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[Dusk Golem]

I have a confession to make.

I enjoyed Shadows of the Damned AND Lollipop Chainsaw, and I have next to zero interests in sexual appeal in games (I even play Lollipop Chainsaw in the fullbody bunny suit costume as it's my favorite costume in the game, it's just hilarious to me). Hell, the only other two big Suda51 & Grasshopper fans I know personally are female.

I know it's not every type of gamers game, but there is far more to the games for those who find the certain, odd appeal.

I am not arguing there are no sexualized elements, but I don't think they're all about the sex nor do I get easily offended by "Taste my big boner!", or the up-skit achievement in Lollipop Chainsaw. I could live without them, but such things are not the core part of any Grasshopper game I've played, though an element. Padding, but not the core of the game, or why I like them.

 

[Nozem]

Damn, that game mode sounds just really really pathetic. Exactly the type of game I imagine the stereotypical basement dwelling gaming nerd obsessing about.

 

[deli2000]

It's not really offensive or sexist, but it's also quite a weird concept. If you enjoy it that's fine. But don't criticize people who have problems with it.

The guys who defend this pathetic bullshit are the exact same type who will be cranking it whilst playing this game.

I don't care about the arguments for or against the realities of the situation 'gigilo mode' is supposedly imitating, it's just totally unnecessary. It serves no thematic purpose, at it's worst it's incredibly embarrassing and potentially offensive, and at best it's providing base titillation for basement dwelling perverts and hentai aficionado's.

Love you guys, byeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

These type of posts aren't helping either.

 

[Codeblue]

Really? I mean REALLY?

Surely you could see he was speaking figuratively and that it just implies that he doesn't agree/approve/respect what he saw of the game.

Typically that phrase is used to remove someone from their job, and it looks like I'm not the only one who misunderstood.

 

[rvy]

You didn't have to move the camera to stare at the women because EA and Bioware made damn sure to give you great camera angles on Miranda's ass, or introducing characters like Jack who barely has a top on, or dolling up Ashley who's supposed to be the tough female soldier of your squad, or turning the ship's AI into a walking sex doll. All of this in Videogame's Leading Franchise In Smart, Mature Interactive Storytelling™. But I guess that's okay because you have empty conversations with them carefully choosing blue or red dialogue options- whichever will get you that sweet sweet cutscene and achievement that proves to the world how much game you can talk.

Gigolo Mode is a controllable Porky's shower scene. It's a small (optional?) part of a completely over the top game in every facet- from violence, to narrative, to environments, to characterization, and yes, to sexuality. It's fine if this isn't your cup of tea, but let's not act as if the game, Grasshopper, or Suda are in any way advocating or condoning this behavior, or putting out a serious title that's pushing for female representation in gaming to remain solely as sexual window dressing.

The biased words of a man who masturbates at videogames.

 

[dark_prinny]

The guys who defend this pathetic bullshit are the exact same type who will be cranking it whilst playing this game.

I don't care about the arguments for or against the realities of the situation 'gigilo mode' is supposedly imitating, it's just totally unnecessary. It serves no thematic purpose, at it's worst it's incredibly embarrassing and potentially offensive, and at best it's providing base titillation for basement dwelling perverts and hentai aficionado's.

Love you guys, byeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

 

[Uthred]

An arguement I've never understood is that "basement dwelling nerds" are buying this to crank one out to, I mean people who subscribe to this view are aware of the internet right? And how it intersects with the porn industry? If you want to look at naked women you go to google not gigolo mode.

 

[rvy]

An arguement I've never understood is that "basement dwelling nerds" are buying this to crank one out to, I mean people who subscribe to this view are aware of the internet right? And how it intersects with the porn industry? If you want to look at naked women you go to google not gigolo mode.

But that wouldn't fit their MO. You need to look down upon others from your high-horse when you're having this type of argument.
I mean, think of it like a rap battle, what sort of come back can the other people have when you call them masturbating, basement-dwelling nerds. It's the perfect insult, it paints them as pathetic low-lifes and you come off as the authority on all things holy and right.

There ain't no coming back from that, baby. You's done.

 

[Trame]

a better example would be God of War and it's sex minigames...why isn't that "bad"? or even talked abotu more? Is it because it is a staple? is it because it is rated M and generally over the top? Then why the fuck isn't this game "let off the hook" for the same reasons?

God of War gets a lot of shit for the sex minigames. You just don't get a big thread about it every time a new God of War comes out because people expect it from the series, whereas maybe it's something people haven't talked about for Suda51. See also: no one makes threads about brutal dismemberment in God of War games, but if Miyamoto made a game with brutal dismemberment there'd probably be a thread or ten about it.

