say the least.

 

[Net_Wrecker]

Lastly, let's talk about agendas. My agenda is simple: Let's make games better.

And that's fine, but you're picking a fight with the wrong game. This is like watching a Russ Meyer movie and coming to a realization that film needs to get better because a lot of it is immature, and pervy, and exploitative despite "2001: A Space Odyssey" releasing in the same year as "Vixen." The Last of Us was released only a little over a month ago. That game was a big step in narrative maturity and the portrayal of female characters in gaming on a scale grander than anything Killer is Dead will achieve, critically or commercially. It's okay if Killer Is Dead, a game that will only reach a portion of the audience something like The Last of Us will, is a little more risque and non-politically correct. It's a ridiculous mini-game housed in a game reveling in its own ridiculousness.

Killer Is Dead doesn't speak for the medium, nor does it do anything so revolting that it or Suda 51 need to become the posterchild for "Why Gaming Needs To Get Better."

 

[deli2000]

It's a guy looking at a woman's underwear how "awful". Now if he pulled out his sword and split her in half with blood and entrails flying everywhere, acceptable!

No it wouldn't be. Who said that's OK? Stop using straw-man arguments.

 

[Weezin]

It's a guy looking at a woman's underwear how "awful". Now if he pulled out his sword and split her in half with blood and entrails flying everywhere, acceptable!

So your point is that because games are violent it's okay to leer at women without their permission? You sure have funny logic. Are you also looking for a game that lets you segregate black people? (don't worry it's not violent)

 

[CaptainGyro]

I'm completely baffled on how the "selections of the things these girls like" were "downright absolutely fucking offensive" . It's offensive to suggest that the girls like flowers...because how? It's offensive to show that a girl likes alcohol because why exactly? If it's offensive, is it also considered offensive to show a girl at a bar in the first place? I mean doesn't that imply that she likes alcohol already? How is offensive towards women to show that the girls like money? WHO THE HELL DOESN'T LIKE MONEY?

Horrible article ( or video whatver)

 

[flotilla]

Ok, before going to bed I was just thinking that the outrage was originating from a weird idea of asexual feminism that borders on puritanical nonsense, but now I feel confident in saying that it's probably more a case of people being giant prudes, afraid of any notion of promiscuous sexuality.

With a healthy mix of double standards thrown in for good measure to single out video games as not eligible to deal with "controversial" themes like casual sex... dear lord, when did easy sex become a controversial matter, what is this, the 1930s?

Anyway, those aspiring to spread feminism should be aware that not everything that offends their moral compass is also sexist or problematic to others.

I think the real problem with this situation isn't so much about prudishness. It's really the fact that Suda has been riding a wave ever since Killer 7 in which a lot of people view him as a brilliant avant-garde auteur. Maybe it's time to re-evaluate that. That doesn't mean saying that his work has no place in the world or even that it's wrong for someone to enjoy it. It means maybe Suda fans should stop trying to defend what he does as 'subversive' or 'satire' and just accept it for what it is: pulpy, juvenile entertainment.

 

[Jam_Sponge]

I think you're missing the issue here. The problem with this mode isn't the sex. It's how the 'seduction' of the woman is performed... by being disrespectful and pervy.

This is the issue that we're really staring at, here. People are willfully ignoring the actual message and running off with their own agenda: That people shouldn't take tits out of games. In the video I even made a specific point about the fact that this *wasn't* the issue I was discussing, but hey - internet.

 

[homulilly]

Pseudo-feminists barking at the wrong tree again, like always.

As a male I care about women's rights, I care about their place in today's society, that is to say that they need to be treated as equal, they need to be paid the same for their jobs, they need to have the right to choose between abortion or not (look at the recent events in the US, THAT is worthy of outrage), they need...a thousand things more, especially in some countries.

The roots of the problems are here. So if you consider yourself a feminist, get into politics, not video games.

The trend that consist in criticizing every choice made by developers/designers regarding their female characters is getting very old, very quickly and is now totally counter-productive.
Unless there is some blatant, stupid and gratuitous anti-feminism in a game, stop over-reacting and diluting a true important message on trivial subjects. If you're not ok with some choices, don't play it and get overt it.

I really do not need to hear some dude who "cares about women's rights" lecture me how to be a "real" feminist. You know what gets old even faster than criticizing the choices of game designers regarding their female characters? Game designers being creepy fucks.

 

[BanGy.nz]

I preordered Killer is Dead then started actively avoiding all news about it because well... It's Suda51, it looked cool and I wanted it. You're video broke my impenetrable information blackout shield and I have since cancelled my preorder. Fuck, I was really looking forward to this as well.

