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[JustenP88]

All this to resume that even if you feel good wirh your ps4, sony and social media will do everything to make you feel your missing the best experience.

Lol

You guys gonna need a "PS4K" trigger warning on every tweet?

 

[Mister Megative]

I've been a AAA console developer for 15 years, and I seriously can't believe this is happening.

I can't imagine publishers wanting this at all, basically decimating their install base.

Absolutely crazy.

Oh Christ, stop with the banal hyperbole. Decimate? Don't make me laugh.

 

[BossDarkseid]

I've been a AAA console developer for 15 years, and I seriously can't believe this is happening.

I can't imagine publishers wanting this at all, basically decimating their install base.

Absolutely crazy.

but it wouldn't decimate their install base. the tens of millions of PS4s sold so far wouldn't magically stop working and are publishers really going to go for the more expensive to develop for and near infinitely less chance of return option by making the PS4k the main platform?

 

[onQ123]

This is an honest question I have.

Don't you need a 50 inch TV to get the most out of 4k TV watching?

If I'm wrong, fine..

If that is true, then what if you're gaming in a small bedroom where 50 inches would be ridiculous?

If that is the case, then this machine would need to have benefits that have nothing to do with 4k resolutions to make that worthwhile.

If it's twice as powerful or whatever, and a significant portion of the games look much better and move at a better clip, that's the biggest screwing over that any company has done in our industry's history.

4K will allow you to get closer to the screen, so you can enjoy a 43" 4K TV in the same room that you have a 27" 1080P.


in other words you can get closer to 4K TVs so that a 43" will be more like a 65" 1080P once you focus on the screen. that's the reason that TVs are getting bigger because now you can get 80" 4K TVs & view them at the distance that you normally view 50" without it starting to look bad.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Have the publishers not already been informed?

They have.

4K will allow you to get closer to the screen, so you can enjoy a 43" 4K TV in the same room that you have a 27" 1080P.


in other words you can get closer to 4K TVs so that a 43" will be more like a 65" 1080P once you focus on the screen. that's the reason that TVs are getting bigger because now you can get 80" 4K TVs & view them at the distance that you normally view 50" without it starting to look bad.

Yep, and it makes it more of an immersive/entertaining experience with the peripherals doing work I noticed.

 

[Marty Chinn]

You're misunderstanding how this will work.

Is the install base decimated every time a new Apple/Android device or piece of PC hardware is released?

No, but it's fragmented for the developer.

 

[FlyinJ]

You're misunderstanding how this will work.

Is the install base decimated every time a new Apple/Android device or piece of PC hardware is released?

I meant along the lines of- who would actually develop for the new piece of hardware, when you have an established large install base of the original consoles.

And further, who will want to spend development time making "special features" and content in their games for the better hardware, when the install base is so low?

Unless Sony/MS is going to subsidize the development and pay off developers and publishers to do it...

Also, it's going to up the QA and support costs twofold if you have to make sure your game is compliant on four separate platforms instead of just two. (if the XBone.five rumor is true as well)

As for your Apple/Android example, it doesn't take 3-4 years to make a AAA Apple/Android app.

 

[XxRampage07xX]

Really? So they are not going to announce it at E3? That sounds dumb. Everyone and their cats will be waiting for an official statement about it at E3. People will be pissed. Including me btw.

My guess is that they will hold a Playstation Meeting event in 2017 to announce their new console, similar to how they unveiled PS4 back in 2013.

 

[dr_rus]

They don't understand onQ123. This LITERALLY a painting coming to life inside of Dreams. And that's a 2nd generation game on the PS4.

That's also the only game we'll see on PS4 which won't use rasterizer h/w probably. It's unique but it's not the best use of h/w resources available.

 

[Marty Chinn]

I meant along the lines of- who would actually develop for the new piece of hardware, when you have an established large install base of the original consoles.

And further, who will want to spend development time making "special features" and content in their games for the better hardware, when the install base is so low?

Unless Sony is going to subsidize the development and pay off developers and publishers to do it...

Ding! Ding! Ding! I've been trying to get at this so many times, so have other developers. The cost to support this is not free. This will take up time, money and resources for the developer.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

They have.

