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[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

I mean, I don't understand why anyone supports the philosophy of shutting shit down for the consumer vs things being open.

Who has said that they support the App Store philosophy?

That's just such a huge problem in these threads. You (and Funky and the other usual suspects) take the comments from the Apple nerds and totally warp them into ultra-defensive comments instead of taking them as the FUD-killing corrections or clarifications that they usually are.

 

[Brera]

Right now, the only thing keeping me from jumping to Android is 3rd party apps.

There is nothing really keeping me with the iPhone. I love it as it was the 1st smartphone that felt perfect but if Android got 3rd party support on par with Apple from the likes of Capcom, EA et al, I would jump.

Unless Apple produce the goods and give me a slide out keyboard and let me customise message tones as I hate having the same one as everyone else in the room.

It's the simple things that Apple fall down on!

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Let's be real, would this unfortunately never-ending drama bomb stop if Apple opened up the App Store? We'd just find something new about them to hate on. It's exactly as the article suggests: Apple right now is in the same position Microsoft was in during the 80s and 90s.

You buy into the persecution complex thing too much. I'd like the App Store opened up but I don't hate on Apple, and that's the model for their laptops already. Not everybody who criticizes Apple is an automatic hater. I use Macs almost exclusively for computing and my mp3 player in an iPod.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Right now, the only thing keeping me from jumping to Android is 3rd party apps.

There is nothing really keeping me with the iPhone. I love it as it was the 1st smartphone that felt perfect but if Android got 3rd party support on par with Apple from the likes of Capcom, EA et al, I would jump.

Unless Apple produce the goods and give me a slide out keyboard and let me customise message tones as I hate having the same one as everyone else in the room.

It's the simple things that Apple fall down on!

As an owner of an Android Phone and an iPod touch, I don't think Android will ever catch up in apps. It's a huge disparity.

I prefer Android for openness and a coupl of key things, but I envy the Apps.

(And yes, I would like the App Store opened up-- imagine more freedom + the marketshare driver, the potential is enormous.)

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Not everybody who criticizes Apple is an automatic hater.

I haven't implied that. There are many thoughtful critiques of the system online elsewhere, and you'll find that all of the usual Apple-GAF dislikes the App Store philosophy as well. It seems like if you find one good thing to like about it to drum up debate and discussion, even if you hate every other part of the system, you get called out for it. It's no fun having to qualify every comment with some anti-fanboy pre-emption, no matter which side you're on.

 

[Stat Flow]

Who has said that they support the App Store philosophy?

That's just such a huge problem in these threads. You (and Funky and the other usual suspects) take the comments from the Apple nerds and totally warp them into ultra-defensive comments instead of taking them as the FUD-killing corrections or clarifications that they usually are.

So you don't support what Apple is doing?

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

So you don't support what Apple is doing?

Nope.

But you're the one that implied some people do, and often come into Apple threads to laugh at those people. Find them for me, then.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

Google can really kill Apple if it's OS takes off but I think Jobs needs to be less vocal about this stuff and keep doing what he knows and take what he can get stop bitching before I am forced to just my Google on Windows 7

I have always been on a Mac but I love me some Google stuff even tried Wave

The Google OS cannot come soon enough these guys (MS/Apple) need a fire lit under them to keep the improvements coming

that said, someone please buy me an iPad

 

[Stat Flow]

Nope.

But you're the one that implied some people do, and often come into Apple threads to laugh at those people. Find them for me, then.

Well that's good: Everyone can agree - Fuck you Apple

I laughed at the dude that said that Android was "trying to be a me-too of the iPhone when Jobs truly is the one who cares about end user experience."

I don't come into Apple threads to laugh at people, I don't even go into Apple threads, this isn't an exclusively Apple thread.

It's all good, they make some bitchin products. If people like them, that's cool, as long as they don't fuck with what's coming out on Android I don't really care what goes down.

