Support NeoGAF

[gofreak]

Ha, it's like Jeff read my mind.

The 2014 design 8000 series has a couple of features that would be advantageous.

1) Full HSA
2) Context switching

On that point, IIRC one of the rumours about PS4 was that Sony was tweaking for improved compute perf, and maybe some threading improvement might have been pulled over as part of that. But if a decision was made to hunker down on the 7 series as a base, I dunno if they could switch to a 8 series customisation just like that. That's all I'm saying. Maybe the 7-based chip wasn't their final target, but if it was...

In the context of a closed system they have more flexibility anyway WRT integration...so what they've been able to do with a 7-series-based chip might meet their needs in terms of 'HSA'-ish stuff.

 

[specialguy]

The 2014 design 8000 series

2014? They are probably prepping for release in 2-3 months...

Edit: For 8xxx series named, anyway. Dont know about that HSA stuff.

 

[RoboPlato]

Dunno.

I'm sure if it would make sense they would do it, but it might not be that simple.

Think it's also a question of integration and customisation. If they've been targeting the 7 series for a while, 'starting over' on a 8 series based chip might not be feasible for a release in the next 12-15 months. I'm not sure how much customisation work they're doing, but something to bear in mind.

What would the 8 series buy them anyway, assuming the same performance envelope? Unless there was some massive boost to perf-per-watt or something, the difference might not be worth the risk to the schedule.

I should probably clarify that when I mentioned an 8850 I was assuming it would basically be a repackaged pictairn GPU with just a newer shader model, slightly updated tesselator, and some other small tweaks. Performance wise it would be almost identical to a current 78XX GPU and wouldn't require much extra work, if any, to move current progress over.

BTW what does 2014 8000 series refer to? Isn't the 8000 series going to be out really early next year?

EDIT: Beaten. Haha

 

[jeff_rigby]

Ha, it's like Jeff read my mind.



On that point, IIRC one of the rumours about PS4 was that Sony was tweaking for improved compute perf, and maybe some threading improvement might have been pulled over as part of that. But if a decision was made to hunker down on the 7 series as a base, I dunno if they could switch to a 8 series customisation just like that. That's all I'm saying. Maybe the 7-based chip wasn't their final target, but if it was...

In the context of a closed system they have more flexibility anyway WRT integration...so what they've been able to do with a 7-series-based chip might meet their needs in terms of 'HSA'-ish stuff.

I could be wrong but I've assumed a 2014 design even before information on the 8000 series was released because it's the first point that custom IP and SoCs will be designed by AMD. The first point where building blocks are used to 2.5D and 3D assemble.

2014 design appears to include the 8000 series GPU.

I've continually gotten arguments on this but I'm holding fast to my position as further information on 8000 series GPUs support their use in a game console as the 2010 Sony patent about Context switching and OpenCL 1.2 seem to imply is needed.

As you imply, an OS or compiler can provide similar switching ability (Flush caches, provide flags) but it's always better to have the support in hardware with libraries supporting it going forward. It's possible that this is such a necessary feature that Alpha developer hardware not supporting it in hardware, Sony is supporting it via compiler and in software with Beta Developer platforms with 8000 series GPU to support it in hardware.

 

[jeff_rigby]

2014? They are probably prepping for release in 2-3 months...

Edit: For 8xxx series named, anyway. Dont know about that HSA stuff.

2014 design is released in 2014 but starts manufacturing earlier. In the PS4 case I expect the SoC to start being manufactured Dec 2012 Beta platforms in Developers hands March 2013 with Sales of the PS4 to start Nov 2013 unless there are issues/hiccups. As with Cars a 2014 model would start to sell the last part of 2013.

 

[thuway]

This thread got bumped and I became prematurely excited . Still no concrete info or leaks. :/

 

[specialguy]

The 8xxx series could release anytime in the next few months, with most likelyhood Nov, Dec, or Jan

There are some new rumblings just in last few days

http://videocardz.com/34981/amd-radeon-hd-8870-and-hd-8850-specifiation-leaked

This thread got bumped and I became prematurely excited . Still no concrete info or leaks. :/

Yeah, I do that too. Hoping someone posted exciting new morsel...

