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Next-gen Racing Graphics Face-off | (Next-gen means current-gen)

The Porsche contract is something that has never made sense to me. EA really didn't get much sublicensing out of it. And it's not like anyone is saying "I'm going to buy NFS for Porsche". They aren't going to say that for any manufacturer really. I mean GT became the biggest racer on the planet without Lamborghini, Porsche, or Ferrari on the roster. They didn't even have Ford in GT1 and it didn't matter.
 
Feel like I am really missing something special by not having this game and more importantly PSplus.

Visually its very special. Gameplay wise not so special, but I'm having a lot of fun with it.
Its one of my favorite arcade racers in recent years and the visuals really make the races more thrilling than in any other game.

Just look at it:
arynpq.gif


vjambg.gif


jmvmds.gif
 

ShapeGSX

Member
Visually its very special. Gameplay wise not so special, but I'm having a lot of fun with it.
Its one of my favorite arcade racers in recent years and the visuals really make the races more thrilling than in any other game.

Just look at it:
arynpq.gif

I never noticed that there's no weather in the rear view mirror. :)
 

le-seb

Member
I never noticed that there's no weather in the rear view mirror. :)
Like I've said earlier, they're showing a simplified version of the scene.
You won't find any particle or atmospheric effects reproduced there, and they will also not reproduce some bigger objects, like confetti showers, blossoms, butterflies, birds, etc.
 
I never noticed that there's no weather in the rear view mirror. :)

Track detail is also considerably lower in rear view mirror. Unlike the side mirrors it also isn't a real mirror. Its just a surface that displays a view from the rear. But I think thats the case in every racer.
 

HTupolev

Member
In this case, and many others, the game is simply not refreshing what should be seen in the mirror when you move the camera.
What's shown here is certainly accurate from the driver's point of view.

I'm not sure it's that hard, because the game does it in real time when you're driving (although it's a simplified version, with many objects and effects removed.)
But yes, I wish they were refreshed too.
It's not an issue of not refreshing.

That reflection isn't a screen-space reflection, it's an actual render of the scene. But since doing a planar reflection for each individual mirror would be a ton of extra graphical work, it looks like they just do a single cubemap render from the center of your car and use it for all the mirrors (and for the car body, when SSR fails).

Track detail is also considerably lower in rear view mirror.
Very typical. Running a full geometry pass of the scene is expensive, even at low resolutions. Most games seem to not render things like small foliage in these reflections. Some games have a very limited draw distance in the mirror, like Ridge Racer 7. Some games refresh reflections at lower framerate, like Forza. Some games send their visibility solutions into overdrive and have hilarious amounts of pop-out, like GT5's magical invisible terrain of the Eiger Nordwand K Trail.
 

le-seb

Member
It's not an issue of not refreshing.

That reflection isn't a screen-space reflection, it's an actual render of the scene. But since doing a planar reflection for each individual mirror would be a ton of extra graphical work, it looks like they just do a single cubemap render from the center of your car and use it for all the mirrors (and for the car body, when SSR fails).
ICi51.png


I thought SSR could only be used with things visible on screen.
So how could they use SSR to render the mirror views, when this part of the scene is not rendered on the screen?

I don't get your explanation about how they render the mirror views through a cubemap, though.
I just can't visualize the thing.
 

Noobcraft

Member
I thought SSR could only be used with things visible on screen.
So how could they use SSR to render the mirror views, when this part of the scene is not rendered on the screen?

I don't get your explanation about how they render the mirror views through a cubemap, though.
I just can't visualize the thing.
From certain angles the side mirrors would be reflecting something drawn on the screen (the side of a car for instance). I don't think I've ever seen a racer has a car that reflects itself in the side mirrors.

I can't even think of an example that reflects the back of the car accurately (things like spoilers/wings) in the rear view mirror either. GTAV might though.
 

HTupolev

Member
I thought SSR could only be used with things visible on screen.
So how could they use SSR to render the mirror views, when this part of the scene is not rendered on the screen?
I never said that they're using SSR for the mirrors (I explicitly said that they don't).

I don't get your explanation about how they render the mirror views through a cubemap, though.
I just can't visualize the thing.
What I think is going on is that every frame, they render a cubemap with a camera placed at the center of the car. The cubemap is then used as, well, a cubemap. It's not precise at the mirrors because it was rendered at the middle of the car. So in that particular shot, instead of the mirrors showing what was behind and to the left of the mirror (the body of the car), it shows what was behind and to the left of the car (the bridge railing).
 

ShamePain

Banned
From certain angles the side mirrors would be reflecting something drawn on the screen (the side of a car for instance). I don't think I've ever seen a racer has a car that reflects itself in the side mirrors.

I can't even think of an example that reflects the back of the car accurately (things like spoilers/wings) in the rear view mirror either. GTAV might though.

