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Pachter: Halo 5 MT brought more money in 6 months than any previous Halo DLCs.

Rodelero

Member
1. It's been 19 months since release and it's still being played more than recent releases

This couldn't be more inaccurate. Halo 5 is behind Black Ops 2, Black Ops 3, Rainbow Six: Siege, Overwatch, Battlefield 1, Infinite Warfare, Destiny, Modern Warfare, The Division, Ghost Recon Wildlands, and Battlefront on the Xbox's Most Played charts in the US. That's just the shooters. It's behind a whole host of games from other genres too. Halo isn't a mega franchise any more. Plenty of marketing, a loyal niche that love it, but it's increasingly irrelevant.

As for this particular story, it's hardly surprising. Halo 5 has a massive MT system in built, and people are far more willing to pay for DLC nowadays.
 

Trup1aya

Member
Your comparing 2004 and 2007 to now which is silly. COD and GTA online are things. They've happened. Same with madden,fifa 2k etc. people are playing more and more games. The reason you owned an Xbox back then was for halo. The reason you own any console not from Nintendo is for 3rd party monsters these days. Black ops 3 and GTA would probably be beating Halo 3 today

Every game you listed was around back then. Halo just became less competitive against those franchises. They improved while halo regressed.

People used to play halo AND those games. Now many of those people skip halo.
 

leeh

Member
Do you have a official source, numbers, that actually prove that H5 sold more in that stretch than H1,2,3,4 or that it had more active players besides Pachter apparently having been told so ?

Silly how defensive people can get. I usually prefer to believe what I see. And unless they release official numbers than excuse me for not believing what someone like Pachter says.
I don't, but obviously Patcher does considering numbers is his bloody profession.

Don't be ridiculous and you won't get snappy replies back. Just because it doesn't fit with your ideology doesn't mean it isn't true.
 

Trup1aya

Member
i read this often, but what are the numbers?
what leaderboards?
what are those numbers for Halo 5 in comparison


i do believe people vastly overestimate player retention for those old games.
HaloChartscomHalo4StatsandCharts_zps13630e5a.png~original

gxeEokL.png


this does not look like a good and growing player retention rate

These are graphs of Halo 4s retention, which was abysmal. H2 and H3's look nothing like that.

Halo 3 was the top most played Xbox live game annually for 3 years straight. It never dropped out of the top 3 most played monthly until Reach was released.
 

Synth

Member
Every game you listed was around back then. Halo just became less competitive against those franchises. They improved while halo regressed.

People used to play halo AND those games. Now many of those people skip halo.

GTA wasn't online, and COD ate Halo's lunch the moment it hit Modern Warfare. Even when Halo was competitive with it, it was basically a PS3/360 situation compared to Halo's previous PS2-like dominion.

The other games that overshadow Halo today were largely non-factors back then or simply didn't exist. There was no Destiny, no Overwatch, no Star Wars Battlefront, and stuff like Battlefield (with it's current 64 player matches) and Rainbow Six were effectively different games entirely. All of these would have murdered Halo back then if existing in anything resembling their current forms. They'd have been the Counter Strike, to Halo's Quake/UT.

The sports games benefit from having no more (or even less) competition amongst then than they used to.
 

Chris1

Member
Every game you listed was around back then. Halo just became less competitive against those franchises. They improved while halo regressed.

People used to play halo AND those games. Now many of those people skip halo.

Halo 3 was before CoD got big
Halo 3 was before GTA 4, which while was still quite big, there is nowhere near the juggernaut it is now and there's also that at the time of release there was no real GTA on 360 plus they never had online modes.
FIFA has also grown massively over the years, don't know about Madden

It's not like the popularity of those games in 2007 is the same as they are in 2017, they're all much bigger these days
 

Akai__

Member
I don't believe it, so it must not be true. Great logic.

They don't believe it, because it's not really feasible.