 

[thuway]

The 2014 design 8000 series has a couple of features that would be advantageous.

1) Full HSA
2) Context switching
3) 1.2 times more efficient than 7000 series and 7000 1.6 times more efficient than 6000
4) A 2014 full HSA design is the first point where AMD says they can have third party IP in the SoC and Custom SoCs using their building blocks to 2.5D and 3D assemble. The 8000 series Full HSA GPU is probably designed to be a building block part.

(AMD's Chips in 2014 to Support CPU-GPU Context Switching.. Sony filed a patent in 2010 about CPU-GPU context switching.) Context switching absolutely needed to efficiently use parts of the GPU as a compute element (split the GPU up into multiple GPUs/CUs (supported by OpenCL 1.2)) in games and switch back to traditional GPU use when needed.

The PS4 will have a 8000 series GPU and 2 packages of 4 Jaguar CPUs each with 2 meg L2 cache for each package. This leaves TDP room for a larger GPU or room for 2 additional CPU packages like two 1PPU3SPU packages mentioned in another 2010 Sony patent. I think rumors of 2X the performance are adding 1.6 plus 1.2 efficiency increases for a total that is almost 2X the performance. Also if DDR4 is used instead of DDR3, DDR 4 is designed for Fusion APU SoCs and requires less drive power allowing for a TDP savings inside the SoC.

So Rigby, are you saying there is a chance we could see 4gb of RAM and 2.0 teraflops of power?

 

[RoboPlato]

So Rigby, are you saying there is a chance we could see 4gb of RAM and 2.0 teraflops of power?

If we don't see 2Tflops or close to it I'd be surprised. I've seen 1.87 and 1.92 numbers being thrown around so it'll hopefully be around that. RAM is still a mystery though considering rumors are saying GDDR5 but I haven't seen any motherboard set ups from AMD than can support it. If the APU Rigby posted is actually used they may have switched to DDR4 and just have more of it.

 

[mrklaw]

Ha, it's like Jeff read my mind.



On that point, IIRC one of the rumours about PS4 was that Sony was tweaking for improved compute perf, and maybe some threading improvement might have been pulled over as part of that. But if a decision was made to hunker down on the 7 series as a base, I dunno if they could switch to a 8 series customisation just like that. That's all I'm saying. Maybe the 7-based chip wasn't their final target, but if it was...

In the context of a closed system they have more flexibility anyway WRT integration...so what they've been able to do with a 7-series-based chip might meet their needs in terms of 'HSA'-ish stuff.

isn't there a risk that if you push for more compute performance, those are transistors you aren't using for more traditional GPU roles? So you're relying on devs taking advantage of compute shaders - if they don't, then your system could be underpowered?

 

[Brad Grenz]

I think that graphic is referring to discrete GPUs. Full HSA is supposed to come to the Fusion chips earlier than that.

 

[Canis lupus]

According to the source, Radeon HD 8870 would be as fast as GeForce GTX 680, that’s 30% faster than GTX 660 Ti.

Excited, 8870 will not be the top of the line gpu next year, but something similar to GTX680 in the PS4... wow.

 

[thuway]

If we don't see 2Tflops or close to it I'd be surprised. I've seen 1.87 and 1.92 numbers being thrown around so it'll hopefully be around that. RAM is still a mystery though considering rumors are saying GDDR5 but I haven't seen any motherboard set ups from AMD than can support it. If the APU Rigby posted is actually used they may have switched to DDR4 and just have more of it.

This doesn't sound right at all. The latest rumours suggest MS is going for a 1.1-1.2 teraflop GPU. There is also evidence suggesting both MS and Sony are using the exact same parts to make the work of devs easier.

I just don't see Sony putting in a 2 teraflop GPU for the fuck of it. Especially if MS is going to take the shorter route out.

 

[DragonKnight]

Just been outta the loop for a while and i have a couple of questions. Who is jeff rigby? Whats the current ps4 spec spread looking like?

 

[mrklaw]

This doesn't sound right at all. The latest rumours suggest MS is going for a 1.1-1.2 teraflop GPU. There is also evidence suggesting both MS and Sony are using the exact same parts to make the work of devs easier.

