Support NeoGAF

[Steeven]

What has the 'Turkey-incident' to do with the fact that Baudet is flirting with Nazi-ideology?

Anyway; scapegoating a minority isn't the way to handle these kind of problems, it creates fear for the 'other', without merits and or proper cause. Baudet sounds like someone who has a big (unfounded) fear of multiculturism.

It proves his point that we undermine our society if we don't tighten our immigration AND integration policies. Has nothing to do with nazi rhetoric, but keep telling yourself that. He literally said everyone is welcome as long as you respect the constitution.

The thing is that we cannot discuss these topics anymore because it always leads to these sorts of discussions: you disagree so your are a nazi. Congratz, but I'm done here.

 

[Kabouter]

The thing is that I would like an EU army actually, then we don't have to indefinitely support a country that invades others on false pretenses, while also excluding another that is simply a danger to the free world. To some that may not be in line with our core values either, which is my point.

This reeks of false equivalency to me. Would you really say conquering territory and adding it to your nation is the same as an intervention? And one can't even truly say that America just creates protectorates anymore either given how Iraq and Iran are now close allies, a nation the US has deeply hostile relations with. I'd really like to know what on earth would justify us dropping sanctions with Russia, especially given the ongoing illegal war in the Donbass and the resulting shooting down of MH17. Why should that not make me question whether or not someone's values are in line with our core values?

 

[Steeven]

This reeks of false equivalency to me. Would you really say conquering territory and adding it to your nation is the same as an intervention? And one can't even truly say that America just creates protectorates anymore either given how Iraq and Iran are now close allies, a nation the US has deeply hostile relations with.

No, but if you consider the rule of law as one of your core aspects as a nation, which I think we may agree The Netherlands has, than you cannot bash Russia exclusively and neglect what the US has done.

 

[ClosingADoor]

No, but if you consider the rule of law as one of your core aspects as a nation, which I think we may agree The Netherlands has, than you cannot bash Russia exclusively and neglect what the US has done.

There is a large difference, since Russia is active within Ukraine right now and has annexed part of their country, while Iraq has its own government and if they want can kick out any American soldier if they want.

By constantly pointing at others and saying "they are bad too" you are shifting focus away from the actual issue. The issue is not about America, it is about Russia.

 

[Steeven]

There is a large difference, since Russia is active within Ukraine right now and has annexed part of their country, while Iraq has its own government and if they want can kick out any American soldier if they want.

By constantly pointing at others and saying "they are bad too" you are shifting focus away from the actual issue. The issue is not about America, it is about Russia.

No, my point is that it is hypocritical to bash one nation, while the other is not so different and enjoys great support. Russia supporting the illegal war in Ukraine is no different than the US supporting wars all over the world. If one says that someone does not uphold the core values of The Netherlands by removing sanctions against Russia (which I disagree with btw), then what are these core values worth if you neglect them with the other party? Let us be consequent then if we really stand for these values.

 

[ClosingADoor]

No, my point is that it is hypocritical to bash one nation, while the other is not so different and enjoys great support. Russia supporting the illegal war in Ukraine is no different than the US supporting wars all over the world. If one says that someone does not uphold the core values of The Netherlands by removing sanctions against Russia (which I disagree with btw), then what are these core values worth if you neglect them with the other party? Let us be consequent then if we really stand for these values.

You might have missed the anti-American sentiment in the EU during the Bush years then.

Can you give me one good reason why the Russia sanctions need to be removed as long as that country is active in a civil war in Ukraine and has occupied and annexed part of its territory?

 

[Steeven]

You might have missed the anti-American sentiment in the EU during the Bush years then.

Can you give me one good reason why the Russia sanctions need to be removed as long as that country is active in a civil war in Ukraine and has occupied and annexed part of its territory?

I just said I don't support removing the sanctions. I don't support Russia at all. My point was about defending your core values against one or another. But it is obvious that Russia is the bigger evil if course, by far. Although, with Trump in office we may be surprised.

 

[SxP]

This discussion about Baudet is funny because I know some people here at my work that vote FvD. And they're all pretty similar in some respects. When you point out the questionable things Baudet does and supports, it's a "conspiracy by the left media". And not just that, everything that doesn't support their world view is a "left-wing conspiracy".

