Support NeoGAF

[Ignatz Mouse]

Did you really find Tedmann's comment objectionable?

 

[dabig2]

So I took a few minutes to read that entire article. Basically Apple is the new Microsoft and Google is the new Apple. What a surprise. Who didn't see that coming 2 years ago...

I love both companies and their products, but apple has increasingly scared me. It's like they rule over their users with a closed, iron fist while also constraining them behind an iron curtain. Google is like that somewhat more benevolent ruler who allows his constituents free personal choice to decide what they want to do and where they want to go.

At this moment, I'm wholly digging Google's philosophy. And their android phones. Looked at a few just last week in fact.

 

[Cipherr]

My next phone is definitely going to be android. No questions asked, I really like the way they have been going so far.

on the contrary, Apple's OS caters to the masses. in fact, that's really the whole point. it's probably one of the easiest proprietary systems to use in the computing world.

and because many consumers are just getting into the world of dealing with all of these media formats and such, for many...their first experiences will become their "standards". so Apple doesn't really lose ground there.

Man, how many people in 1999 or 2000 or whatever were using Yahoo.com as their internet anchor, chat email searching etc. How many of those areas does Yahoo dominate now? These phones are in large part connected to the Internet. Please look at things in a wider view, what may seem like to much work for the average person now will be streamlined and become common place as these phone increase in penetration.

You are not safe just because your the consumers 'first'. People will learn more about these devices they use every single day dude. You cant rely on them being oblivious, it doesnt work like that. This open system that they are pushing with these Android phones has some amazing potential that I see a lot of parallels to. Might work, might not, but Im not going to bet against it at this point.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

It's like they rule over their users with a closed, iron fist while also constraining them behind an iron curtain. Google is like that somewhat more benevolent ruler who allows his constituents free personal choice to decide what they want to do and where they want to go.

This makes no sense.

Did you really find Tedmann's comment objectionable?

It's not an objectionable statement, but it's overblown and another in a long line of hilarious things Teddman has written about Apple.

Snow Leopard's been out half a year, so the never-ending iPad talk makes it seem like it's the only thing Apple's been working on. OSX will get its time in the spotlight in a few months when we start finding out more about 10.7, just like Snow Leopard was the big deal after the iPhone 3GS came out.

 

[LCfiner]

Wait until they start putting the iPhone OS on Macbooks. OS XI, believe!

hush, you. don’t give them ideas! :lol

I like my desktop computers to be much more open to customization than my phones and ‘tween devices.

 

[Marty Chinn]

hush, you. don’t give them ideas! :lol

I like my desktop computers to be much more open to customization than my phones and ‘tween devices.

Sure, but the more computer like these devices become, the more I start wanting to have the freedom of a computer. Plus it's 2010 now and I still can't change my alert, text message or push notification sound to a custom sound effect. It's restrictions like that which makes me want these devices to have a bit more freedom.

 

[LCfiner]

Sure, but the more computer like these devices become, the more I start wanting to have the freedom of a computer. Plus it's 2010 now and I still can't change my alert, text message or push notification sound to a custom sound effect. It's restrictions like that which makes me want these devices to have a bit more freedom.

alert messages on the iPhone OS are woefully out of date. If Apple doesn’t come up with a better, non-modal solution for 4.0, I’ll be right up there with ya calling BS on Apple for letting the current system slide.


that said, the market is so young that it remains to be seen just how many people prefer the closed vs. open ideologies for user interface on these devices.

I happen to think Apple’s idea is going to be more popular for the mass market since it focuses on UI polish instead of power level features but if they start losing a lot of ground in marketshare to Android then they’ll probably shift to a different mentality as required.

Luckily for power users, Android keeps getting better and better.

 

[Macho Madness]

Luckily for power suers, Android keeps getting better and better.

Pretty sure Steve Jobs prefers the iPhone.

 

[Karma]

This is exactly why some of you guys are so mystified by the mainstream. You're confusing the power user experience with the normal user experience.

A buddy of mine bought a Droid last weekend, and the girl at the Verizon store took the phone and said "I need to install an app for you. You're going to need it". Of course, it was Advanced Task Killer. I've heard similar stories here on GAF. That is not an example of being "ahead in the user experience."

You by no means need Advanced Task Killer. There is no difference when running it.