Just to give you an example of how well Halo 3 did. Halo 3 sold 4.8 Million copies in the US alone, after 2 months. During the same 2 month period, Halo 5 was at 1.8 Million copies in the US. It was not until 3 months where Halo 5 sold 5 Million copies and that was worldwide. Like, do you honestly believe that Halo 5 outdid Halo 3 at that pace? Like I said, the numbers don't even include the worldwide Halo 3 sales.

Then you have a comment from 343i, where they actually say that Halo 5 beat population numbers since Halo 3, which is only including Halo Reach and Halo 4. That comment was made roughly 8 months after Halo 5 released. If it beat Halo 2's or Halo 3's numbers, they would have said so.
 

mcrommert

Banned
The MP statement seems peculiar. Halo 3 was one of the two most popular MP games on XBL until MW2. Even accounting for more people playing MP today, Halo 5 rarely broke into the top 10 most popular XBL list 6 months post launch.

EDIT: 6 months post launch window.

Perhaps there are more people playing on Xbox live than 10 years ago

Crazy I know
 

leeh

Member
They don't believe it, because it's not really feasible.

Just to give you an example of how well Halo 3 did. Halo 3 sold 4.8 Million copies in the US alone, after 2 months. During the same 2 month period, Halo 5 was at 1.8 Million copies in the US. It was not until 3 months where Halo 5 sold 5 Million copies and that was worldwide. Like, do you honestly believe that Halo 5 outdid Halo 3 at that pace? Like I said, the numbers don't even include the worldwide Halo 3 sales.

Then you have a comment from 343i, where they actually say that Halo 5 beat population numbers since Halo 3, which is only . That comment was made roughly 8 months after Halo 5 released. If it beat Halo 2's or Halo 3's numbers, they would have said so.
*Excluding digital for the 2months number.

Also, he only said about on bar, not that it beat it.
 
That's nice to her. Personally I never bought a Req pack, actually I haven't even redeem the req packs that came with my special edition; yet I'm glad that arena remained untouched by MT.
 

Kill3r7

Member
Perhaps there are more people playing on Xbox live than 10 years ago

Crazy I know

Neglecting the fact that I clearly stated that in the very post you quoted, the games that Halo was behind on the most popular list on XBL store where not hitting anywhere close to the online population of Halo 3. I don't have an axe to grind, I have put in about 150 hours on Halo 5 since release. I just find Pachter's statement to be paculiar.
 

Trup1aya

Member
GTA wasn't online, and COD ate Halo's lunch the moment it hit Modern Warfare. Even when Halo was competitive with it, it was basically a PS3/360 situation compared to Halo's previous PS2-like dominion.

The other games that overshadow Halo today were largely non-factors back then or simply didn't exist. There was no Destiny, no Overwatch, no Star Wars Battlefront, and stuff like Battlefield (with it's current 64 player matches) and Rainbow Six were effectively different games entirely. All of these would have murdered Halo back then if existing in anything resembling their current forms. They'd have been the Counter Strike, to Halo's Quake/UT.

The sports games benefit from having no more (or even less) competition amongst then than they used to.

All I see is excuses. GTA didn't have online- future installments added a feature that improved its marketplace standing. Halo did not. Again, that's just an example of the competition getting better while halo didn't.

Modern Wardare DID NOT eat Halo 3s lunch. H3 hardly even flinched. MW2 ate Reaches Lunch. Again an example of one franchise improving and the other stagnating/regressing

Battlefield, rainbow 6 also improved over time. If Halo improved at the same rate, it wouldn't have gotten murdered by anything. Also there was a battlefront.

I'm not sure why you think other franchises improving is an excuse for Halo not doing the same.

And don't give the excuse that halo just got too old. COD is only two years younger and RB6, battlefield, gta... all franchises older than halo that keep on finding new ways to keep people interested.

Destiny and Overwatch don't help your argument. If Destiny and Overwatch can find massive success in a crowded market, why can't Halo?