Now there was a massive GoW controversy earlier this year over a sexist trophy name, but really, the idea that anyone is getting let off the hook or whatever is kind of ridiculous. Tropes vs Women, which has incredible exposure and gets tons of views and threads, calls out games for much less than the kind of overt sexism you talk about in your post. I'm not sure how you're determining how harshly a game is being attacked, but if you're going by GAF it depends on whether someone makes a thread and then whether people want to argue about it. It's not like people are changing their minds.

In recent memory - and this is just my perception, it's not like I've gone back and checked - I'd say Tomb Raider had the most critical articles written about it, and Other M had the worst fan reaction.

 

[fabricated backlash]

An arguement I've never understood is that "basement dwelling nerds" are buying this to crank one out to, I mean people who subscribe to this view are aware of the internet right? And how it intersects with the porn industry? If you want to look at naked women you go to google not gigolo mode.

It's nothing more than a point brought up by people who are too lazy to actually form an argument, and prefer to insult others by insinuating them being worthless human beings that are below their level in every regard, from maturity/morals/ambition/sex appeal.

It's more or less a sign of delusion of grandeur and an inability to engage in discourse.

But that wouldn't fit their MO. You need to look down upon others from your high-horse when you're having this type of argument.
I mean, think of it like a rap battle, what sort of come back can the other people have when you call them masturbating, basement-dwelling nerds. It's the perfect insult, it paints them as pathetic low-lifes and you come off as the authority on all things holy and right.

There ain't no coming back from that, baby. You's done.

Pretty much what he said

 

[Black Republican]

sounds good

 

[RpgN]

Typically that phrase is used to remove someone from their job, and it looks like I'm not the only one who misunderstood.

I'm not planning on discussing this bit for too long. Yes, it is used for firing people from their jobs. You often see it with police officers on tv. It should be clear that Matt has no power to do such a thing nor is he full of himself to the point of thinking him wanting a specific person to get fired. He tried to use humour on a video that was presented in a funny way even though it's a serious topic.

I think it's more that there are some gamers who don't like or agree with his views by trying to reduce it to nothing but hyperbole. Sometimes they don't try to understand what's truly being said and look at it in a negative way.

 

[Knux-Future]

Damn, that game mode sounds just really really pathetic. Exactly the type of game I imagine the stereotypical basement dwelling gaming nerd obsessing about.

I really hate these types of comments.

It adds nothing.

 

[Broder Salsa]

The biased words of a man who masturbates at videogames.

It's not my fault I was brought up in a perverted world. It's society's fault.

 

[rvy]

Thankfully, so far have people have been smart enough to refrain from using that sort of argument, because that shit isn't really acceptable. Especially for more recent members.

Or... you know, whatever.

It's not my fault I was brought up in a perverted world. It's society's fault.

You shut up. I know what you do with your avatar.

I recorded it. Gonna send it to the authorities.

 

[dan2026]

I like boobs.

 

[gogogow]

Really? I mean REALLY?

Surely you could see he was speaking figuratively and that it just implies that he doesn't agree/approve/respect what he saw of the game.

What about it? He did see the "game"? He only ranted about Gigolo mode, which is completely optional. And by reading the entire post by Hatsuu, it seems this guy is 99% wrong too. Okay, so he finds Gigolo mode creepy and what not, okay , cool. So how's the main game? How's the combat? How's the story? How's the music?

It seems he just tried out Gigolo mode, ignored the main story mode (Oh! it was just a slice of the final game!), which we all know beforehand was pervy and kinda ridiculous and made a quick "controversial" video about it. Seems very unprofessional to me, even if you didn't like the optional modes, you should still talk about the entire package. He talks about respect, yet he couldn't do it in a serious and respectful way in this video.

 

[Village]

An arguement I've never understood is that "basement dwelling nerds" are buying this to crank one out to, I mean people who subscribe to this view are aware of the internet right? And how it intersects with the porn industry? If you want to look at naked women you go to google not gigolo mode.

That only furthers the argument against. thing like gigolo mode than for it to be quite honest.

 

[Net_Wrecker]

The GoW sex minigames did get a lot of attention when the games came out, I've seen them mentioned numerous times as examples of the juvenile attitude games have to women. It's just one article about Killer is Dead dude, don't make this out to be a disproportionate reaction. And yeah, it is in the wrong. It's also annoying that the man who brought us the fantastic Eastern and Western representational deities clash in a nightmarish dreamworld is now gleefully making this crap.

