Tegra 2 didn't perform as promised. That was likely enough.
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Nintendo NX rumored to use Nvidia's Pascal GPU architecture
- Thread starter nhlducks35
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Tegra 2 didn't perform as promised. That was likely enough.
It was running too hot and not performing as advertised the stories said.
Yeah I would think they would need to die shrink considerably to be feasible. It was more interesting timing than anything. Nvidia would have to mess up bad to lose another contract.
The timing is definitely interesting. I think if the size were smaller, it would be more curious. I know some are trying to link the new chip to Nintendo already just based on the announcement of the chip.
They may as well be committing a Nintendo PlayStation again just to turn back on Sony right after Kaz Hirai announces the partnership to the press.
Which DMP chip are you guys talking about? The M3000? They advertise it as having a low power consumption & being a chip for mobile machines. Maybe it'd be an option if the Nvidia deal falls through somehow, but I really don't think that'd happen again. I'm gonna stick with Nvidia on NX.
The details on that DMP M3000 chip are very vague in the dmprof website press release.
It's the first time I heard now a possible die size for it with NateDrake mentioning 28nm.
Also, the 1st half 2017 for SoC release/production makes it difficult to pinpoint it's probability of being with NX when NX is expected to release no later March 2017
The process node is a factor in determining the density of a chip, not the size. Even then the naming is misleading in many cases (e.g. "16nmFF" is really just 20nm with FinFET added, more or less). Also, that DMP chip is 28nm?
Here's my proposition, though: what if Tegra was never under consideration for NX in the first place and the X1 is only in dev kits because it's the closest chip to the M3000 in performance?
The M3000 (assuming this is the one you've been talking about here) is 28nm, yes.
That's interesting. It would be very "Nintendo" to use an old process like that lol, especially since the 20nm process of the X1 just wasn't very good and 16nmFF+ is very new.
Well as it's been pointed out, the M3000 will only ship in the first half of 2017, which is too late for NX. (If they delay NX again there's a chance they're using this chip. This isn't gonna happen though...)
Source: http://www.dmprof.com/news/2016/6115/
Source: http://www.dmprof.com/news/2016/6115/
If Nintendo did switch at the last minute to DMP it would be for Nintendo to ignore everything they learned after merging their hardware divisions and decided to go with DMP because they provided a cheaper option compared to Nvidia.
As Dystify said, we'd have to hear a delay to the NX launch to think Nintendo have gone with DMP
Is there a specific reason why we're still talking about DMP?
We don't even know the potential Tegra X2 range of performance.
Ok, but honestly, i don't see the point in writing pages about something like this. Tegra 2 was dumped because Nvidia failed to deliver and the chip was sub-par compared to what they promised, but after seeing how TX1 performs there's no reason to assume this will happen again, especially with a new product on a node that doesn't suck ass (20nm) and with a better architecture than Maxwell.
Yeah, pretty much. Until a substantial leak happens (possibly about the new devkits teased by lcgeek) or the reveal, there's not much to discuss. But rather than discussing the possibility of Nintendo dumping Nvidia for DMP because it happened in the past maybe it's better to just wait haha
Pessimism, nothing has been confirmed.
We may as well speculate that Nintendo will go with Qualcomm or PowerVR etc and dig through financial reports and press releases for hours on end.
I don't think there's anything left to discuss with it at this point. I'm not sure why DMP got brought up in the first place. They're not Nintendo's choice for NX. (This is my opinion, feel free to voice yours or keep talking about DMP if you think there's any substance in those discussions.)
I agree. It's been how many weeks now since Eurogamer started those NX rumours and no insiders have stepped forward to say,"That's not correct, NX is powered by AMD x86 Polaris tech!"
Yep, none whatsoever yet.
Instead we get IGN, Kotaku and WSJ backing up Eurogamer's report.
Self proclaimed insiders have stepped forward...
Very likely to happen one way or amother.
I like good chibi art styles but it gets tiring when every game is chibi especially when publishers chibify existing franchises for Nintendo systems.
Otakumegane
Member
Wasn't chibI a design choice due to 3ds having weird 800 240 resolution giving devs lots of horizontal resolution but not vertical ones?
Just to clarify, I'm only commenting on the DMP situation right now. Considering their new chip is likely only releasing after NX is already out I simply don't think they're in a position to be Nintendo's partner on the hybrid/handheld NX.
Whether AMD is Nintendo's partner for NX or not is not something I have commented on.
Or a HD port of Sun/Moon for NX.
I can't remember whom, I'm just baiting any around now.
I can only remember that one guy that failed the verification process just a couple of days ago.