None of them are racist, like Baudet, or thinks rape can be okay in some circumstances, like Baudet, but those things aren't supported by FvD (or at least ostensibly). So I can kinda get why they would support the party, as FvD is populism directed right at them (lower taxes by more than is actually feasible, a lot of macho talk about taking back control and such). And then they just cannot fathom that Baudet might be a scumbag, or that their worldview might not always be right. So it must be a conspiracy.

In that sense, they're much like Wilders voters. But tell that to them and they get offended.

I'm not trying to generalize all FvD voters, but this is just something I noticed among several people at my work and also on the Internet.

 

[Carn82]

http://politiek.tpo.nl/2017/03/16/t...ten-anderhalf-tot-twee-keer-zo-hoog-als-rest/

Volgens Baudet is dat toe te schrijven aan de kwaliteit van de kandidaten. “Als je onze top 30 vergelijkt met die van eigenlijk alle andere partijen is het gemiddelde IQ anderhalf tot twee keer zo hoog. We hebben gewoon héle goede mensen.”

So, he is basically saying that all other political parties consist of candidates who are mentally handicapped. What a guy.

 

[Dehnus]

This discussion about Baudet is funny because I know some people here at my work that vote FvD. And they're all pretty similar in some respects. When you point out the questionable things Baudet does and supports, it's a "conspiracy by the left media". And not just that, everything that doesn't support their world view is a "left-wing conspiracy".

None of them are racist, like Baudet, or thinks rape can be okay in some circumstances, like Baudet, but those things aren't supported by FvD (or at least ostensibly). So I can kinda get why they would support the party, as FvD is populism directed right at them (lower taxes by more than is actually feasible, a lot of macho talk about taking back control and such). And then they just cannot fathom that Baudet might be a scumbag, or that their worldview might not always be right. So it must be a conspiracy.

In that sense, they're much like Wilders voters. But tell that to them and they get offended.

I'm not trying to generalize all FvD voters, but this is just something I noticed among several people at my work and also on the Internet.

Tell that to the preacher they harassed in thanks for allowing them to debate in his church. .

 

[Fallout-NL]

Dutch culture is just as illusionary a concept as dutch race would be. Culture in general is quite hard to define.

But go ahead and protect what you feel needs protection. I'll do my part to mix it out with foreign influences as good as I'll can

It's a very lame excuse. It changes nothing in Baudet's statement, because no one can explain the difference.

Agreed.

 

[Spiral Insanity]

Dutch culture exists, Belgian culture exists, Moroccan culture exists, Turkish culture exists, .... We shouldn't deny that, but culture isn't exclusive to any race or religion and can be enjoyed and contributed to by all. And just like people, it often enriches when it comes in contact with others.

(I'm not saying that in regards to Baudet, at all, just responding to the first quote above)

 

[Steeven]

Dutch culture exists, Belgian culture exists, Moroccan culture exists, Turkish culture exists, .... We shouldn't deny that, but culture isn't exclusive to any race or religion and can be enjoyed and contributed to by all. And just like people, it often enriches when it comes in contact with others.

I totally agree with that, but I am not tolerant against those who are intolerant towards our constitution and associated values. Rising levels of anti-Semitism, homosexuals being assaulted, free speech being thwarted by threats, and not being able to lecture on the Holocaust, are all worrying aspects to me and I don't care whether someone is born here or just arrived; we (as in, all of us no matter the ancestry) need to stand firmer to protect these values. That is what I believe at least.

 

[ClosingADoor]

I just said I don't support removing the sanctions. I don't support Russia at all. My point was about defending your core values against one or another. But it is obvious that Russia is the bigger evil if course, by far. Although, with Trump in office we may be surprised.

When America annexes another country, I'll expect the EU to do something also.

I totally agree with that, but I am not tolerant against those who are intolerant towards our constitution and associated values. Rising levels of anti-Semitism, homosexuals being assaulted, free speech being thwarted by threats, and not being able to lecture on the Holocaust, are all worrying aspects to me and I don't care whether someone is born here or just arrived; we (as in, all of us no matter the ancestry) need to stand firmer to protect these values. That is what I believe at least.

