Support NeoGAF

[Lord of Ostia]

Most consumers don't want to pay for more powerful tech. If they did, we'd have a lot more high end PC owners in the market. Until consumers want to shell out $1000 for a top of the line machine, developers are always going to be 'held back' by consoles. In all seriousness though, 90% of devs aren't even pushing the limits of PS4/Xbox One, and the modest sales of PS4 Pro, and the most likely modest sales of Xbox One X, prove that it's more the market and the consumer's desire for low price hardware that is holding things back. Affordability is more important than power, we've seen this time and time again.

 

[Neuro]

Hey guys, they made DOOM run on PS4.

You forget at 60 FPS...

On topic looking at Uncharted 4 , Horizon and God of War, it is really hard to believe the system is 5 years old...

The statement that has been highlighted is quite contrary to what the game is aimed to be...My question to this guys is look why does he need the extra power, it is not like his own game is rendering miles and miles of open spaces each with a unique AI system, its designed to offer an experience closer to couch co-op.

Correct me if I am wrong when I make the statement, some of the most memorable games in any generation do not rely solely on the power of visuals...BoTW is a classic example of Nintendo providing an enriching world without having half the power of current generation machines

 

[Hermii]

To a certain extent, the "underpowered" statement is somewhat overstated. PC's have lots of stuff running in the background, even when a game is running. The PS4 just needs to run the game.

Look at a game that exists for both a PS4 and PC, the PC requirements are usually higher than the PS4 specs.

This used to be a lot truer than it is today. PS1, 2, 3 os took up next to no resources while this gens console oses are closer to pc.

 

[Bl@de]

Why are people getting so defensive? PS4 is basically a 5 year old PC.

It seems like people can't stand the truth. The PS4 is basically a 5 year old PC. That's just a fact. Doesn't mean that games have to look bad on it (but image quality definetly suffers because of poor AF and AA, LOD pop-in, etc.)

 

[Liljagare]

I'd say lack of innovation and using only tools is a huge issue in today's gaming industry. And, even on the PC the majority have hardly even moved to the new 1060-1080 cards and their likes.

Just that we rarely see new fresh ideas is a huge issue imho.

 

[Zojirushi]

Oh so we're at this point in the cycle again where console exclusives start looking amazing while multiplat devs get increasingly annoyed?

 

[grandwizard]

So I caught up with the rest of the thread. Some of you really raked the developer over the coals over a harmless quote. Let's look at the facts.

He said that the PS4 holds developers back. This is undeniably true. In technological terms and compared to the advances over the last few years the technology that powers the PS4 is severely outdated and holds back developers from achieving what they want because they have to design for the lowest common denominator, which are the PS4 and Xbox One. This undeniable fact is why so many of you want a new console generation to be a clean break and not an iterative step. It is why so many of you hate cross-gen games with a passion. The developer said nothing controversial or out of the ordinary and the only reason why the reaction is so over the top is because he compared the PS4 to PC. Had he said "the PS4 is holding us back, I want a PS5" or "the Xbox One is holding the PS4 back" I would bet a sizeable chunk of cash that the reaction would have been completely different.

In purely technological terms, old tech is holding back new tech. Gasp, right? How dare he say that. By now it has been widely documented that the CPU used in these consoles was very weak even by 2013 standards. It's normal for developers to wish they had more power to work with. The business side of things, why developers have to code for these outdated platforms and can't just target high-end hardware, is a completely different issue and doesn't disprove the developer's quote.

Finally, since some of you may be too young to remember, there was a time when AAA big budget PC exclusives existed and proliferated. 1996's Wing Commander IV was the most expensive game ever made, its budget dwarfed every console game. Consoles didn't invent the concept of the AAA game. The reason we don't get AAA PC exclusives today is the same reason we don't get AAA console exclusives outside of first-party games and moneyhats: During the '00s the console and PC platforms and its games libraries converged to such a degree that it no longer made any financial sense to have a game be exclusive to one platform if you weren't getting paid for it. Think back to the days of the PS2 and realize that third-party non-moneyhatted exclusives have since completely died off. Why do you think that is?

Great post. It's utterly absurd how much this quote triggered people on this forum, especially when he is basically stating the obvious. Bring up the PC and people just freak the hell out and go into uber defense mode.

The exclusives 'war' in this thread is completely bogus as well. People keep bringing up Uncharted and Horizon not realizing that they are first party paid for exclusives meant to sell the platform and not reach the widest sales. There is a reason every AAA game these days NOT paid for by a first party comes out on everything, you need the biggest return on such an enormous investment.

Even by those standards you see the usual console-gaf ignoring PC games because they aren't in a specific third person action/adventure genre so they don't count. Games like Total Warhammer and PUBG have done great on PC and are exclusive and hardware demanding games. XCOM 2 was a demanding exclusive for a long time and eventually got downport to consoles where it barely runs without imploding.

