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Mark Cerny on The Verge (GPU, elite controller, etc)

R

Razgreez

Member
AlexFlame116 said:
Hmm...all this talk about the Xbox Elite Controller is tempting me to buy one. Wish I could at least try it somewhere though instead of spending 150 dollars for something like that.
Click to expand...

Looking at long term owner reviews the elite controller looks like a pretty poor way to blow through $150
 
LordOfChaos

LordOfChaos

Member
Servbot24 said:
No it doesn't.
Click to expand...

No it doesn't make sense, or no it doesn't split it?

I mean in terms of performance, the PS4 Pro is going to be more stable in games aware of it than the PS4 going forward, just a reality of the higher end hardware. Sony mandated that at minimum it has to be on par with PS4 framerate, so a number of games going higher seems likely.

In that way, PS4 Pro already assists your gaming performance...So I don't see why a PS4 Elite controller would be different.

And things are already split up anyways, some people have high latency TVs, some people play on gaming monitors, some people use 7.1 audio, third party controllers already exist, etc...

To me it sounds like Sony just doesn't want to put in the effort right now.
 
V

vin-buc

Member
In this day - every controller should come with at least 2 buttons on the back by default. PERIOD.

We should have the choice whether to use them or not (and map them to whatever designation).
 
Sanpei

Sanpei

Member
Wait, what ?


Instead of using an entirely new GPU, Cerny said the PS4 Pro is using a "double-sized one." In effect, the new console has a second, identical GPU configured next to the original, with a 14 percent boost in frequency to 911MHz
Click to expand...
 
O

onQ123

Member
PLASTICA-MAN said:
I know this is a case of parallel rendering but like AFR, it creates some kind of input lag and delayed pictures with multiple GPUs, that is why with DX12, it is going back to SFR since the GPUs are fast enough these days which allow for stacking up memory from all those GPUs.and rendering a single frame in faster times. (but I don't think the two PS4 PRO GPUs have their own split VRAM in order to need a method for additionning them, they have shared meory from the start)

This is why parallel rendering is worrying me.
Click to expand...

I think that's only a problem for a PC but not when the chip is made with the processors basically connected as one.
 
A

Arkeband

Banned
Do we have any idea how loud this thing is going to be? I'm trying to figure out if this thing is going to be a hair dryer in my living room and if I'm going to have to drill extra airholes in my entertainment center.
 
F

flkraven

Member
The haves and haves not thing is a stupid argument considering the advertise the third-party, licensed peripherals on their official site. On top of that the PS4 Pro vs a regular PS4 is quite literally haves vs have nots.
 
Y

Yopis

Member
They are scared of the backlash from poor console owners. Sad they wont make a quality controller. Had 2 DS4's wear out in me.
 
A

Atomski

Member
Couldn't they make a better quality controller with better battery life.. charge a bit more and have no effect on competitive gameplay.

Just seems like a poor excuse.. is the elite controller really give that much of an edge?
 
amdb00mer

amdb00mer

Member
LordOfChaos said:
I know there was a thread on his Eurogamer interview, but there's a few additional details on this one, like why there's no PS4 Elite controller

http://www.theverge.com/2016/10/20/13350476/sony-ps4-pro-mark-cerny-4k-games-psvr-graphics



(doesn't make sense to me, as the PS4 Pro already splits the PS4 audience, already moving towards the philosophy of the Elite controller...And PSVR, and that licensed keyboard controller...)
Click to expand...

I agree OP. That quote about the have's and have nots. SMH
"We need to be quite careful to the enhancements we add to the controller. But it’s not the sort of thing that’s going to create have’s and have nots."

Ugh, you (Sony) and MS just did that by releasing the Xbox One S (HDR and UHD Blu-ray not possible on regular X1) and the PS4 Pro (4K gaming and high frame rates and detail not possible on PS4). It may not be a controller, but these iterative systems are causing have's and have nots Mark.
 
vpance

vpance

Member
Pro = 2 slims duct taped?

Not sure if it actually has a 2nd separate GPU, although I too have speculated that it might. Maybe Cerny is just dumbing it down for the audience by explaining it that way.
 
