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[KingJ2002]

although it may come off as defensive... it's not surprising to slam a game for the shock value.

think of how many times games have unanimously great scores from top outlets only to have a small few with "this game is overrated" and the review comes off as a opinion piece rather than reviewing the facts of the title?

I've thought about this in the past... wouldn't surprise me if this was the case. Hell.. some outlets admitted to covering destiny more than other titles because it gave them more clicks.

 

[Purest 78]

He was definitely talking about ReCore and not FH3 only. Check the review thread, theres a 3 and 4s http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1277316 .

ReCore did so well that its off the charts.

He absolutely was talking about Recore then he mentioned Forza.

 

[Chobel]

Interesting exchange between Phil and Rami Ismail related to this topic on twitter if anyone wants to take the time and chop it into pics:

https://twitter.com/tha_rami/status/784140556838526976



The person with the Yoshida response is kind of funny as well if you scroll down.

He knows he fucked up.

 

[Crayon]

He knows he fucked up.

Forgiven.

 

[FinaruDensetsu]

He knows he fucked up.

At least we can finally stop arguing back and forth about if it was recore or FH3 now.

Respect for manning up to it and acknowledging that it was a moment of weakness. He's human like the rest of us!

 

[Coxy100]

At least we can finally stop arguing back and forth about if it was recore or FH3 now.

Respect for manning up to it and acknowledging that it was a moment of weakness. He's human like the rest of us!

Yep, we all make mistakes.

 

[VLiberty]

Came here just to joke about the fact that it's something obvious and then I see there's a shitstorm against Phil.

what?

 

[FrostuTheNinja]

Sucks to see him backpedal on something he was completely spot on about. There have always been observable instances where the gaming press used sensationalist/sordid means to get more eyes on their shit. Of course, there are plenty of people (arguably the majority) who haven't found the need to practice such underhanded and predatory tactics to earn their keep.

It's also quite interesting to see what's either blind faith, or straight up denial on the subject.

 

[FinaruDensetsu]

Came here just to joke about the fact that it's something obvious and then I see there's a shitstorm against Phil.

what?

It's not obvious at all that Recore's 3 and 4 out of 10 reviews were given for clicks. In fact they most likely were genuine opinions because no stories about Recore either positive or negative were really going to get a significant number of clicks either way.

Clickbaiting happens but they don't happen in articles about games that weren't on people's radar to begin with. I mean unless the writer is dumb and doesn't get the concept of clickbaiting.

Sucks to see him backpedal on something he was completely spot on about. There have always been observable instances where the gaming press used sensationalist/sordid means to get more eyes on their shit. Of course, there are plenty of people (arguably the majority) who haven't found the need to practice such underhanded and predatory tactics to earn their keep.

It's also quite interesting to see what's either blind faith, or straight up denial on the subject.

He's apologizing because his statement wasn't a broad, general statement about low scores for widely acclaimed games. They were specifically about his exclusives and were self serving. One of the exclusives he was taking about had many scores given that were in the range he accused of being clickbaity which should signify that there were real issues and not because of some imagined persecution due to baiting for clicks.

 

[leeh]

He shouldn't of said this no matter what reviews came out IMO, although, I can understand how stressful it can be and how one can slip up. This is a contreversal personal opinion being made as a department head, it's just unprofessional.

Forgiven, but don't make the same mistakes.

 

[SDMG]

Didn't Yoshida do the same thing by calling out Polygon for giving The Last Of Us a 7/10?

 

[KingdomHeartsFan]

I was really hoping for this game to do good, but it was not meant to be.

 

[FinaruDensetsu]

Then Yoshida do the same thing by calling out Polygon for giving The Last Of Us a 7/10?

You mean when Phil Kollar, Yoshida's friend, tweeted him poking fun at him and then Yoshida joked back and said he didn't know who he was? Even though Yoshida and Kollar talked on twitter all the time?

If you're referring to that, then yeah it happened.

 

[chromatic9]

although it may come off as defensive... it's not surprising to slam a game for the shock value.

It's also not surprising to not like a game that most others like, even if that game is well made costing 50 million. There's this notion going around that reviews are supposed to be more personal but people can't handle it when a big title gets lower than a 7, like somehow if its AAA it's automatically 7 because of budget or it contains a high standard of functionality. A bad game is a bad game no matter how its made, how many people made it, or the budget. If a team wants to put 5 years of blood sweat and tears into a mediocre game, it's a mediocre game and shouldn't be given a leg up. I've even seen some people who work at gaming sites show dismay at low scores and cite how long and how much money was put into it should be worth something.