Halo 3 was before CoD got big
Halo 3 was before GTA 4, which while was still quite big, there is nowhere near the juggernaut it is now and there's also that at the time of release there was no real GTA on 360 plus they never had online modes.
FIFA has also grown massively over the years, don't know about Madden

It's not like the popularity of those games in 2007 is the same as they are in 2017, they're all much bigger these days

Same as above. Why did those games- mostly franchises older than halo- grow in popularity while halo declined? It's because their offerings became more compelling...

Simply blaming it all on the fact that other games got better, is to be ignorant of the fact that halo DID NOT get better during the same time frame. THATS the issue.
 

Synth

Member
All I see is excuses. GTA didn't have online- future installments added a feature that improved its marketplace standing. Halo did not. Again, that's just an example of the competition getting better while halo didn't.

Modern Wardare DID NOT eat Halo 3s lunch. MW2 ate Reaches Lunch. Again an example of one franchise improving and the other stagnating/regressing

Battlefield, rainbow 6 also improved over time. If Halo improved at the same rate, it wouldn't have gotten murdered by anything.

I'm not sure why you think other franchises improving is an excuse for Halo not doing the same.

That's right. Those are just excuses. But I don't think excuses are also inherently invalid. Improved vs regressed vs stagnant are simply things that tend to be attributed to popularity. Halo has attempted to improve, and a lot of its current playerbase likely feels it has... but you see the attempts to change as regression. You cite COD as having improved, but then the current big deal is its WWII return as many don't view the changes as improvement, which lead to so many currently playing Black Ops 2, or shelling out for the highest priced edition of Infinite Warfare in order to get the original Modern Warfare... which did each Halo's lunch, just not as much of it as MW2 which dethroned it entirely, with much of that momentum supplied by COD4. By the time MW2 hit, it's community standing had already been solidified as an alternative to Halo, and an aesthetically more appealing on for the average player at that.

Like, I'm not going to sit here and argue that if Ridge Racer had "continued to improve" it'd be hanging with Gran Turismo today, or lack of improvement caused Counter Strike to murder the arena shooter. At some point you have to actually consider that the current standard is more appealing to the average player at its very core, and that the older version may well have been very ducking lucky the released first.

Destiny and Overwatch certainly don't harm my argument either. Both have a lot of natural advantages against Halo in the current space (not least being multiplatform so everyone gets to talk amongst themselves about them). They're both also a lot more friendly to the casual player taking a significant amount of the weight of failure away from any single player. Destiny very much represent what an "improved" Halo could have been under Bungie.. . but it'd be Halo only in name at that point.
 

Akai__

Member
*Excluding digital for the 2months number.

Also, he only said about on bar, not that it beat it.

Even if you include the digital sales, that number for Halo 5 is irrelevant in it's first 2 months. What's relevant is that Halo 5 broke the 5 million mark worldwide after 3 months. Something that Halo 3 nearly achieved in the US alone in 2 months.

I also know that Pachter sayed about on par, but what does on par mean? +/- 1 million? +/- 100k? It's a pretty vague statement to begin with, so that's why people think it's not really believable.

---

To get back on topic. I think it's still great that they did this much money with this model. I'm really not a fan of splitting a user base with paid Map DLC anyways. Sure, I'll still gladly pay for really good DLC, but others may not and that's the issue.

I have no doubt that a slightly improved model will achieve the same for Halo 6. I just hope that other parts of the game are not neglected, because of it and that we can get a Hao game with the same amount of features (and maybe even more) with the next game.
 
*Excluding digital for the 2months number.

Also, he only said about on bar, not that it beat it.

Without any official data, it's starting to become a silly argument in either case. "Pachter would know" really isn't a strong argument considering most of us already take anything he says with a massive grain of salt.

Even if you include the digital sales, that number for Halo 5 is irrelevant in it's first 2 months. What's relevant is that Halo 5 broke the 5 million mark worldwide after 3 months. Something that Halo 3 nearly achieved in the US alone in 2 months.

