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OT | Dutch General Election 2017 | Exit Poll: Major underperformance for Wilders
- Thread starter CrunchyB
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That was already pointed out in the PenJ talkshow and was taken out of context. I don't believe he is a racist, but even if he was, we should focus on discussing the issues at stake, which is exactly one of his main arguments. The reason the PVV still has 20 seats is because we cannot have this discussion; people are called out for either being racist or being a hippy, which in both cases is not true most of the time. We need to find a balance between acceptable immigration and sustainable integration policies if people really want to make the PVV go away.
Paasei
Member
Considering how much influence the EU parliament has, I think it does a whole lot more than those things. Then again I also can't remember that times were bad when there was no European Union.
Obviously it works a lot easier this way for the large(r) companies who already have billions in revenue.
And sometimes, although that can also be called my "fear", it seems that they are only there to please those companies in order to get a nice job once they are done with politics.
Considering the CETA and TTIP are highly protested against and being pretty much ignored. As I am not yet finished reading these pacts I cannot form a fair opinion of them myself just yet.
And when it comes to safety then why do we have the NATO/NAVO? I once learned at school that when you declare war on a NATO state, you declare war on them all? Ofcourse safety is not all about preventing war, I know that, but still.
People really have to stop spreading nonsense like this, rofl. "Away with us mentality", such a great way of living...
Meh Rutte the liar who ruined the lives of alot of elderly people or the Trump like Wilders.
Both are bad and both ruin lives of the middle and lower class probably.
Mark is the lesser evil but how he neglected elderly homecare and elderly homes is a damn shame and his biggest blunder imo.
Elderly people are underfed and sometimes can only go to the toilet twice a day wich is really sad so in some cases a jail is even better to life in wich is insane honestly!
Also he ruined home healthcare there are not enough home nurses because of all the savings he made in that front wich is sad same case for the elderly people was also saving on government funding on that wich is why it is heavily neglected now.
He promised to fix it this term but knowing that he is a common liar i have my doubts about that.
Both are bad and both ruin lives of the middle and lower class probably.
Mark is the lesser evil but how he neglected elderly homecare and elderly homes is a damn shame and his biggest blunder imo.
Elderly people are underfed and sometimes can only go to the toilet twice a day wich is really sad so in some cases a jail is even better to life in wich is insane honestly!
Also he ruined home healthcare there are not enough home nurses because of all the savings he made in that front wich is sad same case for the elderly people was also saving on government funding on that wich is why it is heavily neglected now.
He promised to fix it this term but knowing that he is a common liar i have my doubts about that.
He's forming a coalition, the other parties are there to keep him in check. 50plus is going to be making quite a lot of noise either in his coalition or outside of it.
The European parliament's influence is grossly overstated. All real power rests with the European Council, and thus the member states. As far as your memory, it is unlikely you remember a time when NL wasn't deeply economically linked to Germany. The guilder was tied to the Dmark directly or indirectly for decades because that stability was essential to protect our imports/exports. Ironically, our influence over our own monetary policy effectively grew when we joined the Euro.
Considering the fact that the EU is a lot tougher on for instance cartels than individual member states (who tend to want to protect 'their' companies), that seems unlikely. After all, while NL might want to look the other way when DAF is involved in pricing agreements with other truck manufacturers, most member states have no interest in that and would rather not see such things occurring, and will thus ensure there is action.
Similarly, individual member states love to favour their corporations with state support, and are often only prevented from doing so by EU regulations designed to make sure member states don't start a rat race with each other in terms of state support for certain industries.
As you say safety goes beyond just military, it's also border security (which is feasible for the EU as a whole, but not for all member states individually given all the internal borders you're unnecessarily policing and the economic cost associated with doing so), it's cooperation between police and so many other things.
As far as military goes though, yes, NATO has been good for us, but it has also created an unhealthy dependence on the US for our defence. And despite the fact that the EU as a whole spends far more on defence than our Russian neighbours, our fighting strength is not in line with that spending. After all, all these tiny militaries have a ton of redundancy and will not function well together in the event of a conflict, nor do they possess the logistic infrastructure for large scale operations. That is why in any engagement, even limited ones, we have relied on the United States.
It is worrying to read that an alt-right/nazi person got 2 seats in parliament
Also, in general disappointed with the results as it's a right-winged government that's also willing to embrace the same racist policies of the far-right. The center has really moved right these these days.
Also, in general disappointed with the results as it's a right-winged government that's also willing to embrace the same racist policies of the far-right. The center has really moved right these these days.
ClosingADoor
Member
Not saying it is easy, but the other posters wants the EU as a thing for safety, so then you need to link the systems together. Which at the moment would mean more EU instead of less.
