Jeff is DDR4 fast enough to be used as a replacement for GDDR5?
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PS4 Rumors , APU code named 'Liverpool' Radeon HD 7970 GPU Steamroller CPU 16GB Flash
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Jeff is DDR4 fast enough to be used as a replacement for GDDR5?
It will most likely have an underclocked pitcairn and launch next year,still a significant leap over the ps3.
Something tells me its still not enough. The power of 2.5 + teraflops of performance is within hands reach. Sony CANNOT make the mistake again of having ports run worse on their platform. The 8000 series sounds and looks spectacular. They would be stupid to write it off.
Sony should base themselves around the hardcore gamer. It would leapfrog the platform in its early years.
Canis lupus
Member
Rather 8870, cheaper, more power efficient and according to the rumour has GTX680 performance.
Even then, these parts are made for the general public. The customized designs used in consoles are usually beefed up in the right places and slimmed down where not needed. A 3 teraflop console is not out of the picture.
The 8850 TDP isn't outrageous next to the last 'best' rumour, whose GPU would be similar to the 7850 it's compared to.
The problem in suggesting the 8850 as a suggested 8 series 'upgrade' to the rumoured PS4 GPU is the die size.
Unless I've got something wrong, it's not a 27% increase - more like a 62% increase. This is not a die size that is likely to appeal to Sony.
Entertaining a 8870 is even more off-the-wall with the TDP etc.
A '8 series' analog would be something like a 8850 pared down by about a third, maybe. Which, not coincidentally I'm sure, brings it down to around the 2 Tflop mark...which the rumoured PS4 GPU is already getting up close enough to as a 7 series derivative.
Whatever about architecture, the performance envelope is probably more or less set if the die area that can be given to the gpu is capped around 200-220mm^2. Which it probably is.
Then as a gaming company they will cease to exist. Have you not been following the disaster that is the PSVITA? Sony has no room for error. This idea that the PS4 should be designed for 'hardcore' gamers is going to kill PlayStation.
What Sony needs to do is to try as much as possible to see that they launch the PS4 at $300-$350.
Oh please, enough with this exaggerated trash. The PS Vita isn't doing so hot because it is competing against smartphones and iOS devices. The 3DS itself isn't exactly setting the world on fire either. Ironically that came hot off the heels of the most successful portable of all time. The 3DS also has the most insane software lineup ever with a Kingdom Hearts, Resident Evil, AND a Mario exclusive to it within the first year.
Nintendo just announced a system that is marginally more powerful than current gen at $349 and its preorders are lighting up the charts.
Sony can price their console at $399 and offer gamer's the Ferrari of next generation. The first two years of the system will sell out in every area if they price it at $399. Microsoft is going for the under powered Kinnect device, Sony will go for the powerful, no gimmick system.
What Sony needs to worry about is:
*Timing - releasing the system within a three month window of the next Xbox is critical to success.
*Attractive software - you mentioned the Vita, which had a drought. Software should be courted from every which way. First party software needs to constantly stream out every 3-6 months.
*Vita/Gaikai integration - the success of the Vita, Gaikai, and PS4 will be tied together. Make this SHIT work day 1.
Gamer's need options.
Are you saying it would be impossible to use a part with 8870 performance ;_;?
specialguy
Banned
Yup. It's more about heat, power consumption, and die size. Especially since 8k series wont offer huge differences to 7k series. Nothing as big as 7k offered over 6k.
The exception imo might be if Durango is really planning a Cape Verde. The 8k Cape Verde analogue was like 20-30% beefier, which I could see MS going for.
But 20-30% beefier than Cape Verde and 20-30% beefier than Pitcairn are different animals. The former is more manageable.
Ahhh...I see. I gues you are right. Sony should create a $400+ machine with the hopes that the 'hardcore' gamer will rush out and buy one. That sure worked out great for the PSVITA.
Canis lupus
Member
PS2 released at 499.
