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[visiblemode]

He's right, but not to great effect with Recore or other middle-of-the-road games. It tends to stir up controversy with critical juggernauts. You have those reviewers that give a 90+ Metacritic game a 2/10, for clicks. That definitely happens.

 

[Chobel]

Jesus guys! All these "he's right" and "he's telling the truth"... This is not Phil taking a stance against these very rare clickbait reviews, this is just a salty man who couldn't accept his games not getting the scores he wants so he's shifting the blame to reviewers.

 

[More_Badass]

He's right, but not to great effect with Recore or other middle-of-the-road games. It tends to stir up controversy with critical juggernauts. You have those reviewers that give a 90+ Metacritic game a 2/10, for clicks. That definitely happens.

Why can't "a 90+ Metacritic game" earn a 2/10 review?

 

[Zeuanimals]

ReCore may not be the best example to use, but clickbait reviews are a thing, and Phil isn't wrong. Massive outlier scores should be looked at with scrutiny, like Halo 4's 2/10 and Forza's 4/10.

I'll repost what I wrote up there.

I don't think that's how reviewers who use the 5 point system view it. A 5 point scale is closer to an A-F grading system. If your game gets a 1 out of 5, then you're anywhere in the 0-59 range, meaning an F. It doesn't matter how close you are to a D, you still got an F. Sure, it's even worse if you get 0/100 but a failure's a failure.

Whoever rated FH3 a 2/5 is saying it's a D, somewhere in the 60s. Or maybe I'm off and these rating systems are abstract and we should listen to the opinions more than what the reviewer thinks the appropriate number is based on their opinion.

Or that ^^

 

[AyaisMUsikWhore]

I think he's right. Some reviewers do give shitty reviews for the click... Especially if it's a critically acclaimed game. We seen that many stand out titles like the Witcher 3, TLOU, Uncharted, Halo etc etc... There's always that one.. But it's also the visa versa too.

 

[Wagram]

He's right, but I don't think Recore is the sword to die on. It got what it deserved.

 

[OverBlood 3]

This is the same thing those rooster teeth idiots accused Jeff Gerstmann of doing when he gave Fallout 4 a 4/5.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

Why can't "a 90+ Metacritic game" earn a 2/10 review?

Seriously. Reviews are much more interesting when they are personal opinions. If you make a good case for that 2/10, I will enjoy reading your review

 

[shamanick]

It's really dumb to call any outlier scores clickbait. Diversity of opinion should be celebrated. People in here are talking like they know for a fact that a low score for something like FH3 is motivated solely for nefarious purposes, we are getting into UC3 review thread levels of idiocy

 

[MetalGearZed]

They do

but this isn't one of those times

sorry Phil

 

[Garrett 2U]

Jesus guys! All these "he's right" and "he's telling the truth"... This is not Phil taking a stance against these very rare clickbait reviews, this is just a salty man who couldn't accept his games not getting the scores he wants so he's shifting the blame to reviewers.

Okay, that is your interpretation

 

[Doctor_Thomas]

He's not wrong, but I think the problem is too many people see a negative score for a high scoring game and assume it's click bait.

Reviews are opinions and it bothers me when I see a list of opinions that are all positive with not a single negative review because I REFUSE to believe that not a single reviewer disliked a game. I want to know what potential flaws could be getting glossed over or why a person dislikes it.

Those outlier scores could well be the most honest because it's someone having to justify a low score, rather than PR a high one.

 

[Chobel]

Okay, that is your interpretation

It's the logical interpretation as well

Spoiler

(thx Head.spawn)

 

[Night Angel]

Okay, that is your interpretation

It's also the correct interpretation.

E: dammit Chobel

"What do you think about the reviews of game X?"

"It was lower than we hoped, but apropos of nothing we've seen undeserved low scores given to great games in the past." Hmm. Doesn't that imply that the game being discussed doesn't deserve the scores it got?

 

[Fishook]

People take reviews too seriously, I rather use my judgement of games I think I may like based on genre and subject matter. As I can usually fine some enjoyment in poorly reviewed games if a setting appeals to me.

 

[New002]

Why can't "a 90+ Metacritic game" earn a 2/10 review?