Do you know that for a fact? FlyinJ says he's a AAA dev and only imagines publishers wouldn't like this. Sounds like we know more than them!

 

[BossDarkseid]

I meant along the lines of- who would actually develop for the new piece of hardware, when you have an established large install base of the original consoles.

And further, who will want to spend development time making "special features" and content in their games for the better hardware, when the install base is so low?

Unless Sony is going to subsidize the development and pay off developers and publishers to do it...

Well...unless they've somehow strong-armed developers and publishers into developing for the ps4k...couldn't they just...not? i mean its not quite the same but its not like the n3ds was overflowing with exclusives once it came out.

 

[geordiemp]

Ding! Ding! Ding! I've been trying to get at this so many times, so have other developers. The cost to support this is not free. This will take up time, money and resources for the developer.

Your a developer ?

I have not read anything from PC developers about the difficulty in making games for 1000 different variants of boxes ? But I agree, ps4k will get parity if they are console devs, PC devs will be able to put in enhanced stuff easily I would think.

 

[Lord Error]

Also, it's going to up the QA and support costs twofold if you have to make sure your game is compliant on four separate platforms instead of just two. (if the XBone.five rumor is true as well)

As for your Apple/Android example, it doesn't take 3-4 years to make a AAA Apple/Android app.

This will be the kind of machine equivalent to two different PC graphic cards from the same manufacturer. You put an High/Ultra profile on one and Medium profile on another. I really doubt it will require anything much more from developers than they already have to do when degrading a settings profile from highest PC settings to a console.

I have not read anything from PC developers about the difficulty in making games for 1000 different variants of boxes ?

That is actually not trivial at all, and I really think supporting PS4K will be a piece of cake compared to debugging different PC hardware configurations.

 

[Marty Chinn]

Your a developer ?

I have not read anything from PC developers about the difficulty in making games for 1000 different variants of boxes ?

Yes, I am a developer. The requirements to release a PC game isn't the same as releasing a console game for starters.

 

[Elios83]

I've been a AAA console developer for 15 years, and I seriously can't believe this is happening.

I can't imagine publishers wanting this at all, basically decimating their install base.

Absolutely crazy.

For publishers this doesn't change a lot and it certainly doesn't reduce the installed base at all, it just adds an other platform to the mix of platfoms they're already supporting. The situation is similar to the ecosytem of products already available in the mobile market.
The only problem of this approach is that there's a high chance that future games won't be optimized as much as they would if other models didn't exist.
Think about a game like God of War 4, if only the current PS4 existed Santa Monica would work hard to realize their vision on the hardware they have available, with the PS4K if something doesn't run well on the current model instead of trying hard to make it work they'll enable it just on the more powerful model.
That definetly sucks for current customers.
But at this stage it's not clear what will be allowed and in which ways developers will be able to use the extra power. It's too early to tell but the possibility must be considered.

 

[wapplew]

Ding! Ding! Ding! I've been trying to get at this so many times, so have other developers. The cost to support this is not free. This will take up time, money and resources for the developer.

I'll wait for the "developers already make games on PC with higher setting argument."

In the perfect world, dev want to make for one configuration with install base as high as possible, as long as possible, it's most cost effective.

 

[DeepEnigma]

No, but it's fragmented for the developer.

Here we go with the 'fragmented' semantics again. I guess the thread will start to head down the same road with the use of such word, like the rest.

PC development is just fine with this. And this will not even be nearly as bad, lol.

I meant along the lines of- who would actually develop for the new piece of hardware, when you have an established large install base of the original consoles.

And further, who will want to spend development time making "special features" and content in their games for the better hardware, when the install base is so low?

Unless Sony/MS is going to subsidize the development and pay off developers and publishers to do it...

Also, it's going to up the QA and support costs twofold if you have to make sure your game is compliant on four separate platforms instead of just two. (if the XBone.five rumor is true as well)

As for your Apple/Android example, it doesn't take 3-4 years to make a AAA Apple/Android app.

Developers have been doing just fine on the PC for over 20 years now. Who is subsidizing them to have a myriad of scalability for the 1% Titan runners with 4K support?