 

[Kano on the Phone]

Google can really kill Apple if it's OS takes off but I think Jobs needs to be less vocal about this stuff and keep doing what he knows and take what he can get stop bitching before I am forced to just my Google on Windows 7

I have always been on a Mac but I love me some Google stuff even tried Wave

The Google OS cannot come soon enough these guys (MS/Apple) need a fire lit under them to keep the improvements coming

that said, someone please buy me an iPad

Makes sense.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Lui, I was mostly taking issue with your assertion that no matter what, people are going to hate Apple-- as if that matters at all. *That* is what I meant by being swept up in the Apple persecution complex-- to argue about *not* doing something good just because people will still hate Apple. It doesn't even factor into the discussion.

 

[lunarworks]

You buy into the persecution complex thing too much. I'd like the App Store opened up but I don't hate on Apple, and that's the model for their laptops already. Not everybody who criticizes Apple is an automatic hater. I use Macs almost exclusively for computing and my mp3 player in an iPod.

Their laptops are for a very different market segment than iPhones. What works for a MacBook doesn't necessarily work for an easy-and-safe-as-fuck iPhone.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Lui, I was mostly taking issue with your assertion that no matter what, people are going to hate Apple-- as if that matters at all. *That* is what I meant by being swept up in the Apple persecution complex-- to argue about *not* doing something good just because people will still hate Apple. It doesn't even factor into the discussion.

I totally believe it. The Internet is full of this. Apple can't do anything without some people losing their shit over it. It's exactly the same as when Microsoft couldn't put out a new version of Windows without M$ jokes or people talking shit.

I wasn't suggesting that Apple shouldn't be doing good things because it's fruitless. I was trying to put a light on having some rationality behind the App Store discussions, because they never seem to end.

 

[FunkyMunkey]

What I was meant was pretty much what Ignatz said. Quoting my brain and all that.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Yeah, Lui, but who cares? And it was true long before Apple found a market or two to dominate. People have always had reasons to hate Apple.

My point is, you seem to be hooked on it.

It's attitudes like these that made me, an Apple fan, cringe in the iPad thread where criticism of the iPad (IMHO a dud) were met with knee-jerk defenses rather than a real discussion of the pros and cons of the device.


And lunar-- there's no reason the software couldn't be open and still have a safe and controlled environment if Apple wished it. they don't.

 

[LCfiner]

Ignatz, I had a different recollection of the ipad thread. Most of the knee jerk reactions were incredibly negative, including my own, and the defensive responses were mostly about how those individual posters could find value in the ipad for themselves.

It took a couple days after the announcement before gaf was able to have pockets of rational debate about the device here and there but there were still lots of extremely negative posts about it. Only a few people here have said they're getting one on day one.

all in all, gaf's reaction to the ipad has been about the same level as other tech saavy boards out there. Of course some people are going to defend it -- because some people are going to find it a genuinely interesting device.

 

[Tobor]

Yeah, Lui, but who cares? And it was true long before Apple found a market or two to dominate. People have always had reasons to hate Apple.

My point is, you seem to be hooked on it.

It's attitudes like these that made me, an Apple fan, cringe in the iPad thread where criticism of the iPad (IMHO a dud) were met with knee-jerk defenses rather than a real discussion of the pros and cons of the device.


And lunar-- there's no reason the software couldn't be open and still have a safe and controlled environment if Apple wished it. they don't.

I'm waiting for someone to give me a valid reason why I should care.

Contrary to what Liu Kang said, I don't hate the App Store philosophy, or the iPhone OS philosophy in general. It's giving me what I want, a vast breadth of quality software at insanely cheap prices. I don't really care about customizing my home screen and having custom sounds when I get a text, these just aren't important to me.

That said, I'm not against them making changes. If they open up the App Store and add multitasking, then that's awesome. As long as Apple can maintain the stability of my phone and continue to provide me with a great experience.

What grinds my gears in these threads is this ridiculous notion that it has to be one way or the other. Open the OS all the way down to the nuts and bolts or GTFO. I just don't buy it. A moderated experience has clearly struck a chord with a wide range of people, and it's inappropriate to throw that out. Apple should do exactly what they're doing, take their time and feel out the edges. The iPhone OS is clearly evolving towards a middle ground between a fully open system and what we have today.

