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Killlzone Shadow Fall's SP runs at unlocked frame rate
- Thread starter SniperHunter
- Start date
So it does. Like I said maybe it's an encoding issue with the variable frame rate and the game itself seems smoother but the Giant Bomb comments don't seem to back that up. If you're insinuating that I'm a troll, just look up my post history.
No it CANNOT. This is a limitation of the DISPLAY technology *NOT* the console. They cannot circumvent display limitations. It's impossible and they have not achieved it.
perineumlick
Member
I'll give the benefit of the doubt to GG and their engine. That footage from Brazil was super smooth, smoother than all the other footage shown to date, and no tearing that I could see. I ain't worried.
I'd love to see this.
Since I'm not in reality land like you and I'm not a tech expert please elaborate on why triple buffer means no stutter. what does triple buffer has to do with stutter/judder?
Welcome to the arrogance of forum posters.
Actually, it is a general human trait, and if iirc my pscy classes correctly, and helps with survival. It can be accounted for on an individual level with practice in critical thinking and maturity, but in general everyone thinks they know enough about everything to always be right, or at least never be wrong.
for example:
velociraptor
Junior Member
I've played hundreds of games at unlocked framerate. Tomb Raider, Crysis 3, Far Cry 3, God of War 3, God Of War Ascension - it feels way better than 30FPS.
edit: I play games on a Samsung 3D TV. I don't notice any juddering on my display.
edit: I play games on a Samsung 3D TV. I don't notice any juddering on my display.
There isn't screen tearing and there will not be. Don't waste their time with that question as it will muddy the waters in regards to the real issue. It uses triple buffering so it won't tear.
Could someone explain what is this "judder" that people mentioned in this thread already ?
Sturrer i get
Variable framerate being problem for some people i get
Dropped or doubled frame being noticeable in high FPS i could believe that if it would be framerate less than 40-45 fps
So what is judder ?
How do you know is triple buffered? Any links to an article? And I'm not muddying the water, as a customer I have the right to know If the product will be up to my standards
Haha, that's cute.
Gotta say, for GAF being supposedly one of the most hardcore forums it always amazes me that so many people here can't even understand the most easy things and details about the technology behind their beloved games. So many people are just plain ignorant and therefore immune towards technical issues and shortocmings - good for them I guess but they should really stop claiming that more educated or sensible persons are automatically "elitists".
If GG decides for an unlocked framerate, I guess they really don't know what they are doing there. With an unlocked framerate an uneven experience will be GUARANTEED. You will have to adjust to different framerates in different playing sections and sometimes even within the same section. It is jarring. Like a poster before said, GOW with it's fixed camera is not as much affected by that decision as KZ:SF will be but even there it's quite bad. If you noticed it once, you just can't unsee and unfeel it.
perineumlick
Member
What about GOW3? Either I'm immune to judder, or it was smooth as shit for the most part.
SniperHunter
Banned
Link please
I will answer your question with question. Could you provide video of GOW3 that has noticeable sturrer ? I have 60Hz probably like your set and if you see it i should see it too.
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/40142006
51 minutes in.
Seriously no idea why all of the recent preview footage is like sub-20. I think somebody fucked up big time while encoding the media stock footage
If you watch a 24fps bluray on a screen that is not a true 120hz refresh rate--so pretty much any plasma as well as many lcds--and you look at a slow panning shot, say the begining of The Dark Night with the pan over the city, you will see a bit of jumpiness because 24 doesn't divide into 60 without extra frames. That is judder.
The power of the cloud
You are immune to judder.
This sort of appeal to authority stuff tends to crop up when it's someone favorite developer being questioned or what not.
You're ignoring all the examples of Guerilla messing up relatively simply things in the past. They've made plenty of objectively bad decisions from a tech standpoint before. The Renderer in Killzone 2, the net-code being terrible and having constant delay. They cleaned up those aspects in 3 but consistently made baffling design decisions for MP (this dates all the way back to KZ2 frankly). People make mistakes, huge companies with many people can make mistakes. We've seen it countless times, and to not acknowledge it is silly. Do I know better than that team? Not in general no, but that doesn't mean they will never make a sub par call due to pressure from on high or the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing.