I just don't see Sony putting in a 2 teraflop GPU for the fuck of it. Especially if MS is going to take the shorter route out.

Sony wouldn't be doing it 'for the fuck of it', they'd be doing it to try and differentiate and attract consumers.

Why would they deliberately try and be identical? Having the same CPU architecture is one thing, but deliberately aiming for the same performance just sounds crazy to me.

 

[Canis lupus]

Just been outta the loop for a while and i have a couple of questions. Who is jeff rigby? Whats the current ps4 spec spread looking like?

amd roadmap

Sea island(hd8000) gpu and Jaguar cores APU, hoping it would be Steamroller.

 

[nelsonroyale]

Sony wouldn't be doing it 'for the fuck of it', they'd be doing it to try and differentiate and attract consumers.

Why would they deliberately try and be identical? Having the same CPU architecture is one thing, but deliberately aiming for the same performance just sounds crazy to me.

Especially when they could feasibly have a more powerful GPU in there without still pricing themselves out of the marktet....Going for such a lowball would not be a selling point. I guess if MS are doing they must have their reasons

 

[DieH@rd]

Excited, 8870 will not be the top of the line gpu next year, but something similar to GTX680 in the PS4... wow.

Acording to that leak/rumor, 8870 looks like a beast that spends only 160W.

Substract 60W for its 2GB of fast GDDR5, board and power regulation chips, and you are left with only ~100W. That is manageable even for a console. Downclock it a little to get cooler chip, and we have a winrar!

 

[Limanima]

This thread got bumped and I became prematurely excited . Still no concrete info or leaks. :/

Same here. I want to know if the PS4 will have enough power to control and render 10.000 individual feathers for the Last Guardian. The entire project depends on this.

 

[DieH@rd]

Same here. I want to know if the PS4 will have enough power to control and render 10.000 individual feathers for the Last Guardian. The entire project depends on this.

I want new Ducks in a Water™ techdemo ffs!

 

[kuroshiki]

Where do they get this crazy idea of getting 8000 series for PS4?

We are lucky to even have 7000 series.

 

[DieH@rd]

Where do they get this crazy idea of getting 8000 series for PS4?

We are lucky to even have 7000 series.

Even if we get 7000 series, it will be modified for console use. 8000 gpus or some their pieces will most surely end up in ps4/x720.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Unlikely as they can have something that is "leaner" than the 7970M. The supposed target is 18CUs and the 7970M has 20CUs.

And a 8000 series GPU is 1.2X as efficient. So a 18CU 8000 series GPU should perform like a 20CU 7970 all other specs remaining the same.

We really don't know how the 18CUs are clocked but when I see the OP making the statement that the final spec is 7970 which has 20 CUs I remember to take the efficiency into account. These multiple rumors are finally supporting each other.

 

[Canis lupus]

Where do they get this crazy idea of getting 8000 series for PS4?

We are lucky to even have 7000 series.

Why would a 2010 6000 series be included in a 2013/2014 console?

 

[phosphor112]

The 2014 design 8000 series has a couple of features that would be advantageous.

1) Full HSA
2) Context switching
3) 1.2 times more efficient than 7000 series and 7000 1.6 times more efficient than 6000
4) A 2014 full HSA design is the first point where AMD says they can have third party IP in the SoC and Custom SoCs using their building blocks to 2.5D and 3D assemble. The 8000 series Full HSA GPU is probably designed to be a building block part.

(AMD's Chips in 2014 to Support CPU-GPU Context Switching.. Sony filed a patent in 2010 about CPU-GPU context switching.) Context switching absolutely needed to efficiently use parts of the GPU as a compute element (split the GPU up into multiple GPUs/CUs (supported by OpenCL 1.2)) in games and switch back to traditional GPU use when needed.

The PS4 will have a 8000 series GPU and 2 packages of 4 Jaguar CPUs each with 2 meg L2 cache for each package. This leaves TDP room for a larger GPU or room for 2 additional CPU packages like two 1PPU3SPU packages mentioned in another 2010 Sony patent. I think rumors of 2X the performance are adding 1.6 plus 1.2 efficiency increases for a total that is almost 2X the performance. Also if DDR4 is used instead of DDR3, DDR 4 is designed for Fusion APU SoCs and requires less drive power allowing for a TDP savings inside the SoC.