I can totally see Fh3 not being someone's cup of tea, open world, little challenges here and there, no structure or the vibe of the game with festivals feels silly or contrived. Quantum Break with its put the controller down watch this graveyard shift early 2000s style show for 20 mins at a time. Some may like it and feel it was well produced or like a new twist in gaming by setting the controller down and have it switch off while they watch this. Also Alan Wake Quantum Break had very similar sales at launch, they're just not that compelling in story or design, you just have to admit that. I don't care how long they spent or how nice the volumetric lighting is and it's AAA, it's an average to poor title in some peoples books and does things wrong in their opinion.

Phil is "bummed" about QB scores as well but sorry, it's not up there its contemporaries in some peoples opinion

Just to add, the game Inside is an Xbox gamers game of the year and to another Xbox gamer its a load of crap. It's an opinion, deal with it.

 

[Wiseblade]

Regardless of the game or the context, it's not something Phil Spencer should be saying. It makes the Xbox brand look petty and vulnerable. At worst, it gives legitimacy to the reviews he talks about by suggesting that they're telling you what big corporate doesn't approve of them.

 

[More_Badass]

although it may come off as defensive... it's not surprising to slam a game for the shock value.

think of how many times games have unanimously great scores from top outlets only to have a small few with "this game is overrated" and the review comes off as a opinion piece rather than reviewing the facts of the title

Every review is an opinion piece, and what aspects of a game constitute the "facts of a title"? Are they the same for every game, or does it depend on genre?

 

[benny_a]

I think the acknowledgement by Phil that this was a moment of weakness should be edited into the OP.

Shows that he is human and sometimes says things because he may have been frustrated at that moment which is understandable and we don't need another 200 posts positing that he clearly never meant to say what he said.

 

[Kai Ozu]

I'm with Phil, games media is trash.

 

[oti]

You mean when Phil Kollar, Yoshida's friend, tweeted him poking fun at him and then Yoshida joked back and said he didn't know who he was? Even though Yoshida and Kollar talked on twitter all the time?

If you're referring to that, then yeah it happened.

This public friendship between Yoshida and some press people is also bothersome to me. I'm not saying they give Sony games better scores or dumb gamergate nonsense like that but it doesn't feel right. Respecting each other is one thing, this goes a bit too far for my liking.

 

[LordRaptor]

The implication that anything different from consensus opinion is 'wrong' or of deliberate malicious intent to promote an agenda is to want games even more homogeneous and targetted at the lowest common denominator than they already are, and for reviews to no longer have any subjectivity to them, but solely to measure how many degrees from the normative value any given title is.

I'm sure some people would be thrilled to see that future, where things like controls are no longer measured in responsiveness or appropriateness to the title itself, but against a baseline "how different from COD?" standard, but I'm not one of those people.

 

[Bits N Pieces]

Over the last few years I have definitely seen an increase in reviews that I would say are created for clicks, exposure and notoriety and I dont think theres anything wrong with pointing that out.

Its good to point a mirror at this industry at times.

 

[oti]

Over the last few years I have definitely seen an increase in reviews that I would say are created for clicks, exposure and notoriety and I dont think theres anything wrong with pointing that out.

Its good to point a mirror at this industry at times.

That is a totally valid point to make and a valuable discussion to have. But not for Phil Spencer. He should be above this. Every exec should. And I'm sure he usually is, maybe those particular scores just got to him. He already admitted it was a mistake.

 

[Chobel]

I'm with Phil, games media is trash.

Over the last few years I have definitely seen an increase in reviews that I would say are created for clicks, exposure and notoriety and I dont think theres anything wrong with pointing that out.

Its good to point a mirror at this industry at times.

I can't believe we still hearing defenses about this. The man himself admitted he was wrong and apologized. But no, we have to shit in the media and defend him no matter what.

 

[Bits N Pieces]

I can't believe we still hearing defenses about this. The man himself admitted he was wrong and apologized. But no, we have to shit in the media and defend him no matter what.

lol

Lets all agree with Chobel and anyone that doesn't is wrong and some sort of defence force... yeesh!

If the media is shitty, then ill shit on it. Same goes with any profession, if they deal in shit then they can take the shit.

Why do you give a fuck?

 

[LordRaptor]

If the media is shitty, then ill shit on it. Same goes with any profession, if they deal in shit then they can take the shit.

You don't see any inherent conflict of interest with a man whose job is selling a product implying anyone overly critical of that product is automatically being dishonest?

 

[Bits N Pieces]

You don't see any inherent conflict of interest with a man whose job is selling a product implying anyone overly critical of that product is automatically being dishonest?

I honestly don't think their is anything wrong with questioning someone's intentions, no.

 

[aeolist]

if a review is shitty criticize it for being badly written or inaccurate or whatever, assuming the writer's being disingenuous does no one any good and just encourages the kind of insanity we see every time a AAA game gets any score lower than a 9

 

[Chobel]

lol

Lets all agree with Chobel and anyone that doesn't is wrong and some sort of defence force... yeesh!

