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Poor AMD performance with DOOM.
- Thread starter VlaudTheImpaler
- Start date
Well I don't know I remember it very well being an issue back then and trying to fix it for my friend. A simple google search produces many results for issues with ati cards, maybe I am remembering wrong though.
Stevey
Member
dr_rus
Member
It's a separate thing in one area only -- AMD's OpenGL drivers.
And as I've said you can't compare beta performance to release because both the maximum settings and the testing sequences are different. From what I was able to gather, the game perform pretty evenly between AMD and NV on a "medium" preset (which was used in betas coincidentally), it's only on "high" and "ultra" when AMD is starting to fall behind.
You can argue that the higher end presets weren't optimized for AMD's h/w as they are targeting PCs specifically where NV has an upper hand in market size but that's basically AMD's having a taste of their own medicine of late - if it's not the drivers fault then that just shows that a game which is properly optimized for NV's h/w will actually run great on NV's h/w, disregarding anything about NV dropping the ball with drivers and such crap.
General Lee
Member
And that is what I'm arguing here. More than likely once they started to come up with extra graphics for the PC port, they did it all optimizing for the Nvidia cards they used, and simply ignored performance on Radeons, perhaps believing it'd be good enough based on the port history. And now the only comment they've given is "AMD is working on it", which only implies to me that they are not doing anything themselves.
dr_rus
Member
Well, as I've said it's unlikely because if the code is optimized for console GCN it will remain optimized even on higher LODs which is what PC higher end presets essentially are.
I'm 99% certain that it's the driver issue here (and that's what id lead programmer is suggesting as well) and if that's the case it will be fixed either with driver updates or Vulkan renderer.
Beerman462
Member
My take away despite all the AMD open gl drivers are shit posts despite previous id tech games running fine is the 390/290 performing worse than the 380X. That seems like a driver problem particular to DOOM. Someone else said that Nvidia cards are running OGL 4.5 and AMD 4.3 in the final game, but both ran 4.5 in the beta. Is there any truth to this and if so...why?
General Lee
Member
Sure it can be a driver issue, but once again, It's probably something they weren't paying any attention to and left AMD no time to fix it in time for release. The end result is the same regardless.
dr_rus
Member
If that's a driver issue then there's nothing id should've been paying attention to.
VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
Yeah, part of it was because I was frustrated but part of it was because people where coming off like I should have known better...
I absolutely disagree on the first part. Especially if they are going to advertise AMD cards, which they know full well have a historical problem with their code, on the marketplace as the recommended and minimum specs. They should advertise the game warning about the AMD card performance when selling on any marketplace. Or marketplaces should force this. This would be better for the consumer. Period.
This would also cause AMD to produce better drivers if it really is their fault and it would cause id to better optimize their code for AMD drivers if it isn't AMD's fault if they want the market share. It would even work out if they were both at fault.
Either way, the consumer should at least be informed of the situation before they buy.
AMD has no money, nor the inclination to fix OpenGL. Strategically, it isn't an area that they're likely to get a lot of gains from either.
VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
Then they should feel the pain and not he consumer. My point still stands.
I also disagree on the not seeing any gains if they where to invest into their OpenGL drivers more.
They are feeling the pain. But one should note, not so much from poor OpenGL support. Khronos hasn't done much to help its relevancy in games.
AMD OpenGL support has historically not been great. Unfortunately with Vulkan around the corner AMD have no incentive to ever correct the situation. They may make some changes to get this game working better, but I doubt they'll ever make an effort to catch up with Nvidia's OpenGL driver quality.
Also Durante is correct in being glad that ID stuck with OpenGL. Without a major developer using it, the spotlight would have fallen completely off OpenGL and I'd imagine the OpenGL environment would be in an even worse state. The occasional ID release kept the graphics card vendors on their toes.
Also Durante is correct in being glad that ID stuck with OpenGL. Without a major developer using it, the spotlight would have fallen completely off OpenGL and I'd imagine the OpenGL environment would be in an even worse state. The occasional ID release kept the graphics card vendors on their toes.
VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
Yeah, but so are the consumers but not in the way that we should. It would be better for us to know and not buy rather than to buy and then find out. It would be more painful for AMD and developers to have the poor performance warned of on the marketplaces so that consumers are informed. This way, it doesn't matter who's really to blame it puts equal amounts of fire under the butts of whomever it pertains to invest in the issue if they want the marketshare and if they want to save face.
No need for all of this conspiracy blaming crap. It's going to be impossible to know who exactly is to blame. What we know are the facts that AMD cards have trouble with this and most OpenGL games. Period. People should know before they buy.
I'm still trying to figure out how it's in any way the developers fault that AMD has poor OpenGL drivers. OpenGL is an open standard and as long as ID is compliant with the standard then it should be up to the graphics card vendors to make sure their drivers perform optimally. The developer working around driver problems does nothing but enable poor drivers to stay poor. Ideally AMD would fix the problems and every user would benefit when they use other OpenGL software. The general sentiment in this thread should be "AMD, please fix your drivers."
VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
I am not taking any sides here because I think it is impossible to know who is to blame. I have seen people go back and forth on this and from what little research I've done it seems like this "back and forth blaming" has gone on for ages.
My point is to implement a system where it doesn't matter who is to blame. It equally motivates whomever that would be, without having to know who it is, to fix the issues and it protects the consumer from this ridiculous issue more than they are. Which in my case and many others was very little.
Beautiful Ninja
Member
Previous idTech games didn't run fine, that's the issue. If you look at benchmarks, sure, they had good average FPS. Then you actually try to play the game on an AMD card and the games were plagued with bugs that never got fixed, likely due to AMD's OGL drivers being garbage.
Go look through the Steam reviews for Wolfenstein New Order/Old Blood, it felt like at least 1/3rd of the the negative votes the games had were related to AMD specific issues that never got fixed.
The consumer benefits more when driver problems are fixed rather than worked around. It's a fix for all software versus one game working better. At any rate it seems like this will all be sidestepped when the Vulkan version is released.
You may be right, but all I know is that the Dolphin devs don't seem to think very highly of AMDs implementation regardless of whatever Nvidia is doing.
VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
this is probably your best hope since amd's DX11 drivers are still such garbage
e. wait this game is actually opengl? weird, especially with carmack gone i wouldn't have expected that
RazorbackDB
Member
What are you guys talking about?, it runs great:
https://twitter.com/Roy_techhwood/status/731246539398479873
https://twitter.com/Roy_techhwood/status/731246539398479873
on a dual GPU card, no less. Must be magic.
VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
Well I tweeted him this thread. Crossing fingers.
id Tech 6 is simply (or rather "simply") a modified id Tech 5 as opposed to the fundamental overhaul Carmack had envisioned. Implementing a D3D renderer would have made little sense given the presence of a mature OpenGL renderer.
The game is on the Xb1, so they do have a DirectX backend somewhere.
Sure, as are all id Tech 5 games, but -- and I'm sure this goes without saying -- porting a game from the X360/X1 to the PC isn't as simple as pressing a button.
SLI and Crossfire aren't supported by idTech 6 currently. I'd imagine he's running it on one card.
I would say wait for Vulcan and see how it performs then, in its current state you wouldn't get near 60fps.
Thanks man, hanging tight then.
SneakyStephan
Banned
abracadaver
Member
Maybe he enjoys playing games at 20fps
He's playing it on Vulcan
lol, this guy. Doom doesn't even support sli/CF, does it?
FrenchMovieTheme
Member
im playing with an i5-2500, r9 390, 16 gb ram and the game is fine (everything is on ultra, 1080p). i get 80+ fps most of the time, i've never seen it drop much outside of cutscenes. but if i enable vsync, it automatically drops it to 30 fps... kind of weird
id Software is an Nvidia shop it's been their preference to swing that way for a long time.
It's a little strange to see the current issues with the R9 290X/390 since that certainly was not the case with the Alpha back in February when AMD was Dominating this particular title.
Feb 2016:
http://vrworld.com/2016/02/29/doom-alpha-benchmark-amd-dominates-over-nvidia/
Alpha means alpha. Rough stuff. Not release. You really need to stop reading a site like this if you can't remember that. The idiot who wrote that was just trying for page hits or clicks or whatever. And again. Don't preorder. Wait to see how the game works and reviews. If need be wait till a driver for your card is out. Or skip it if it won't be there. I feel for you on the disappointment. I am sure the good folks at AMD are working hard to fix it.