I never meant this imply this video was part of some huge campaign against the game or that it's a massive overreaction, just that the frustration is being pointed at the wrong title. There are other more important, more widely known games that aren't even half as blatantly + purposely exploitative as Killer Is Dead that are at the root of the issue. Killer Is Dead is a fringe case. In the big scheme of things, it won't matter, and on top of that, being raunchy, and crass, and over the top is the whole point. This is what Grasshopper/Suda does, and it's no different from thousands of cases in other mediums since the dawn of entertainment.

I can't wait until we reach the point where females are in the main character role in games like this and the whole thing is about female empowerment and gender equality. Truthfully, if only so we can put this issue behind us and realize that all of it is just ridiculous fiction meant to push buttons and elicit reactions.

The biased words of a man who masturbates at videogames.

Oh yeah, bruh, I can't wait to spend $65 to do the old five knuckle shuffle to the Mondo Girls. *drool*

That argument is just......smh

 

[Knux-Future]

God of War gets a lot of shit for the sex minigames. You just don't get a big thread about it every time a new God of War comes out because people expect it from the series, whereas maybe it's something people haven't talked about for Suda51. See also: no one makes threads about brutal dismemberment in God of War games, but if Miyamoto made a game with brutal dismemberment there'd probably be a thread or ten about it.

Now there was a massive GoW controversy earlier this year over a sexist trophy name, but really, the idea that anyone is getting let off the hook or whatever is kind of ridiculous. Tropes vs Women, which has incredible exposure and gets tons of views and threads, calls out games for much less than the kind of overt sexism you talk about in your post. I'm not sure how you're determining how harshly a game is being attacked, but if you're going by GAF it depends on whether someone makes a thread and then whether people want to argue about it. It's not like people are changing their minds.

In recent memory - and this is just my perception, it's not like I've gone back and checked - I'd say Tomb Raider had the most critical articles written about it, and Other M had the worst fan reaction.

So of God gets a pass because well this is what they do why can't Suda?

Travis' entire motivation was damn near to get laid.

Suda has a history.

The difference is that GOW is portrayed seriously while Suda games aren't...

But yet... Here we are

 

[Infernal Monkey]

This thread has gotten more posts than every other Killer is Dead thread on NeoGAF combined. Props to Matt Lees for advertising the game. Can't wait. ヽ(‘ ∇‘ )ノ

 

[Sojgat]

Porn, toilet humor, and anything other than the highest of most serious art, should fuck off into space also.

 

[CaptainGyro]

Legally it is. Going out for drinks and finding someone is pretty common but legally, in the U.S. it counts as rape. I don't think it's that cut and dry, sometimes men and women just want to get wasted and screw, but on Gaf someone was bound to mention it so I figured it may as well be me.

Well I wasn't even necessarily only talking about getting shitfaced drunk and screwing some stranger that same exact night that they met. I said alcohol increases the chances to sleep with someone, and it does but I really don't want to explain it further because I think I should have to
But anyways is simply offering a girl a drink automatically some offensive scary gesture that says " hey if you drink this you got to have sex with me tonight?". If so ,when did this officially happen?

 

[Codeblue]

I'm not planning on discussing this bit for too long. Yes, it is used for firing people from their jobs. You often see it with police officers on tv. It should be clear that Matt has no power to do such a thing nor is he full of himself to the point of thinking him wanting a specific person to get fired. He tried to use humour on a video that was presented in a funny way even though it's a serious topic.

I think it's more that there are some gamers who don't like or agree with his views by trying to reduce it to nothing but hyperbole. Sometimes they don't try to understand what's truly being said and look at it in a negative way.

I said his criticism was fair not even a page ago, but you're right, I was deliberately misunderstanding then for some reason admitted to misunderstanding. You'll have to excuse me, I'm not very good at this feigned ignorance thing yet.

 

[Tiduz]

preordered two months ago, day one.

loved NMH.

 

[fabricated backlash]

Well I wasn't even necessarily only talking about getting shitfaced drunk and screwing some stranger that same exact night that they met. I said alcohol increases the chances to sleep with someone, and it does but I really don't want to explain it further because I think I should have to
But anyways is simply offering a girl a drink really some offensive scary gesture that says " hey if you drink this you got to have sex with me tonight?". When did this happen?

Only to people who have no social skills or experience really. Everyone else knows that nothing is as black and white, ever.

 

[Trame]

So of God gets a pass because well this is what they do why can't Suda?

Travis' entire motivation was damn near to get laid.

Suda has a history.

The difference is that GOW is portrayed seriously while Suda games aren't...

