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[xenorevlis]

Smoke granades arent better, they look somehow worse than KZ2 particles from granades, even though they are probably higher res.

There are no volumetric particles in that game.

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Wait what? If You're talking about U4 to SC comparison, read the post again. And yes, having a model that is rendering individual strains of hair, make hair automatically much more superior to stacked hair blocks.
It also showed at what fidelity they are aiming for.

You said that in general, The Order 1886 has poor particles, then continuously mention smoke grenades and ignore the dust, smog, smoke stacks, low clouds, and so on - all which are happening at the same time and visible in the first 15 minutes of the game.

My experience working with TressFX and seeing my friend at NVIDIA try to implement hair works into his personal project has been very insightful. You can call it more technically advanced or more complicated, but this in no way means it is "automatically better" as the resulting look will be affected by the tech and stacks or other methods can produce wonderful results, including what was seen in U4, AC:U, and FFXV. Hyperbole is not your friend.

The feel of pre-rendering CGI. All the bells and whistles are the things that make pre-rendered CGI years-light above from real-time. But if The Order still used cubemaps for most of refractions...

Again, we've all already established the reality that offline rendering will always be able to out-do real-time, thanks to physics and money allowing immense detail to be poured over a lot of time in every single frame. However, the OP is correct in saying we have definitely reached a point previously thought much further away.

You know what? I wont argue with you if Infamous is superior in this department or not, but calling them not impressive like they are some cheap effects when even Cliffy gave them a nod in his stream... I don't like this hyperbole, he could have said particles are great but they are even better in Infamous, but calling them not impressive is going too far, but he likes to do it with non Crytek games and PS games specifically so I'm not too surprised. (although he is generally a good user don't get me wrong, just seems a little biased)

Infamous is pretty, but the particle systems have limitations imposed by the open world, such as how many lights actually emit from the particles and how the atmosphere in the game reacts to it (barely). Loved the game, but I'm expecting Sucker Punch to hit it out out of the park in their next, less-rushed outing

 

[KKRT00]

You said that in general, The Order 1886 has poor particles

No, I didnt.

, then continuously mention smoke grenades and ignore the dust, smog, smoke stacks, low clouds, and so on - all which are happening at the same time and visible in the first 15 minutes of the game.

Smog and dust are rendered generally in different way than 'dynamic' particles. There are many games, even on past gen consoles that did 'atmospheric' particles well.

My experience working with TressFX and seeing my friend at NVIDIA try to implement hair works into his personal project has been very insightful. You can call it more technically advanced or more complicated, but this in no way means it is "automatically better" as the resulting look will be affected by the tech and stacks or other methods can produce wonderful results, including what was seen in U4, AC:U, and FFXV. Hyperbole is not your friend.

But it is superior, You get much higher fidelity.
And they wont slap default TressFX hair and call it a day in SC, if thats what You mean.

Infamous is pretty, but the particle systems have limitations imposed by the open world, such as how many lights actually emit from the particles and how the atmosphere in the game reacts to it (barely). Loved the game, but I'm expecting Sucker Punch to hit it out out of the park in their next, less-rushed outing

But in The Order the only particles i've seen that emits light were in last boss fight.
The thermite spark particles do not emit light

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I have Infamous:SS myself and can't see how its particles are superior over The Order's Thermite Rifle for example, the effect looks incredible, I think i can count on Cliffy on this subject, no offense.

I've spent a lot of time in CE SDK with particles and The Order's thermite gun effect is basically just normal sparks with glow turn up to eleven. Its not even close to fidelity of Warframe, Infamous or Metro devs put into their particles.
Some of my old videos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2LMy8GxC4Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1ohENg6ahk

But lets end this off-topic. You like it, thats fine.

 

[xenorevlis]

You implied it did particles poorly several times. Look, I know you're a huge CE fan and that's great, but don't keep twisting things to fit your narrative. I only mentioned Infamous and lighting to respond to that person - not in comparison to The Order.

I noted where you can find an abundance of particle systems beyond the thermite gun and smoke grenades, and it was in the very beginning, when Gallahad is stumbling out of the building, as you can see the light cutting through volumetric atmospheric smoke and dust which gets trapped in the lens. All things that only recently became a "thing" in real time, but were a staple of pre-rendered videos.

You can keep shouting "superior" all you want but a rendering technology looking and performing better than another simply based on the fact that it simulates strands of hair in real-time does not make it automatically better, no matter how many times you try to convince yourself of this. It is down to the artists, the animators, and the overall rendering pipeline in play for each title.