And like I said above, there is an excellent alternative in Android for anyone not being served by Apple's ecosystem. I personally like Android, but it's not a viable solution for me at this point due to a lack of games and media integration.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Tobor, why should I care whether or not you care?

 

[black_13]

Damn I'm torn on whose side I'm on. This is like choosing Megan Fox or Kate Beckinsale.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Ignatz, I had a different recollection of the ipad thread. Most of the knee jerk reactions were incredibly negative, including my own, and the defensive responses were mostly about how those individual posters could find value in the ipad for themselves.

It took a couple days after the announcement before gaf was able to have pockets of rational debate about the device here and there but there were still lots of extremely negative posts about it. Only a few people here have said they're getting one on day one.

all in all, gaf's reaction to the ipad has been about the same level as other tech saavy boards out there. Of course some people are going to defend it -- because some people are going to find it a genuinely interesting device.

You are right about the initial reaction-- I was mostly thinking of the days that followed. I had no trouble with the people who had a personal interest, it was the "this is the next big thing" comments from some any debate with them about that turned quickly into "you just don't understand/you hate Apple" lines of thought. In retrospect, a minority experience, but it was typical for my involvement in the thread.

 

[Tobor]

Tobor, why should I care whether or not you care?

No reason. :lol I only quoted you because you're having a mature discussion, instead of the usual "Jobs is an asshole" nonsense.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

No reason. :lol I only quoted you because you're having a mature discussion, instead of the usual "Jobs is an asshole" nonsense.

:lol

I just take that as a given and move on. He's also a genius, and that's not hyperbole-- by my count he's been involved in 4 fundamental consumer electronics shifts/revolutions*. Most people would be content with one.

As far as openness, i see your point, but I rage against it. It may become the dominant paradigm, but I don't want it too-- it's like cable companies or pre-smart-phones, it's not consumer oriented and ultimately leaves me paying more for something less satisfying.

* Home Computers, Desktop GUI, iPod, iPhone. Last one is arguable, i suppose, but then you might also count online retailing of music as separate from the iPod. So 3-5 revolutions.

 

[Mar]

I'm a recent convert to Apple's products. Phone, music player, and all my computers including the one I use at work. But I take Google's side here, and if it came down to which company I'd back if one were to win, I'd go Google.

Apple is doing itself a disservice by its tyrannical control and bitching lately. It's really unbecoming and I think removes the shine from the devices themselves. It's hard to love a product when the people behind it are acting like assholes. It's why I gave up on Windows and went Linux. I wouldn't be utterly heart broken to go back to Linux from Mac OS either.

If Mac OS went for Bing as their default search engine, well, that may be the straw that breaks the camel's back. I won't be very happy with that at all.

 

[LCfiner]

You are right about the initial reaction-- I was mostly thinking of the days that followed. I had no trouble with the people who had a personal interest, it was the "this is the next big thing" comments from some any debate with them about that turned quickly into "you just don't understand/you hate Apple" lines of thought. In retrospect, a minority experience, but it was typical for my involvement in the thread.

It can be a bit of a crapshoot depending on who responds to your posts, obviously.

I tend to see things from the other angle since these threads always get me shaking my head by the end of the first page. There's always a bunch of posts by seemingly angry young men calling for apple's head on a plate and I just don't get it. It'd be like hoping for nintendo or Sony to go bankrupt on the gaming side -- all that does is lower competition and make all future products worse from the remaining companies.

I also find it interesting that so many posts in this thread have been by people who feel a need to take a side in the matter. As if taking a side will make any difference to the outcome. Just use what products you like and leave the politics to the politicians.

 

[cartoon_soldier]

Old News?

More Shots Fired!!

http://techcrunch.com/2010/03/14/google-product-manager-rj-pittman-defects-to-apple/

RJ Pittman, a prominent product manager at Google, has left the company to join Apple.

 

[LCfiner]

Old News?

More Shots Fired!!

http://techcrunch.com/2010/03/14/google-product-manager-rj-pittman-defects-to-apple/

Holt Shit! RJ Pittman! that’s quite a steal!


I have his rookie card.