And ironically none of the 20 patents in the lawsuit is multitouch, which may verify what Leo Laporte had mentioned a couple months ago saying that he was told by someone at Apple (I believe) that the multitouch patent overall is weak.

I would hope so. Apple didnt invent Multi-touch or the gestures that go with it.

 

[Marty Chinn]

alert messages on the iPhone OS are woefully out of date. If Apple doesn’t come up with a better, non-modal solution for 4.0, I’ll be right up there with ya calling BS on Apple for letting the current system slide.


that said, the market is so young that it remains to be seen just how many people prefer the closed vs. open ideologies for user interface on these devices.

I happen to think Apple’s idea is going to be more popular for the mass market since it focuses on UI polish instead of power level features but if they start losing a lot of ground in marketshare to Android then they’ll probably shift to a different mentality as required.

Luckily for power suers, Android keeps getting better and better.

I'm glad Android is around and getting popularity for just the sake of keeping Apple in check. I love my iPhone but I sure do get jealous every now and then when I see certain features on other phones and I just hate how Apple can be inflexible sometimes about their philosophy.

I see no reason why it has o be one or the other. You can have your UI polish but still give flexibility to the user. I mean isn't that sorta what jailbreaking is? It still has all the UI polish from Apple and the experience, but jailbreaking lets you do so much more on top of that if the user wants to. If they don't, they still have Apple's iPhone. So I don't see it being an all or nothing situation. Maybe it's my fault for refusing to jailbreak, but I certainly can hope and want for more flexibility out of the iPhone. My contract is up in July, so it'll be interesting what Apple does to entice me to stay or push me to leave.

I went with the iPhone for two core reasons; Safari, and Visual Voice Mail. I believe Android has something that's like Visual Voice Mail, so the only real thing holdng me back from jumping is probably Safari still being superior. If Apple can just give me a little more flexibility with customizng sounds and a few other things, I'll gladly renew for another two years on an iPhone. But if they start removing Google functionality, I may have to jump ship too.

 

[Macho Madness]

I went with the iPhone for two core reasons; Safari, and Visual Voice Mail. I believe Android has something that's like Visual Voice Mail, so the only real thing holdng me back from jumping is probably Safari still being superior. If Apple can just give me a little more flexibility with customizng sounds and a few other things, I'll gladly renew for another two years on an iPhone. But if they start removing Google functionality, I may have to jump ship too.

What is it about Safari that makes it so magical? Also, Android has Google Voice which is free and amazing.

 

[Mecha_Infantry]

Leo, is that you?

Spoiler

Leo Laporte is known to use Mac's and has a Nexus One.

shhhhh....! No one is meant to know :lol

 

[Marty Chinn]

What is it about Safari that makes it so magical? Also, Android has Google Voice which is free and amazing.

Every web browser I've seen or have heard about has always somehow fallen short of how good Safari is from an overall web experience. From what I hear even the Droid web browser in Android still doesn't quite stack up. I haven't done extensive comparisons or anything, but from all accounts it still sounds like Safari is still the best mobile phone browser out there. Since that was a key factor of getting an iPhone in the first place, I need something that's as good or better to move away from it.

 

[Discotheque]

I'm with Google on this for sure.

 

[Macho Madness]

Every web browser I've seen or have heard about has always somehow fallen short of how good Safari is from an overall web experience. From what I hear even the Droid web browser in Android still doesn't quite stack up. I haven't done extensive comparisons or anything, but from all accounts it still sounds like Safari is still the best mobile phone browser out there. Since that was a key factor of getting an iPhone in the first place, I need something that's as good or better to move away from it.

I guess it all depends on what you're trying to do but I have never had a problem with the Droid's built in browser. Some people in DroidGAF swear up and down about Dolphin Browser but I found it to be very ugly and sluggish. I suppose the nice thing about Android is that there is actual browser choice whereas on the iPhone if the browser sucked you'd have no choice because of Apple's policies.

 

[avaya]

Go Google!

The fact that Google is positioning Android as an open platform makes picking a side in this dispute easy.

.

 

[rezuth]

You by no means need Advanced Task Killer. There is no difference when running it.



I would hope so. Apple didnt invent Multi-touch or the gestures that go with it.

No but they bought the company that pretty much did.