Watching yet another example of scared little children yelling at someone because "feminismer am attack videogames" is depressing, next weeks tropes vs women reaction is probably going to be even worse.

//Edit

I enjoy Regular Features as well your videogamer stuff, so thanks for the content.

 

[Acquiescence]

So now that the flash-in-the-pan controversy surrounding Dragon's Crown and its denizens gigantic boobs has evaporated into an already long-distant memory, the feminist clique need a new monthly non-issue cause to keep that bandwagon chugging along at a steady pace.

Killer is Dead - I CHOOSE YOU!

Seriously, if this game came out a couple of years ago, nobody would've batted an eyelid.

 

[Weezin]

I'm completely baffled on how the "selections of the things these girls like" were "downright absolutely fucking offensive" . It's offensive to suggest that the girls like flowers...because how? It's offensive to show that a girl likes alcohol because why exactly? If it offensive, it also considered offensive to show a girl at a bar in the first place? How is offensive to show that girls like money? WHO THE HELL DOESN'T LIKE MONEY?

Horrible article

I know women who are put off by guys giving them flowers because it's so cliche and they don't even like flowers. It's a stereotype. Also money insinuates gold digger. Man, I really have to explain these things to people? =\

 

[rvy]

No it wouldn't be. Who said that's OK? Stop using straw-man arguments.

He's not straw-man arguing shit. That is exactly what's happening here. This game is a hack and slasher with over-the-top violence everywhere, but people are only offended by the fact that the main character is allowed to stare at boobs and crotches.

Do you people realize how ridiculous this is?

So your point is that because games are violent it's okay to leer at women without their permission? You sure have funny logic. Are you also looking for a game that lets you segregate black people? (don't worry it's not violent)

No, the point seems to be that if you're going to be offended that you''re leering (which is completely optional, btw, unlike killing things left and right), you should be offended by everything else and not just the leering.

 

[IrishNinja]

This point in particular glosses over something fairly major:
"By look at her breasts and crotch, she will, of course, like you more."
Worded incorrectly. It's true that you're basically ogling your date while she isn't looking, but if she catches you, she'll be hella pissed off.

This isn't worded incorrectly at all: It's a direct case of cause and effect. Aside from presenting the woman with gifts - which you can only do at certain intervals - the *entire* mini-game revolves around staring at her crotch and breasts while the game occasionally pumps out up-beat music overlaid with female orgasm sounds. As it's the only thing that you actually in this mini-game, I don't think my tongue-in-cheek correlation is unfair.

that's not a correlation, though...it's a direct misrepresentation about a minigame you've attempted a detailed analysis of. if she doesn't "like you more" for oggling, but rather less, that sort've context is important to bear in mind before, say, putting together a skit about it.

People keep comparing it to James Bond, but fuck that - at least he's a pretty smooth talker.

we're still talking about an entertainment piece where a killer is known for philandering with any woman he chooses. are elements of sexploitation suddenly not okay for you when Golgo 13 likewise doesn't speak?

The money thing is a cause of confusion, but frankly I'm not the one to blame: Three or four people in the office saw the mini-game, and everyone thought that one of the items you could give the girl was cash. As a translator for the game you may have had documentation that explained otherwise, but from the perspective of a player this wasn't made clear, as we were pretty certain about it. If we were wrong I'd put that down to a lack of clarity on the development side.

here, you've acknowledged a wrongful assumption, but because 4 others followed it, you're putting that on Suda as well. This isn't helping your narrative.

The point I wanted to make with this video is simple: Suda 51 has been respected as an auteur for many years, but the nature of his recent work no longer earns him that kind of status. You might argue that this stuff is knowingly subversive, but that doesn't escape the reality of the situation: His games primarily pander to an audience of fap-happy teens. The fact that X-ray glasses are pre-order DLC makes this situation abundantly clear.

Were you entirely absent for No More Heroes 1-2? Shadows of the Damned? Lollipop Chainsaw? because you're, again, pointing at a minigame to justify the claim that a dev now panders only to "fap-happy teens", despite years of distinct themes & tropes (luchadores, religion, the smiths etc) as well as some questionable design choices. Pardon the dichotomy here, but the case you're making seems to either illustrate a lack of following Suda's prior titles or a strong desire to harp on an angle you found (and again, clearly didn't fully understand) from his most recent one.

There's a term for that in the world of art: Selling out. I think there's a place for games like this, in the same way that I wouldn't want pornography outlawed - I just think that people who treat games like this as 'art' rather than being a guilty pleasure have traveled about sixteen feet up their own arse.