Me liking a game or not is not part of this conversation. Aspects relative to the discussion of visual quality and real-time rendering with approximations of what we get in offline rendered products, is. I've sat back many times on this forum only to watch you make ridiculous statements time and time again, so I felt that engaging you in discussion would be good.

However, if you feel it's off topic to discuss graphics in a thread about how far graphics have come... well, I can't stop you

 

[Dictator93]

le systems beyond the thermite gun and smoke grenades, and it was in the very beginning, when Gallahad is stumbling out of the building, as you can see the light cutting through volumetric atmospheric smoke and dust which gets trapped in the lens. All thin

The game doesnt use volumetric particles or actual simulate anything of that nature. It does have volumetric point and directional lights though.

 

[xenorevlis]

The game doesnt use volumetric particles or actual simulate anything of that nature. It does have volumetric point and directional lights though.

Yes, but those interact with particle systems. Either that or they did a fantastic job achieving this rendering situation through another method. I've still not delved into the behind-the-scenes included with the game, or even completed the game for that matter. However, I wanted to point out what is present early on in the game which he claimed was either low res or just not very good, which is like me saying Crysis 1 was not a good looking game when it came out. Yes, small particle effects are lower res here and there, just as some of the textures have streamed in a bit late, but this is RAD's very first console game and in-motion has fooled MANY people into thinking it was offline rendered. Both out of my personal circle and among friends who are artists and animators at various companies.

 

[EvB]

CGi rendering isn't a static thing either, every time I see a new Pixar or Dreamworks movie I'm surprised that something incremental has improved since the last one I saw.

 

[Crossing Eden]

CGi rendering isn't a static thing either, every time I see a new Pixar or Dreamworks movie I'm surprised that something incremental has improved since the last one I saw.

Yep the tech is always improving, just look at the hair rendering and facial animation in Inside Out.

 

[xenorevlis]

I still remember the stepping stone that was The Matrix: Reloaded with it's rubbery Neo and Agent Smiths. How far we've come, that we can pull off a film like Rise of the Planet of the Apes with a huge lot of realistic apes and even some CG humans for scenes unsafe to film with actual actors (or easier / less costly).

 

[KKRT00]

You implied it did particles poorly several times.

No, i didnt, read my posts again. I said they are not impressive. I dont use black and white / bad and amazing scale.

when Gallahad is stumbling out of the building, as you can see the light cutting through volumetric atmospheric smoke and dust which gets trapped in the lens.

Thats volumetric light shafts, not volumetric smoke. There are only several games [LBP and some games with Physx] that used volumetric smoke and even in those games it wasnt fully volumetric.

 

[xenorevlis]

No, i didnt, read my posts again. I said they are not impressive. I dont use black and white / bad and amazing scale.

I think I already made my point. No need to re-read your posts, especially all the ones with several edits made to them.You're entitled to your opinion as much as I am, but don't feel bad when people engage you in discussion here on GAF. Even if they are calling you out on something, and you both back up your claims with whatever evidence, there is no need to say that it's better not go "off topic" anymore, especially when this was all on topic.

The light shafts are indeed volumetric, but they also interact with particle systems such as those used to create atmosphere from sewers, etc.

 

[KKRT00]

I think I already made my point. No need to re-read your posts, especially all the ones with several edits made to them.

I always make edits in my post, but i never change the context. Mostly i add new stuff or fix some language mistakes. Like i've noticed that last part of my big post what quoted wrongly.

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It does have volumetric point and directional lights though.

Surprisingly, lamps characters are holding with volumetric shafts, are not really volumetric, its just an effect like projector lights in CE.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

As mentioned above, don't forget linear level design.

On a side note, I feel I'm taking crazy pills though with the amount of praise TO1886 is getting for its graphics. I just don't get it. It looks good and filmic because of the post processing and tonemap etc, but not outstanding.

I think it's because there's really nothing quite like it.

I know it's all due to post processing masking a lot of the rough edges, which is why something like the real-time cutscenes of Assassin's Creed: Unity (on PC) may even be more impressive, but I still think The Order looks incredible.

I think it also deserves a lot of praise for having absolutely zero issues with visible LOD transitions, texture loading, etc. It also has very few issues with clipping or other visual bugs despite their being a lot of models colliding together. Other stuff like the real time transformations (Lycans, for example) was extremely impressive to me.

 

[Toxa]

star wars 1313 engine was very impressive

i'm so sad the game is now canceled

 

[Saintguine]

No.

The amount of power required for true Ambient Occlusion and heavy amounts of supersampling is too much, even for the top of the line PCs.