I also know that Pachter sayed about on par, but what does on par mean? +/- 1 million? +/- 100k? It's a pretty vague statement to begin with, so that's why people think it's not really believable.

---

To get back on topic. I think it's still great that they did this much money with this model. I'm really not a fan of splitting a user base with paid Map DLC anyways. Sure, I'll still gladly pay for really good DLC, but others may not and that's the issue.

I have no doubt that a slightly improved model will achieve the same for Halo 6. I just hope that other parts of the game are not neglected, because of it and that we can get a Hao game with the same amount of features (and maybe even more) with the next game.

Halo is my top franchise, but if they launch halo 6 and it's missing BTB at launch or if it's nothing but forge maps again, I'm moving on for good.

Thats why it made money. A lot of the 'dlc' was half assed forge stuff or revamps of current maps. If half assed maps is the way forward, count me out.

Agreed. I think it's awesome that the game has long term support, but the quality just isn't there and this news doesn't make me feel better about the quality of the maps. I don't hate forge maps, many are outstanding, but I don't want to play on nothing but forge in my favorite game mode.
 

Spasm

Member
Kinda surprised at the amount of money people have spent in this thread. I've unlocked everything from Gold and Silver packs without spending a dime... Well, except on the voice pack. All hail Yabda the Merciless!

But yeah, it took for-god-damned-ever.

Now I've got 400k RP in the bank, waiting for the next exclusive pack.

Edit:
Halo is my top franchise, but if they launch halo 6 and it's missing BTB at launch or if it's nothing but forge maps again, I'm moving on for good.
You and me both. The BTB neglect is heart-breaking.
 
*Excluding digital for the 2months number.

Also, he only said about on bar, not that it beat it.

Nah, as soon as Halo 2/3 enters the conversation, that comparison became unfeasible even if looking at it as "on par."

It's far more likely for Halo 5 to have sold in 6 months in NA what Halo 2/3/4 did in a month. And even that seems like a stretch.
 

Trup1aya

Member
That's right. Those are just excuses. But I don't think excuses are also inherently invalid. Improved vs regressed vs stagnant are simply things that tend to be attributed to popularity. Halo has attempted to improve, and a lot of its current playerbase likely feels it has... but you see the attempts to change as regression. You cite COD as having improved, but then the current big deal is its WWII return as many don't view the changes as improvement, which lead to so many currently playing Black Ops 2, or shelling out for the highest priced edition of Infinite Warfare in order to get the original Modern Warfare... which did each Halo's lunch, just not as much of it as MW2 which dethroned it entirely, with much of that momentum supplied by COD4. By the time MW2 hit, it's community standing had already been solidified as an alternative to Halo, and an aesthetically more appealing on for the average player at that.

Like, I'm not going to sit here and argue that if Ridge Racer had "continued to improve" it'd be hanging with Gran Turismo today, or lack of improvement caused Counter Strike to murder the arena shooter. At some point you have to actually consider that the current standard is more appealing to the average player at its very core, and that the older version may well have been very ducking lucky the released first.

so we are to assume that halo only grew massive do to luck and there is NOTHING the developer could have done to make Halo maintain its desirability in comparison to other franchises on the market?

That's outlandish.

How can you argue that MW ate Halo 3s lunch when H3 had been on the market for 2 years and barely even moved when MW launched?

In terms of 'improvement' I'm talking about the developers ability to design a game that the market finds compelling. MW compelled more purchases than MW2, so forth and so on. The market found IW to be much less compelling that Blops3. And this is not simply a function of setting or mechanics, but the entire package in relation to other offerings on the market.