But yet... Here we are

God of War doesn't get a pass. Re-read my post. Google "god of war sexism" or "god of war ascension trophy controversy" if it still isn't clear. Again, there is a YouTube video with 1.5 million views criticizing, among other things, the portrayal of Princess Peach in Mario games. You're being disingenuous if you think no one criticizes God of War.

Unrelated: saying God of War is portrayed seriously is kind of a stretch.

 

[RpgN]

a better example would be God of War and it's sex minigames...why isn't that "bad"? or even talked abotu more? Is it because it is a staple? is it because it is rated M and generally over the top? Then why the fuck isn't this game "let off the hook" for the same reasons?

I see this is being brought up often. Honestly, you don't need to be an 'expert' to think of a few theories for why that might be the case.

1. Games were mostly consumed by males for a very long time. You hardly had any females who would play video games. And so, females weren't invested in the hobby or knew what was happening with these games.
2. When females did start gaming more, it was difficult to talk about this topic because there were too few females and games were still considered a boys club. This issue could not be brought up often and when it did, it was often reduced as a non-issue or that it should not be taken seriously.
3. Games have started to become more mainstream for the past few years. We're at the point where females do game more often and people from different backgrounds also enjoy gaming in general. Those gamers came much later than when gaming started. Of course they're not going to complain about games they didn't know existed.
4. Now that this topic has become more easy to talk about, you have to be aware that these articles/videos are written by people with their own personal experiences. They don't play every game that is released, they are not aware of every game that has this kind of content in them. They write about what they have played. You can't seriously expect them to mention every game that has such content in them.

 

[-PXG-]

News flash. This is a Japanese game. Their sense of humor, taste, tact and right and wrong are completely different. There are far worse things to be upset about. Please, sit the fuck down.

 

[Knux-Future]

God of War doesn't get a pass. Re-read my post. Google "god of war sexism" or "god of war ascension trophy controversy" if it still isn't clear. Again, there is a YouTube video with 1.5 million views criticizing, among other things, the portrayal of Princess Peach in Mario games. You're being disingenuous if you think no one criticizes God of War.

Unrelated: saying God of War is portrayed seriously is kind of a stretch.

In the post I quoted, you said

You just don't get a big thread about it every time a new God of War comes out because people expect it from the series, whereas maybe it's something people haven't talked about for Suda51

Which is what I was talking about...I'm sure there are people complainign about it. My point is that those type of things are the ones worth tackling...not a silly ass game like this. Parody and Satire allows for more riske material.

and while GOW is onbviously over the top in everything it does, it still is trying to carry a weight of a greek tragedy of sorts....not very successful at it but is trying.. It personally is also much worse than this...but still not as bad as the other shit that needs to be highlight..such as the lack of female leads. Not a silly minigame in a silly game that is basically paroding the whole James Bond gets all the ladaaayz steriotype.

I see this is being brought up often. Honestly, you don't need to be an 'expert' to think of a few theories for why that might be the case.

1. Games were mostly consumed by males for a very long time. You hardly had any females who would play video games. And so, females weren't invested in the hobby or knew what was happening with these games.
2. When females did start gaming more, it was difficult to talk about this topic because there were too few females and games were still considered a boys club. This issue could not be brought up often and when it did, it was often reduced as a non-issue or that it should not be taken seriously.
3. Games have started to become more mainstream for the past few years. We're at the point where females do game more often and people from different backgrounds also enjoy gaming in general. Those gamers came much later than when gaming started. Of course they're not going to complain about games they didn't know existed.
4. Now that this topic has become more easy to talk about, you have to be aware that these articles/videos are written by people with their own personal experiences. They don't play every game that is released, they are not aware of every game that has this kind of content in them. They write about what they have played. You can't seriously expect them to mention every game that has such content in them.

I get that..but it feels like any quirky japanese game that might have any pull...gets pulled in despite having legit or at least good reason for their "perversion", then threads are made, people gets called names, and no discussion is had.

it gets tiring.

My biggest issue is when those who may even enjoy this game are suddenly painted as sexual predators. It's my same issue with ANY anime related games (except the ones that deserve it.....my god).

 

[RpgN]

What about it? He did see the "game"? He only ranted about Gigolo mode, which is completely optional. And by reading the entire post by Hatsuu, it seems this guy is 99% wrong too. Okay, so he finds Gigolo mode creepy and what not, okay , cool. So how's the main game? How's the combat? How's the story? How's the music?