G

GhostTrick

Banned
onQ123 said:
People did not know that PS4 Pro was going to be 8.4TF FP16 & they did not know that it would be the PS4 APU + a new GPU






RvCJvlO.jpg
Click to expand...



You really have a talent to twist words in your convenient way. :")
There's no second GPU here, that's just the fat, 36CU GPU, which either runs with all of its CU activated OR with CU deactivated. The same way PS4 had 2CU disabled. Disabling CU always has been a thing.

Heck, your Mark Cerny quote is The Verge being quote. Here's Cerny's quote:
Instead of using an entirely new GPU, Cerny said the PS4 Pro is using a "double-sized one."
Click to expand...
Cerny's words are quoted here.
 
J

jimboton

Member
0 sense, since they still allow third parties like scuf and others to release prohibitively expensive modified controllers. It just means 'have nots' won't have a chance to enjoy paddle functionality (more or less) affordably and instead have to chance an expensive and unreliable aftermarket mod that like as not will break in a few months use.

Disappointing.
 
V

vg260

Member
I don't buy their response on the Elite controller.
Like no EA access on PS4, I'm sure they have their reasons, but I see both as both bad stances for customers by not giving an option.
 
B

boneyjangles

Member
"We need to be quite careful to the enhancements we add to the controller"

I agree with you Mr Cerny, I think you are a genius in general, but some other people at Sony don't agree with you considering they licensed that HORI TAC 4 keyboard/mouse abomination. I don't want to play PS4 multiplayer if i'm playing against people at a desk with that kind of setup. Losing isn't fun.
 
X

X-Frame

Member
I'm very disappointed to hear the news about no Elite controller. It really doesn't make any sense whatsoever to me.
 
O

onQ123

Member
GhostTrick said:
You really have a talent to twist words in your convenient way. :")
There's no second GPU here, that's just the fat, 36CU GPU, which either runs with all of its CU activated OR with CU deactivated. The same way PS4 had 2CU disabled. Disabling CU always has been a thing.

Heck, your Mark Cerny quote is The Verge being quote. Here's Cerny's quote:

Cerny's words are quoted here.
Click to expand...


So I'm twisting words?

Standard PS4 games will play just the same unless devs patch them
For the more than 700 or so existing PS4 games, Cerny said the goal was to ensure those titles played smoothly no matter what. That’s why the Pro incorporates an identical GPU. Because the new console has "the old GPU next to a mirror version of itself," Sony can support existing games with a simple trick: "We just turn off the second GPU," he said. Developers can patch these titles to boost graphics and performance in very subtle ways. But unless you have a 4K television, the difference will not be substantial.
Click to expand...

http://www.theverge.com/2016/10/20/13350476/sony-ps4-pro-mark-cerny-4k-games-psvr-graphics
 
U

UrbanRats

Member
Streaming may be the future, but it aint the present if you care about image quality (and if you dont why even care about hdr or 4k?).
It's so frustrating.
 
R

RoKKeR

Member
Razgreez said:
Looking at long term owner reviews the elite controller looks like a pretty poor way to blow through $150
Click to expand...
I've had it for 11 months and am not sure what you are referring to...?

Not really buying their reasoning on the controller for this one.
 
R

rambis

Banned
onQ123 said:
So I'm twisting words?



http://www.theverge.com/2016/10/20/13350476/sony-ps4-pro-mark-cerny-4k-games-psvr-graphics
Click to expand...

Yeah I was gonna say Cerney is definitely referring to the PS4P GPU as a dual GPU setup. I think people are getting confused by thinking of this in a discrete PC GPU sense.

Ricky Ricardo said:
"We just turn off half the GPU and run it at something quite close to the original GPU."

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/d...tation-4-pro-how-sony-made-a-4k-games-machine

From the horse's mouth
Click to expand...

His quote is also "from the horses mouth". I think people are getting a bit too caught up in the verbage.
 
A

AllIsOneIsNone

Banned
RoKKeR said:
I've had it for 11 months and am not sure what you are referring to...?
Click to expand...