Agreed. But the way Baudet is going about it and views the world is a toxic one, on the level of the alt-right, which does not offer any real solutions.

 

[JDB]

Ok so we should break with the US too then? They did even worse in the Middle-East. The only difference is that they didn't annex anything.

Hm, this is a familiar argument.

 

[norinrad]

I totally agree with that, but I am not tolerant against those who are intolerant towards our constitution and associated values. Rising levels of anti-Semitism, homosexuals being assaulted, free speech being thwarted by threats, and not being able to lecture on the Holocaust, are all worrying aspects to me and I don't care whether someone is born here or just arrived; we (as in, all of us no matter the ancestry) need to stand firmer to protect these values. That is what I believe at least.

Bigots come in all colors and has nothing to do with culture. Homosexuals aren't safe inlands either, and nether are immigrants. A Dutch family cannot live in certain neighborhoods in Drenthe either because people in the neighborhood claim they have no knowledge of Molukku culture. Your post reeks of stealth hatred towards a certain group in this country.

What values are you exactly protecting, having a job and paying taxes while you keep quiet?

 

[Steeven]

When America annexes another country, I'll expect the EU to do something also.

Agreed. But the way Baudet is going about it and views the world is a toxic one, on the level of the alt-right, which does not offer any real solutions.

I think we have to agree to disagree. I think his party actually offers practical solutions that don't discriminate minorities, don't need changing of our constitution, and add value to some of or most important basic principles that are under pressure.

Other quick wins but not promoted by any party can be focused on people who came here and actually want to fit in but don't get the chance. They are not allowed to work, not allowed to go to school, for several years also, which benefits no-one. If you want good citizens that are well-integrated, please unleash them while they have the chance to become them.

Bigots come in all colors and has nothing to do with culture. Homosexuals aren't safe inlands either, and nether are immigrants. A Dutch family cannot live in certain neighborhoods in Drenthe either because people in the neighborhood claim they have no knowledge of Molukku culture. Your post reeks of stealth hatred towards a certain group in this country.

What values are you exactly protecting, having a job and paying taxes while you keep quiet?

The only bigot here is you accusing everyone with different view points of nazism.

But regarding your post, if they aren't safe inlands either (I never heard of this, but lets assume you don't talk bullshit for once), then people who harass them should have no place here either. Better luck next time kid.

 

[Toxi]

Reading the descriptions in the OP, as an uninformed American... Both PVV and VVD sound pretty unpalatable. PVV sounds like a cult of personality, VVD sounds like US Republicans pre-cult of personality... But this is the Netherlands, so VVD is probably not as extreme as US Republicans have been.

Hope that the result is decent for all the Dutch posters here.

 

[Large Professor]

Reading the descriptions in the OP, as an uninformed American... Both PVV and VVD sound pretty unpalatable. PVV sounds like a cult of personality, VVD sounds like US Republicans pre-cult of personality... But this is the Netherlands, so VVD is probably not as extreme as US Republicans have been.

Hope that the result is decent for all the Dutch posters here.

Nah

The VVD is probably to the left of the democrats on social & economic issues.

Our Republicans are the SGP on "moral" issues and the libertarian party on economic issues. So about 3 seats in total.

 

[Toxi]

Nah

The VVD is probably to the left of the democrats on social & economic issues.

Then you're doing a hell of a lot better than we are.

 

[norinrad]

The only bigot here is you accusing everyone with different view points of nazism.

But regarding your post, if they aren't safe inlands either (I never heard of this, but lets assume you don't talk bullshit for once), then people who harass them should have no place here either. Better luck next time kid.

You sure about that Steeven?

of course you never hear of it because it usually never is reported and where exactly do you want to send the people who harass them to when you say they have no place here either? Care to share what you mean by that?