It seems he just tried out Gigolo mode, ignored the main story mode (Oh! it was just a slice of the final game!), which we all know beforehand was pervy and kinda ridiculous and made a quick "controversial" video about it. Seems very unprofessional to me, even if you didn't like the optional modes, you should still talk about the entire package. He talks about respect, yet he couldn't do it in a serious and respectful way in this video.

Gigolo mode is part of the game. It doesn't matter wether it's optional or not. It's there and he didn't like it. He was corrected by a couple of details he was wrong about but he is not 99% wrong with his views. He can still back them up with what the rest of that mode has to offer. He decided to focus on this aspect of the game with this video. Surely you can understand he was not trying to preview the game and give a general outlook on the gameplay. He would write an article or make another video for that.

I said his criticism was fair not even a page ago, but you're right, I was deliberately misunderstanding then for some reason admitted to misunderstanding. You'll have to excuse me, I'm not very good at this feigned ignorance thing yet.

I see you're doing this with me right now (intentional?). I was talking in general and said 'some people', I did not direct this bit personally at you.

 

[Marvel]

Still buying it.

 

[Gun Animal]

The guys who defend this pathetic bullshit are the exact same type who will be cranking it whilst playing this game.

I don't care about the arguments for or against the realities of the situation 'gigilo mode' is supposedly imitating, it's just totally unnecessary. It serves no thematic purpose, at it's worst it's incredibly embarrassing and potentially offensive, and at best it's providing base titillation for basement dwelling perverts and hentai aficionado's.

Love you guys, byeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

it's cool that there's internet in nursing homes.

 

[Zeyphersan]

Okay, let's get one thing clear here. Suda is allowed to make any game he wants, with any representation of women he wants, always. Not many people here are calling for him to lose that ability. Him or anyone in the game industry.

At the same time, I agree that not every game has to be high-brow and take everything seriously. There's serious movies and stupid movies, and both exist at the same time.

WITH THAT SAID, the reason that that is possible in movies and television is because it's usually balanced by other works having well-written, nuanced characters. Not every movie is filled with overly-sexualized women or shallow women, or shallow characters in general.

This game was targeted because it reflects something we should all be sick of: poorly characterized people, and especially women, in games, is completely normal. It's rare to have a well-written male character, even harder to find a woman.

I agree that this game is not the "best" example of sexism in games (if you people are searching for that), but it should represent something gamers should want to move past: the fact that this mini game exists is not actually considered a giant change of pace.

 

[velociraptor]

God of War sex mini-games are pretty awful too. At least in Mass Effect you are talking to the characters and developing an actual relationship, rather than just staring at their crotch or boobs.

But it's all the same.

 

[abadguy]

Damn, that game mode sounds just really really pathetic. Exactly the type of game I imagine the stereotypical basement dwelling gaming nerd obsessing about.

Except the only ones "obsessing" over this game are it's detractors go figure. Also you gotta love how fucking condecending you people are to those who dare to like something you don't. You're the type of person who refers to those who play shooters as "dudebros".

 

[CrazyArcadia]

So this is what it comes down to, feeling embarrassed about your hobby for years and wanting to ``elevate`` games to prove to the world that you weren`t doing something questionable all these years.

Sorry but it`s totally fine for certain games to be juvenile and low brow, just like certain movies are. If you`ve followed most of Grasshoppers output you would know what kind of game you`re getting into beforehand. Here`s a hint, it`s not going to be a game you can show off to your acquaintances as some kind of flag bearer for the medium`s maturity.

That Gigolo mini-game seems pretty harmless honestly, from what I`ve gathered the women that you `target` are the ones who are actively showing interest in your character. It seems like they find him attractive and want to be seduced, like a Bond type thing. Sure it`s silly and not reflective of reality but that`s the whole point no? You can say it`s not to your taste and made you uncomfortable around your colleagues at work or something but to go on about how his career is over, that`s pretty crazy honestly.

I pray to god you never have to review something like Hyperdimension Neptunia. Now THOSE games are embarrassing to me and you know what? I`m glad they exist because clearly someone likes them! Video games are many things and that`s just the way it should be, stop being so self conscious about what you enjoy, probably a good place to start.

This. I can enjoy both. Some can only enjoy a certain thing. If I don't like something or find it going against my personal beliefs, I don't play/watch/read it .
E.g. I hate celebration of war so... go figure, I won't play games with realistic war scenarios - at least if they are just the usual heroic weapon masturbation which I tend to find as juvenile as playing games because of akward sexualisation (just to note... something like Spec Ops The Line is OK in my book, as well as having war-related things as a background to the game while the focus is on something else. I like stealth, for example). But - and this is probably where taste and opinions come in - I enjoy games with "sexy females" while knowing that this is in no way a deeper or better experience and also cartering to certain "lesser" urges. Yet I don't actively go out and shame anyone who likes realistic weapons, gore and military stuff...