(I obviously have no idea who this person is)

 

[Tobor]

That card will explode in value, LC! :lol

Sounds like it has something to do with Apple's plans for Lala.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

I also find it interesting that so many posts in this thread have been by people who feel a need to take a side in the matter. As if taking a side will make any difference to the outcome. Just use what products you like and leave the politics to the politicians.

Yeah. I guess it's human nature. In this case I am spared the urge since I <3 my Macs *and* my Android phone. I just hope this turns into a productive arms race and not a series of patent exclusives.

 

[StoOgE]

Microsoft needs to get in on this shit.

TRIPLE THREAT TLC MATCH FUCKERS

 

[cartoon_soldier]

Microsoft needs to get in on this shit.

TRIPLE THREAT TLC MATCH FUCKERS

Microsoft has the MITB win, it will come in after the fight is over for the steal.

 

[UltimaPooh]

Jack of all trades, master of none. There's a reason that phrase exists.
Aside from search, Google spreads itself too thin and tries to be different for the sake of it. And by spreading its attentions so thin, they've allowed Microsoft, the least-subtle tech company in the known world, to sneak up on them with a well-received search experience with Bing.

Google also has one of the best mapping systems on the net. Not to mention gmail being one of the best email clients. They own Youtube the premiere source for online videos.

Google Voice will also be huge when they open it up a bit more.

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

why is the App store considered closed when they have so many apps?

 

[UltimaPooh]

why is the App store considered closed when they have so many apps?

Apps go through an Apple review system, Google doesn't have one.

Apps for the iPhone have stricter guidelines and have been banned from the app store.

The Android Market doesn't have as many guidelines and only a few apps have been banned from the marketplace.

 

[Tobor]

Google also has one of the best mapping systems on the net. Not to mention gmail being one of the best email clients. They own Youtube the premiere source for online videos.

Google Voice will also be huge when they open it up a bit more.

Obviously I agree as far as Gmail, YouTube and google maps is concerned. But Google Voice, I don't see how a normal person would ever need it. It's a solution searching for a problem.

 

[Zombie James]

why is the App store considered closed when they have so many apps?

http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2010/03/iphone-developer-program-license-agreement-all

There's a start.

 

[Terrell]

Google also has one of the best mapping systems on the net. Not to mention gmail being one of the best email clients. They own Youtube the premiere source for online videos.

Google Voice will also be huge when they open it up a bit more.

Google Maps, I'll give you, they've put some hard work into that.
Gmail is... debatable. Trying to use it outside of a Google-determined environment can get pretty ugly, though, because it doesn't subscribe to typical methods of mail sorting. So it's fine only as long as you use it within Google's controlled product universe, which is better than how Hotmail locked people in, but it's not great and far from ideal that it can't play as nice elsewhere.
And they bought YouTube, so all they're doing there is maintaining the status quo that was already pre-developed for them.
And people were saying the same thing about Skype that people are saying about Google Voice now. So I'm gonna have to wait on that one to see if their massive hype blitz will pay off.

 

[Tobor]

why is the App store considered closed when they have so many apps?

Exactly what I was talking about earlier. The end user doesn't care about semantics and philosophy when the end result is so comprehensive.

 

[iamblades]

As an owner of an Android Phone and an iPod touch, I don't think Android will ever catch up in apps. It's a huge disparity.

I prefer Android for openness and a couple of key things, but I envy the Apps.

(And yes, I would like the App Store opened up-- imagine more freedom + the marketshare driver, the potential is enormous.)

I don't really buy the 'huge disparity' between the app store in terms of overall apps.

There may be a huge disparity in the bigger budget games and apps by bigger developers, as android doesn't have quite the marketshare to support that kind of content, but it's just a matter of time at the current growth rates. On the flip side, there are apps you can only get on android because apple won't allow them on the app store.

So eventually android will have all the stuff apple won't allow, plus all the stuff from iphone ported over, because its cheap to do it and it's basically free money.

Besides, 20,000+ vs. 100,000+ (numbers from late last year anyway, they've both probably gone up by 10s of thousands by now) isn't really that huge of a difference in terms of available apps, especially after you filter it down to the stuff people actually do on their phone.