There are lots of stories like these, of course you never heard it. And calm down, you seem to be accusing everyone of something.

http://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/binnenland/niels-kwam-uit-de-kast-de-biblebelt-ik-was-het-pispaaltje

https://www.movisie.nl/sites/default/files/LHBT-feiten-cijfers.pdf

http://www.ad.nl/binnenland/homogeweld-vooral-door-blanke-man~aba8c893/

hehehe i know this is not the best link, it being from GS and all, but the point stands.

http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven/2014/05/genant_nederland_haat_homos.html

 

[Antagon]

Nah

The VVD is probably to the left of the democrats on social & economic issues.

Our Republicans are the SGP on "moral" issues and the libertarian party on economic issues. So about 3 seats in total.

I wouldn't put the VVD on the left of the democrats on both social and economic issues. Probably more comparable to the moderate branch of democrats. Mostly pro free market, but at the same time they definitely wouldn't introduce a healthcare system that would be unobtainable for everyone. They do tend to be more on the progressive side on a lot of social issues, but at the same time have become pretty nationalistic and pro 'Dutch culture' in a lot of regards.

 

[Steeven]

You sure about that Steeven?

of course you never hear of it because it usually never is reported and where exactly do you want to send the people who harass them to when you say they have no place here either? Care to share what you mean by that?

There are lots of stories like these, of course you never heard it. And calm down, you seem to be accusing everyone of something.

http://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/binnenland/niels-kwam-uit-de-kast-de-biblebelt-ik-was-het-pispaaltje

https://www.movisie.nl/sites/default/files/LHBT-feiten-cijfers.pdf

http://www.ad.nl/binnenland/homogeweld-vooral-door-blanke-man~aba8c893/

hehehe i know this is not the best link, it being from GS and all, but the point stands.

http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven/2014/05/genant_nederland_haat_homos.html

Yes, I am sure. And what am I accusing people of exactly? I simply call you put on your pathetic attempts to frame others as racists. Now you begin accusing me of 'sending' people somewhere, really? Did you even bother reading my other posts? Apparently not. I am not going to repeat myself just because you cannot read comprehensively, but to answer your question: we have laws so the only place people will be send to is jail I think. Any other ridiculous accusations you want to present?

 

[gutter_trash]

Reading the descriptions in the OP, as an uninformed American... Both PVV and VVD sound pretty unpalatable. PVV sounds like a cult of personality, VVD sounds like US Republicans pre-cult of personality... But this is the Netherlands, so VVD is probably not as extreme as US Republicans have been.

Hope that the result is decent for all the Dutch posters here.

As a Canadian, VVD sounds more like a Center-Center-Right in-between of a Brian Mulroney Progressive Conservative and a Paul Martin Liberal


US Republicans are Hard Right and hsve been for 40 years. VVD sounds nothing like our American neighbors

 

[Carn82]

It proves his point that we undermine our society if we don't tighten our immigration AND integration policies. Has nothing to do with nazi rhetoric, but keep telling yourself that. He literally said everyone is welcome as long as you respect the constitution.

You're constantly pulling a 'whataboutism' and deflecting. I want you to defend Baudet's statement (or atleast come with a valid, humane argument why he is correct):

”Die zelfhaat die we proberen te ontstijgen [..] door de Nederlandse bevolking homeopathisch te verdunnen met alle volkeren van de wereld, zodat er nooit meer een Nederlander zal bestaan. Zodat wie wij zijn, niet meer gestalte kan krijgen."

The Turkey-riot is a bad example as well. If some football hooligans start a riot, does that make them destroy our precious Dutch identity?

 

[runningjoke]

As a Canadian, VVD sounds more like a Center-Center-Right in-between of a Brian Mulroney Progressive Conservative and a Paul Martin Liberal


US Republicans are Hard Right and hsve been for 40 years. VVD sounds nothing like our American neighbors

VVD are supposed to be liberal, but because of Wilders they moved more to the right. In terms of actual ideology their are much closer to Obama than to republicans

 

[Spiral Insanity]

People like Steeven need to stop blaming these huge groups of people. Stop it. It is idiotic, it is an excuse, focus on your own problems.

Nobody is taking anything away from you. You have a rich country with plenty of room and opportunities for everyone.

Immigration is a beautiful thing. Embrace it, it is not going away. The world is only getting smaller.