The solution to the portrayal of women in videogames as sex objects is obvious... You simply say that the main character is a womanizer!

Sorry ladies -- we had to design you as a vehicle for teenage erections because this character we invented had to be a pervy sleazeball! You can't say anything about it though... because art.

The solution to the portrayal of men in videogames as muscular, bloodthirsty killingmachines is obvious... You simply say that the main character is a tragic antihero on a quest for vengeance!

Sorry dudsters -- we had to design you as a vehicle for teenage power fantasies because this character we invented had to be able to execute visceral killing QTEs! You cant's say anything about it though... because art.
______________________________________________________________

See how stupid generalisations sound?





More Power to Matt Lee if he wants to express his opinion - which is his right. As a journalist, though, I think he might have given his rant a bit more background about the game in general (e.g. "... though the main games features X and Y and has some good aspects bla I think this one mode lessens the positive impact and destroys the experience for me." Otherwise, it's like forming the opinion on a movie on one or two key scenes) and reasons why he thinks this kind of content is bad in his opinion that go beyond "... because it's pervy". Though then it would probably disgress into the territory of "gender visualisation in videogames" which he did not want. So... it comes down to being a rant which is fair enough, but it could have been better - it comes off as bashing, especially towards the end. (and... a part of me agrees. I would have loved to have this Gigolo-part play out more like the hostess-scenarios in Yakuza games where you, you know, actually talk to the females. Yeah, maybe mix it up with "checking her out" and "give her gifts"-minigames or something, get rid of the orgasmic sounds though. It is juvenile and could have been better, probably. It does not concern me morally, though. I will still play the game.)
As for the general background of "sexism in gaming": I stated before in a similiar thread that IMO the bigger problems are located in how a part of the gaming community treats female videogame fans and how downright hostile the industry can be to females who would like to work in it in some cases. Male/Female power fantasies with muscular dudes and scantly clad females though? You don't like them, don't buy them. We have enough diversity. The movie industry doesn't collapse because of the existence of exploitative B-movies, either. It's ok to not like things, but we should remain fair towards those games because they can still be good in their own ways even though we maybe think they are tasteless or bad or juvenile or whatever when it comes to how they treat certain topics. (though... tbh I would cross the line when it comes to glorification of racism, homophobia, rape, torture and similiar things).

(I also preordered Killer is Dead months ago... and not because of the sex-aspects. So there's that )

 

[Ziltoid]

The irony of all this is that games like Killer is Dead and Dragons Crown will now sell more copies.

I'd like more and better female representation in games, but going after these niche titles is a waste of time. Focus on the multimillion sellers instead. For instance, I haven't seen much talk about the fact that there are no female player models in BF4, which is a shame.

 

[Village]

This. I can enjoy both. Some can only enjoy a certain thing. If I don't like something or find it going against my personal beliefs, I don't play/watch/read it .
E.g. I hate celebration of war so... go figure, I won't play games with realistic war scenarios - at least if they are just the usual heroic weapon masturbation which I tend to find as juvenile as playing games because of akward sexualisation (just to note... something like Spec Ops The Line is OK in my book, as well as having war-related things as a background to the game while the focus is on something else. I like stealth, for example). But - and this is probably where taste and opinions come in - I enjoy games with "sexy females" while knowing that this is in no way a deeper or better experience and also cartering to certain "lesser" urges. Yet I don't actively go out and shame anyone who likes realistic weapons, gore and military stuff...



The solution to the portrayal of men in videogames as muscular, bloodthirsty killingmachines is obvious... You simply say that the main character is a tragic antihero on a quest for vengeance!

Sorry dudsters -- we had to design you as a vehicle for teenage power fantasies because this character we invented had to be able to execute visceral killing QTEs! You cant's say anything about it though... because art.
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See how stupid generalisations sound?