If the media is shitty, then ill shit on it. Same goes with any profession, if they deal in shit then they can take the shit.

Why do you give a fuck?

You're defending what Phil Spencer said, even though he himself admitted it was wrong.

 

[Atomski]

I've heard this before.. in every Sony exclusive thread. Specially Uncharted.

 

[oti]

I've heard this before.. in every Sony exclusive thread. Specially Uncharted.

Uncharted threads are better than 90% of all video games

Spoiler

including Uncharted 1 & 3

.

 

[Chobel]

I honestly don't think their is anything wrong with questioning someone's intentions, no.

As long you bring real evidence, sure. But questioning someone's intentions because you don't agree them? That's bullshit.

 

[leeh]

You're defending what Phil Spencer said, even though he himself admitted it was wrong.

To be pedantic, he said saying it was wrong, not what he actually said was wrong.

The man is entitled to his opinion, it's just unprofessional to say it.

 

[Chobel]

To be pedantic, he said saying it was wrong, not what he actually said was wrong.

The man is entitled to his opinion, it's just unprofessional to say it.

No, he later added "A mantra of mine is "Assume good intent", this isn't that."

 

[TheOfficeMut]

No, he later added "A mantra of mine is "Assume good intent", this isn't that."

This thread is now about Trump. All of his supporters assume good intent and I assume good intent when it comes to their actions.

Trump loves Mexican rapists. Wait, so then Phil assumes good intent with Trump as well?

We've finally combined both gaming and off-topic. Phil was the connector.

 

[jayu26]

Momentary lapse. He learned from it. We all grew up a little. It's all good.

 

[Chobel]

This thread is now about Trump. All of his supporters assume good intent and I assume good intent when it comes to their actions.

Trump loves Mexican rapists. Wait, so then Phil assumes good intent with Trump as well?

We've finally combined both gaming and off-topic. Phil was the connector.

 

[flkraven]

Class act Phil admitting his mistakes. The guy is as flawless as a person could be. Instead of closing the thread, can we all just sit back and bask in his glow?

 

[duckroll]

I like how Phil himself has owned up to it and acknowledged that it was poor form for him to say something like that, while fanboys and white knights continue to defend his right to slam the media and to "tell it as it is". Truly funny. I bet MS is glad their fans aren't the ones doing Phil's job.

 

[LordRaptor]

We all grew up a little.

I'm not sure the people who think he was talking about FH3, and is 100% correct that anyone giving FH3 less than 7/10 is clickbait agenda learnt a thing.

 

[etta]

He knows he fucked up.

Hmmm, interesting.

 

[Primethius]

To be pedantic, he said saying it was wrong, not what he actually said was wrong.

The man is entitled to his opinion, it's just unprofessional to say it.

I agree.

And I think most clickbait reviews one finds are from smaller, lesser known sources. But that's a very specific case by case thing that doesn't happen with all games (not at all).

I'm glad Phil apologized. Generalizing the issue as a broad defense of Recore was just not a good idea.

 

[krang]

I can't believe we still hearing defenses about this. The man himself admitted he was wrong and apologized. But no, we have to shit in the media and defend him no matter what.

Are you outright saying that no games media outlets ever adjust their reviews for the sake of clicks?

He's wrong to point it at ReCore reviews, but people are now discussing this in the broader sense, and in that context is that statement incorrect? You're damned right it's not.

 

[Xbudz]

This thread and any articles about it are also clickbait. Phil specifically mentioned how somebody gave Forza Horizon 3 a 4 out of 10... Which was his main point when talking about clickbait reviews.

 

[Chobel]

Are you outright saying that no games media outlets ever adjust their reviews for the sake of clicks?

He's wrong to point it at ReCore reviews, but people are now discussing this in the broader sense, and in that context is that statement incorrect? You're damned right it's not.

What? No. This thread isn't about the existence of clickbait reviews, it's about Phil Spencer accusing low score reviews of being clickbait.

This thread and any articles about it are also clickbait. Phil specifically mentioned how somebody gave Forza Horizon 3 a 4 out of 10... Which was his main point when talking about clickbait reviews.

Not this again. No, it's wasn't about just FH3, it was about the low scores that his games are getting.

 

[pastrami]

This thread and any articles about it are also clickbait. Phil specifically mentioned how somebody gave Forza Horizon 3 a 4 out of 10... Which was his main point when talking about clickbait reviews.

No. He didn't make that statement in a vacuum. You are treating the two statements as if they are unrelated (Recore scores and FH3 score), but there is a reason he brings up the Forza Horizon 3 score.

Would it have been weird if Spencer mentioned he liked apple pie at that moment in the interview? Why would a completely unrelated statement about FH3 be any different? Because it's not unrelated and has context.