Halo Reach was less compelling to Halo fans than H3. It also failed to compel new fans at a rate to offset new interest in franchises like COD and Battlefield. (Mind you BF also saw doubled its installed base during Reaches timeframe)

I doubt the failure to compel is solely a result of changes to mechanics. But obviously it didn't help Halo. It also didn't help that the market found innovations from other franchises to be more exciting than Halos innovations. But that's not an excuse for the halo developer's failure to implement features that would lead to growth in the market. They got outplayed.

edit: I fully reject the notion that the core Halo formula was doomed to short term popularity, while the BF and COD formulas were inherently future proof. Those games just did a better job at anticipating what gamers would want from them next.
 
This isn't pachters actual written guidance to his paid customers so I think he's being accurate with some statements and then exaggerating with some others.
 
So we're just gonna revise history now and pretend that Halo 3 and Cod4 weren't jousting back and forth every week for the top spot on xbl's most played list? Halo 3 was one of the most played games for 3 damn years. Halo 5 having good numbers is cool and all, but lets not fudge history.
 
These are graphs of Halo 4s retention, which was abysmal. H2 and H3's look nothing like that.

Halo 3 was the top most played Xbox live game annually for 3 years straight. It never dropped out of the top 3 most played monthly until Reach was released.

you have some charts or numbers for for H3 or H2?
 
Halo is my top franchise, but if they launch halo 6 and it's missing BTB at launch or if it's nothing but forge maps again, I'm moving on for good.

Yeah, the BTB neglect really soured me. It came late and they couldn't even release one dev map for it. Furthermore, when they released some more maps months later. They had frame rate issues that took them months to fix. Also BR starts is just shit, it should be pistol starts. However, 343i doesn't even want to test it. When the community map makers made the maps they said they were designed for pistol starts. However, 343i is like fuck that we know better than the community, BR starts!

343i didn't give a shit about BTB in H5. I mean why should they? They are making money from WZ.
 

highrider

Banned
It got me interested in multiplayer again. I never buy req packs and don't play that much but I've unlocked a ton of stuff just through playing. I wouldn't care if it wasn't a compelling game experience, but they really nailed the multiplayer. Halo had gone from a day one purchase for me to a wait for sale game. I'm on board day 1 for Halo 6. If they can simplify the campaign story and improve encounter design it will be an all around win for me.
 

Akai__

Member
Halo is my top franchise, but if they launch halo 6 and it's missing BTB at launch or if it's nothing but forge maps again, I'm moving on for good.

They have the foundations. If they don't use them, I don't know what to tell you. :/

Now I've got 400k RP in the bank, waiting for the next exclusive pack.

It's been silent for a while now. Can't imagine that they still have content to release. By now, you'd expect that like 99% of the team is working on Halo 6.

There are still the Brute Weapon files that have been found long ago, but I somehow doubt those will even come out now.
 

gweemz

Member
Kinda surprised at the amount of money people have spent in this thread. I've unlocked everything from Gold and Silver packs without spending a dime... Well, except on the voice pack. All hail Yabda the Merciless!

But yeah, it took for-god-damned-ever.

Now I've got 400k RP in the bank, waiting for the next exclusive pack.

Edit:

You and me both. The BTB neglect is heart-breaking.

Same here. Never spent a dime on a req pack, and have unlocked everything. Also about btb, played a game on the sandtrap remake where there were no vehicles. Really hoping that was a glitch, especially since we can't have any vehicles in arena. The btb maps are okay, but I don't understand why they couldn't port some old maps over. Viking looks like trash compared to the older versions of the map, mostly because of the "water" that looks like glass in the forge level.
 

Trup1aya

Member
you have some charts or numbers for for H3 or H2?

I know that Halos was the number 1 title on Xbox live annually for 3 years straight... even after MW launched. This is from lists major Nelson published.

I also know Halo 3 didn't spend a single month outside of the top 3 for the 39 months following its launch. Despite GTA4, COD2-MW, BF, and several other titles being massively popular. Also published by major Nelson.
 
I have trouble believing this, but not because "halo is dad", but because Halo 5 throws req packs at you with such reckless abandon that I have trouble believing people en masse actually buy them.
 