 

[Future]

Apples control over everything is fine and dandy when they are shipping their own experience, with apple apps. But once third parties get into the mix, you naturally get resistance since devs aren't able to always do what they'd like

apple is trying iTunesify computer software, as they have done with music. Get some quality hardware out there, and make it so you can only use their software to update it. Worked fine with music since there is no real filter on what mp3s can be put on iPods...regardless of where they were bought. But with software, they are actually becoming a filter for what apps belong and what apps don't, and I think this is the crack in their armor that competitors will exploit. I'm surprised their aren't any suits about this. Imagine if Microsoft suddenly prevented devs from putting out software for windows that they deemed unfit.

And what better competitor than a company that believes in open source, and also is part of the reason for the iPhones initial success ( YouTube and map apps). Google wins in the end

 

[Tobor]

You by no means need Advanced Task Killer. There is no difference when running it.

Well, the perception is that it is needed. Verizon employees aren't pre-installing it on Droids for no reason.

 

[Patriots7]

I'm a pretty big fan of both companies, so it would be hard for me to pick a side. Both have advantages and disadvantages to their philosophies, but I personally have no problem being controlled by Apple.
At this point, I'm invested so much into the Apple ecosystem that it's just too difficult to make the switch (at least from iPhone to Android). iTunes is simply too invaluable to me at the moment (and I wonder why Google has yet to make a rival to iTunes, for me and many that I know, iTunes is the reason we won't make the switch). That and Android just confuses me.

I hope Android does well though, as competition might actually make Apple add some of the stuff that we've been requesting for in the next update of the iPhone OS.

 

[tfur]

Another interesting article about this situation:


Apple's HTC patent lawsuit is a bluff

http://www.betanews.com/joewilcox/article/Apples-HTC-patent-lawsuit-is-a-bluff/1268597261

 

[XMonkey]

Well, the perception is that it is needed. Verizon employees aren't pre-installing it on Droids for no reason.

Is it really that widespread? I can't imagine any kind of majority of employees doing that.

I'm not even considering the fact that you seem to be implying that Verizon sales employees know best about their phones, I've dealt with enough to know that isn't the case.

 

[Tobor]

Is it really that widespread? I can't imagine any kind of majority of employees doing that.

I'm not even considering the fact that you seem to be implying that Verizon sales employees know best about their phones, I've dealt with enough to know that isn't the case.

I've heard it mentioned before. I'm sure it's over zealous employees, not company policy. Doesn't really change my point.

 

[Macho Madness]

Is it really that widespread? I can't imagine any kind of majority of employees doing that.

I'm not even considering the fact that you seem to be implying that Verizon sales employees know best about their phones, I've dealt with enough to know that isn't the case.

Yeah, I don't think there's a lot of Verizon people doing that. When I went in and bought my Droid the guy said the phone had everything I needed and that was that. Advanced Task Killer is in no way needed for the phone to work great.

 

[Pimpwerx]

I'm a pretty big fan of both companies, so it would be hard for me to pick a side. Both have advantages and disadvantages to their philosophies, but I personally have no problem being controlled by Apple.
At this point, I'm invested so much into the Apple ecosystem that it's just too difficult to make the switch (at least from iPhone to Android). iTunes is simply too invaluable to me at the moment (and I wonder why Google has yet to make a rival to iTunes, for me and many that I know, iTunes is the reason we won't make the switch). That and Android just confuses me.

I hope Android does well though, as competition might actually make Apple add some of the stuff that we've been requesting for in the next update of the iPhone OS.

They will eventually. I'm assuming a combination of Shopper's aggregator + Checkout for payments + Desktop to sync with local storage. PEACE.

 

[XMonkey]

I've heard it mentioned before. I'm sure it's over zealous employees, not company policy. Doesn't really change my point.

That there's a perception it's needed? Among who?

 

[DjangoReinhardt]

I use several Google products, but if they disappeared tomorrow the only thing I'd really miss is Maps.

If Apple disappeared tomorrow, I'd be pissed off. I'm a big fan of their philosophy: I'm happy to sacrifice control for usability and have zero interest in tinkering.

 

[Marty Chinn]

I don't get why people feel that you have to lose control in order to gain usability... there's no reason you can't have both.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

I don't get why people feel that you have to lose control in order to gain usability... there's no reason you can't have both.