Again, it's rather hard to take you seriously here - these later paragraphs show a desire for an honest conversation, but you just got done talking about "calling out" a niche developer for doing something not unlike many of his prior works, deeming him a "sell out" then unironically speaking on people up their own ass.

Lastly, let's talk about agendas. My agenda is simple: Let's make games better. Mostly that involves pointing the finger at giant publishers being fuckwits, but sometimes the issues are more complex than that. This video features me expressing fairly mild opinions in a fashion that I assumed would be universally reasonable - the real agendas at play here come from an entirely different angle. There's a strange beast that storms into town whenever anything related to gender gets mentioned, and the horrifically unpleasant nature of this cyclone makes reasoned conversation impossible.

'Trendy feminism' isn't the problem here - it's the deeply vicious and aggressive response that any notion of equality is met with: A weird fear that somehow games are being forced to change to meet the needs of a wacko liberal minority. Looking at how beautifully niche the PC games I'm playing right now are, I'm not sure where the seeds of this fear come from, but I'm fascinated by it to say the least.

this here is a clear false dichotomy, as you're painting many of those disagreeing with you of clearly being on team misogyny. there are those of us who likewise identify with feminism, but do not act surprised when niche devs known for certain tropes illustrate them in their next title - i likewise do not watch Rambo flicks and expect a balanced view on 3rd world politics. Picking & choosing one's battles is important, and even when planting one's flag on something like this happens, i don't think "KILLER IS DEAD - AND SO IS SUDA'S CAREER" is a reasoned way to go about this.

Calling someone a faggot and telling them you hope they die in YouTube comment, to be blunt, doesn't.

no pity for those who read youtube comments - if i put my hand in a shark tank, i certainly have the right to feel pain, regret and a host of other emotions. surprise, upon being bitten, is not one of those.

Apologies for the tl;dr, but I'll leave you with a final point: I didn't create this video with an agenda, but I've definitely got one now. I won't back down, and I won't admit that my opinions are "wrong", as so many halfwits have hilariously demanded. My video content will not become a crusade, and I will continue to make the same stuff as always - but I won't hold back because of this when it comes to dealing with games in the future. Those who claim I am a censor of art aim to bludgeon me into silence with slurs, but that is something they can never achieve - in the same way that pissy blacklisting publishers will never make me keep my mouth shut either. Videogames journalism has lost its way, and brutal honesty is the only way forward - no matter what the cost.

If what you've just read makes me your enemy, I'm fucking proud to wear that badge.

there's no need for martyrdom in the final act. and yes, it's clear you got an agenda after tossing up your factually incorrect video, because that way neither your opinions or said facts can somehow be wrong, as the goalposts have been moved. it's not about an optional minigame you found distasteful; it's about gamers who enjoy Suda's offerings taking part in a culture that doesn't want females enjoying these games, a claim I find a bit offensive but honestly? If I'm going to really indulge any of the multitude of gendered topics in gaming right now, this isn't one of them.

Which is to say: at the root of it, I agree with you on the problems of gender & gaming, it's something that's a hot topic now because it's a discussion long overdue. However, over-emphasizing bits like this - particularly while ignoring context - is something I believe is done at the expense of the topic at hand, hence the logical assumptions regarding your questionable intent. if you find that displeasurable, though I would personally say to highlight a better example, at the least, strengthen your argument & do so professionally, there's no reason to use insults or make it about you in your closing bits.

I preordered Killer is Dead then started actively avoiding all news about it because well... It's Suda51, it looked cool and I wanted it. You're video broke my impenetrable information blackout shield and I have since cancelled my preorder. Fuck, I was really looking forward to this as well.

Watching yet another example of scared little children yelling at someone because "feminismer am attack videogames" is depressing, next weeks tropes vs women reaction will probably is going to be even worse.

to be clear: you canceled your preorder because this guy wrote a piece on an optional minigame he had to be corrected on regarding several of its points...what did you make of Lollipop Chainsaw?

 

[Weezin]

I really do not need to hear some dude who "cares about women's rights" to lecture me how to be a "real" feminist. You know what gets old even faster than criticizing the choices of game designers regarding their female characters? Game designers being creepy fucks.

hear hear!

 

[Mr.Monitor]

The point I wanted to make with this video is simple: Suda 51 has been respected as an auteur for many years, but the nature of his recent work no longer earns him that kind of status. You might argue that this stuff is knowingly subversive, but that doesn't escape the reality of the situation: His games primarily pander to an audience of fap-happy teens. The fact that X-ray glasses are pre-order DLC makes this situation abundantly clear.