I hope we can now make a move to institute a dutch identity​ that safeguards citizens and helps ethnic minorities. It is wrong for people born in our country to be called 'allochtoon'- it says to those people they will always be different, it encourages segregation, and it helps oppressors disguise their hatred.

It is inconceivable to ask people to have an allegiance and then not give them full rights in return.

Truth.

 

[ClosingADoor]

People like Steeven need to stop blaming these huge groups of people. Stop it. It is idiotic, it is an excuse, focus on your own problems.

Nobody is taking anything away from you. You have a rich country with plenty of room and opportunities for everyone.

Immigration is a beautiful thing. Embrace it, it is not going away. The world is only getting smaller.

There are some actual problems with immigration and integration. If you look at the stats of the prison population and people on welfare, that is pretty clear. The causes for that however are far from clear and need work from all sides. Just saying "we are rich and have plenty of room" will not solve that divide.

Immigration is good, but there need to be a certain amount of checks on it, because unfortunately, the world isn't fair and we can not sustain a welfare state like we have now if we don't make sure that the people coming can work and contribute at the same level as everyone else.

But first things first, we need to solve #tostigate!

 

[Steeven]

You're constantly pulling a 'whataboutism' and deflecting. I want you to defend Baudet's statement (or atleast come with a valid, humane argument why he correct):



The Turkey-riot is a bad example as well. If some football hooligans start a riot, does that make them destroy our precious Dutch identity?

It is not a bad example because they prove their loyalty lies with Erdogan and not with the country they live in. Hooligans don't have political statements when rioting. They openly support a dictator that undermines everything we stand for, hooligans don't. That's why it matters. Same goes with those lunatics that march with ISIS flags in the Schilderswijk, or NVU protests for that matter. All failed subcultures.

Why do I need to defend that remark? I already pointed out that Baudet was called on it in Pauw and Jinek and that he meant culture, not race. If you don't accept that as an explanation, be my guest. I don't care for Baudet as a person at all, so even if he turns out to be a full blown racist, he still has a political party with non-racist viewpoints and many other members of which SOME of their policy ideas appeal to me. It really depends on the subject whether I consider myself left or right.

 

[Nokterian]

VVD are supposed to be liberal, but because of Wilders they moved more to the right. In terms of actual ideology their are much closer to Obama than to republicans

VVD lost there liberal a long long time ago, there not liberal anymore. And laying down the facts of thiery and people showing there ignorance shows no bounds, that is dangerous.

 

[Steeven]

People like Steeven need to stop blaming these huge groups of people. Stop it. It is idiotic, it is an excuse, focus on your own problems.

Nobody is taking anything away from you. You have a rich country with plenty of room and opportunities for everyone.

Immigration is a beautiful thing. Embrace it, it is not going away. The world is only getting smaller.



Truth.

Again, what is with the accusations? Which groups am I blaming, for what? People are putting words in my mouth without shame here. Shame on you dude or learn to fucking read.

 

[ClosingADoor]

VVD lost there liberal a long long time ago, there not liberal anymore. And laying down the facts of thiery and people showing there ignorance shows no bounds, that is dangerous.

Around the world there are multiple definitions of liberal. In this case, it means less interference from the government. But also not conservative on social issues.

In the US and UK they use another definition then we do in Holland when talking about liberal politics.

 

[Carn82]

It is not a bad example because they prove their loyalty lies with Erdogan and not with the country they live in. Hooligans don't have political statements when rioting. They openly support a dictator that undermines everything we stand for, hooligans don't. That's why it matters. Same goes with those lunatics that march with ISIS flags in the Schilderswijk, or NVU protests for that matter. All failed subcultures.

Why do I need to defend that remark? I already pointed out that Baudet was called on it in Pauw and Jinek and that he meant culture, not race. If you don't accept that as an explanation, be my guest. I don't care for Baudet as a person at all, so even if he turns out to be a full blown racist, he still has a political party with non-racist viewpoints and many other members of which SOME of their policy ideas appeal to me. It really depends on the subject whether I consider myself left or right.