If the SDK has the tools to make it easier, which it more than likely will, why are one's complaining. If the market dictates the demand, you bet your ass your Publishers will be trickling down that in your work load.

Do you know that for a fact? FlyinJ says he's a AAA dev and only imagines publishers wouldn't like this. Sounds like we know more than them!

I am going to assume Sony is not going to brief retail before they know developers are on board. The original Kotaku article was from developers on the inside, and did it not say they were on board?

This will be the kind of machine equivalent to two different PC graphic cards from the same manufacturer. You put an High/Ultra profile on one and Medium profile on another. I really doubt it will require anything much more from developers than they already have to do when degrading a settings profile from highest PC settings to a console.


That is actually not trivial at all, and I really think supporting PS4K will be a piece of cake compared to debugging different PC hardware configurations.

.

 

[geordiemp]

Yes, I am a developer. The requirements to release a PC game isn't the same as releasing a console game for starters.

I was agreeing with you if your a console developer, psk4 will get parity hate in digital foundry threads...I am sure you are looking forward to it....

Accomplished PC devs is a different story, I would think it would be quite easy for them I would assume.

 

[onQ123]

I've been a AAA console developer for 15 years, and I seriously can't believe this is happening.

I can't imagine publishers wanting this at all, basically decimating their install base.

Absolutely crazy.

You're a dev but don't have the understanding to know that this isn't decimating their install base?

it's still a PS4

 

[OuterLimits]

I think it will be fine as long as we don't start having Hyrule Warriors or God forbid Shadow of Mordor last gen type situations on the original PS4.

Usually in a generation we get some of the best games late in the gen. I imagine we will this time as well. However, you will need to spend another $400-500 to enjoy it to the fullest this time around. Kind of makes the original PS3 price seem like a bargain, especially if it survived the entire generation.

 

[BossDarkseid]

For publishers this doesn't change a lot and it certainly doesn't reduce the installed base at all, it just adds an other platform to the mix of platfoms they're already supporting. The situation is similar to the ecosytem of products already available in the mobile market.
The only problem of this approach is that there's a high chance that future games won't be optimized as much as they would if other models didn't exist.
Think about a game like God of War 4, if only the current PS4 existed Santa Monica would work hard to realize their vision on the hardware they have available, with the PS4K if something doesn't run well on the current model instead of trying hard to make it work they'll enable it just on the more powerful model.
That definetly sucks for current customers.
But at this stage it's not clear what will be allowed and in which ways developers will be able to use the extra power. It's too early to tell but the possibility must be considered.

but wouldn't optimization on the 4k benefit the pS4? i mean i guess i'm assuming they'd keep the same architecture in a way and system so any techniques could theoretically be transferred to the Ps4?

 

[Lrrr]

If the PS4K is really coming, Sony should take the opportunity and upgrade their USB and internal wifi. Getting those up to industry standard speeds should be major priorities.

 

[Dreadnought]

What people are missing with the "but pc is just fine!" Argument is that pc users can adjust settings to make the game run very well for them. But on console the game has to be specifically optimized so everyone gets the same experience and doesn't have to mess with graphical settings. That's why consoles are plug in and play and why it would split development because now they have to optimize for two different consoles, they can't just lower it to medium settings and be done.

 

[wapplew]

Why would publisher like the idea? PS4K won't make the oeverall PS4 install base growth 2 fold.
They make games for same amount of customers with or without PS4K but require more work.

 

[SneakyStephan]

Her belief is that they wont even announce until after the holiday to try to get rid of as many OG units as possible during the holiday without the new sku interfering with the PSVR and OG sku sales.

Now this would be a dick move.

People deserve to know a new sku is coming so they can make an informed decision, not be tricked into buying something they wouldn't otherwise buy.

 

[geordiemp]

What people are missing with the "but pc is just fine!" Argument is that pc users can adjust settings to make the game run very well for them. But on console the game has to be specifically optimized so everyone gets the same experience and doesn't have to mess with graphical settings. That's why consoles are plug in and play and why it would split development because now they have to optimize for two different consoles, they can't just lower it to medium settings and be done.