 

[Terrell]

I don't really buy the 'huge disparity' between the app store in terms of overall apps.

There may be a huge disparity in the bigger budget games and apps by bigger developers, as android doesn't have quite the marketshare to support that kind of content, but it's just a matter of time at the current growth rates. On the flip side, there are apps you can only get on android because apple won't allow them on the app store.

So eventually android will have all the stuff apple won't allow, plus all the stuff from iphone ported over, because its cheap to do it and it's basically free money.

Besides, 20,000+ vs. 100,000+ (numbers from late last year anyway, they've both probably gone up by 10s of thousands by now) isn't really that huge of a difference in terms of available apps, especially after you filter it down to the stuff people actually do on their phone.

Actually, both current official totals are 20,000+ vs. 133,000+. So the App Store has over 6 times the apps of Android Market.

Not to mention that actual sales aren't what developers are hoping to see.

http://phandroid.com/2009/08/31/developer-sheds-tears-for-light-on-android-market/

Last week the developers at Tap Tap Tap – makers of a conversion calculator in the App Store – gave a stunning account of what their newly launched Application earned after being ranked the #2 paid application in two weeks time. Selling at .99 cents a pop, the “featured” position helped them sell 9,000 copies per day, earning them $6,300+ after Apple’s cut. Holy smokes!
Other stories of overwhelming iPhone App Store success are matched with equally depressing stories of Android Market failure. Take for example Trism who sold $250k+ in game downloads over the first 2 months of release and since being ported to Android has only sold 500 copies! Man… what the heck is wrong with Android Market?

 

[LCfiner]

right now, I think there’s a perception issue where very few people think of Android devices as being able to play games.

Google might want to start changing that notion. Games are a huge part of the app store’s success. developers need to know that their efforts on Android will be rewarded.

maybe some “the most funniest phone ever! by Google” ads or whatnot.

 

[Macho Madness]

right now, I thicken there’s a perception issue where very few people think of Android devices as being able to play games.

Google might want to start changing that notion. Games are a huge part of the app store’s success. developers need to know that their efforts on Android will be rewarded.

maybe some “the most funniest phone ever! by Google” ads or whatnot.

The main reason I have no games on my phone is because I have no idea what is good and what is crap. Also, a lot of game devs do not have a free demo and charge $5+ for their games. Most of the screenshots look unappealing as well. I think some actual good game devs need to take a crack at Android games before we see them take off.

 

[teiresias]

Obviously I agree as far as Gmail, YouTube and google maps is concerned. But Google Voice, I don't see how a normal person would ever need it. It's a solution searching for a problem.

You're confusing Google Voice with the iPad with that whole searching for a problem bit. Google Voice is useful to everyone if only as a better way to keep a centralized number that you don't have to worry about porting around if you change carriers. Consolidating email is one of the better uses for it and even for someone with one phone using it as a voicemail replacement system is worth it as well.

 

[ThatObviousUser]

I want this article to be the basis for Pirates of Silicon Valley 2.

Edit- Android Market has almost 35,000 apps btw.

 

[Solid Moustache]

Google should just buy Apple and let this shit end.

lolz apple has more money than TEH GOOGLE

Also.. fun fact: apple is about the 1/4 size of micro$oft but all of their products fit on a dinner table.

Yeah as you can see I'm an apple fanboy but don't get me wrong I don't hate or dislike google or anything..

 

[iamblades]

Actually, both current official totals are 20,000+ vs. 133,000+. So the App Store has over 6 times the apps of Android Market.

Not to mention that actual sales aren't what developers are hoping to see.

http://phandroid.com/2009/08/31/developer-sheds-tears-for-light-on-android-market/

http://www.androlib.com/appstats.aspx

Looks like android is up around 35k now.

Both markets seem to be growing at a rapid rate, just Itunes has had a big head start(android actually grew more in percentage terms, while the app store grew more in total).

As for app sales, can't really effectively respond to anecdotes about this, as hard sales data for the markets as a whole is pretty hard to find.