It's not a matter of censorship, it's a matter of retracting respect. I've given him the benefit of the doubt for a long time, but now it's clear that he's compromised his own art for the sake of easy sales to a male teen market. There's a term for that in the world of art: Selling out. I think there's a place for games like this, in the same way that I wouldn't want pornography outlawed - I just think that people who treat games like this as 'art' rather than being a guilty pleasure have traveled about sixteen feet up their own arse.

I'd just like to ask if you've played any of the game yourself, and if so, has it been anything outside the gigolo mode minigame. If not, I think your argument is a little misguided, or at least premature. It's like basing your opinion of Metal Gear Solid 3 on the Ape Escape minigame, the parts where you could enter first person mode and stare at EVA's tits, or the secret theater. I don't think anyone here is arguing that the gigolo mode is "art," but I'd at least like you to actually consider the game around it before jumping to such harsh conclusions. You talk about context and tone in your video, but that flies out the window very quickly, as you never really take a step back and consider the minigame for what it is. It's just a tongue in cheek extra that as far as I know, keeps itself pretty separate from the rest of the game. Yes, it isn't artistic. Yes, it's crass and maybe a little creepy. I really don't think Grasshopper is trying to pass it off as something that is the former and isn't the latter, but you seem to want to base your opinion of the entire game on this mode. Now, if you have received a review copy already (I don't think you have) or have played an extended demo or something like that, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the rest of the game. Preferably without the facetious "comedy" and the condescending tone. It's not a good look.

Spoiler

Also, you are aware that Suda 51 hasn't actually been in a director's role in any of "his" recent games (Shadows of the Damned, Lollipop Chainsaw, No More Heroes 2), right? I'm legitimately curious, because you seem intent on calling out work that I really wouldn't call his, even if it has his name slapped on it. You should probably be addressing Grasshopper, not Suda.

 

[Sats]

I know women who are put off by guys giving them flowers because it's so cliche and they don't even like flowers. It's a stereotype. Also money insinuates gold digger. Man, I really have to explain these things to people? =

That's like saying its wrong to hold a door open for a girl.

 

[abadguy]

So your point is that because games are violent it's okay to leer at women without their permission? You sure have funny logic. Are you also looking for a game that lets you segregate black people? (don't worry it's not violent)

Not sure how you got that being my point, rather than the usual bullshit views of sex being as bad or worse than violence by the western media and if he were cutting her or any other character up in a fight , we wouldn't even be having this conversation because it would hardly be seen as an issue.

So now that the flash-in-the-pan controversy surrounding Dragon's Crown and its denizens gigantic boobs has evaporated into an already long-distant memory, the feminist clique need a new monthly non-issue cause to keep that bandwagon chugging along at a steady pace.

Killer is Dead - I CHOOSE YOU!

Seriously, if this game came out a couple of years ago, nobody would've batted an eyelid.

Exactly. Suda was pulling off actual disturbing shit in Killer 7, what's going on in here is'nt anything i wouldn't see in a cheesy 80's sex comedy.

 

[Weezin]

He's not straw-man arguing shit. That is exactly what's happening here. This game is a hack and slasher with over-the-top violence everywhere, but people are only offended by the fact that the main character is allowed to stare and boobs and crotches.

Do you people realize how ridiculous this is?

Violence isn't always a bad thing. It depends on why the violence is happening. There's usually some motivation such as defending yourself or saving someone else. What's the moral justification for staring at a woman's breasts without her permission and then the ridiculous notion that she'd sleep with you based on that?

 

[Vice]

I think you're missing the issue here. The problem with this mode isn't the sex. It's how the 'seduction' of the woman is performed... by being disrespectful and pervy.

That's the point though. The whole 007 appeal is that he's a huge pervert who still seemingly gets every woman he desires by just being 007. This game seems to be taking it to an extreme conclusion and satirizing it. Suda's game since NHM are all like this, they take tropes and push them toward absurdity.

 

[Weezin]

This is the issue that we're really staring at, here. People are willfully ignoring the actual message and running off with their own agenda: That people shouldn't take tits out of games. In the video I even made a specific point about the fact that this *wasn't* the issue I was discussing, but hey - internet.

Yeah the logical fallacies are strong in this thread! and generally in discussions about gender sadly

 

[Weezin]

That's like saying its wrong to hold a door open for a girl.

holding a door open for a person is polite. Assuming a black guy loves watermelon can be offensive. Just like any other stereotype.