And rioting hooligans prove that they don't respect the law and are OK with violence. My point is that it's a subset of a minority that isnt behaving like they "should". But I fail to see the relevance how a bunch of rioting Turks degrade our Dutch identity. Sure, if suddenly every Turk in The Netherlands took it to the streets you would have a point, but did that happen? No. far from it. Pointing at the exceptions of the rule (or statistical outliers) isn't proving anything, one could actually say that in this case, basically all Dutch-Turkish residents behaved just fine.

But ok, I guess you're agreeing that Baudet is quite a PoS, or at least is showing signs of being one. I can live with that. But I can't fathom why you would support a party that puts a guy like that on their #1 spot. He is their #1 for a reason.

 

[Spiral Insanity]

There are some actual problems with immigration and integration. If you look at the stats of the prison population and people on welfare, that is pretty clear. The causes for that however are far from clear and need work from all sides. Just saying "we are rich and have plenty of room" will not solve that divide.

Immigration is good, but there need to be a certain amount of checks on it, because unfortunately, the world isn't fair and we can not sustain a welfare state like we have now if we don't make sure that the people coming can work and contribute at the same level as everyone else.

But first things first, we need to solve #tostigate!

I wasn't claiming it was that easy.

I remember that growing up in Belgium, we placed a huge stigma on Moroccan and Turkish youth. This needs to stop already. These people need to be seen as 'Dutch' or 'Belgian' first, and not as 'alochtonen' as someone else said.

If their own country treats them as aliens how can we expect all of them to find their place in society? How would you feel with all this constant hate-speech that blames you and accuses you just for being you, for what you look like or your religion? And stop talking as if they're all in prison or on welfare, simply ridiculous.

 

[Spiral Insanity]

Again, what is with the accusations? Which groups am I blaming, for what? People are putting words in my mouth without shame here. Shame on you dude or learn to fucking read.

You have a fucking Eugenics philosopher as an avatar, you are not really making this hard.

 

[norinrad]

Yes, I am sure. And what am I accusing people of exactly? I simply call you put on your pathetic attempts to frame others as racists. Now you begin accusing me of 'sending' people somewhere, really? Did you even bother reading my other posts? Apparently not. I am not going to repeat myself just because you cannot read comprehensively, but to answer your question: we have laws so the only place people will be send to is jail I think. Any other ridiculous accusations you want to present?

No what you are doing is calling people names. You are the one being pathetic, if I had voted for the PVV I would have had valid reasons for doing so and not because of Wilders and his anti Islam parade. You voted for FVD championed by a guy who says things that most see as pretty shitty, you then go on accusing people for calling you out.

 

[ClosingADoor]

I wasn't claiming it was that easy.

I remember that growing up in Belgium, we placed a huge stigma on Moroccan and Turkish youth. This needs to stop already. These people need to be seen as 'Dutch' or 'Belgian' first, and not as 'alochtonen' as someone else said.

If their own country treats them as aliens how can we expect all of them to find their place in society? How would you feel with all this constant hate-speech that blames you and accuses you just for being you, for what you look like or your religion?

Thing is, you can also turn that argument around. How can we expect society to be welcoming, if we see a portion of immigrants and their children pushing away from our society by becoming more conservative in their religion, sometimes even extremist, causing trouble, not being accepting of gay people, and now see Turkey going crazy with everything that comes with it. It's a two way street, just need to make sure the extremists on either side don't take over the conversation too much.

 

[Aiii]

Thing is, you can also turn that argument around. How can we expect society to be welcoming, if we see a portion of immigrants and their children pushing away from our society by becoming more conservative in their religion, sometimes even extremist, causing trouble, not being accepting of gay people, and now see Turkey going crazy with everything that comes with it. It's a two way street, just need to make sure the extremists on either side don't take over the conversation too much.

Yep, a FB friend of mine liked a video from DENK where Kuzu left a broken rose for Jan Roos in the Tweede Kamer (funny idea), and I made the mistake of reading the comments.

The amount of times it had people in there talking about how DENK was going to end the reign of the "Zionist Pigs" legitimately scared me. These people exist, too.

But the thing is, we should be scared of both sides of this coin. Not feed one because the other exists. It is absolutely vital that the vast majority of reasonable Dutch folks stay reasonable and don't get ourselves distracted by focussing on extremists as that will only lead to division and more extremism.