The guy is literally saying Dutch people will disappear when we mix with other people. I can't really make anything else from that beside him being racist as hell. Couple that with his abhorrent views on women, being a Trump supporter and visiting other alt-right figures, I don't know how we can draw any other conclusion then that he is alt-right himself.
He did not say that at all, where are you getting your information from? He said that if we continue to allow mass immigration to run amock, and continue to fail with our integration policies, it will undermine Dutch culture (not race) in the long term. Hence his proposal that everyone, current inhabitants and new, should respect several important aspects in the constitution. He also said everyone is welcome as long as they respect our values in the constitution. Sounds fair to me because it only excludes those with world views that undermine our society, we already have enough issues with those groups.
Fallout-NL
Member
Yup, dude is dangerous.
No matter his intentions or frustrations, that kind of language - the kind that lacks any nuance - is dangerous and inexcusable for a supposed statesman. He should be diffusing tensions, not adding to them.
I still don't think he was being harsh. Job Cohen unfortunately though a good mayor, never really recovered from being called a "thee drinker" and most saw him as soft. Do I agree with what Rutte said? No, do I understand his frustrations for saying do yes.
Dutch culture is just as illusionary a concept as dutch race would be. Culture in general is quite hard to define.
But go ahead and protect what you feel needs protection. I'll do my part to mix it out with foreign influences as good as I'll can
It's a very lame excuse. It changes nothing in Baudet's statement, because no one can explain the difference.
ClosingADoor
Member
”Die zelfhaat die we proberen te ontstijgen [..] door de Nederlandse bevolking homeopathisch te verdunnen met alle volkeren van de wereld, zodat er nooit meer een Nederlander zal bestaan. Zodat wie wij zijn, niet meer gestalte kan krijgen."
https://medium.com/@sanderphilipse/...ed-van-thierry-baudet-3464b8efdc91#.2ltlxrd9s
I mean... what do I need to make off that?
He blamed the fall of the Roman Empire to there not being any ethnic Romans anymore, and that before they were of a more Northern European appearance. So apparently the decay of the Romans was due to them mixing with other races?
He hangs out with Milo Yiannopoulos. He goes around taking pictures with pro-slavery Americans. He has neo-nazi books on his shelf. How much smoke do you need?
I've argued a lot of times on this forum in favor of strict immigration. But this guy clearly has a racist agenda and is not just worrying about whether the current immigration laws and implementation of it is good or bad.
I don't think you know what a nazi actually is. Carefully read my earlier post and try again.
I think it is lame to immediately frame people as racists or nazi, that does not help any discussion at all. Yesterday he proposed to make Aboutaleb Minister of Integration. How dare he, what a racist scumbag.
No thanks, I'm fine. But I would suggest you to do some research into the rise of the NSDAP and think about the paralels there are between that and the things Baudet says.
It is not about the difference between race or culture. It is about not positing culture as something that you feel you can define or protect. Culture is far too dynamic and undefined to posit it as a concept of 'Dutch culture' that one can work to protect.
Their party programm is not racist at all. I'd rather see what FvD will do from here on and then draw my conclusions based on their actions instead of proclaiming them as the next nazi party only because SOME of their views are aligned in the right (not even the extreme right).
But...if everyone current and new needs to respect our fundamental values...why is he himself still here? His values seem more in line with those of Putin's Russia, and given his foreign policy platform, his allegiance is already with Russia anyway.
You don't have to belittle me, I've studied history and I think you talk non-sense.
I don't agree with that, but I also don't support their foreign policy ideas. I think we should stay in the EU, but I do think the EU needs to be reorganized.
It goes beyond just the EU though. Apart from seeking to weaken Europe, he also seeks to 'normalize' relations with Russia and he cast doubt on our investigation into what happened with MH17. I can't square those things with either our core values or with an allegiance to this country.
Yup and to think that men are already attacking woman on social media because of him..is even more worrisome.
ClosingADoor
Member
I also judge someone by the company he keeps and the ideas he has spread before going into politics. And in this case, that is not a good look.
Sure, his program might not be straight up racist. But that doesn't mean the guy running it isn't.
You are sweeping aside a ton of major red flags about this guy and say: we'll see what happens. Why not also look at his previous actions and words then, instead of hoping it will be better in the future?
That's pretty much my point
If you can't make a precise definition of culture, then what are you getting at?Well, to me, Baudet's rhetoric sounds a lot like this:
"I didn't say that the Jews are inferior. I didn't even maintain they are a race. I merely saw that the mixture of different cultures didn't work."
Nope, his aim is not to weaken Europe, but to strengthen this country. I don't agree with him on his solution, but it is totally subjective to state that because he disagrees with you, his allegiance lays somewhere else.
I am not sweeping anything, I just don't buy the idea that he is a racist.