Early on driveclub was supposed to have proper mirror reflection but I remember reading it was cut out for better gameplay because of increased visibility.
You can see in 2013 footage.
driveclub.jpg

LIFESTYLE-willkommen-im-club-kennwort-driveclub-03.jpg

drive_club_image_2.jpg
 

Noobcraft

Member
Early on driveclub was supposed to have proper mirror reflection but I remember reading it was cut out for better gameplay because of increased visibility.
You can see in 2013 footage.
That's pretty cool. I wish they left that in because it's a nice detail. It should be there in Sim racers especially because it's simply more realistic.

Also I recorded a couple videos and took some screenshots meant for comparing Forza Horizon 2 and Forza Motorsport 5.
Replay mode:
screenshot-original-1s6uy3.png

screenshot-original-1x5ut7.png

screenshot-original-1wiuic.png

screenshot-original-1eyuok.png


Forza 5:
https://account.xbox.com/en-US/game...aft&scid=a72e0e3d-ce31-4ae0-89b8-741c625ab197

Forza Horizon 2 - I didn't even win the race D:
https://account.xbox.com/en-US/game...aft&scid=788f0100-a4bc-46c3-b19b-d1001a96545b
 

saladine1

Junior Member
I know this is the next gen *graphics* face off, but I advise everyone to give DiRT Rally a good listen. The sound engine is absolutely amazing, it blows everything else out of the water and nothing comes close.

Also, in terms of simulation it's also great. Apparently air pressure/thinning has an actual effect on power in the game, so when Pikes Peak comes out your car will become weaker as it goes up.

DiRT Rally has the best sound design ever implemented into a racing game imo. And it's still early!

I mean, they pretty much got everything right. From the exhaust sputtter/crackling, the BOV's, road/gravel effects, reverb, doppler, resonance,shifting..etc are simply astounding.

https://youtu.be/fD8DruhWgPE?t=29
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBCUbsk3_DQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DUmBDYuwkw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KKmyzeCmcw
 

le-seb

Member
They don't. I never said that they're using SSR for the mirrors (I explicitly said that they don't).
Ah okay, it's just that your phrasing let me believe you were under the impression that I thought they were using SSR.

What I think is going on is that every frame, they render a cubemap with the camera placed at the center of the car. The cubemap is then used as, well, a cubemap. It's not precise at the mirrors because it was rendered at the middle of the car. So in that particular shot, instead of the mirrors showing what was behind and to the left of the mirror (the body of the car), it shows what was behind and to the left of the car (the bridge railing).
My tiny brain can't see how the scene would be rendered onto a cube, here.

But if I'm nevertheless following your thoughts, you think that they're rendering a single scene with a fixed camera on the 'roof' of the car pointing straight behind, and cut/crop this render into as many pieces as they need to match the cars' mirrors, right?

Let's see if we can check that with an example from gameplay...

So here's what you're supposed to see when looking back:
ZGy5yM.jpg


And here's what's rendered in the cockpit view:
xG2SgE.jpg


The McLaren F1 LM is an interesting car, because it has two inside mirrors.
Quick and dirty try to get the perspective right, for comparison:
2jgAyx.png


So, yeah, it looks like a single render split into the two mirrors.
 

HTupolev

Member
My tiny brain can't see how the scene would be rendered onto a cube, here.
Imagine looking straight up. Render what you see into a square frame with a field of view of 90 degrees.

Now tilt your head down by 90 degrees. Render what you see into a square frame with a field of view of 90 degrees.

Now turn to the left by 90 degrees. Render what you see into a square frame with a field of view of 90 degrees.

Now turn to the left by 90 degrees. Render what you see into a square frame with a field of view of 90 degrees.

Now turn to the left by 90 degrees. Render what you see into a square frame with a field of view of 90 degrees.

Now tilt your head down by 90 degrees. Render what you see into a square frame with a field of view of 90 degrees.

//==============================

Each square frame you rendered is the light coming at you through one face of a virtual "cube" around your "camera." The data stored in all six frames together constitutes a cubemap.

The reason I think they'd be looking at more directions than just "behind the car" is that cars in modern racing games tend to be able to reflect off-screen geometry off of their entire bodies, not just rear-facing mirrors.
 

le-seb

Member
I understand the principle of cube mapping, but still can't see it applied here.
You can clearly see that there's some overlapping scenery on the views.
 

HTupolev

Member
I understand the principle of cube mapping, but still can't see it applied here.
You obviously understand how a rear-facing render would be applied to the rearview mirror from the cockpit perspective. The only real difference between that and a real-time cubemap is that the cubemap would have a wider field of view. And by using a wide field of view, you can use the rendered reflection for real-time reflections for the entire car body (not just rear-facing mirrors).

Driveclub uses SSR on car bodies, but when the SSR can't find anything to reflect, it's good to switch over to another type of reflection. I guess I'll have to look at it again, but I was fairly certain that Driveclub's cars can reflect off-screen track geometry (and the image that sparked this debate suggests as much).
 