Akai__

Member

Synth

Member
so we are to assume that halo only grew massive do to luck and there is NOTHING the developer could have done to make Halo maintain its desirability in comparison to other franchises on the market?

That's outlandish.

How can you argue that MW ate Halo 3s lunch when H3 had been on the market for 2 years and barely even moved when MW launched?

No, I'm not saying Halo was popular only because of luck. It was popular on its own merits, and was a fuckton better than its competition initially... but Halo couldn't improve at the rate the other games did. If Halo was at a 9/10 in terms of potential, then games like Battlefield and COD were about 6/10.. and when they're all 9/10, Halo isn't going to be the average player's first choice. COD4 shot to the number 2 spot immediately, and whilst Halo 3 being older had already shed a lot of its earlier audience. These players would be making up COD4's numbers, and they became MW2 players.

Of course, I'm not suggesting there was nothing Halo could have done to remain popular... like I said, it very could be Destiny today, just named Halo... that probably would have worked. What I'm saying though, is how divorced from the original template do you think makes sense to go in this pursuit? 343i catches enough shit for the more minor changes they already made. If Halo 2 was Ghost Recon Island Thunder... is a Ghost Recon Wildlands the sort of change you'd want by Halo 5?

Trends are trends for a reason... it's because to most people the trend IS the improvement. ADS is an improvement, loadouts are an improvement, sprint is an improvement, killstreaks are an improvement, objectives are an improvement, RPG systems are an improvement, etc. Call of Duty, Battlefield and Destiny all represent what the average person considers to be an improvement to Halo... any Halo.

In terms of 'improvement' I'm talking about the developers ability to design a game that the market finds compelling. MW compelled more purchases than MW2, so forth and so on. The market found IW to be much less compelling that Blops3. And this is not simply a function of setting or mechanics, but the entire package in relation to other offerings on the market.

Halo Reach was less compelling to Halo fans than H3. It also failed to compel new fans at a rate to offset new interest in franchises like COD and Battlefield. (Mind you BF also saw doubled its installed base during Reaches timeframe)

But look at those "more compelling CODs"... Black Ops 2 becomes backwards compatible and it becomes the second most played game on XBL again. Infinite Warfare bundles the original Modern Warfare (which you say couldn't touch Halo) and it storms the XBL chart also... but no ability to play any older Halo games does that in any form. In MCC Halo 4 consistently murders the older games for votes. The people that made Halo 2 and 3 so big simply don't play Halo anymore at all.. they're just gone. For many of them Halo was their game simply because the other games didn't exist in their modern form yet.

edit: I fully reject the notion that the core Halo formula was doomed to short term popularity, while the BF and COD formulas were inherently future proof. Those games just did a better job at anticipating what gamers would want from them next.

I'm not actually claiming that either Battlefield or CODs formulas are future-proof... they're just current. Games could trend away from the mechanics of either at any point, and they could become something completely different, or fall out of favour... COD has already done that in the past with Modern Warfare, and then in reaction to Titanfall this generation. An honest answer to what gamers would have wanted from Halo next, is quite likely something that isn't Halo at all.
 
In an alternate world where microsoft were leading sony in a 2:1 ratio of console sales, im curious if Halo 5 truly would have beaten all the other Halo sales records.
 

Hardvlade

Member
No, not really. Overwatch has a better system. OW allows players to purchase specific items when you save enough. H5 is all random.

That's debatable, Overwatch gives you dupes and you get very little gold for them + you have to play quite a bit to level up and get one box.

Halo 5 guaranteed permanent unlocks (no dupes on permanent unlocks) and when you reached the limit of what could be unlocked in that tier, you'd basically get your points back to use on the next tier. Plus some of the cards sold at a decent price, helping you towards your next pack a lot quicker than OW did.
 