From the site:
"The results above show a direct vindication of my recommendations since I joined the industry. I have always firmly believed that when you build your system, you need to build the top end graphics card, followed by as much system memory and fastest storage you can buy." Unbiased reporting! Glad the data set proved his vindication of you need a high end system. Wow.
VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
You never get any dips at all? Even in the intro stage? That's where almost everyone is seeing issues. Also, No dips when there is smoke or reflections on the screen? The game also lags for me whenever I get close with a shotgun blast. It's just hard for me to believe that everything is peachy for you given all of the complaints. Maybe you aren't sensitive to microstutter though. Also, do you have a FreeSync monitor? Would really like to know your settings outside of the game because I and many others are getting terrible microstutter and tearing if I enabe Vsync or lock the framerate via Riva Tuner. The game just ignores a lot of my Comand Console settings though and I've heard the same from others as well.
If that's the case than it's good news for SLI and Crossfire. Can't wait to use both of my cards.
Vulkan doesn't support mGPU yet.
FrenchMovieTheme
Member
You never get any dips at all? Even in the intro stage? That's where almost everyone is seeing issues. Also, No dips when there is smoke or reflections on the screen? The game also lags for me whenever I get close with a shotgun blast. It's just hard for me to believe that everything is peachy for you given all of the complaints. Maybe you aren't sensitive to microstutter though. Also, do you have a FreeSync monitor? Would really like to know your settings outside of the game because I and many others are getting terrible microstutter and tearing if I enabe Vsync or lock the framerate via Riva Tuner. The game just ignores a lot of my Comand Console settings though and I've heard the same from others as well.
well i can replay the intro stage but i had played the first bit of the game after turning on vsync (which i do for every game) and noticed it was running like crap.
i have on the "low" system notice to give me the FPS and i'm not saying there literally aren't any dips at all (it doesn't stay at exactly 90 fps all the time for instance) but ive never seen it drop significantly, and certainly never below 60 fps.
i'm not sure about the microstutter? is there a vid somewhere showing it? not saying it isn't there but the game seems smooth for me.
here are my settings shown within the amd panel:
i thought i had 16 gb ram but i guess not.
as for my doom settings, it is all set to ultra.
i went into the game just now on level 4 or 5 to watch the FPS counter and you are right that it does drop at times below 60 fps. its weird because when the guy starts talking at the beginning of the level and im just standing there it drops from 100 to 55 for no reason (im not moving) then when he stops it goes back up. then when there are a couple enemies there it is still running at high fps, but after a few more show up i did see it drop to 55-60 and kind of fluctuate from there.... there are times where there were quite a few enemies and it is still running at a high fps.
i guess you are right and i just didn't notice it in the middle of all the shooting/killing :/
abracadaver
Member
How? Is he a developer or someone from the press?
Unknown Soldier
Member
If you want to make them feel the pain, throw your AMD card in the trash and buy an Nvidia card and never buy AMD cards again. Your only right as a consumer is to do what you want with your wallet. You have no other rights.
Id Software is literally the only game dev using OpenGL. Id has released 3 games in the last 15 years. AMD is broke, why would they invest into OpenGL to support 3 games over 15 years?
And yes, the Vulkan renderer is coming, hopefully soonish. I think they said they wanted it out within weeks of release somewhere?
No. Neither Nvidia nor AMD have multi-GPU working. SLI is promised, though nobody knows when. There hasn't been a game for OpenGL since Rage (2011) so it's not clear how much work Nvidia would need to put in or how long it will take to implement SLI for DOOM.
RazorbackDB
Member
He works for AMD, but he didn't say he was using a Vulkan, at least from what I saw.
VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
Because they want to avoid me doing the exact thing that you are saying that I should. I run a business myself. A positive mindshare as apposed to a negative one is a worthwhile investment in the long run even if it costs them a little in the beginning.
I also think that you are totally wrong on what you think my view is on consumer rights. There is a difference between what my rights ultimately are and what services or people could do that would be better for the consumer. There is no reason that we shouldn't advocate for that. Unless you are more for the corporations than the consumers.