It can, because reviews are largely subjective, but that still doesn't mean there can't be instances where scores are manipulated to generate clicks. Even just a point or two difference can be enough to push somee buttons. Another poster chimed in saying they submitted a freelance review and the owner of the site lowered their score on the published version for this very reason.

But sure, someone can legit think a 90+ Metacritic is only deserving of a 2/10, and it just so happens that's gonna generate clicks. It doesn't mean they gave it that score just to get more clicks. Heck, you wouldn't want to see me try and review FF7 lol.

 

[Lemonte]

Yeah! Like Jeff Gerstmann gave fallout4 "bad" score so they could get more clicks!

 

[rockyt]

Kinda weird since I feel like majority of games are over scored.

 

[The Hamburglar]

Why do people expect better from Phil? He spews nothing but pr people want to hear.

 

[FinaruDensetsu]

Guys he's not saying that in the history of human kind there have been reviews that were clickbait. That would be hard to argue against.

He's specifically referring to his two exclusives in this unless you believe he's in some kind of fugue state and just going random stream of consciousness and ignoring the interviewers question.

 

[Ascenion]

It's really dumb to call any outlier scores clickbait. Diversity of opinion should be celebrated. People in here are talking like they know for a fact that a low score for something like FH3 is motivated solely for nefarious purposes, we are getting into UC3 review thread levels of idiocy

Did you read that FH3 review? The issue with that is the review itself doesn't justify the score. The review has to back up its argument be it positive or negative and imo the FH3 review doesn't. If it did I wouldn't say a word.

On the whole I agree with Phil this likely does happen but Recore was not a victim. Gaming would probably improve with a rotten tomatoes like approach versus the metacritic one. An opinion can be positive or negative but the score shouldn't be the focus. A game can get a 6/10 and the review still be positive.

 

[SmoothRunningGun]

Polygon's review of tlou comes to mind, but I don't think this is the case with recore. Either way he probably shouldn't say this even if he thinks it. It's a bad look.

 

[Complicated]

It almost certainly happens, but Recore was just released too early. It sounds like it's pretty great after the patch they just put out. Can't wait to try it.

 

[SilentRob]

Polygon's review of tlou comes to mind, but I don't think this is the case with recore. Either way he probably shouldn't say this even if he thinks it. It's a bad look.

Did you actually read Polygon's review and decided then that Phil Kollar had such bad arguments and little actual reason for his score that he just decided to rate it worse to get more clicks? Was it that clear from his text that there HAD to be one more point in there?
Also, actual experience with the matter instead of baseless assumptions:

Jeff Gerstman on Twitter:

In my experience, outlier review scores don't actually generate much more traffic than review scores that line up with the average.

¯\_(&#12484_/¯

 

[Sakujou]

in these days, if its not one of those AAA games like cod, it most likely will not hit top 80s.
i mean it has been like that for ages, some gakes do really get a high score, but after playing some hours, it becomes really bland.

most recently the whole shit about no mans sky showed us, how you can black mail media and still score so well for a broken game.

 

[Schopenhauerian]

...However, on Brad's review of ReCore it seems like the end of the world...

I was quite struck by this as well, when I saw Brad/Jeff's Quick Look.

...I'm quite liking Recore from the 5 or so hours I've spent with it... I don't think you can blame reviewers for not seeing the best in a game's mechanics if they may simply lack the skill required to get the most of it... when played well on some of the more challenging segments the game can appear to look (and even actually play) better than the majority of games in its category... but that's not going to [be] everyone's experience with it, and a reviewer shouldn't be [demanded] to "git gud" in order to have their impression considered valid. Especially in most of the audience they're reviewing for also won't "git gud", and as a result more likely share that reviewer's initial opinion.

This is an interesting discussion to have. I remember Fdkn's post, in the ReCore review thread, succinctly addressed some related issues (my thoughts here). In any case, some folks do still feel that ReCore has been unduly penalized for difficulty, without any kind of accounting for (or acknowledgement of) the niche/subset of gamers for whom that level/kind of challenge is in fact an asset (i.e., something to be appreciated, not worthy of penalty, a net positive). Perhaps it's an indication of the extent to which a certain type of challenge has fallen out of favor, at least with an influential class of folks.

...the game's scores and people's general impressions of it are/were harmed by a bunch collision bugs and long loading times, that may have elevated it noticeably had the game received a bit more time to have these ironed out.