Remains to be seen IF the unlocked framerate is an issue, but it's guilty until proven innocent after a fashion, especially with an FPS. That's not opinion, it's based on how display technology works and the fact that you're going to notice juddering much more from a first person view.
perineumlick
Member
I'm at work, but you can find it in one of the recent KZ preview threads.
If you played the game and didn't notice stutter how a youtube video will make you see it? also how triple buffer fixes stutter? I'd like to know.
for the love of god GOW3 doesn't have fixed camera. It moves constantly and reacts to player movement and actions (like changing quick for QTEs).
SniperHunter
Banned
Ahahaha I remember playing Unreal 2 like that back when it came out. I had an intel on board gpu and the pc was pure garbage. I got 10-15 fps throught the game and 60 fps while looking at the sky lol
Terbinator
Member
As a PC player primarily, i can't help but interpret the inclusion, more so the announcement via Twitter, as anything more than point scoring with people who don't experience this usually.
The last thing you want is a fluctuating FPS rate, less one that is fluctuating up to 60 and not down from it. The 30FPS minimum is there for a reason. The game will probably only hit 60 when you're looking at the space marines feet or the sky.
The last thing you want is a fluctuating FPS rate, less one that is fluctuating up to 60 and not down from it. The 30FPS minimum is there for a reason. The game will probably only hit 60 when you're looking at the space marines feet or the sky.
perineumlick
Member
Whew, that's good. Thought I might be ignorant or uneducated for a minute.
I am not talking about youtube. I am talking about direct feed 40-50 fps video (maybe gamersyde ?)
If you can "show" me sturrer. Slow down video or whatever you want. Sturrer is something that can be viewed and you can point sturrer in any video.
Yes that's why I and I think other people are reacting so much to this news, thanks for posting this. It should really be put in the OP.
Still hoping that in the future devs will prioritize a solid 60 over extra eye candy. I routinely turn off SSAO or AA on PC games to ensure I get a solid 60 that never drops. I can barely tell I even changed anything in most cases, but the performance gains I instantly notice once I turn them any "extras" off.
God of War 3 has plenty of judder so you're immune to it. However, it was minimized by the use of an on-rails camera that didn't wildly pan around the scene. It becomes much more of an issue when you have full camera control.
All recent videos are free from tearing. If they were running an unlocked framerate without v-sync or triple buffering we would see CONSTANT tearing. It would never not be tearing.
When your framerate does not divide evenly into your refresh rate frames must be repeated. At 30 fps on a 60 Hz display each frame is repeated twice. At 60 fps each frame is displayed just one time. If you display at 45 fps, however, the first frame will be displayed on the screen 1 time while the second frame will be displayed twice. It becomes worse when the framerate varies all over the place and you end up with repeating frames here and single frames there all out of order. The result is motion judder.
AstroZombie
Banned
Horrible 
I have no problems at all with this, I'm more than used to this with PC games. If it's consistently above 40 I most definitely prefer that than being chained to 30. People, as usual, are making a mess over nothing.
GG's latest official footage was encoded at 26fps or something. Someone screwed up. The Brazil footage looks perfect.
If it's consistently above 40 I most definitely prefer that than being chained to 30. People, as usual, are making a mess over nothing.GG's latest official footage was encoded at 26fps or something. Someone screwed up. The Brazil footage looks perfect.
It's a huge deal for me, though. I absolutely cannot stand motion judder. It destroys otherwise beautiful visuals for me.I have no problems at all with this, I'm more than used to this with PC games.
astroturfing
Member
i'm not too worried, if it's constantly above 30fps it will probably feel pretty good. as long as it never ever dips into 20fps.
honestly, even most games that claim to be locked 30/60fps just aren't. i don't even remember when was the last time i played anything on my PS3 or PC that didn't have obvious framerate variability. and it's fine.
honestly, even most games that claim to be locked 30/60fps just aren't. i don't even remember when was the last time i played anything on my PS3 or PC that didn't have obvious framerate variability. and it's fine.
Why in the hell wouldn't they lock the frame-rate? I noticed horrible stutter in the new Eurogamer 9 min video. If it's like that (and that's not an issue with the feed) then I am taking my money off Killzone. I play SP with 120Hz on and it will be worse for me. Nice screw up, Guerrilla.