It's 800 because it renders twice. It's 400x240 and publishers blamed the resolution but they did normal proportions characters fine on PSP. Also Capcom didn't have to chibify anything and their games destroy the competition visually.
I'm just saying nothing of substance has stepped forward. No reputable outlet has dismissed the report.
Silent_Ocarina
Member
You'd think if these mythical AMD devices existed, at least some reputable outlet would have heard about it. I think we should just focus on the device that has been reported. If we fall into the habit of saying "Well, maybe it'll come later, don't write off AMD, a console will come, etc.," we'll be saying that over and over again even if Nintendo only revealed the device described by Eurogamer.
Which makes things all the more difficult to confirm.
It's going to be nuts when Nintendo finally reveals who they've partnered with.
This is the wise thing to do. I'm not sure why this case is special, and people are so readily to dismiss the reports of IGN, WSJ, Tweaktown, EG, etc...
Oh, I misread what you were saying before as though there was still doubt with the Eurogamer report.
Edit: I also misread Tweaktown as Twerktown.
Well, there are those who doubt the report - as you have seen readily on Twitter with HNF. No website worth a damn has reported conflicting reports, however. Which is odd since never before have we seen a situation where a base is so adamant that multiple sites are wrong while presenting no evidence or proof beyond speculation to support their claims.
Well, I can't blame anyone for dismissing IGN or Tweaktown.
It's the amount of corroboration, though (which is also why I'm still not very confident in your Pascal claim, no offense).Well, I can't blame anyone for dismissing IGN or Tweaktown.
Fair enough.
I understand if people don't want to believe the Nvidia rumors. While many sites with a reputation reported on them they're still rumors after all. You're not forced to believe rumors and oftentimes it's a good choice to be critical of them.
What doesn't make much sense to me on the other hand is people claiming it's AMD over and over again, using any possible source (no matter how bad the source is) as evidence and then boldly proclaiming "AMD is working with Nintendo on NX!!!" or something along those lines.
The more often they say this is the case the more people will believe them (because most people don't bother to do actual research and just listen to whatever the loudest voice says). I guess arguments about whether AMD or Nvidia are working with Nintendo will not disappear until it's officially known.
In short: Being critical of rumors is good, claiming speculation to be facts is bad (especially if you're just doing it for attention and youtube views).
What doesn't make much sense to me on the other hand is people claiming it's AMD over and over again, using any possible source (no matter how bad the source is) as evidence and then boldly proclaiming "AMD is working with Nintendo on NX!!!" or something along those lines.
The more often they say this is the case the more people will believe them (because most people don't bother to do actual research and just listen to whatever the loudest voice says). I guess arguments about whether AMD or Nvidia are working with Nintendo will not disappear until it's officially known.
In short: Being critical of rumors is good, claiming speculation to be facts is bad (especially if you're just doing it for attention and youtube views).
So...NX might not be using Tegra is what you're saying?Well, I can't blame anyone for dismissing IGN or Tweaktown.
Maybe all these rumors are just false, and the patent stuff is just that: patents. I'd rather Nintendo suddenly come out of the woodworks with a surprise Nintendo Direct announcement than need to really analyze deeply into Eurogamer/Digital Foundry's claims.
I guess if there's one thing to take away from all this, is that it has set expectations for Nintendo's next console very low, almost to the point that you can hear the naysayers claim "go 3rd party" or bust. Considering how much they surprised people at E3 with one title (BotW), surprised people with PokemonGO (despite naysayers claiming Ninty had no involvement, see Iwata in deathbed thread), I kinda feel NX will also be a surprise in that regard, regardless of what 3rd party publishers, or NeoGAF, might think. It's not even about the Tegra or what chip they use anymore: It's how they implement it and what they plan to do moving forward.
A lot of people (myself included) don't necessarily disagree with the Tegra rumors, but just think there is more to the NX than the information we've heard. I personally think the info from both you and Eurogamer is legit, but I also suspect there's an SCD or other console involved that we haven't yet "officially" heard about.
EDIT: I'm also a little suspicious of the multiplayer aspect of the detachable controllers. One detachable controller (or two motion controllers) makes sense, but I just can't see how it could be configured for multiplayer, like Eurogamer suggested. Also, IGN said the rumor they heard was that the side pieces are used to make a single controller, which makes a bit more sense.
Despite what sites or people say, a AMD powered handheld seems less realistic then a Nvidia one. Unless AMD have solved heat and power efficiency, the only advantage they have to offer over Nvidia is cost. Something Nvidia can compete with easily since they make their big bucks elsewhere.
In my opinion, I'm not going to expect any secret sauce in the dock and, I'm not expecting much from the SCD either. I think the SCD should be treated as it's name says, a supplement.