 

[CaptainGyro]

I know women who are put off by guys giving them flowers because it's so cliche and they don't even like flowers. It's a stereotype. Also money insinuates gold digger. Man, I really have to explain these things to people? =\

And I know women who actually do like being given flowers, so........
And liking money insinuates having common sense and intelligence. But if people want to get outraged and read too much into it go ahead and be outraged I guess. Personally i think it's completely idiotic and reaching

 

[Sats]

holding a door open for a person is polite. Assuming a black guy loves watermelon can be offensive. Just like any other stereotype.

So it is offensive to give a girl roses now? When did that shit start?

 

[deli2000]

He's not straw-man arguing shit. That is exactly what's happening here. This game is a hack and slasher with over-the-top violence everywhere, but people are only offended by the fact that the main character is allowed to stare and boobs and crotches.

Do you people realize how ridiculous this is?



No, the point seems to be that if you're going to be offended that you''re leering (which is completely optional, btw, unlike killing things left and right), you should be offended by everything else and not just the leering.

I'm offended by fuck all, I just find it creepy and weird. If a half-naked woman was slashed in half by a big ass sword I would find it disgusting, yes.

no-one in this thread has said that slashing a half-naked woman in half OK. So yes, it was a straw-man.

 

[Heyt]

I never liked gígolo mode and discovering its like this is sadly no surprise. But my main concern with the game is how good the main mode is going to be. E3 gameplay did not impress me in a good way but I really want to like this game... It seems like it's going to be a hard thing to do...

 

[Weezin]

And I know women who actually do like being given flowers, so........
And liking money insinuates having common sense and intelligence. But if people want to get outraged and read too much into it go ahead and be outraged I guess. Personally i think it's completely idiotic and reaching

Yeah but the idea that all women are lumped into one group is tiresome. This part of the mode isn't the worst part anyways.

 

[Jam_Sponge]

But what about the rest of the game? What if it's awesome and features female characters that are portrayed very differently?

What if I put together a video of Mad Men clips featuring lingering shots of Christina Hendricks' curves and characters' comments about her cup size? Would anyone be right to judge the whole series based on that?

I agree with many of the sentiments that you have expressed, I just feel like this is being blown out of proportion. And I usually love your videos, man, keep up the good work.

From what we've played of the rest of the game, the characters aren't portrayed differently. It's the classic Japan-style stuff that many will excuse on that account, but I'd advise any white males who openly accept all cultural differences to go on holiday to North Africa.

I see what you mean about Mad Men, but this is a conscious design choice rather than background aesthetic - if it was just busty women strutting about I personally wouldn't give much of a fuck; it's the creepy seduction mini-game that I take issue with. Context is everything - I thought Catherine was awesome, for example - that game had a massively pervy streak, but used that to do something really interesting with the narrative. This just feels... hollow. Other people might not feel the same, and I'll be interested to see how it's received.

In terms of getting blown out of proportion, I definitely agree - I think a lot of that has come from the fact that it quickly created an internet explosion. The video was only ever intended as a blunt opinion piece, but the size of the reaction that followed has given it more gravitas than it ever really deserved. I don't mince my words when it comes to opinions, but I also don't expect my opinions to be treated as fact: Many seem to think that I treat my opinions as being infallible just because I speak with conviction. I don't, I'm just a passionate dude. If you don't agree with me, that's cool - I just draw a line at death threats and homophobic nonsense.

 

[rvy]

Violence isn't always a bad thing. It depends on why the violence is happening. There's usually some motivation such as defending yourself or saving someone else. What's the moral justification for staring at a woman's breasts without her permission and then the ridiculous notion that she'd sleep with you based on that?

Because this guy goes to the fucking moon to kill things! Holy shit.
The characters in this game are not realistic representations of human beings and how they interact with each other. This is why you are allowed to stare at boobs. This is why you kill things with a sword. This is why you go to the moon.

Demon's don't show up out of nowhere for you to slash them with your magical katana in real life. Why is this game expected to convey how people actually interact with each other?

I'm offended by fuck all, I just find it creepy and weird. If a half-naked woman was slashed in half by a big ass sword I would find it disgusting, yes.

no-one in this thread has said that slashing a half-naked woman in half OK. So yes, it was a straw-man.

Uh, I'm talking about the violence in general here. I don't care if he's killing a guy, a girl or a demon.
Not a single person is offended by the fact that he murdered large quantities of beings, just that he stares at boobs.

 

[Weezin]

So it is offensive to give a girl roses now? When did that shit start?

Yeah if you're expecting her to sleep with you in exchange.