More Power to Matt Lee if he wants to express his opinion - which is his right. As a journalist, though, I think he might have given his rant a bit more background about the game in general (e.g. "... though the main games features X and Y and has some good aspects bla I think this one mode lessens the positive impact and destroys the experience for me." Otherwise, it's like forming the opinion on a movie on one or two key scenes) and reasons why he thinks this kind of content is bad in his opinion that go beyond "... because it's pervy". Though then it would probably disgress into the territory of "gender visualisation in videogames" which he did not want. So... it comes down to being a rant which is fair enough, but it could have been better - it comes off as bashing, especially towards the end.
As for the general background of "sexism in gaming": I stated before in a similiar thread that IMO the bigger problems are located in how a part of the gaming community treats female videogame fans and how downright hostile the industry can be to females who would like to work in it in some cases. Male/Female power fantasies with muscular dudes and scantly clad females though? You don't like them, don't buy them. We have enough diversity. The movie industry doesn't collapse because of the existence of exploitative B-movies, either. It's ok to not like things, but we should remain fair towards those games because they can still be good in their own ways even though we maybe think they are tasteless or bad or juvenile or whatever when it comes to how they treat certain topics. (though... tbh I would cross the line when it comes to glorification of racism, homophobia, rape, torture and similiar things).

(I also preordered Killer is Dead months ago... and not because of the sex-aspects. So there's that )

No we don't and the fact that you think that indicates a larger problem.

 

[Delusibeta]

The irony of all this is that games like Killer is Dead and Dragons Crown will now sell more copies.

Probably, yeah. :lol

I'll have to say that Matt has done a decent job of defending his point without putting his foot in his mouth too much (at least compared to the glorious case of foot-in-mouth syndrome Schrider exhibited during the Dragon's Crown, where he said the Sorceress was an example of lolicon. Implication: anyone who liked her design was a paedophile). The NeoGAFShitPosts twitter does however make a fair point: "I'm wrong and I don't care" is not a particularly good look.

I suppose the other problem is that niche Japanese titles are niche and Japanese, both factors which tend to indicate they won't match up to Western sensibilities. Sure, there have been a few blow-ups on Western games, but they're usually based on decisions by morons in marketing (or, in the case of the GoW Ascension drama, literally nothing). It's only niche Japanese games that anyone's complained about actual in-game content.

 

[ConfusedCat]

Has anyone posted this video of the actual gameplay under discussion yet?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IdJTqn5EVo

 

[Backfoggen]

This weird mode is a stain on an otherwise cool lookin game
Still buying it tho

 

[Arc Christelle]

I think it's kinda cool. The player gets to attempt to get to know the female characters, their interests and whatnot and use that information to get intimate.

I think some people forget that sexuality is also a genuine part of people's character, and interests and tastes are a part of those things that define a person. Especially women. You want to please your lady? Learn about and from her, use those things to excite her and make her happy. Shit like that.

Sex doesn't always equal Sexism.

I wouldn't spend time with a woman that I had no sexual attraction unless I had no romantic interest in her whatsoever and was fine with being friends. That's just a fact of life. Which, I think people should consider some realistic things like this when discussing sexuality (not sexism) in video games.

I hear cries of objectification, but the game requires you to put effort into making your fictional male character succeed with his interests with fictional females by getting to know them. Women love a man that pays attention.

I'm pretty sure a lot of males in this thread have stepped outside, went to some public spot and probably saw a PYT sitting about, maybe you noticed her pretty face, maybe you noticed her breasts, her hips, ass, etc. Basically the advertisements that got you interested into wanting to spark a conversation with her. Doing that does not make you a creeper or even creepy.

Hell if she noticed you looking, if she like what she sees she might either respond with an inviting attitude or maybe try to ignore you or something. Maybe after a chat you realize you're really interested her, or maybe you're not.


I kinda like it. Mundo does shit people actually do. Even goes out of his way to treat the girls special. I know guys in real life that won't do shit for a lady and a lot of them enable it. (Like girls buying $200 shoes for a guy and he don't do shit for her. lol I'm serious.)

I think people see sexual content and lose their gord at times. I don't know if it's because they're not used to it by now or what. To make things even simpler, it's optional.

So I don't get the outrage.

Believe it or not, I think he's a gentleman.

But what do I know? I'm just an Arc with glasses.

Spoiler

Gigolo Glasses

 

[Harlock]

Another stupid journalist who wanna promote yourself. This guy is not different from the people of Fox News. Very sad.

 

[CrazyArcadia]

No we don't and the fact that you think that indicates a larger problem.

(sorry, this is now a bit off-topic)

We have -more- of certain things, true (to come back to it, for someone who does not like most military themed games or games with realistic violence, AAA-titles have been a wasteland for me). But we have diversity, more than ever before. We just don't have them marketed enough and thus they get buried. But the solution might be...