So what you're saying is... They could make the microtransactions half the price? I wish someone would start a trend of actual micro microtransactions
 

Andodalf

Banned
So what you're saying is... They could make the microtransactions half the price? I wish someone would start a trend of actual micro microtransactions

The MTs are pretty reasonable. Decent prices for blind packs, but you can earn the highest tier blind pack in an hour of playing on a good day. Special packs exist for higher prices, which give special things, like announcers, or HCS team skins, which have some of the money go to the teams. All MTs also support the prize pools for the regular HCS season now. Pretty good compared to a mobile game, or 2k, Fut, or MUT.
 

RoKKeR

Member
Unsurprising. Halo 5 probably generated a significant amount of revenue, even with much lower unit sales than past entries. It serves as a great incentive for them to continue free support of the game.

Expecting it to continue in Halo 6... hopefully they manage to keep it reasonable and not too intrusive. .
 
I bought a couple fun aesthetic packs. As a Halo fan since CE, I'm fully onboard with this model. Free DLC maps and updates, paid aesthetic stuff.

And Req packs weren't so bad. I kinda liked 'em.

Same. If they give me a reason to start complaining I will, but REQ packs came fast and hard without spending any money whatsoever so I never felt pressured at all to grab them. I did so of my own volition for cosmetics and such.
 

Trup1aya

Member
No, I'm not saying Halo was popular only because of luck. It was popular on its own merits, and was a fuckton better than its competition initially... but Halo couldn't improve at the rate the other games did. If Halo was at a 9/10 in terms of potential, then games like Battlefield and COD were about 6/10.. and when they're all 9/10, Halo isn't going to be the average player's first choice. COD4 shot to the number 2 spot immediately, and whilst Halo 3 being older had already shed a lot of its earlier audience. These players would be making up COD4's numbers, and they became MW2 players.

Of course, I'm not suggesting there was nothing Halo could have done to remain popular... like I said, it very could be Destiny today, just named Halo... that probably would have worked. What I'm saying though, is how divorced from the original template do you think makes sense to go in this pursuit? 343i catches enough shit for the more minor changes they already made. If Halo 2 was Ghost Recon Island Thunder... is a Ghost Recon Wildlands the sort of change you'd want by Halo 5?

Trends are trends for a reason... it's because to most people the trend IS the improvement. ADS is an improvement, loadouts are an improvement, sprint is an improvement, killstreaks are an improvement, objectives are an improvement, RPG systems are an improvement, etc. Call of Duty, Battlefield and Destiny all represent what the average person considers to be an improvement to Halo... any Halo.

But look at those "more compelling CODs"... Black Ops 2 becomes backwards compatible and it becomes the second most played game on XBL again. Infinite Warfare bundles the original Modern Warfare (which you say couldn't touch Halo) and it storms the XBL chart also... but no ability to play any older Halo games does that in any form. In MCC Halo 4 consistently murders the older games for votes. The people that made Halo 2 and 3 so big simply don't play Halo anymore at all.. they're just gone. For many of them Halo was their game simply because the other games didn't exist in their modern form yet.

I'm not actually claiming that either Battlefield or CODs formulas are future-proof... they're just current. Games could trend away from the mechanics of either at any point, and they could become something completely different, or fall out of favour... COD has already done that in the past with Modern Warfare, and then in reaction to Titanfall this generation. An honest answer to what gamers would have wanted from Halo next, is quite likely something that isn't Halo at all.

I'm sorry, but this is utter nonsense. The idea that halo had reached its potential is just a defeatist argument. There are always ways to improve.

Ofcourse Halo could have done things to maintain its popularity- but the changes made for Reach and Halo 4 were not it.

Sure, ADS, loadouts and sprint are 'modern'- but that's because games with other mechanics failed to deliver desirable systems around their own mechanics- not because their own mechanics are inferior or out of style. You are making the mistake of assuming correlation equals causation.

COD 2 had sprint and ADS and Loadouts. The 'improvements' between then and Blops2 were in the overall package, not the mechanics themselves.