 

[aeolist]

Are you outright saying that no games media outlets ever adjust their reviews for the sake of clicks?

that is not and has not ever been the point.

the point is that reviews are opinionated by nature and assuming that someone is lying about their opinion for nefarious reasons 1) is a shitty thing to do generally and 2) encourages all kinds of bad behavior that's already widely prevalent in this community.

if someone nitpicks a game that basically everyone agrees is really good, maybe they're just picky and it's not their kind of game. that review will be useful to someone or it won't but it doesn't hurt anyone.

 

[Croatoan]

IMO the only "reviews" that have worth are those from consumers. The idea that people are payed for opinions blows my mind. It doesn't help that "reviews" are tied so close with "marketing" these days, and there is zero transparency.

I actually assume that some bad reviews come from A)not receiving a free review copy, or B)not getting money under the table for the review. On the other side, some good reviews come from A) being a fanboy, and B) perks (money, swag, trips, etc.).

I never make purchase decisions based on "professional reviews". I have zero respect for the entire game journalism industry so I put no faith in their content. Instead, I look at consumer reviews and try and weed out the shills and the trolls.

5-8 of 10 reviews usually give you the most honest view of a product though some lower and higher numbers can be useful.

 

[black070]

It's always funny to me when people on Twitter @ 'famous' people with a criticism, and immediately change their tune when they actually get a response - I know this isn't the best example of that, but it does come close.

As for the conversation in question, good on him to apologise, but a big lol at those who spent pages trying to justify it.

 

[Schopenhauerian]

Yeah, these days, only AAA games can reach top 80.

It's literally impossible otherwise.
Has been for ages!
It's all about the graphics!

...I could have linked to Ori and the Blind Forest, to Stardew Valley, Steins;Gate, The Witness, Undertale, Hex, Odin Sphere...

None of those are 3D platformers. Perhaps that's something worth considering, in this context:

...While it's a fine game, it not nearly as satisfying to run around and jump and see where things take you. You're likely to approach a bunch of bushes or jaggy cliff and just brush up against an invisible wall. And Ratchet and Clank isn't so much a platformer as an action game with some platforming elements...

...I think the problem is that they are incredibly difficult games to make. The hit detection and collision detection have to be perfect. The controls need to be precise and intuitive. The camera has to be fully controllable and not annoying. The world has to be interactive and interesting. And the gameplay mechanics have to complement the level design to create fluidity while at the same time being challenging. I honestly just dont think many devs are talented enough to pull this off.

They're much harder to make than 2D platforms. The technical challenges alone are far more complex. Writing a 2D movement and collision system isn't that difficult, but taking it to 3D adds so much more complexity in the math...

Consider:

I reached the end with all the cores I needed. I don't know, maybe I just "got" the game, but I went out there and explored the world, and it's been some of the best gaming moments I've had in recent years. This game is just a pure joy to play, it has its problems with bugs and load times, but outside of that, I had an absolute blast. The end game was insane, and I really hope we get a sequel. The reaction [ReCore] has gotten from a lot of reviewers pisses me off. This game is just so good, and deserves better.

...If you love platform games that require some good skill, Recore has a lot to offer.

[0min59sec]...The environments here are largely beautiful with accomplished lighting and some very well done surface shaders and effects work. In fact the visual aspect is what really stood out for me when I first picked out this particular title. For one this is a game that's using [the Unity engine], and most Unity titles out there aren't that impressive. But not ReCore: combined with a solid soundtrack and decent voice acting, the game doesn't take long to really get you immersed in the experience... [7min04sec] ...although performance really could be better, it's not a complete dealbreaker, and combat still comes across as pretty exciting, just not as polished as it perhaps could be... [8min40sec] ...Overall, I really enjoyed ReCore, the Metroid-style gameplay and the beautiful aesthetics with the visuals, something I simply didn't expect from a Unity engine game. ReCore definitely looks like a big-budget AAA title. It's not a perfect game by any means, and the performance could be improved on Xbox One, but overall it's a decent-looking title that has several captivating elements to it... [YouTube - Digital Foundry Analysis]

There's another possible factor, which hasn't yet been mentioned:

For the record, I was getting worked up because this game is also being hated on just because Inafune's name is attached to it. And he's the Devil, of course. Recore is dope and doesn't deserve the "Inafune Hate Squad". [YouTube - Brad Talk: Development Troubles]

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

I get Phil. I also sometimes don't get bad reviews of games I like and when I read them and they don't make (in my opinion) valid points its easy to think that they just want to trash the game because they have an agenda or they do it for the clicks.

But thats an emotional response. Differing opinions exist and I don't have to like them but I should be able to acknowlege them and not come up with conspiracy theories about why this person might have this opinion.

I'm sure Phil knows that, too.

I hope people don't blow this out of proportion.