Keep cool, keep reasonable, and keep being accepting of each other despite our differences and we will be fine.

 

[Steeven]

And rioting hooligans prove that they don't respect the law and are OK with violence. My point is that it's a subset of a minority that isnt behaving like they "should". But I fail to see the relevance how a bunch of rioting Turks degrade our Dutch identity. Sure, if suddenly every Turk in The Netherlands took it to the streets you would have a point, but did that happen? No. far from it. Pointing at the exceptions of the rule (or statistical outliers) isn't proving anything, one could actually say that in this case, basically all Dutch-Turkish residents behaved just fine.

But ok, I guess you're agreeing that Baudet is quite a PoS, or at least is showing signs of being one. I can live with that. But I can't fathom why you would support a party that puts a guy like that on their #1 spot. He is their #1 for a reason.

As I said, the difference is their political motivation, and especially their support of a dictator. I am NOT saying this applies to all Turks, but I DO consider these kinds of movements as integration failures. It saddens me these people don't value what they have here, and consider how little they would have over there. Just think of the many thousands that are imprisoned without a trial, just horrible. It seems we don't agree on the impact, that is fine, I find it worrying. I do agree with you that this cannot be pinpointed as a general rule to certain social groups of course, but apparently we still have several challenges ahead in terms of integration.

If you want to know, Hiddema was the one who convinced me, not Baudet. Some of their policy proposals fall in line with VVD or D66, others are more conservative, really depends on the issue. I totally disagree with their views on the EU for example, but I don't think their plans on that matter are realistic so that is not an issue for me.

 

[Steeven]

You have a fucking Eugenics philosopher as an avatar, you are not really making this hard.

you don't even know the difference between Schopenhauer and Nietzsche? Get the fuck out of here.

Tell me what did Schopenhauer say about eugenetics?

Edit - I am truly flabbergasted by your stupidity.

No what you are doing is calling people names. You are the one being pathetic, if I had voted for the PVV I would have had valid reasons for doing so and not because of Wilders and his anti Islam parade. You voted for FVD championed by a guy who says things that most see as pretty shitty, you then go on accusing people for calling you out.

You are calling out people with words you don't even understand dude. You are desperate in looking for racist remarks but cannot find any. Newsflash; there are no racists in this thread. Maybe you should consider voting Denk instead of PP.

 

[Spiral Insanity]

you don't even know the difference between Schopenhauer and Nietzsche? Get the fuck out of here.

Tell me what did Schopenhauer say about eugenetics?

Edit - I am truly flabbergasted by your stupidity.

Are you not informed? Why do you think I am talking about Nietzsche?

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Schopenhauer#Heredity_and_eugenics

In another context, Schopenhauer reiterated his antidemocratic-eugenic thesis: "If you want Utopian plans, I would say: the only solution to the problem is the despotism of the wise and noble members of a genuine aristocracy, a genuine nobility, achieved by mating the most magnanimous men with the cleverest and most gifted women. This proposal constitutes my Utopia and my Platonic Republic."[74] Analysts (e.g., Keith Ansell-Pearson) have suggested that Schopenhauer's advocacy of anti-egalitarianism and eugenics influenced the neo-aristocratic philosophy of Friedrich Nietzsche, who initially considered Schopenhauer his mentor.[75]

Here's another good quote from your little avatar idol, let me bold it for you.

The highest civilization and culture, apart from the ancient Hindus and Egyptians, are found exclusively among the white races; and even with many dark peoples, the ruling caste, or race, is fairer than the rest, and has, therefore, evidently immigrated, for example, the Brahmins, the Inca, and the rulers of the South Sea Islands. All this is due to the fact that necessity is the mother of invention, because those tribes that emigrated early to the north, and there gradually became white, had to develop all their intellectual powers, and invent and perfect all the arts in their struggle with need, want and misery, which in their many forms, were brought about by the climate. This they had to do in order to make up for the parsimony of nature, and out of it came their high civilization.

Guess the source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_supremacy#Ideologies_and_movements

Don't tell me you didn't know about this. Check and mate.