PLEASE BASED GOD!

Honestly, these newfangled SOC's especially AMD's context switching and HSA seems brilliant to me.

 

[Elios83]

Where do they get this crazy idea of getting 8000 series for PS4?

We are lucky to even have 7000 series.

The key difference is architecture/feature set versus performance.
If PS4 is designed around a single SOC the performance target based on the number of shaders and clock frequency will be that of mid range 7000 card. So 2 Teraflops seems spot on.
That doesn't mean that the architecture will be that of the 7000 series, they can still use all the advancements they have made in their more recent GPUs if the timing is right considering the PS4 release schedule.

 

[DieH@rd]

Why would a 2010 6000 series be included in a 2013/2014 console?

Well.... Wii U has 4xxx GPU.

 

[Wishmaster92]

Can't wait for next e3. The ps3 has been out long enough., this generation of consoles has lasted more than it should.

 

[thuway]

The key difference is architecture/feature set versus performance.
If PS4 is designed around a single SOC the performance target based on the number of shaders and clock frequency will be that of mid range 7000 card. So 2 Teraflops seems spot on.
That doesn't mean that the architecture will be that of the 7000 series, they can still use all the advancements they have made in their more recent GPUs if the timing is right considering the PS4 release schedule.

IF this really is a 8000 series GPU, I predict a 2.5 teraflop performance rating which is in-line with what Epic has been asking for AND a 10X increase on PS3. However, bgassasin has been pretty credible with his info so its hard for me to believe anyone or anything.

 

[sechsterangriff]

I have no doubt that the PS4 will be a great piece of hardware. It's the OS side of the thing that worries me.

 

[thuway]

I have no doubt that the PS4 will be a great piece of hardware. It's the OS side of the thing that worries me.

If they can get DDR4 on the cheap- they really should go as high as possible with the amount of ram put into the system. MS going for 6 GB (devkits with 12 GB) should be a red flag.

 

[coldfoot]

If they can get DDR4 on the cheap- they really should go as high as possible with the amount of ram put into the system. MS going for 6 GB (devkits with 12 GB) should be a red flag.

4 GB is and has been plenty of memory for a full blown PC, so I don't see how any more than that would really help. If anything, memory requirements are coming down with optimization, Windows 8 runs better than 7 on the same hardware.
4 GB of fast memory + 8 GB of SSD cache should be plenty for a console IMHO.

 

[Brad Grenz]

And we have reason to believe PS4 is backed by 16GB of built in flash (see OP), likely used for OS functions the same way Vita uses its built in flash memory. And 4GBs with 200GBps bandwidth is preferable to 6-8GBs with half as much bandwidth.

 

[pieatorium]

4 GB is and has been plenty of memory for a full blown PC,

4+ gigs of sytem and 1-3gigs of vram

 

[jeff_rigby]

It seems looking at the TDP of the 8850 that just slightly downclocked it might work for a PS4 IF the price is right. Anything in the 8000 series I expect is going to be 2 Tflops or more.

AMD "Oland" Radeon HD 8800 Series SKUs Unveiled
Apparently, launch of AMD's Radeon HD 8800 series is close enough for some sources to come up with specifications. The HD 8800 series, according to one source, is based on a new silicon codenamed "Oland," which is built on the 28 nm process, packing 3.4 billion transistors with around 270 mm² die-area. According to the source, the two HD 8800 series models, the HD 8870 "Oland XT" will up performance per Watt and cost-performance ratios over current HD 7800 series, while maintaining current process technologies.

The Radeon HD 8870, according to numbers provided by the source, could offer performance comparable to today's high-end GPUs. The HD 8870 is clocked at 1050 MHz with 1100 MHz PowerTune Boost frequency; while the HD 8850 is clocked at 925 MHz with 975 MHz boost frequency. The memory of both SKUs is clocked at 6.00 GHz, yielding 192 GB/s memory bandwidth. The chips hence have 256-bit wide memory interfaces.

Key details such as stream processor, TMU, and ROP counts are excluded, though the source mentions that the HD 8870 provides up to 75% higher single-precision floating point and up to 60% higher double-precision floating point performance over its prdecessor, the HD 7870. The texture fill-rate is up by 65%. The Radeon HD 8850 offers similar increases over its predecessor, the HD 7850. Find them tabled above.