I was more talking about the latter parts of my post in that regard. I would like to think our core values clash with those of a state that conquers territory, not to mention one that killed hundreds of our countrymen during an illegal invasion of a neighbouring sovereign state.
Considering the (real) fascist Turks rallying the other day, I think we have issues, yes. But there are also many more Turks that fit in perfectly here. He never said those aren't welcome.
ClosingADoor
Member
You are ignoring his racist remarks, him meeting with racists, him having racist books and him enjoying support form racists. At what point can we say: well, this guy is probably racist?
That's the problem with types like this. They are just asking questions, or find some ideas interesting, etc, etc. Because they can't come out and clearly state their ideas.
And if he is not racist, then he is pandering towards that group. Which might be just as bad.
Do you think it is a good look for a politician to meet up with alt-right and racist figures, or does that raise any questions about their own ideas?
Yeah, they're not being racist at all! They just want to keep our culture pure.
They call this dog-whistle politics in the US.
Also that one time he said Aboutaleb was ok. Clearly not racist.
I did get a good laugh about their ideas on direct democracy and their "zakenkabinet". Baudet thinks he's some great intellectual but he's being hilariously naive there. He's a spoiled brat who knows nothing about the world and Hiddema is equally far removed from the rest of society. But I'm sure they will save us from our self-hate.
Ok so we should break with the US too then? They did even worse in the Middle-East. The only difference is that they didn't annex anything.
As much as I disagree with America's intervention in Iraq. That's a pretty big difference there, that shouldn't be dismissed as 'the only difference', that's a colossal difference.
ClosingADoor
Member
I see the whataboutism has started here.
I missed the part where the US shot down a plane with 200 of our countrymen in the Middle-east also.
Steev, I know you adore the guy, but you also have to be realistic and look at things critically. We get it, you like his program, but you should not tend a blind eye to the hate and some of the people he chills with. That's kind of a red flag don't you think?
->
The most telling moment may have been when an obscure, German eugenics/neo-nazi text published in 2012 showed up on his bookshelf, thanks to some nice closeups from a Dutch TV show that visited his home.
I'm not kidding. That's a recent neo-nazi text arguing that white people are smarter than people of color, and that immigrants are ruining Germany by interbreeding and therefore diluting the intelligence of the native whites. How much more obvious does it get?
nope, not racist at all.
Paasei
Member
Cut your reply quite a bit, because I do not wish to fill half a page yet again with one post.
Anyway, thank you for actually explaining things instead of immediately calling me any names for having a different opinion. Just like some other people here who can actually go more in depth.
Can't post much more as typing on a phone frustrates me. I'll join in once again when I am back home.
It totally depends on the purpose of the meetings and second if those ideas are actually being defended in public or in their political program. For now this seems like a witch hunt to me. There are many reasons why someone can have certain books, especially if they are historians.
I don't adore him at all, I am just getting tired of leftist rhetoric that everyone who disagrees is a nazi, facist or racist. It is no different than Erdogan.
The guy has a book, oh boy. Everyone who owns Mein Kampf is a nazi now too? Jesus christ guys, settle down.
I have several works of Nietzsche here, and because Nietzsche hated Jews, I am probably anti-Semitic?
I hope we can now make a move to institute a dutch identity​ that safeguards citizens and helps ethnic minorities. It is wrong for people born in our country to be called 'allochtoon'- it says to those people they will always be different, it encourages segregation, and it helps oppressors disguise their hatred.
It is inconceivable to ask people to have an allegiance and then not give them full rights in return.
It is inconceivable to ask people to have an allegiance and then not give them full rights in return.
ClosingADoor
Member
I'd agree with you if these were single incidents. But we are looking at a pattern here. He is a Putin fanboy, anti-EU, says he worries about Dutch culture disappearing, meets with alt-right figures, reads nazi books, holds anti-feminist views, panders to the alt-right. At some point, you just got to say: he is part of the alt-right.
Chuckie
Member
You are being purposely obtuse. A guy who speaks on the purety of the Dutch people and has a neo-nazi book on eugenics is a racist. Especially if that guy is known to meet with alt-right figures.
What has the 'Turkey-incident' to do with the fact that Baudet is flirting with Nazi-ideology?
Anyway; scapegoating a minority isn't the way to handle these kind of problems, it creates fear for the 'other', without merits and or proper cause. Baudet sounds like someone who has a big (unfounded) fear of multiculturism.
The thing is that I would like an EU army actually, then we don't have to indefinitely support a country that invades others on false pretenses, while also excluding another that is simply a danger to the free world. To some that may not be in line with our core values either, which is my point.
There's no question Baudet is of extremely questionable morality. I feel sorry about the people that ended up voting for him unbeknownst to that fact though, I think the political journalists failed on properly reporting on this, though. I know Baudet wasn't a "big fish" this election cycle, but he really shouldn't have been getting any votes.
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