The hardcore gamer WILL rush out and buy one. Are you ignoring everything I wrote? Forget it, we are going off OT.
Melchiah
Member
PS2 was 499 here in Finland, and presumably in the rest of Europe as well.
Ardenyal
Member
I don't think it would be smart for Sony to rely on an unreleased GPU. They risk running into too many issues.
Also all 3 will be basing their launch around the hardcore. Just look at how even Nintendo is fighting to win them over. The core market are usually the first to adopt a new generation of consoles, so every company will be fighting for the same pie.
Here's the hilarious part. People are ok with spending $349 for a Wii U, but if Sony charges $50 dollars more for a console that is far more powerful; it suddenly becomes a terrible business decision and heretical.
If $399 is too much, wait for the price drop, bub.
Apparently the 8000 series is just shy of launching within a few months. By the time the PS4 launches, the 9000 series will have already been out. I think its conservative to target the 8000 series. I have a nagging suspicion that the DNA of the 9000 series will make it into the GPU of the PS4/720.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Yup, cost is a factor, your logic is flawless. I don't expect more than about 2Tflops and that can be achieved in a smaller area thus cheaper using a 8000 series GPU.
As early on in these next generation discussions, TDP for a console SoC is the upper end limit (8870) and price factors into the final decision with chip size and Yield. IP is usually not a factor for game consoles as it's amortized over 50-100 million chips so cost is all about size and yield.
Thruway: DDR4 is expected to eventually be cheaper than DDR3, requires less drive power for a TDP savings of 40% and is faster than DDR3. GDDR5 is not expected to be cheaper in the long term, that should answer that question.
There is no need for it. Heck, even 3TFLOPS is pushing it from the perspective of what a jump is expected. An HD8850-based GPU is the perfect candidate.
First of all, they aren't going with a card. Second of all, half of what you have on a graphics card doesn't go into a console so the costs are significantly lowered.If Sony wants to go bankrupt they willsince they want to make money day 1 they will probably go with a cheaper 6000 series AMD card
Overstatement, but you should get my point.
I don't think they're comparable...
Brad Grenz
Member
KageMaru said:
I don't know about all three "basing their launch around the hardcore". Nintendo is making some transparent attempts to pander, but only in cases where they don't have to spend very much. And MS seems content to string the hardcore along with Halo, Gears and Forza while they spend most of their efforts on luring casuals with Kinect and media deals. For a long time I've said Sony's best bet was to double down on core gaming, don't waste money on gimmick, just deliver the most powerful box they can at $400 and let the games do the talking.
Same. Is there a big architecture change coming,nor is it more a case of more shaders on a bigger die or on a smaller process? In that case it makes sense to go for the most modern process (allowing for yield expectations etc) and the version you get is based on your due size budget - just fill it up with whatever mix of shaders etc you think you need
REMEMBER CITADEL
Banned
I bet there's a cum stain on your screen.
specialguy
Banned
9000 series will likely be Dec/Jan 12 if AMD sticks to current schedule.
7970 hit late Dec 12, rest of the line trickled out after that.
So 8k series probably Dec 12/Jan 13. That rumor site I posted said Jan 13.
9k= Dec 13/Jan 14
PS4=Nov 13.
8K will likely be the last AMD GPU series launched before PS4/720.
I am buying all three consoles irrespective of hardware decisions. I am never going to miss an ND game, a Halo, or a mainline Zelda title. I just hate this philosophy that all consoles need to be the same thing. I want differentiation. Someone needs to make a Ferrari, someone needs to make the thing I can make my family use, and someone needs to be the underdog.
......and yeah I want the most fucking beast systems ever
.Ehhh, you are right. I still do think that whatever plans the 9k series has in store, it will somehow trickle down into the customized parts for Sony and MS. It only makes sense.
Don't get me wrong Jeff love your speculation really enjoy reading it and the new tech you highlight to me. Only thing I bother reading on this side of the wall.