Noobcraft

Member
You obviously understand how a rear-facing render would be applied to the rearview mirror from the cockpit perspective. The only real difference between that and a real-time cubemap is that the cubemap would have a wider field of view. And by using a wide field of view, you can use the rendered reflection for real-time reflections for the entire car body (not just rear-facing mirrors).

Driveclub uses SSR on car bodies, but when the SSR can't find anything to reflect, it's good to switch over to another type of reflection. I guess I'll have to look at it again, but I was fairly certain that Driveclub's cars can reflect off-screen track geometry (and the image that sparked this debate suggests as much).
Yeah it definitely does. Photomode would look really weird without it lol.
 
Speaking of dust particles, Dirt Rally does it very nicely: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLlKG0btok8
Jeebus this looks good.

DiRT Rally has the best sound design ever implemented into a racing game imo. And it's still early!

I mean, they pretty much got everything right. From the exhaust sputtter/crackling, the BOV's, road/gravel effects, reverb, doppler, resonance,shifting..etc are simply astounding.

https://youtu.be/fD8DruhWgPE?t=29
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBCUbsk3_DQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DUmBDYuwkw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KKmyzeCmcw
These are amazing too.
 
It's the usual in-engine bollocks. It's using PS4 assets rendered at a very high resolution and then downsampled.

Heard them saying its just the replay feature.
Do we have some good replay feature videos for comparison? Search youtube but only found shit ones.
 
Regarding the DriveClub trailers, as jett said they're super sampled or something, it's very obvious if you look at them, perfect AA while the actual game isn't as clean.
 

eso76

Member
Yep.

I just found out that because of tessellation some models are actually more detailed on the track than in Photo Travel. (at least the exterior is)

Still kinda crazy tho

holy crap.

(once GT7 is shown, this thread will be locked. It will blow our eyeballs)
 

Pifje

Member

I just sometimes hate how the environments look in Project CARS. Cardboard people, plain looking trees, plain looking ground and grass, plain textures, plain shadows and lighting. And yes, you can see all that even during racing. This isn't about the replay camera perspective.

Tweaking everything to maximum and ultra settings should give me corresponding graphical quality. That only looks horrible.

In contrast, the environments do make the cars look better.
 
Went back a bit to DC yesterday and holy shit, it's light night and day compared to Project Cars. The lighting, the trees, the weather effects, the environment as a whole, its all on another level. Also people saying the IQ is not good are crazy. I had issues with the AA at launch, but it's very very good now.
 
Went back a bit to DC yesterday and holy shit, it's light night and day compared to Project Cars. The lighting, the trees, the weather effects, the environment as a whole, its all on another level. Also people saying the IQ is not good are crazy. I had issues with the AA at launch, but it's very very good now.

The IQ is the same as it has been since launch, and it really isn't that great.
 

le-seb

Member
It really isn't, I'm not sure what AA they use but it always has a hazy look to it, which suggests FXAA to me. The difference in clarity between that and Horizon 2 is insane. H2 is pristinely sharp thanks to the 4xMSAA.
There's more to it than FXAA:
Alex Perkins said:
It's a mixture. There's a pixel-based system that we're using, there's a temporal-based system, there's FXAA and there's actually a material-based system as well. We've only got four systems in place and we've got another for the key points that we don't quite hit. We obsess about the small details, so we're getting another one to go on top of that, to get on top of the very final image quality issues.

But you're right saying that it hasn't been upgraded since launch.
We've had this discussion several times in the game's OT, made comparisons and couldn't see any evidence for a change.
Some lighting conditions and camera angles will simply make the jaggies more visible than others.
 

VanWinkle

Member
Macro blocking from the jpeg compression doesn't make this particular shot a good example. It is a pretty shot though.

You are right, but the lack of aliasing is apparent. Would obviously be better if the shot were uncompressed, though.


Does anybody actually have some capture card screenshots of DC? I don't know if I've seen any.
 
You are right, but the lack of aliasing is apparent. Would obviously be better if the shot were uncompressed, though.


Does anybody actually have some capture card screenshots of DC? I don't know if I've seen any.
DC is one of the games that actually makes me want to get a capture card.
 

ShutterMunster

Junior Member
I feel like DC's AA solution has been improved since launch. It definitely saw more shimmer at launch. I could've sworn we deduced that they tweaked something. It's not a massive improvement, but it's there.
 

Noobcraft

Member
I feel like DC's AA solution has been improved since launch. It definitely saw more shimmer at launch. I could've sworn we deduced that they tweaked something. It's not a massive improvement, but it's there.
It shouldn't be hard to prove. IIRC tour events all have the same exact weather and lighting conditions so you could relatively easily compare a shot taken from an earlier version of the game to one now. If there's a notable difference even jpegs should show it.

Here's a shot I took during (I think) the very first race in the game around launch driving the Mercedes.
driveclub_201410101509oy5o.jpg


It shouldn't be hard to compare cockpit elements and aliasing to something like that shot since the lighting should be identical.
 
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