Certainly. Though some feel that ReCore was more harshly penalized for bugs than other recent, relatively higher-budget (and higher-priced) games. BudokaiMR2 highlighted one prominent example, above, with which I'd agree.

Also 'it's too punishing... controls like shit' is probably not the sort of commentary you want in a video to make the points you're making.

He made a mistake in that section, and was venting. As he writes in the comments section of the video: "Just so you know how difficult this is. Have to do this under 3 mins, shoot all 10 switches, and collect the hidden yellow key. All in a single run. Hard. But good hard. I miss quality platforming. -Brad" I had a few other observations on that particular video here, and some related thoughts here.

 

[SilentRob]

in these days, if its not one of those AAA games like cod, it most likely will not hit top 80s.
i mean it has been like that for ages, some gakes do really get a high score, but after playing some hours, it becomes really bland.

most recently the whole shit about no mans sky showed us, how you can black mail media and still score so well for a broken game.

Yeah, these days, only AAA games can reach top 80.

It's literally impossible otherwise.
Has been for ages!
It's all about the graphics!

I mean, only Call of Duty get high 80s these days!

 

[Chobel]

Yeah, these days, only AAA games can reach top 80.

It's literally impossible otherwise.
Has been for ages!
It's all about the graphics!

I mean, only Call of Duty get high 80s these days!

Damn!

 

[Crayon]

Microsoft themselves rated Recore 40 out of 60.

 

[Hexer06]

Okay so I can't read the article right now cuz I'm at work, but isn't he mainly just talking about the fh3 review that gave it a 4/10? The interview I watched with him when he said something like this was about that review. He said he was disappointed with Recore reviews, but he didn't mention anything about them being click bait. Wondering if this was taken outta context?

 

[AzerPhire]

Seriously. Reviews are much more interesting when they are personal opinions. If you make a good case for that 2/10, I will enjoy reading your review

The problem is the content of the review does not match up with the score. The low FH3 review is the perfect example of this.

 

[MisterR]

It's also the correct interpretation.

E: dammit Chobel

"What do you think about the reviews of game X?"

"It was lower than we hoped, but apropos of nothing we've seen undeserved low scores given to great games in the past." Hmm. Doesn't that imply that the game being discussed doesn't deserve the scores it got?

Yes. It implies exactly that. Many of our friends in this thread lack basic reading comprehension.

 

[oti]

Yeah! Like Jeff Gerstmann gave fallout4 "bad" score so they could get more clicks!

That Gerstmann guy didn't even wear the amazing plastic tech marvel they're selling for 100 bucks on his wrist while talking about the true Best Next Gen Open World Experience™! He can't be trusted.

 

[FinaruDensetsu]

Okay so I can't read the article right now cuz I'm at work, but isn't he mainly just talking about the fh3 review that gave it a 4/10? The interview I watched with him when he said something like this was about that review. He said he was disappointed with Recore reviews, but he didn't mention anything about them being click bait. Wondering if this was taken outta context?

Nah. He refers to "certain reviews" as being clickbaity. FH3 got only 1 low review.

Nobody refers to a singular using a plural.

 

[Banjo-Kazooie]

Seriously. Reviews are much more interesting when they are personal opinions. If you make a good case for that 2/10, I will enjoy reading your review

The issue is most people often don't. When your review is "this game isn't Dirt Rally, 4/10" then it's like...welp

 

[Astral Dog]

I thought it was the contrary, some reviewers scored higly to get in good graces with publishers

Spoiler

with free travel and expensive gifts

 

[SicSemperTyrannis]

The issue is most people often don't. When your review is "this game isn't Dirt Rally, 4/10" then it's like...welp

This was my issue with the FH3 review in question. He complains about the additions, but says the game is too much the same. Then says that the arcadey sub-game to the Forza series should be a straight sim like the core Forza games. Nonsensical.

 

[JABEE]

Polygon's review of tlou comes to mind, but I don't think this is the case with recore. Either way he probably shouldn't say this even if he thinks it. It's a bad look.

There was nothing wrong with Polygon's review of the Last of Us.

 

[Crayon]

I thought it was the contrary, some reviewers scored higly to get in good graces with publishers

Spoiler

with free travel and expensive gifts

This happens more often.