 

[magash]

It seems looking at the TDP of the 8850 that just slightly downclocked it might work for a PS4 IF the price is right. Anything in the 8000 series I expect is going to be 2 Tflops or more.

and how much is that going to cost?

 

[Brad Grenz]

The 8850? It says right there in the image: $199. If you mean a PS4 built around it, probably about $399.

 

[magash]

The 8850? It says right there in the image: $199. If you mean a PS4 built around it, probably about $399.

The problem I think is that the TDP is too high other than that it is a very good GPU.

 

[Writer_Head]

But can anything be more powerful than cell chip?

 

[thuway]

Am I reading that right? 4 TERAFLOPS :-O??? 2014 it is!!!

Spoiler

waiting on some knowledgable soul to crush my dreams

 

[Canis lupus]

4 GB is and has been plenty of memory for a full blown PC, so I don't see how any more than that would really help. If anything, memory requirements are coming down with optimization, Windows 8 runs better than 7 on the same hardware.
4 GB of fast memory + 8 GB of SSD cache should be plenty for a console IMHO.

Count in 2GB vram.

 

[Avtomat]

It seems looking at the TDP of the 8850 that just slightly downclocked it might work for a PS4 IF the price is right. Anything in the 8000 series I expect is going to be 2 Tflops or more.

Come on Jeff at this point speculation is just running wild no one knows what plans Sony or MS has, might as well rename this thread Jeff_Rigby's hardware porn section.

Reffering to that chart for the 8870 - AMD are going to increase die size by 27%, transistor count by 21% and clock speed by 5% whilst delivering a 9% drop in TDP at the same process node? Colour me extremely sceptical.

 

[thuway]

Come on Jeff at this point speculation is just running wild no one knows what plans Sony or MS has, might as well rename this thread Jeff_Rigby's hardware porn section.

Reffering to that chart for the 8870 - AMD are going to increase die size by 27%, transistor count by 21% and clock speed by 5% whilst delivering a 9% drop in TDP at the same process node? Colour me extremely sceptical.

I pray Sony is crazy enough to release a 4 teraflop console .

 

[Mr Swine]

I pray Sony is crazy enough to release a 4 teraflop console .

If Sony wants to go bankrupt they will since they want to make money day 1 they will probably go with a cheaper 6000 series AMD card

 

[Sid]

Very interesting developments,next gen is going to be amazing next year!

 

[gaming_noob]

I pray Sony is crazy enough to release a 4 teraflop console .

I want to believe. It would make choosing which console to buy next gen much easier.

 

[amar212]

I pray Sony is crazy enough to release a 4 teraflop console .

 

[Brad Grenz]

The problem I think is that the TDP is too high other than that it is a very good GPU.

That's why Jeff is suggesting you clock it down. At like 800mhz you'd shed a lot of TDP and still have a 2.5TFlop design.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Come on Jeff at this point speculation is just running wild no one knows what plans Sony or MS has, might as well rename this thread Jeff_Rigby's hardware porn section.

Reffering to that chart for the 8870 - AMD are going to increase die size by 27%, transistor count by 21% and clock speed by 5% whilst delivering a 9% drop in TDP at the same process node? Colour me extremely sceptical.

There are three "leaks" that hint at features like a GPU with "Fine Grained Control" (Context switching) with articles from AMD using the exact same terminology for the 8000 series.

Prefetch for the GPU plus the hardware automatically determining whether a CPU task is better run on CPU or GPU is part of the 8000 series GPU.

 

[thuway]

If Sony wants to go bankrupt they will since they want to make money day 1 they will probably go with a cheaper 6000 series AMD card

I disagree.

Sony can wait till 2014 (since MS is already suffering problems in production), release a console designed around the hardcore gamer, and price it conservatively.

Cost to manufacture:
$500

Jaguar X 2
6 GB Unified DDR4
Radeon 8870 performance


Charging $399 +
$50 a year for PS Plus +
Exclusive software at launch (Uncharted or GT)
------------

Within one year the cost to manufacture will drop significantly.