Halo's mechanics never fell out of style. H3 was the most popular FPS on the planet. It was just as Modern as COD. Then that style was completely abandoned before it had a chance to be unpopular.

It's absolutely ridiculous to suggest that halo couldn't include compelling innovations without straying from its core formula. H2s matchmaking was such an innovation. Forge was such an innovation. Firefight was such an innovation.

From Reach onward, halo developers stopped innovating and started following. Meanwhile halo's competitors made their existing formulas more palletable.

In 2010-2012 A destiny-styled co-op mode to accompany the standard Halo campaign and pvp suite would have been a massive success w/o requiring the dev to sacrifice the core gameplay. It would have been an innovation. Instead they released games that simple changed to less desirable formulas for Halo.

Edit: it takes some serious leaps of logic to conclude that halo players prefer H4 thanks to MCC. First of all, in 2012, 343 had to change H4s MP to more resemble H3 in order to stop the bleeding. secondly many of the players who would prefer a classic formula, probably quit the game, and many don't even own xboxes do to Halos regression. It should be no surprise that many people who still play Halo are the ones who don't mind the changes- But these people are comparatively few in number. Lastly, H3 gets plenty of votes in mcc (which is a shame because I prefer h2).
 
No, I'm not saying Halo was popular only because of luck. It was popular on its own merits, and was a fuckton better than its competition initially... but Halo couldn't improve at the rate the other games did. If Halo was at a 9/10 in terms of potential, then games like Battlefield and COD were about 6/10.. and when they're all 9/10, Halo isn't going to be the average player's first choice. COD4 shot to the number 2 spot immediately, and whilst Halo 3 being older had already shed a lot of its earlier audience. These players would be making up COD4's numbers, and they became MW2 players.

Of course, I'm not suggesting there was nothing Halo could have done to remain popular... like I said, it very could be Destiny today, just named Halo... that probably would have worked. What I'm saying though, is how divorced from the original template do you think makes sense to go in this pursuit? 343i catches enough shit for the more minor changes they already made. If Halo 2 was Ghost Recon Island Thunder... is a Ghost Recon Wildlands the sort of change you'd want by Halo 5?

Trends are trends for a reason... it's because to most people the trend IS the improvement. ADS is an improvement, loadouts are an improvement, sprint is an improvement, killstreaks are an improvement, objectives are an improvement, RPG systems are an improvement, etc. Call of Duty, Battlefield and Destiny all represent what the average person considers to be an improvement to Halo... any Halo.



But look at those "more compelling CODs"... Black Ops 2 becomes backwards compatible and it becomes the second most played game on XBL again. Infinite Warfare bundles the original Modern Warfare (which you say couldn't touch Halo) and it storms the XBL chart also... but no ability to play any older Halo games does that in any form. In MCC Halo 4 consistently murders the older games for votes. The people that made Halo 2 and 3 so big simply don't play Halo anymore at all.. they're just gone. For many of them Halo was their game simply because the other games didn't exist in their modern form yet.



I'm not actually claiming that either Battlefield or CODs formulas are future-proof... they're just current. Games could trend away from the mechanics of either at any point, and they could become something completely different, or fall out of favour... COD has already done that in the past with Modern Warfare, and then in reaction to Titanfall this generation. An honest answer to what gamers would have wanted from Halo next, is quite likely something that isn't Halo at all.

Im sorry, but your argument is terrible. Overwatch doesn't have half of the mechanics you listed and it's highly successful. A good game is a good game. Some games with rpg elements are successful, many aren't. This doesn't indicate any sort of trend other than people like well made products.

If anything, I stopped playing halo initially because of those changes. I've only come back since halo 5 is still the closest thing out there to the older games. I still play MCC too. I can never but help to think about how much the additions to movement and aiming have made it a lesser game though.

Also, halo 4 destroys others for votes?! My family has a joke where we just call MCC halo 3 because that's all we've seen 90 percent of the time.
 
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