Yea...the elite controller is by far the best controller I've ever used. I use it on my PC, One, and PS4. The quality is unmatched, it's a better version of an already fantastic controller, and the paddles are straight up awesome for shooters (and racers I hear), it lets you keep your thumbs on the analogs at all times. I hope they become standard.
 
O

onQ123

Member
Ricky Ricardo said:
"We just turn off half the GPU and run it at something quite close to the original GPU."

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/d...tation-4-pro-how-sony-made-a-4k-games-machine

From the horse's mouth
Click to expand...


The GPU is made from having the PS4 GPU with a mirror of it's self right next to it. it's one GPU made from 2 PS4 GPUs. turning off half of the GPU is turning off the mirrored GPU of the PS4 GPU.


Like the 8 core Jaguar CPU is 2 4 core Jaguars but they still call it one CPU & if they said turn off half of the CPU they would be turning off one of the 4 core jaguars.
 
G

GhostTrick

Banned
onQ123 said:
So I'm twisting words?



http://www.theverge.com/2016/10/20/13350476/sony-ps4-pro-mark-cerny-4k-games-psvr-graphics
Click to expand...

That's called "Hardware for dummies". Basically he's just using simple words when talking about second GPU.

Here are Cerny's words:
"First, we doubled the GPU size by essentially placing it next to a mirrored version of itself, sort of like the wings of a butterfly. That gives us an extremely clean way to support the existing 700 titles," Cerny explains, detailing how the Pro switches into its 'base' compatibility mode. "We just turn off half the GPU and run it at something quite close to the original GPU."

In Pro mode, the full GPU is active, and running at 911MHz - a 14 per cent bump in frequency, turning a 2x boost in GPU power to a 2.24x increase. However, CPU doesn't receive the same increase in raw capabilities - and Sony believes that interoperability with the existing PS4 is the primary reason for sticking with the same, relatively modest Jaguar CPU clusters.
Click to expand...

So yes, you're overeaching... again.
Basically they doubled the CUs.
 
K

Kuosi

Member
The Pro gpu is also Polaris chip, not the older GNC one in original ps4 with higher clock, so by no means it's 2x ps4 gpu
 
O

onQ123

Member
GhostTrick said:
That's called "Hardware for dummies". Basically he's just using simple words when talking about second GPU.

Here are Cerny's words:


So yes, you're overeaching... again.
Basically they doubled the CUs.
Click to expand...

I guess he didn't dumb it down enough because you still don't get it.
 
LordOfChaos

LordOfChaos

Member
Kuosi said:
The Pro gpu is also Polaris chip, not the older GNC one in original ps4 with higher clock, so by no means it's 2x ps4 gpu
Click to expand...

The wording on the Eurogamer article was funny. He said they took from the power saving features of Polaris, not that it was Polaris itself.

I think it's a franken GCN 1.1/1.2/1.4 type deal. The PS4 one was a mix of the features between 1.1 and 1.2 (like the 8 ACES), and he said they ensured 100% compatibility with that, in PS4 Pro mode I assume they further enable the new compression and power saving features when the other half of the GPU is turned on.

Wasn't Cerny supposed to have a conference on the GPU soon?
 
P

PandaShake

Member
Some people in this thread doesn't seem to understand what splitting the user base means. The base PS4 runs the same games the PS4 pro can. There are no incompatibility issues nor are there multiplayer advantages after restrictions. The user base is split when hardware revisions has new controls and better specs making games exclusive to the new hardware such as Xenoblade for the new 3ds requiring users to upgrade. The PS4 pro remains optional.
 
K

Kuosi

Member
LordOfChaos said:
The wording on the Eurogamer article was funny. He said they took from the power saving features of Polaris, not that it was Polaris itself.

I think it's a franken GCN 1.1/1.2/1.4 type deal. The PS4 one was a mix of the features between 1.1 and 1.2 (like the 8 ACES), and he said they ensured 100% compatibility with that, in PS4 Pro mode I assume they further enable the new compression and power saving features when the other half of the GPU is turned on.

Wasn't Cerny supposed to have a conference on the GPU soon?
Click to expand...