I feel like people only use the word "control" regarding usability in context to the non-Apple users discussing control. It's more abstract than a literal trade-off.

 

[Marty Chinn]

I feel like people only use the word "control" regarding usability in context to the non-Apple users discussing control. It's more abstract than a literal trade-off.

Ok, explain to me the "usability" gain from not letting me change the sound effects for my alerts, text messages, and push notifications?

 

[Teddman]

I don't get why people feel that you have to lose control in order to gain usability... there's no reason you can't have both.

I agree. Why can't I have the ability to browse a direct file system, play non Apple container movie formats, use my own sound efx, or browse Flash sites if I choose to? Fine, disable these options by default if you really think they're detrimental or dangerous to most consumers, but don't cripple the device for more tech savvy users.

OS X accomplishes this so well. You have basically the most awesome front-end for unix ever made, but the Terminal is just a click away if you want to go deeper. And that doesn't affect "casual" users at all.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Ok, explain to me the "usability" gain from not letting me change the sound effects for my alerts, text messages, and push notifications?

Why should I have to? It's a clear oversight on Apple's part. That's not a control thing.

 

[jdogmoney]

So what I'm getting from this is that Google is Wayne Enterprises and Apple is Lexcorp?

 

[LCfiner]

Ok, explain to me the "usability" gain from not letting me change the sound effects for my alerts, text messages, and push notifications?

Just want to note that 3rd party apps can modify the push notification sound.

Apple leaves that customization up to devs. I have different sounds for gmail, Twitter and rss feed updates via ultimate notifier.

 

[Kano on the Phone]

I agree. Why can't I have the ability to browse a direct file system, play non Apple container movie formats, use my own sound efx, or browse Flash sites if I choose to? Fine, disable these options by default if you really think they're detrimental or dangerous to most consumers, but don't cripple the device for more tech savvy users.

OS X accomplishes this so well. You have basically the most awesome front-end for unix ever made, but the Terminal is just a click away if you want to go deeper. And that doesn't affect "casual" users at all.

You can: don't buy an iPhone or an iPad.

 

[Karma]

No but they bought the company that pretty much did.

Sorry I didnt know they bought the University of Toronto, Bell Labs and Jeff Han.

 

[kame-sennin]

on the contrary, Apple's OS caters to the masses. in fact, that's really the whole point. it's probably one of the easiest proprietary systems to use in the computing world.

and because many consumers are just getting into the world of dealing with all of these media formats and such, for many...their first experiences will become their "standards". so Apple doesn't really lose ground there.

I like the form and fashion of the Droid and Nexus One...but it's really Apple's AppStore that represents the difference between the products. well...and the name brand that has slowly built itself up over a decade of blood, sweat and tears. nobody has a brandable rival "store"...and I think most people are happy not having to go to 20 websites to find applications.

the ease and convenience are hard forces to overcome. I'm not sure how MS, Google, Samsung, Palm, or RIM beat that.

Well said. Gaf is often very disconnected with the tech needs of the mainstream. The iPhone, and soon the iPad, hold the user's hand and make it easy to do whatever it is they want to do. Open source, as much as we may love it, is not a positive this early in the game. Most people find smartphones confusing, so being fluent enough with a phone to customize it is kind of out of the question.

But to answer your last question, all Apple's competitor's have to do is wait. Closed platforms are great in the beginning when users are new to the technology and the performance isn't quite there to meet the customer's needs. But as the technology improves, demand shifts towards improving the performance of specific components and away from a cohesive experience. As others have noted, Microsoft and Intel did the exact same thing to Apple in the 80's. When computers were struggling to complete simple tasks, the Macintosh provided the best experience because the integrated hardware and software had better functionality. But as the technology improved, demand shifted toward faster chips and business-friendly software. The integrated experience wasn't needed any more and Microsoft and Intel inherited PC dominance.

For now, Google and all the rest have to focus on improving their products and settle for smaller market share. For now, the iPhone OS experience is going to be the one consumers leap towards. But as mobile performance improves, people will gravitate to open source devices and it seems likely that Google will dominate when that time comes.

 

[rezuth]

Sorry I didnt know they bought the University of Toronto, Bell Labs and Jeff Han.

They bought fingerworks who not only made some of the first commercial multitouch products but also pioneered many of the gestures we know today.

 

[NullPointer]

I'm betting on Google.

Same here.