However stuff like HSA to me is the future of computing going fwd we are at a stage where we can view the CPU and GPU as codependents not distinct entities it is more efficient to code for both split workloads across them and not have 2 independent workloads for each. Anyone not going in this direction is IMO stuck in the past.
So I would expect MS and Sony to take this route Nintendo obviously dances to a different tune. The particular implementation being up to MS and Sony.
I am hoping for a 2014 release on 22nm / 20nm give everyone time to get on this HSA bandwagon too.
This sounds like a bad idea any code which is written for the CPU to execute will take possibly an order of magnitude longer to execute on the GPU and vice versa. The person to determine where the code executes is the programmer and he/she alone.
I just questioned how mature the tech will be by the time the systems launch in 2013, that's basically all I'm saying. A console that ranges from 1.5-2TFLOPs would give us a massive leap over the ps360 and that's all they care about.
Nintendo picked up and is publishing Bayonetta 2, that's something no other publisher was willing to do and hardly a transparent attempt to cater to the core. I had absolutely zero interest in the Wii-U but now I'm patiently waiting for Bayonetta's release date announcement so I know when I can plan to pick one up.
It's also amusing that you people assume that MS wouldn't capitalize on a new generation and release new IPs like every other company does at the dawn of a generation.
And how do you know Sony won't have more than just a traditional controller in the PS4?
All you're doing with posts like these is projecting your view of the industry and it hardly applies to reality (thankfully).
Giant Panda
Member
Thuway, what you are repeatedly asking for is unnecessary and will just result in bankrupting Sony. PS4 2013, 2TFlop, $399 really is the way to go. They also should have a USP that isn't power related, or what you might call a "gimmick".
Canis lupus
Member
Its not about how powerful the PS4 should be, its about if they will lose money per unit sold. If they break-even on launch with PS4 at 499, that won't bankrupt Sony, and we still will have a powerful console. They lost more than $200 on launch PS3s.
Europe.
Europe.
Giant Panda
Member
Anything over 400 is most likely a repeat of Vita.
Canis lupus
Member
In what way?
He means dead on arrival, I guess.
phosphor112
Banned
Pssst...
Look at the one on the right. =P that one is 3 TF, though would likely have to be down clocked slightly. Would still be beautiful though.
Brad Grenz
Member
The hardcore want a significant hardware upgrade. That would cost Nintendo hundreds of millions of dollars. You know what's a way cheaper way to curry hardcore favor? Find a failed, niche, but well like franchise dropped because it was a money losing proposition and "save" it. Total cost: ~$10 million, and suddenly you're "basing your launch around the hardcore". One fucking game!
No, that's throwing the hardcore a bone in hopes they won't notice that your new system has no clear identity and no significant upgrade from the aging systems everyone is losing interest in. It's the very definition of transparent pandering.
I'll believe it when I see it. Their leaked strategy document seemed to suggest hanging their hat on Halo, Forza and Fables again was what they'd do. And since most of their success this generation were carried over from the first Xbox with, you guessed it, Halo, Forza and Fables, I'm not expecting a lot of new 1st part stuff from the 720. It's unlikely the Epics or Bungies of the world will be as willing to sign exclusivity agreements next time around, either.
I don't, I just don't think it will serve them well if they do.
So, no different than what you do? Of course not. Everyone is projecting, except KageMaru!
Ardenyal
Member
Should be a redesigned, more connected, PSN. One time investment that increases the perceived value by a LOT.
REMEMBER CITADEL
Banned
I am buying all three consoles irrespective of hardware decisions. I am never going to miss an ND game, a Halo, or a mainline Zelda title. I just hate this philosophy that all consoles need to be the same thing. I want differentiation. Someone needs to make a Ferrari, someone needs to make the thing I can make my family use, and someone needs to be the underdog.