 

[abadguy]

Violence isn't always a bad thing. It depends on why the violence is happening. There's usually some motivation such as defending yourself or saving someone else. What's the moral justification for staring at a woman's breasts without her permission and then the ridiculous notion that she'd sleep with you based on that?

So violence isn't always a bad thing but you need " moral justification" to stare at a woman's boobs? Hmm. Plus again it's pretty much established that the MC is a bit of a sleaze anyway and a parody of the 007 character.

 

[MMaRsu]

I dont know about you guys and girls but this looks cool to me!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CPRCEi2RXc&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

[Weezin]

Because this guy goes to the fucking moon to kill things! Holy shit.
The characters in this game are not realistic representations of human beings and how they interact with each other. This is why you are allowed to stare at boobs. This is why you kill things with a sword. This is why you go to the moon.

Demon's don't show up out of nowhere for you to slash them with your magical katana in real life. Why is this game expected to convey how people actually interact with each other?

Unfortunately men staring at boobs and objectifying real women is something that regularly occurs in real life. 1 out of 5 women have been sexually assaulted. So no I don't think it's over the top and yes I do think it's disgraceful.

 

[deli2000]

but you need " moral justification" to stare at a woman's boobs?

Wow. You seem like a nice guy.

 

[Pie and Beans]

I champion plenty of stuff, it's just that most of it goes unwatched. When the reaction to stuff like this is THIS fucking mental, it's clear that there's a massive problem at hand.

Sorry if it's a topic that you find tedious, but for my generation it's hardly a surprise: I grew up getting so much shit for being a gamer, and now we're almost at the point where it's accepted as being something that normal people do there are people actively trying to ensure that gaming remains a closed circle. As someone who was excluded from society for most of my life because of my unusual hobby, it's a topic that I hold pretty close to my heart. That's the long and short of it, and I suspect that's the case for almost everyone else who occasionally brings up stuff like this. There are a group of people actively working to undo everything we've spent our lives working towards, and obviously that's going to be met with a response.

I appreciate that it can be tiresome, though, and that's why I don't let it dominate the majority of what I do - primarily I make entertainment, with an emphasis on comedy stuff. It would be easier to ignore stuff like this entirely, but leaving a small group of nutters to themselves in the hope that they'll just go away isn't clever: We did the same thing in the UK with UKIP - a faintly racist political organisation that no-one paid any attention until the point where they actually started gaining power. I don't blame people for ignoring topics like this, but dismissing them as a waste of time doesn't seem helpful either.

Another big argument is that it doesn't matter because "it's just videogames", which is fair enough to an extent - I don't wave the flag for the GAMES ARE ART crowd, but I certainly think it's reductionist to shrug the whole medium off as a silly waste of time. Everything we do in life is fundamentally pointless if you look at it from a wider scale, so by the same merit everything is worth being observed from some sort of worthwhile perspective. "Who cares?" is a pretty limp response, and one that works with almost anything. If you're going to live your life with that mantra, I can't imagine why you'd ever get out of bed.

I guess I'd be interested to know where your thoughts lay on the whole Dragon's Crown debacle that still feels a little too fresh for me to be enthused for dragging another japanese fellow (that I don't even like!!) through the streets.

Yes we are most probably of the same UK generation, and because of that I still see videogames going through their finding themselves years, which does require good critique and more to help them get through certain quagmires. Exaggerating and whatever else you did wrong in this video with half-truths and played for laughs may not be the best way of doing it.

Also of course the danger of shaking the angry stick at any and all sexualised content for me is a big no-no as well because thats why we still feel about a million miles away from just natural sex scenes and whatever in a game. You have to go through the teenage years of "is he looking at her tits?! oh hells, he is!" before you get to the latter maturity "thats another dudes dick, but thats okay because its pretty plot relevant!" level. You may want to skip those years, I may do too, but thats just not how it works. Its an iterative evolution thing.

On the same level, if you were going to convince UKIP members or fence sitters to shy away from said clown car, you wouldn't go full tilt at them calling them racists. You have to demonstrate positives rather than beat sticks on the negatives. Your Last of Us video, good example. This low hanging fruit for an easy controversy outrage ball kicking, not so much.

 

[ArjanN]

that's not a correlation, though...it's a direct misrepresentation about a minigame you've attempted a detailed analysis of. if she doesn't "like you more" for oggling, but rather less, that sort've context is important to bear in mind before, say, putting together a skit about it.



we're still talking about an entertainment piece where a killer is known for philandering with any woman he chooses. are elements of sexploitation suddenly not okay for you when Golgo 13 likewise doesn't speak?



here, you've acknowledged a wrongful assumption, but because 4 others followed it, you're putting that on Suda as well. This isn't helping your narrative.