Instead of beating down niche games such as Killer is Dead (or Dragon's Crown) for sexualisation (and, ironically, giving them more exposure. And I state this as someone who has preordered both since these games follow my tastes - and I did NOT only buy them for gigolo mode or the sorceress, to make that clear) it would help to bring those games to more attention which get buried beneath the heap of games which play out like B-movies (And, honestly, most AAA-games do when it comes to story and scenario). Instead of writing yet another "me too"-piece about scantly clad females in games or visceral violent QTEs, write a piece about a game which does not feature these things and maybe offers a deep or refreshing storyline with realistic characters or making an unusual point or whatever . (just as conter examples to the "everything is sexist"-sentiment : http://red-little-house.tumblr.com/ or http://www.toryanse.co.uk/ , courtsey of the great Indie Games [July] Thread)

Again, I like certain games with questionable or "juvenile" content for what they are. And on another level, it is sad that most games which get enough marketing to sell are violent power fantasies. Since I also like games with serious or less over the top juvenile content.

But we have the diversity. Instead of buying every AAA-game, support games like these and hope that someday, there will be more of them, they will get bigger budgets and the selection of games in general will be more in balance.

 

[RpgN]

I get that..but it feels like any quirky japanese game that might have any pull...gets pulled in despite having legit or at least good reason for their "perversion", then threads are made, people gets called names, and no discussion is had.

it gets tiring.

My biggest issue is when those who may even enjoy this game are suddenly painted as sexual predators. It's my same issue with ANY anime related games (except the ones that deserve it.....my god).

A lot of western games have been called out as well. A couple of examples have been mentioned in this thread already. Remember Tomb Raider? That was a huge ruckus, it wouldn't stop for months.

I think Japanese games might get called out more often for different reasons. Firstly, Japanese games use female characters a lot in their games. It's still more rare with Western games. This has a double edged sword where Japanese developers can make more mistakes with the way they represent women. Secondly, Japanese developers rely a lot on art and sex to sell their games. Western games, for the most part, rely on graphics, realism and violence to sell their games. It's easy to notice this with Japanese games when you see it with artworks of characters or their marketing. Japanese marketing often focuses on these optional or not so optional compoments in their trailers, ads and articles. Yakuza games always have trailers and articles about the women you can 'date', Valhalla Knights 3 has trailers and articles about its private club, many other games have trailers about their games with the way you can punish or play with women. Heck, even Super Monkey Ball Banana Splitz (a colourful game that can be played by kids) is promoted by a level with a known female having her boobs sticking out. Western developers usually don't focus on that with their marketing. You don't see God of War ads mentioning the sex mini-game. These games, when they DO have such content in them, they are hidden from view. The average gamer isn't informed about their existence. Therefore people don't take notice of them and there is less discussion about them. What is there to talk about when you don't know it's there unless you follow the games very closely and don't know they exist? Now you can say the way Japanese games are marketed is mostly in Japan but that's not really the case when practically everybody uses the internet and (niche) publishers of Japanese games also rely on those specific gamers (pre-order incentives as bikini anyone?). Some gamers will take notice of it and spread it further to other unaware gamers. Japanese decide to focus on this to sell their games, they draw attention from these people on themselves.

I think when this topic first started (in general, not this thread), it was never aimed at gamers who enjoy these games. When gamers felt personally attacked and felt the need to defend the games out of fear of change, they were seen as sexual predators afterwards. When this topic was first brought up, it was expected that the majority would agree about it. Anyone can see it's silly and can be offensive to people. In fact, it is very common that it is offensive to people. In these cases, wouldn't you want to enjoy the same Japanese games, with the same quality and style, but not all of them feeling the need to seduce guys? Wouldn't you want better written stories and characters in general? Create characters that fit with the setting that is being created. There should be more room for these games, the distribution should be more balanced and respectful towards both genders.

Now as for the guys that DO like this aspect specifically and want this kind of pandering in as many games as possible, we obviously disagree and want different things. I'm just going to voice my opinion and hope we'll have more variety in characters and stories which is actually slowly happening because of these discussions. I want to tell those guys to share the fun and stop being selfish, where it feels like they want most games to cater to their needs.

 

[Harlock]

We are angry now with all this bulshit, but wait until the Arthur Gies review.

 

[StevePharma]

No we don't and the fact that you think that indicates a larger problem.

How is there not enough "diversity" in gaming?

Please clarify your statement.

 

[Kinyou]

Porn, toilet humor, and anything other than the highest of most serious art, should fuck off into space also.

Coincidentally this seems to be the exact direction that Saints Row 4 is heading

Gangstas in space part deux

 

[StevePharma]

Coincidentally this seems to be the exact direction that Saints Row 4 is heading

I can't wait to date Johnny Gat and make love in an awkward sex-scene in the Matrix.

(you can actually date in SR now)