......and yeah I want the most fucking beast systems ever
I was just trying to say that the idea of a cheap extremely powerful console that is also overwhelmingly successful sounds like someone's wet dream. It doesn't work that way. First of all, not all core gamers fetishize over hardware power, and the presumption that they would all flock to such a system is naive (otherwise we would all be primarily PC gamers). Even if they would - and they wouldn't - the notion that in this day and age a console could thrive only on core gamers' support borders on absurdity. A system which successfully caters to different groups of people is going to be more successful, and with that comes stronger third party support (there are exceptions, as Wii's case shows us, but the situation would be different with Microsoft in Nintendo's place - maybe even with today's Nintendo in 2006's Nintendo's place), which would in turn attract more core gamers and leave the Ferrari system in the cold. In a nutshell, that's the situation we had just a generation ago - GameCube and especially Xbox had the power, but PS2 had the majority of games people wanted.
I'm simplifying it a little, but you get the point. It wouldn't necessarily work, and Sony can't afford such risks now.
jeff_rigby
Banned
I agree for the most part but I'm assuming Gakai figures into this eventually and both the PS4 and Xbox 720 are going to be more than game consoles, this might justify a higher price or different SKUs and for sure more accessories.
Imagine as Sony has said. " handhelds are the future". There is still a need for a local Home Cloud server for the handhelds and we can be seeing distributed processing for office applications or Gaikai serving of PS4 games to a handheld. Then there is Cable tru2way and ATSC 2.0 to be served to handhelds and other TVs and set top boxes in the home.
Xbox 720 is rumored to always be on, why? To always be available to serve. Oh, thought about the need for SSD memory to allow a conventional drive to sleep. It's not just about the active power savings of 1.2 or so watts at an active menu, it's about the inactive savings of 1 watt over 24 hours or a year.
-COOLIO-
The Everyman
[QUOTsaid huway;42263850]Oh please, enough with this exaggerated trash. The PS Vita isn't doing so hot because it is competing against smartphones and iOS devices. The 3DS itself isn't exactly setting the world on fire either. Ironically that came hot off the heels of the most successful portable of all time. The 3DS also has the most insane software lineup ever with a Kingdom Hearts, Resident Evil, AND a Mario exclusive to it within the first year.
Nintendo just announced a system that is marginally more powerful than current gen at $349 and its preorders are lighting up the charts.
Sony can price their console at $399 and offer gamer's the Ferrari of next generation. The first two years of the system will sell out in every area if they price it at $399. Microsoft is going for the under powered Kinnect device, Sony will go for the powerful, no gimmick system.
What Sony needs to worry about is:
*Timing - releasing the system within a three month window of the next Xbox is critical to success.
*Attractive software - you mentioned the Vita, which had a drought. Software should be courted from every which way. First party software needs to constantly stream out every 3-6 months.
*Vita/Gaikai integration - the success of the Vita, Gaikai, and PS4 will be tied together. Make this SHIT work day 1.
Gamer's need options.[/QUOTE]
Well said
Nintendo just announced a system that is marginally more powerful than current gen at $349 and its preorders are lighting up the charts.
Sony can price their console at $399 and offer gamer's the Ferrari of next generation. The first two years of the system will sell out in every area if they price it at $399. Microsoft is going for the under powered Kinnect device, Sony will go for the powerful, no gimmick system.
What Sony needs to worry about is:
*Timing - releasing the system within a three month window of the next Xbox is critical to success.
*Attractive software - you mentioned the Vita, which had a drought. Software should be courted from every which way. First party software needs to constantly stream out every 3-6 months.
*Vita/Gaikai integration - the success of the Vita, Gaikai, and PS4 will be tied together. Make this SHIT work day 1.
Gamer's need options.[/QUOTE]
Well said
REMEMBER CITADEL
Banned
We already know that Lionhead, Rare and Microsoft Vancouver are working on new core IPs for the next system. Crytek's Ryse will probably join them, too.