Were you entirely absent for No More Heroes 1-2? Shadows of the Damned? Lollipop Chainsaw? because you're, again, pointing at a minigame to justify the claim that a dev now panders only to "fap-happy teens", despite years of distinct themes & tropes (luchadores, religion, the smiths etc) as well as some questionable design choices. Pardon the dichotomy here, but the case you're making seems to either illustrate a lack of following Suda's prior titles or a strong desire to harp on an angle you found (and again, clearly didn't fully understand) from his most recent one.



Again, it's rather hard to take you seriously here - these later paragraphs show a desire for an honest conversation, but you just got done talking about "calling out" a niche developer for doing something not unlike many of his prior works, deeming him a "sell out" then unironically speaking on people up their own ass.



this here is a clear false dichotomy, as you're painting many of those disagreeing with you of clearly being on team misogyny. there are those of us who likewise identify with feminism, but do not act surprised when niche devs known for certain tropes illustrate them in their next title - i likewise do not watch Rambo flicks and expect a balanced view on 3rd world politics. Picking & choosing one's battles is important, and even when planting one's flag on something like this happens, i don't think "KILLER IS DEAD - AND SO IS SUDA'S CAREER" is a reasoned way to go about this.



no pity for those who read youtube comments - if i put my hand in a shark tank, i certainly have the right to feel pain, regret and a host of other emotions. surprise, upon being bitten, is not one of those.



there's no need for martyrdom in the final act. and yes, it's clear you got an agenda after tossing up your factually incorrect video, because that way neither your opinions or said facts can somehow be wrong, as the goalposts have been moved. it's not about an optional minigame you found distasteful; it's about gamers who enjoy Suda's offerings taking part in a culture that doesn't want females enjoying these games, a claim I find a bit offensive but honestly? If I'm going to really indulge any of the multitude of gendered topics in gaming right now, this isn't one of them.

Which is to say: at the root of it, I agree with you on the problems of gender & gaming, it's something that's a hot topic now because it's a discussion long overdue. However, over-emphasizing bits like this - particularly while ignoring context - is something I believe is done at the expense of the topic at hand, hence the logical assumptions regarding your questionable intent. if you find that displeasurable, though I would personally say to highlight a better example, at the least, strengthen your argument & do so professionally, there's no reason to use insults or make it about you in your closing bits.



to be clear: you canceled your preorder because this guy wrote a piece on an optional minigame he had to be corrected on regarding several of its points...what did you make of Lollipop Chainsaw?

Just wanted to say I love this post. It's basically how I feel about the whole thing (but I couldn't be bothered to type it all out.)

 

[rvy]

Unfortunately men staring at boobs and objectifying real women is something that regularly occurs in real life. 1 out of 5 women have been sexually assaulted. So no I don't think it's over the top and yes I do think it's disgraceful.

Good thing this is entertainment and not real life then.

Also, please show me proof that violence towards women is rooted in video games or that video games contribute to it.

1 out of 5 women... what, in America? In your state? In the world?

 

[Aske]

It's not a matter of censorship, it's a matter of retracting respect. I've given him the benefit of the doubt for a long time, but now it's clear that he's compromised his own art for the sake of easy sales to a male teen market. There's a term for that in the world of art: Selling out.

To 'sell out' is to compromise one's artistic vision in order to win greater sales. Suda's games have never sold well; the T&A has been a constant theme in his products; and unlike many other Japanese developers, he has yet to introduce any ostensibly mainstream elements or attempted to 'westernize' his output. It seems unlikely that his inclusion of the Gigolo missions was conceived as a means to sell more units rather than as a facet of the experience he wanted to create.

I think there's a place for games like this, in the same way that I wouldn't want pornography outlawed - I just think that people who treat games like this as 'art' rather than being a guilty pleasure have traveled about sixteen feet up their own arse.

I tend to think the same about people who feel that a form of creative expression ought not to be defined as art if it fails to measure up to their arbitrary standards of good taste and decency.

 

[BanGy.nz]

tto be clear: you canceled your preorder because this guy wrote a piece on an optional minigame he had to be correced on regarding several of its points...what did you make of Lollipop Chainsaw?

Watched the video, read some more and cancelled.

I skipped Lollipop Chainsaw.

 

[CaptainGyro]

Yeah but the idea that all women are lumped into one group is tiresome. This part of the mode isn't the worst part anyways.