I imagine the SCD has to be something affordable and not be treated as a console upgrade. I would think just releasing the next iteration of the NX is the upgrade.
Then we have to look at what the SCD can do, I imagine at the minimum it gives a boost in CPU performance, things get expensive adding a GPU in there. Then as I've heard, it would need the Thunderbolt peripheral to transfer so much data at high speeds or the NVlink but I can't say much more if this is likely to happen.
That's not really what I'm saying; I just have an open mind. I'm pretty confident in "Tegra" (though I feel that calling it "Tegra" isn't totally accurate if it's a custom chip), but I'm less confident in a Pascal GPU and 16nmFF.
Certain people in the know here have said the CPU is better than PS4/Xbone by a reasonable amount, so I envision the potential SCD being pretty much just a graphics chip and power supply to output in higher resolution to a TV. Off the shelf price for an RX 480 is $199. RX 470 is $179. I imagine Nintendo could get pretty deep discounts on that. So, ideally the main unit itself would be $200-$250, and the SCD could be $150-$200, which would give you a portable console, tablet, and powerful home console for around the PS4/Xbone launch price. This could be wishful thinking on my part, but it seems like it could at least be feasible.
That is a disaster to market. We're talking about a peripheral that would be the next Wii U at that price. Most people would prefer to just buy the next iteration of the NX.
Also, it's been claimed that the CPU in the NX is more powerful than Xbox One but, it is still weak compared to desktop CPUs.
You also didn't mention what method of transfer it would use to transfer upto hundreds of GBs per second since you are using an external GPU.
Some form of PCIe could do it, and the Pascal Tegra is designed to be able to use a dedicated GPU.
Seems this is what DMP will be offering.
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I'd prefer Nvidia Tegra (semi custom X1 or X2) over DMP just because every developer is familiar with their architecture, tools, software ecosystem, etc.
I doubt DMP's M3000 would really be able to match Tegra X2 in practice which is what counts, not paper specs.
I think it would be pretty simple to market. Like I said, you could have a portable console, tablet, and powerful home console all in one... Or, just a portable console and tablet. The base portable would be marketed towards casual gamers and 3DS owners, and the SCD would be a relatively inexpensive add-on to appeal to core gamers looking for something more competitive with PS4 Neo. The full console + SCD package could be sold bundled at a combined discount, or the SCD could be sold individually to people who might want to wait to upgrade.
As for it being weaker than desktop CPUs, that's certainly true, but it still compares favorably to the Jaguar CPUs in the PS4/Neo, which is what devs will be targeting.
For connecting, they could go with Thunderbolt 3 over USB-C, which is the direction most external GPU setups are going, or they could come up with some type of proprietary PCIe connector on their own.
Added complexity that targets hardcore users would be workable from a marketing standpoint(compared to Wii U where it was largely targeting casuals)
Thinking about it some more. As long as there is going to be no NX home console (Unless it's just a PS Vita TV version of the hybrid) it should be okay. I just don't agree with selling it at the price you suggest. Unless it matches Neo/Scorpio in specs then the pricing could be okay. The other thing I was wondering was that wouldn't the NX need more RAM then since we're talking about a hybrid that is most likely to use LPDDR4 RAM?
Is it possible for them to license Tegras only to be used in devkits? Because even if early devkits had Tegras in them, they still had to pay royalties regardless.Seems this is what DMP will be offering.
link
I'd prefer Nvidia Tegra (semi custom X1 or X2) over DMP just because every developer is familiar with their architecture, tools, software ecosystem, etc.
I doubt DMP's M3000 would really be able to match Tegra X2 in practice which is what counts, not paper specs.
DMP might have been a possibility, but I'm not so sure how this will allign with NX's launch timeline.
lwilliams3
Member
Man.. SMD suggested the same thing in an article that was listed in one of the NX threads. I really don't see why Nintendo would do something like that, though, and it would confuse the developers even more than they have.
RX480 with 4GB GDDR5 are $199. I don't know how much other stuff that you need in the dock would cost but seems they could come up with something competitive next year if they wanted to.
The RX 480 is assumed to be what's going inside the Neo, so if Nintendo could pull off a combined package of $400 (the expected price of the Neo), this would pretty much be a way to compete directly in regards to power, while providing additional functionality for the cost. Then again, they could also go for something lower (RX 470) for less, and still have a decently powerful home console that would be relevant to developers.
I'm not sure what the best solution for RAM would be in this scenario, and I can't seem to find accurate costs for LPDDR4. However, DDR4 seems to be getting less and less expensive, so I suspect the RAM wouldn't be a huge extra cost, but I could be mistaken.
Also, in regard to marketing the console, I just had an idea of how they might market the SCD...
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