Why yes they would, independent companies always partner with platform holders, they always have and they always will.
Around $50-60 for gpu chip itself, depending on yields [hopefully they've mastered 28nm by now].
And we dont have any news yet for 89xx series.
But those are toys for PC gamers, not consoles. Nobody knows what will be in them.Basically.
Anyway, in more general terms, Sony will have done this.
Pick a price.
Build system to maximise hardware at that price.
IMO the kind of spec in the original rumour @ 300-400 fits. My only concern is memory competitiveness, and that they put enough memory in there so it's a not a problem vis-a-vis Microsoft's system.
I think they might see an opportunity to couple this to a relatively higher margin (?) HMD business and drive greater volumes therein. For example if Sony makes $100 on $500+ HMDs they could generate potentially billions in profit on a playstation-boosted HMD business over the next cycle. (And more selfishly, I would like strong HMD support with quality HMDs. I think it could give a nice freshness to the generation if the tech is finally up to scratch- a 'gimmick' with core appeal too.)
So now you're dictating what all hardcore gamers want? A real gamer will care about gameplay before graphics. A real gamer will recognize a great game, no matter what system it's on. Why do I have the feeling you don't fall in this group?
Also it's not my fault if you can't see the efforts that Nintendo is making right now. Trust me, I agree that having older current gen ports is not that impressive, but it's still a clear sign that they are pursuing the games many "core" gamers take an interest in. That says something IMO. On top of that, Bayonetta wasn't a failed game IIRC, it made a profit and could be considered a success.
I also like how you just assume that the system isn't much better because there is no obvious upgrade in the current software. It's been explained time and time again that Nintendo cannot keep up with the spec war, they do not have the resources to lose billions at launch like Sony and MS can. Their current strategy of profitable hardware has always been there, but the jump in cost to maintain performance parity with the competition has moved out of their reach unless they wish to go bankrupt. You're expecting too much from the company and I think most people would prefer they stay on their current path, and in business, instead of closing down to cater to people who likely wouldn't buy their console anyways.
Ok so they have been opening studios for the last couple years just to keep pushing out Halo, Forza, and Fable......makes sense! /sarcasm.
You can hang on that outdated document all you want, but there is history, logic, and signs to better support the theory that they (along with just about every other publisher) will release new IPs next gen.
Are you saying that objectively or because you don't care for alternative control methods? I don't care for anything beyond a regular controller myself, but if both MS and Nintendo offer at least an optional SKU with additional options, that may look good on Sony's part.
Don't be stupid. There's a difference between looking at things openly and allowing your obvious preference effect your judgement.
Chuck Norris
Banned
The hardcore gamer will rush out and buy it. You actually believe they won't?
Hardcore gamers will buy PS4 and 720 in droves. There is approximately 120 million + potential buyers in the PS360 market and they won't all just decide to keep their current systems.
This is one of the many reasons why I hate the terms hardcore, casual, etc. Do you think all 120 million of those PS360 owners are what's considered hardcore gamers? Core gamers are the vast minority of this market.
bgassassin
Member
Exactly. The bump from Kinect and Move can't be ignored. Especially with Kinect and 360.
Chuck Norris
Banned
It is pretty stupid. But the point is, powerful systems with regular controllers ended up thriving this generation despite all the hoo ha about Wii and new controllers and so on. The best move Sony could make next gen is sticking to what works, give us a normal controller, stick with the gameplay experiences we love and impress us with technology and innovative networking and UI technologies
I honestly don't think Sony have to do much to be successful next gen. The exact strategy they used with the Vita is viable for PS4, powerful hardware and a decent price without burning the bottom line. Make sure the software sings and get some better marketing people.
I wish them better luck with the PS4 than they've been experiencing with the PSV, that's for sure. I'm not sure sticking to the traditional roots will be enough, with all the emerging markets we're seeing in the entertainment industry, but we'll see. Can't wait to see what they have next E3.
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