You make a good point, it could be an older model with some polaris features, haven't heard of GPU conference, would be interesting to hear what kind of solution it is.
 
G

GhostTrick

Banned
onQ123 said:
"We just turn off the second GPU,"
Click to expand...



So yeah, what to trust ? Eurogamer, in which Cerny talk about Full GPU, Half GPU, Doubling the CU (hence why the "we basically mirrored the GPU") or The Verge, in which basically Cerny has been dumbing down its comparison ?
 
Andodalf

Andodalf

Banned
double the CUs =/= two GPUs. Everyone thought you meant the APU + a discrete GPU, which I think you still do? it's pretty clear this is double the GPU CUs inside an APU. You were kinda right about how the power would be used, but it's not at all what you seem to intend.
 
O

onQ123

Member
Sanpei said:
What happened to Polaris architecture ? RX480 ?
Click to expand...

They used some things from Polaris & some things from beyond Polaris (Maybe Vega)

"We can have custom features and they can eventually end up on the [AMD] roadmap," Cerny says proudly. "So the ACEs... I was very passionate about asynchronous compute, so we did a lot of work there for the original PlayStation 4 and that ended up getting incorporated into subsequent AMD GPUs, which is nice because the PC development community gets very familiar with those techniques. It can help us when the parts of GPUs that we are passionate about are used in the PC space."

In actual fact, two new AMD roadmap features debut in the Pro, ahead of their release in upcoming Radeon PC products - presumably the Vega GPUs due either late this year or early next year.



"One of the features appearing for the first time is the handling of 16-bit variables - it's possible to perform two 16-bit operations at a time instead of one 32-bit operation," he says, confirming what we learned during our visit to VooFoo Studios to check out Mantis Burn Racing. "In other words, at full floats, we have 4.2 teraflops. With half-floats, it's now double that, which is to say, 8.4 teraflops in 16-bit computation. This has the potential to radically increase performance."




A work distributor is also added to the GPU design, designed to improve efficiency through more intelligent distribution of work.


"Once a GPU gets to a certain size, it's important for the GPU to have a centralised brain that intelligently distributes and load-balances the geometry rendered. So it's something that's very focused on, say, geometry shading and tessellation, though there is some basic vertex work as well that it will distribute," Mark Cerny shares, before explaining how it improves on AMD's existing architecture.

"The work distributor in PS4 Pro is very advanced. Not only does it have the fairly dramatic tessellation improvements from Polaris, it also has some post-Polaris functionality that accelerates rendering in scenes with many small objects... So the improvement is that a single patch is intelligently distributed between a number of compute units, and that's trickier than it sounds because the process of sub-dividing and rendering a patch is quite complex."

Beyond that, we're moving into the juicy stuff - the custom hardware that Sony has introduced, elements of the 'secret sauce' that allow the Pro graphics core to punch so far above its weight. In creating 4K framebuffers, a lot of the technological underpinnings are actually based on advanced anti-aliasing work with the creation of new buffers that can be exploited in a number of ways.

Right now, post-process anti-aliasing techniques like FXAA or SMAA have their limits. Edge detection accuracy varies dramatically. Searches based on high contrast differentials, depth or normal maps - or a combination - all have limitations. Sony had fashioned its own, highly innovative solution.

"We'd really like to know where the object and triangle boundaries are when performing spatial anti-aliasing, but contrast, Z [depth] and normal are all imperfect solutions," Cerny says. "We'd also like to track the information from frame to frame because we're performing temporal anti-aliasing. It would be great to know the relationship between the previous frame and the current frame better. Our solution to this long-standing problem in computer graphics is the ID buffer. It's like a super-stencil. It's a separate buffer written by custom hardware that contains the object ID."
Click to expand...
 
B

Brad Grenz

Member
Andodalf said:
double the CUs =/= two GPUs. Everyone thought you meant the APU + a discrete GPU, which I think you still do? it's pretty clear this is double the GPU CUs inside an APU. You were kinda right about how the power would be used, but it's not at all what you seem to intend.
Click to expand...

His parallel rendering theory is total nonsense as well, actually. And his FP16 conspiracy theory about Scorpio is also BS.
 
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