So..do you think that giving the alcohol lumps all women together into one group where all women enjoy alcohol?

 

[Jam_Sponge]

I'd just like to ask if you've played any of the game yourself, and if so, has it been anything outside the gigolo mode minigame. If not, I think your argument is a little misguided, or at least premature. It's like basing your opinion of Metal Gear Solid 3 on the Ape Escape minigame, the parts where you could enter first person mode and stare at EVA's tits, or the secret theater. I don't think anyone here is arguing that the gigolo mode is "art," but I'd at least like you to actually consider the game around it before jumping to such harsh conclusions. You talk about context and tone in your video, but that flies out the window very quickly, as you never really take a step back and consider the minigame for what it is. It's just a tongue in cheek extra that as far as I know, keeps itself pretty separate from the rest of the game. Yes, it isn't artistic. Yes, it's crass and maybe a little creepy. I really don't think Grasshopper is trying to pass it off as something that is the former and isn't the latter, but you seem to want to base your opinion of the entire game on this mode. Now, if you have received a review copy already (I don't think you have) or have played an extended demo or something like that, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the rest of the game. Preferably without the facetious "comedy" and the condescending tone. It's not a good look.

Spoiler

Also, you are aware that Suda 51 hasn't actually been in a director's role in any of "his" recent games (Shadows of the Damned, Lollipop Chainsaw, No More Heroes 2), right? I'm legitimately curious, because you seem intent on calling out work that I really wouldn't call his, even if it has his name slapped on it. You should probably be addressing Grasshopper, not Suda.

I've seen the other aspects of the game being played, but not had hands-on myself. To be honest though, that doesn't get it out of jail. This game is being almost entirely marketed with sex: http://youtu.be/K82vCvGzMAQ

I'm not saying that's morally wrong, but it earns you fuck-all respect from me. Marketing dictates the way a game is sold, and they've literally decided to target wankers. Slow clap, game over.

 

[Weezin]

Good thing this is entertainment and not real life then.

Also, please show me proof that violence towards women is rooted in video games or that video games contribute to it.

1 out of 5 women... what, in America? In your state? In the world?

In the US. I didn't say it was causing it directly but it can reinforce attitudes that already exist. I'm done with this though. Keep on marginalizing half the population of the world, buddy.

 

[Weezin]

So..do you think that giving the alcohol lumps all women together into one group where all women enjoy alcohol?

More likely it's insinuating that if you get her drunk you can sleep with her. Still offensive!

 

[deli2000]

Uh, I'm talking about the violence in general here. I don't care if he's killing a guy, a girl or a demon.
Not a single person is offended by the fact that he murdered large quantities of beings, just that he stares at boobs.

Did you even see the post I replied to. I'm not talking about violence in general. He quite literally said that we thought slicing a half-naked woman is OK.

quoting the post because who the fuck reads anything on NeoGAF

It's a guy looking at a woman's underwear how "awful". Now if he pulled out his sword and split her in half with blood and entrails flying everywhere, acceptable!
.

 

[Dandy Lyin]

The solution to the portrayal of women in videogames as sex objects is obvious... You simply say that the main character is a womanizer!

Sorry ladies -- we had to design you as a vehicle for teenage erections because this character we invented had to be a pervy sleazeball! You can't say anything about it though... because art.

 

[Hot Coldman]

FWIW, Jam_Sponge, I would have been all fucking for a video ripping into the GOD FUCKING AWFUL marketing for Killer is Dead, such as KiDTV and the fact that they've spent all their budget putting Jessica Nigri into skimpy outfits (which I guess she would have figured out how to do anyway, but, you know).

 

[Seraphis Cain]

I've seen the other aspects of the game being played, but not had hands-on myself. To be honest though, that doesn't get it out of jail. This game is being almost entirely marketed with sex: http://youtu.be/K82vCvGzMAQ

I'm not saying that's morally wrong, but it earns you fuck-all respect from me. Marketing dictates the way a game is sold, and they've literally decided to target wankers. Slow clap, game over.

Okay Matt, wait a sec. You said that Videogamer has a "preview copy". Okay, that's fine. What does this preview copy entail? Did you just play Gigolo Mode and nothing else? Is the preview copy only Gigolo Mode? I find it a bit odd that you'd get a preview copy of KiD and the first thing you'd do would be to jump into Gigolo Mode and not give the main game a go first.

I'm one of your biggest fans on GAF (I'm the dude who made that "Matt Lees is awesome" thread a while back). I'm just trying to understand what your hands-on experience with the game was, exactly.