 

[NewGame]

A <console> is like a <numerical value> old PC and it's really holding developers back.

Honestly 5 years? PC games from almost 20 years ago still out outperform games of today. How about actually developing something that plays well instead of slapping on more polygons and shaders and declaring "better!!"

 

[El-Pistolero]

Skyrim with mods looks stunning. But the advantage of Sony's first party games is a distinct level of polish. There's no jankiness anywhere to be seen, just perfectly rendered character models and stunningly smooth animations. Sure they might not be 60fps but they are more than a sum of their parts.

And this is also why Nintendo games manage to looked so good despite Switch. The level of polish and art makes them really stand above the hardware they're running on.

But the point to all this is that if Sony and Nintendo can elevate their games to that level on their ageing hardware specification, then it's not really worth arguing that hardware is also holding games back. Only imagination is holding developers back.

Wonderful post!

 

[Quasar]

Probably the same for your average PC owners also...
This article is wack.

I'll admit mine probably is. It is still a 2500k based thing after all.

 

[El-Pistolero]

It was holding developers back at launch.
This isn't new.

As confirmed by the last batch of titles looking less impressive than those launch titles...

 

[Alchemy]

Old consoles are as powerful as they were when the released nearly four years ago while PCs are stronger and significantly more expensive. News at 11.

 

[Stiflers Mom]

*shrugs* I think a lot of current gen games look amazing.

I think it's more kind of a lack of technical prowess that's holding certain devs (like From Software) back.

 

[Sad Affleck]

Nah, fuck him. Super Mario Bros 3 is a far more ambitious and creative game than this developer will ever make, and that runs on potatoes. Blaming your own shortcomings on the level of tech we have today makes you sound like a creatively bankrupt piece of shit.

I have serious issues with what you're saying. The developer's game is actually one of the most creative titles shown during E3. The developer's previous game is a true masterpiece, a phenomenal title that makes a great case for games as an art form. The developer was responding to some criticism on how the game looked, I find it completely absurd to even suggest that this particular developer is using it as an excuse because he is creatively bankrupt. He and his studio deserve much more than being a casualty in a platform war.

 

[Stencil]

Ya, okay bud. How is the tech really holding you back. I have a hard time believing that with the best computing available right now that we'd really see anything different. Better graphics, sure. Better AI, possibly. But it's not like the current tech is stopping any dev's ideas from coming to fruition.

 

[gun_haver]

I dunno about if the PS4 was more powerful you would see 'all different games'. I think you'd see the same bunch of bullshit 3rd person cover shooters and FPSes that are all entry no's 8-15 in their respective series. The characters would just have flopper hair or whatever.

 

[Jashobeam]

Yea the ps4 with its 60+ million user base is holding devs back, so go make a AAA game in 1-2 years using current tech to its fullest, and try and make your money back selling it to the few thousand that can run the game, good luck with that

 

[icecold1983]

According to various devs on b3d, older pc hardware is more of a burden then consoles. The consoles have limited performance compared to a high end pc but support the latest in rendering techniques. When dealing with the pc version of a game most developers who want their game to have a large audience have to code to a much older baseline. Feature 11_0 gpus, old cpus like the core 2 line that dont support modern cpu instructions, windows 7 which limits you to dx11.0 etc.

 

[Sotha_Sil]

I dunno about if the PS4 was more powerful you would see 'all different games'. I think you'd see the same bunch of bullshit 3rd person cover shooters and FPSes that are all entry no's 8-15 in their respective series. The characters would just have flopper hair or whatever.

Agreed.

To be honest, weak consoles are nice for me with a mid-range PC (480 4gb and 6600k). I get to enjoy modern games at great framerates if the PC version is done well. Alien Isolation at 120fps, DOOM at 100 fps, Prey at 90fps, Witcher 3 at 60fps... these were all easily attainable on my build with 30 seconds of tweaking settings, and it changes the game. I look forward to Wolfenstein TNC running at 100fps as well.

 

[pagrab]

I am going to risk a controversial statement and say, that not only consoles do not hold PC back, but they actually help to advance PC graphics.

Technology isn't the most significant factor. The most significant factor is the manpower and the time needed to build great looking games, such as Horizon or Uncharted. Hence, everything boils down to money. There is nothing that prevents PC developers to build great looking games on PC. And why do they not do that (for the most part)? Because the userbase is too small and there is no way to recoup the investment.

Now imagine what would have happened if there were no consoles, only PCs. Developers would use the lowest common denominator, just as they do today. But the common lowest denominator would have been much lower, than it is now. It would be a shitty notebook or a desktop sold at supermarkets.