I will give the app store credit for how they do promotion of featured items, and how they show off the apps in the market. google is relying on 3rd party sites to do all that, which works for the power user, it doesn't for the average consumer.

I will also say that android is just now starting to reach the mass market, at the time of that article, the average person with an android phone was more likely to code their own app than to buy something off the market. It's not really a relevant comparison going forward.

ETA: even in the comments section on that article, they make a good point about certain markets not being able to buy paid apps at that time. You really can't draw any useful information from how the android market was in the beginning when talking about how it is now and how it will be in the future.

 

[LCfiner]

http://www.androlib.com/appstats.aspx

Looks like android is up around 35k now.

Both markets seem to be growing at a rapid rate, just Itunes has had a big head start(android actually grew more in percentage terms, while the app store grew more in total).

As for app sales, can't really effectively respond to anecdotes about this, as hard sales data for the markets as a whole is pretty hard to find.

I will give the app store credit for how they do promotion of featured items, and how they show off the apps in the market. google is relying on 3rd party sites to do all that, which works for the power user, it doesn't for the average consumer.

I will also say that android is just now starting to reach the mass market, at the time of that article, the average person with an android phone was more likely to code their own app than to buy something off the market. It's not really a relevant comparison going forward.

not really.

this has been posted before but Apple is pretty much the only player when it comes to mobile app revenue.

http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2010/01/apple-responsible-for-994-of-mobile-app-sales-in-2009.ars

over 99% of all mobile revenue comes from the App Store. that’s… ridiculous.

If Google wants developers to take Android seriously, they need to start promoting the marketplace more and more to potential customers and start improving it so that it’s easier to find what people are looking for.

 

[Mecha_Infantry]

Right now, the only thing keeping me from jumping to Android is 3rd party apps.

There is nothing really keeping me with the iPhone. I love it as it was the 1st smartphone that felt perfect but if Android got 3rd party support on par with Apple from the likes of Capcom, EA et al, I would jump.

Unless Apple produce the goods and give me a slide out keyboard and let me customise message tones as I hate having the same one as everyone else in the room.

It's the simple things that Apple fall down on!

You can't change the message tone on android either. (Android 2.1 on nexus.)

 

[Deku]

not really.

this has been posted before but Apple is pretty much the only player when it comes to mobile app revenue.

http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2010/01/apple-responsible-for-994-of-mobile-app-sales-in-2009.ars

over 99% of all mobile revenue comes from the App Store. that’s… ridiculous.

If Google wants developers to take Android seriously, they need to start promoting the marketplace more and more to potential customers and start improving it so that it’s easier to find what people are looking for.

I think you missed the updated addendum at the end of the article.

UPDATE: A number of people have expressed concern that Gartner's figure only count apps sold, and not free apps. Gartner's press release indicated otherwise, and we verified with Baghdassarian that the figures include all apps, free or otherwise, distributed from every app store. According to Apple, it moved 2.5 billion apps, free or otherwise. We contend that the 99.4 percent figure is accurate.

So the 99% is not revenue, its just projected marketshare of total apps downloaded and we don't really know what % is paid. Probably a lot less, and most are probably 1 or 2 bucks only.

The article's use of the world 'sold' or 'sales' to describe 'downloads' is thus really quite misleading.

 

[Macho Madness]

You can't change the message tone on android either. (Android 2.1 on nexus.)

It's called the Notification tone. I see no reason why you can't change it when you can on a stock Droid. It's under Sounds & Display under Settings.

 

[iamblades]

not really.

this has been posted before but Apple is pretty much the only player when it comes to mobile app revenue.

http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2010/01/apple-responsible-for-994-of-mobile-app-sales-in-2009.ars

over 99% of all mobile revenue comes from the App Store. that’s… ridiculous.

If Google wants developers to take Android seriously, they need to start promoting the marketplace more and more to potential customers and start improving it so that it’s easier to find what people are looking for.

I will say it again, there were no android phones for the mass market until the last couple months of 2009, and paid apps were not even available for purchase in most markets.

Past performance doesn't really mean much at the speed the market is changing.