I can easily achieve a completely rock solid framerate in most PC games and never accept anything else (will tweak until I achieve a perfect 60 or simply lock it at 30 fps using MSI Afterburner).
When they say "locked 30 fps", though, they are typically referring to a framerate limiter as in the framerate is prevented from going beyond 30 for the sake of consistency. If it were to range from 60 fps down to 20 fps the results would feel terrible.
Whoa now, it will NOT be like that. The video was encoded (stupidly) at 26 fps producing severe image judder. The end results will definitely be better than that.
I see in reality land you don't like answering questions are you? plus you want me to find a direct feed video and slow it down to show you what stutter is? lol.
If you can't see it or it doesn't bother you it's ok but don't act as a smartass next time.
Well, rather fixed compared to an FPS, isn't it? There are many scenes where you move kratos within a certain frame and the camera is kinda static, so the judder is less pronounced than it will be compared to a FPS or a 3rd person game with a free floating camera. The cinematic presentation of GoW hides many of the shortcomings regarding framerate, nevertheless, it is MORE than noticable. Take care, I never said that it's not there - but for someone who is not sensible regarding framerate issues, he will less likely notice it while playing GOW than playing KZ:SF.
Fluctuating framerates is one of the worst things that can happen to games because it destroys every attempt to deliver a throughout consistent experience and therefore a believable world. You are constantly taken out of immersion because the rendering engine reminds you that it's just a virtual game calculated by a CPU by introducing stutter.
Developers frequently make bad decisions because their motives are not in line with hardcore gamers who actually care about frame rates. On a 60hz display lets say you have a black screen with a white blob that simply moves from left to right. At 60fps it will be perfectly smooth, at 30fps it will appear to move at a constant speed but won't be perfectly smooth, at 15fps it will still move at a constant speed but will look like an animated flickbook. At 31->59 fps it will not move at a constant speed, possibly appearing to stutter from time to time. Think of it as that sort of 'smooth but jumping' movement you used to see in old film CGI, a result of the frame rate conversion from source to film.
Which is why we need G-Sync technology (or something like it) to become mainstream and appear in more than just crappy LCD monitors.
I suspect they believe they are doing the hardcore a favor as higher framerates will produce less input lag even if the end result suffers from image judder. So they probably focused heavily on getting the latency under control. If they cap it at 30 fps latency will increase but I'd sooner take a little bit of extra latency over an inconsistent framerate.
Yep. I see the PC screenshot thread and drool realizing that I simply cannot achieve any of that while playing as it always leads to dips. Just not worth it right now. I drop details and remove AA until my framerate is rock solid *OR* I increase image quality and lock at 30. Consistency is key...at least until G-Sync and the like can eliminate this issue altogether.
I don't know jack about GG, their engine, or this game. Just sayin, if an experienced dev says the game is better this way then that way, then that is probably the case.
Whether the game is any good or not, I have no clue. maybe unlocked just makes the game a bit less shitty, who knows. But simply saying "locked 30 always better than unlocked 30-60" is reductive.
OriginalThinking
Member
Ahhhh, this x 1000.
Yeah. I really don't get this. How many PC gamers lock their framerate? I doubt it is that many.
Drops can be quite noticeable when they happen, but if you have a good average FPS, then it is generally a better experience.
LiquidMetal14
hide your water-based mammals
The footage from the twitch stream a couple days ago looked more than fine.
I game at almost 60fps exclusively on PC. From what I've seen, I'm not even complaining about some little detail like this which no one is going to care about when they play this.
It's not 15fps or something.
Be aware that when you're talking about G-SYNC or other enthusiast things like triple buffering, you are talking to us, not your cousins nephew third removed who will be having a blast when he plays the launch games regardless of frame rate.
I game at almost 60fps exclusively on PC. From what I've seen, I'm not even complaining about some little detail like this which no one is going to care about when they play this.
It's not 15fps or something.
Be aware that when you're talking about G-SYNC or other enthusiast things like triple buffering, you are talking to us, not your cousins nephew third removed who will be having a blast when he plays the launch games regardless of frame rate.