 

[tiredheadcrab]

This was my issue with the FH3 review in question. He complains about the additions, but says the game is too much the same. Then says that the arcadey sub-game to the Forza series should be a straight sim like the core Forza games. Nonsensical.

Can't you adjust FH3 to act like a sim racer? That review sounds misinformed at best.

 

[oti]

I don't disagree. Actually I do, I think he (or any suit) should be able to comment on the subject. But yes, a better choice of words and phrasing would have been more appropriate for a senior exec.

I don't think commenting on this is what "a suit" should do. In any shape or form. Some random MS PR dude could do this (drawing a great backlash), but not the Head of Xbox.

Guys, this is not your friendly neighbor or your friend. It's the Head of Xbox. He doesn't have to be relatable or likeable. In fact, if you genuinely like this guy or any other person like him in this (or any other) industry you should take a step back and reevaluate your feelings towards companies and brands™ in general.

 

[Rymuth]

in these days, if its not one of those AAA games like cod, it most likely will not hit top 80s.
i mean it has been like that for ages, some gakes do really get a high score, but after playing some hours, it becomes really bland.

most recently the whole shit about no mans sky showed us, how you can black mailmedia and still score so well for a broken game.

Blackmail? Whats the context here?

 

[paulogy]

Saying reviewers give games low scores just for the clicks is like saying developers make mainstream games just for the money.

And sure, maybe there's some truth to that, but why go down that path?

 

[Jawbreaker]

Yeah, these days, only AAA games can reach top 80.

It's literally impossible otherwise.
Has been for ages!
It's all about the graphics!

I mean, only Call of Duty get high 80s these days!

You should be looking at the PS4 version of Axiom Verge which is sitting at an 84 on MC. Sorry, felt like pointing that out. I agree with your sentiment, otherwise. Perhaps put Undertale in its place. ;]

 

[SicSemperTyrannis]

Can't you adjust FH3 to act like a sim racer? That review sounds misinformed at best.

Exactly. He also complained that the game was too easy. I play on default settings and always come in first, going up one difficulty changes that and would require me to be marginally better. I'm not good at racing games, but enjoy cruising around the FH open worlds and am glad the default is as forgiving as it is. He also mentions being able to rewind as a negative, as if you HAVE to use that optional feature meant for non racing game enthusiasts or gamers that just want to enjoy a game they spent $60 on.

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

Why can't "a 90+ Metacritic game" earn a 2/10 review?

Because a 2/10 would be a broken, unplayable mess of a game?

If it's getting 90s everywhere, then clearly the 20 is for clicks. Sorry, it is.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

The issue is most people often don't. When your review is "this game isn't Dirt Rally, 4/10" then it's like...welp

I just looked up the review. It raised some interesting points and kept me entertained. As someone who doesn't much enjoy racing games, I felt like it resonated.

Still, I guess it can be frustrating if the reviewer never really gives the game a chance, or isn't really the target audience, which seems to be the case here. I remember being frustrated by dumb people whining at getting stuck in The Witness. It's not a game for dumb people, so I felt these reviewers were a bad match for the game. I guess fans of FH3 feels something similar about this review. Still, maybe a racing game review for people who don't like racing games, or a The Witness review for dumb people could still be useful for those groups of people

No game is for everyone, and maybe reviews should reflect this

 

[ScientificPizza]

This was my issue with the FH3 review in question. He complains about the additions, but says the game is too much the same. Then says that the arcadey sub-game to the Forza series should be a straight sim like the core Forza games. Nonsensical.

Yeah, I had major issues with that review in the review thread, but none of those issues had to do with it's score

When you start a review by accusing the developer of being bored with the game they're making like wyd

 

[Primethius]

Because a 2/10 would be a broken, unplayable mess of a game?

If it's getting 90s everywhere, then clearly the 20 is for clicks. Sorry, it is.

Not every reviewer uses the same scale to mean the same thing. I mean, just me and you would probably disagree on what a 1 out of 5 would mean, and reviewers are the same way.

 

[ResoRai]

I thought he was talking about FH3, correct? Saw the quote was misinterpreted around page 2. How is the narrative about him talking about ReCore still going on 14 pages?