 

[norinrad]

You are calling out people with words you don't even understand dude. You are desperate in looking for racist remarks but cannot find any. Newsflash; there are no racists in this thread. Maybe you should consider voting Denk instead of PP.

News flash indeed.

 

[Steeven]

Are you not informed? Why do you think I am talking about Nietzsche?

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Schopenhauer#Heredity_and_eugenics

Oh wow you google-searched because you talk shit. I actually read Schopenhauer and he promotes some great life lessons in regards to depression, perception, boredom and the meaning of life. You should read it ,you might learn something.

It is generally known that Nietzsche took eugenics to a different level, hence my remark.

Guess the source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_supremacy#Ideologies_and_movements

Don't tell me you didn't know about this. Check and mate.

You know nothing about context, do you?

 

[Spiral Insanity]

Oh wow you google-searched because you talk shit. I actually read Schopenhauer and he promotes some great life lessons in regards to depression, perception, boredom and the meaning of life. You should read it ,you might learn something.

It is generally known that Nietzsche took eugenics to a different level, hence my remark.

Did you read my post? He is a white supremacist/eugenics guy. You even added the dutch flag to it.
Great life lessons indeed! Oh right, context.

 

[Steeven]

Did you read my post? He is a white supremacist/eugenics guy. Great life lessons indeed! Oh right, context.

Just because you didn't read the multiple books he has written, doesn't mean he fills them up with your presented rhetoric. You assume something based on my avatar, pretend to know something as well by using the first hits that appear on Google. Good job dude.

Schopenhauer's legacy consists of his pessimistic worldview and the meaningless of life. His one notion with social darwinist tendencies is not something he is associated with, because he mostly talks about other stuff in his books. My point is that you are cherry-picking an aspect out of a complete repertoire, while clearly you meant Nietzsche, who actually ís associated with that line of thought. Then you also assume that is also my worldview.

You even added the dutch flag to it.

Yes, I am a member of this board for many years now and a long time ago people received a flag during the World Cup. But it was too much a hassle for the mods so people added their own. Kabouter can actually confirm this. Is also quite useful on an international board.

 

[Kabouter]

Can we please stop the personal attacks and derailing?

 

[Condom]

Ugh a colleague voted PVV with the reasoning that if people break the law that they should be deported. Making me, somebody born and raised here, a second rate citizen.

I kept silent but it amazes me how people you work or live with can advocate for the removal of my rights as a Dutch citizen without a blink or any remorse. That's pretty evil.

People who aren't born here ('green card' only) are already deported based on current laws by the way, seems like PVV voters don't even know that.

 

[Pancake Mix]

Now Rutte almost certainly will lead the Netherlands' next coalition government. For that, he can thank, in part, a last-minute stroke of luck not of his own making: a diplomatic spat with Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, which gave Rutte a chance to play elder statesman and tough guy. And in part, it was thanks to his own ability not so much to defeat Wilders' anti-immigrant rhetoric as to absorb and wield the same message to build momentum in the closing days of the campaign.

...

Erdoğan's insistence to hold a referendum rally in Rotterdam for the Dutch Turkish diaspora gave Rutte the perfect opportunity to look strong and dominate the final days of the campaign. The prime minister blocked one Turkish minister from entering the Netherlands and expelled his replacement when she arrived by car, earning the admiration of even some of his fiercest rivals.

”It turned out to be something very important in the campaign," said ten Broeke of the Freedom Party. ”I think many people then recognized that when push came to shove we were also willing to draw that line in the sand on an issue that was so much intertwined with our identity and our values."

http://www.politico.eu/article/mark-ruttes-right-kind-of-populism/

Good analysis. Erdogan failed in his attempt to cause chaos, it backfired, thankfully.

 

[Antagon]

Well, the coalition formation process just started. Interesting is that Segers from the CU (Christian Union) suggested forming a coalition with the parties that gained most seats in it. That would suggest a VVD / CDA / D66 / GL cabinet instead of VVD / CDA / D66 /CU. Would definitely be my preferred option.

 

[Carn82]

Talks seem to have stalled.
http://nos.nl/artikel/2173341-schippers-gesprekken-formatie-vastgelopen.html