 

[Fredrik]

I dunno about if the PS4 was more powerful you would see 'all different games'. I think you'd see the same bunch of bullshit 3rd person cover shooters and FPSes that are all entry no's 8-15 in their respective series. The characters would just have flopper hair or whatever.

So we don't need a PS5 then? That's essentially what you're saying.
The whole reason with new generations of consoles is to cut the rope to the anchor that has been holding back the evolution of gaming for so many years.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

So we don't need a PS5 then? That's essentially what you're saying.
The whole reason with new generations of consoles is to cut the rope to the anchor that has been holding back the evolution of gaming for so many years.

You can do that without consoles .
The big difference is you might not make as much money .

 

[crazy monkey]

Someone should say his machine is like 20 year old supercomputer. Do people not include price and design criteria lol.

If the car is not Ferrari than it is holding back transportation industry. Toyota and honda stops innovation some how lol.

 

[Fredrik]

I am going to risk a controversial statement and say, that not only consoles do not hold PC back, but they actually help to advance PC graphics.

Technology isn't the most significant factor. The most significant factor is the manpower and the time needed to build great looking games, such as Horizon or Uncharted. Hence, everything boils down to money. There is nothing that prevents PC developers to build great looking games on PC. And why do they not do that (for the most part)? Because the userbase is too small and there is no way to recoup the investment.

Now imagine what would have happened if there were no consoles, only PCs. Developers would use the lowest common denominator, just as they do today. But the common lowest denominator would have been much lower, than it is now. It would be a shitty notebook or a desktop sold at supermarkets.

No that's not how it works on PC. You have minimum requirements which can be exactly as low or high as the dev wish and you have recommended requirement that can be SLI 1080ti i9 if that's what the dev want. There is no hardware anchor holding anything back unless you put it there yourself as a developer. But since consoles are so popular devs usually put the console anchor there to get more sales, with better consoles the anchor wouldn't drag as far back as it is today.

 

[crazy monkey]

So we don't need a PS5 then? That's essentially what you're saying.
The whole reason with new generations of consoles is to cut the rope to the anchor that has been holding back the evolution of gaming for so many years.

New generation means money. No one does it out of kindness of their heart or to push gaming ahead. It is more about stocks and bonds than about pixels and resolutions. Longer console generation are cheaper for developer as they might have learned how to develop and tools are ready.

 

[MattKeil]

A <console> is like a <numerical value> old PC and it's really holding developers back.

Honestly 5 years? PC games from almost 20 years ago still out outperform games of today. How about actually developing something that plays well instead of slapping on more polygons and shaders and declaring "better!!"

Gonna need to hear some titles on that one. Can't think of a single one.

 

[petran79]

Finally, since some of you may be too young to remember, there was a time when AAA big budget PC exclusives existed and proliferated. 1996's Wing Commander IV was the most expensive game ever made, its budget dwarfed every console game. Consoles didn't invent the concept of the AAA game. The reason we don't get AAA PC exclusives today is the same reason we don't get AAA console exclusives outside of first-party games and moneyhats: During the '00s the console and PC platforms and its games libraries converged to such a degree that it no longer made any financial sense to have a game be exclusive to one platform if you weren't getting paid for it. Think back to the days of the PS2 and realize that third-party non-moneyhatted exclusives have since completely died off. Why do you think that is?

PCs at that time were also much more expensive. 1500$ minimum for a gaming capable Pentium PC with a 15" monitor.
If you add hardware wars between various companies, it wad a profitable scene to release computer games.
But that bubble burst eventually.

Now with 500$ Dota,Warcraft,LOL,CS desktops and laptops dominating it doesnt make sense to invest in exclusives.

 

[Go_Ly_Dow]

Devs/Pubs playing it safe and a lack of creativity is holding back gaming more than raw tech.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

No that's not how it works on PC. You have minimum requirements which can be exactly as low or high as the dev wish and you have recommended requirement that can be SLI 1080ti i9 if that's what the dev want. There is no hardware anchor holding anything back unless you put it there yourself as a developer. But since consoles are so popular devs usually put the console anchor there to get more sales, with better consoles the anchor wouldn't drag as far back as it is today.

You do know what your saying is because more people don't want to upgrade there PC to a certain spec .
We need consoles to do it so we can make money on certain types of games .

 

[Square Triangle]

But then I see games like Horizon and Uncharted 4 and am stunned even as a $1300 gaming PC owner.

 

[Deleted member 125677]

1) Selective quoting from the article

+

2) No one really interested in taking these statements within the context in which the questions were asked

+

3) A burning desire to defend ones favorite video game console from someone who is clearly wrong on the internet

=

A thread consisting of 95% thread whining and shitposts.

Yup. It's time to close up shop.