The internet thrived because of open-ness. Once again companies are trying to close it off behind proprietary walls. "Apps" are no different in theory in my mind than websites that only work in one browser.

We don't need that shit.

 

[Zombie James]

Apple believes that devices like smartphones and tablets should have tightly controlled, proprietary standards and that customers should take advantage of services on those gadgets with applications downloaded from Apple’s own App Store.

And this is exactly part of the reason why I decided to leave the App Store and transition to web applications. I can't fucking stand working under Apple's policies and restrictions.

 

[teiresias]

I've heard it mentioned before. I'm sure it's over zealous employees, not company policy. Doesn't really change my point.

So, using that rationale, I can say that the fact that people jailbreak their iPhones is justification for how Apple needs to dump the App Store and go completely open in app distribution.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Same here.

The internet thrived because of open-ness. Once again companies are trying to close it off behind proprietary walls. "Apps" are no different in theory in my mind than websites that only work in one browser.

We don't need that shit.

This makes no sense.

Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebKit

 

[Karma]

They bought fingerworks who not only made some of the first commercial multitouch products but also pioneered many of the gestures we know today.

First commercial products means nothing. We were talking about being able to patent multi-touch. What gestures did they invent?

 

[Tobor]

So, using that rationale, I can say that the fact that people jailbreak their iPhones is justification for how Apple needs to dump the App Store and go completely open in app distribution.

No, using that rationale, you could say that people who jailbreak their iPhones might be better served by an Android phone.

 

[mj1108]

So, using that rationale, I can say that the fact that people jailbreak their iPhones is justification for how Apple needs to dump the App Store and go completely open in app distribution.

Not necessarily dump the App Store but at least open the iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad up so you can install programs from external sites....

Spoiler

although we know that will never officially happen

Well said. Gaf is often very disconnected with the tech needs of the mainstream. The iPhone, and soon the iPad, hold the user's hand and make it easy to do whatever it is they want to do. Open source, as much as we may love it, is not a positive this early in the game. Most people find smartphones confusing, so being fluent enough with a phone to customize it is kind of out of the question.

Is it completely wrong to refer to the iPhone as a "Fisher Price Smartphone"? One big button....run one thing at a time (3rd party apps)....pretty much dummyproof.

Yeah I don't own an iPhone or an iPod Touch but did preorder an iPad....so I can take Apple's closed off infrastructure for a spin....and here's to hoping someone jailbreaks the iPad soon after release.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Let's be real, would this unfortunately never-ending drama bomb stop if Apple opened up the App Store? We'd just find something new about them to hate on. It's exactly as the article suggests: Apple right now is in the same position Microsoft was in during the 80s and 90s.

 

[FunkyMunkey]

Let's be real, would this unfortunately never-ending drama bomb stop if Apple opened up the App Store? We'd just find something new about them to hate on.

What never-ending drama? Wtf are you talking about? Do you mean criticizing companies who practice something that displeases some customers?

Your weird loyalty with them is more unfortunate imo. It's your choice to stand in some company giant's corner and take potshots for them.

Spoiler

And you putting "we" when talking about hating on them is a good lol

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

What never-ending drama? Wtf are you talking about?

I read the Internet.

Results 1 - 10 of about 1,720,000 for app store sucks. (0.35 seconds)

Your weird loyalty with them is more unfortunate imo. It's your choice to stand in some company giant's corner and take potshots for them.

Spoiler

And you putting "we" when talking about hating on them is a good lol

What?

 

[mj1108]

What never-ending drama? Wtf are you talking about? Do you mean criticizing companies who practice something that displeases some customers?

Unfortunately I think those "some" customers are in the vast minority. Mom and pop who isn't a techy could care less. They just know it can make calls, they have the app store so they can check the weather, play some games, etc... It probably hasn't dawned on them about the idea of being able to install things from other sources or being able to customize it more. They're perfectly content with it being "as is".

 

[Stat Flow]

Your weird loyalty with them is more unfortunate imo.

I agree :lol :lol :lol

I mean, I don't understand why anyone supports the philosophy of shutting shit down for the consumer vs things being open.

Also, the jailbreaking community is really big, and from what I used of my iPod Touch (the only experience I have with it besides using an iPhone for a couple hours) when I had it last year, it was so much more boring when it wasn't jailbroken.