I would imagine they have a hidden settings adjustment and the dev decides what your getting on console. On PC the user can choose himself.

We have had a few console games on Ps4 where you could choose to lock at 30 or not, so it has been done before a few times.

 

[RK128]

If the PS4K is really coming, Sony should take the opportunity and upgrade their USB and internal wifi. Getting those up to industry standard speeds should be major priorities.

If anything, this would be the best reason for OG users to upgrade, notably so if they are using PS Now and Remote Play. Things I picture popping up in Slim upgrades that people have been cool with for decades .

 

[DeepEnigma]

What people are missing with the "but pc is just fine!" Argument is that pc users can adjust settings to make the game run very well for them. But on console the game has to be specifically optimized so everyone gets the same experience and doesn't have to mess with graphical settings. That's why consoles are plug in and play and why it would split development because now they have to optimize for two different consoles, they can't just lower it to medium settings and be done.

A lot of PC games come with preset profiles as well that developers have been putting in, forever now. It is not much different to put those profiles based on common rigs out there, in fact much easier with only two boxes to do it on.

I would imagine they have a hidden settings adjustment and the dev decides what your getting on console. On PC the user can choose himself.

We have had a few console games on Ps4 where you could choose to lock at 30 or not, so it has been done before a few times.

As well as the ability to ask turn on/off certain PP effects.

 

[jelly]

If the PS4K is really coming, Sony should take the opportunity and upgrade their USB and internal wifi. Getting those up to industry standard speeds should be major priorities.

But think of the cents they could save. I would not be surprised if they stuck with the old.

 

[Prisoner KSC2-303]

But PSVR doesn't NEED PS4K to be the complete experience. Were you not around during GDC?

The PS4 is perfectly fine to use for PSVR.

I never said it did. I was replying as to why some may feel it'd be poor form to wait until PSVR is out before releasing info about PS4k, that's all.

The fact that the OP states there'll be significant benefits for key PSVR titles is probably what's feeding that feeling. Either way, we really don't know how well it'll perform, or if the PS4 VR experience will be fine or feel distinctly poorer in comparison to the PS4k, but leaks like this will create doubt over the feasibility of the vanilla PS4 to handle VR beyond the short term.

 

[Insane Metal]

Oh man... this absolutely look like a painting coming to life. This game is so absurdly awesome.

 

[Sidewinder]

Why?

I can understand the "giving us options", "you don't have to buy it" etc. arguments for the PS4.5.

But releasing a 500$ device in October, followed by another 500$ device some mere months later, that will probably make the first one performing far better, without saying a word to your customers is just asinine, it's a cash grab.

Yes of course it makes economical sense, but that doesn't mean it's the right way to do it. They'd lose much of the goodwill they built up with the no-DRM, no tvtv, games first etc. PR.

 

[Hexa]

Why would publisher like the idea? PS4K won't make the oeverall PS4 install base growth 2 fold.
They make games for same amount of customers with or without PS4K but require more work.

 

[Moneal]

Why would publisher like the idea? PS4K won't make the oeverall PS4 install base growth 2 fold.
They make games for same amount of customers with or without PS4K but require more work.

it is more of a future proof thing for them. When the PS5 comes out support drops for the PS4, but they keep support for the PS4K. It allows them to push things for a new console while not having to create a new engine every console generation.

Previously EA and many others did a complete reboot of their engines. Just look at EAs sports games, Madden, NHL, and others basically start from scratch each gen. This is a very expensive venture for them, and harmful for us as gamers. I can not tell you how many times I have heard complaints of Madden/NCAA losing features every time a new console comes out.

Moving to an iterative console upgrade path, which keeps similar architecture, saves pubs and devs money and is less risky for them. Thats why pubs and devs would be on board with this.

 

[RK128]

The Pros of the PS4K (same OS, same 'core' foundation, likely same development kit, ect) will help developers in the future more likely then hinder them I assume .

As long as games run well on OG PS4, things will be fine, but we have to wait until E3 before many of us can say that with confidence. Sony won't mess with 40+ Million PS4 users just to sell new hardware, I think so at least.

 

[GamerMax73]

Don't you need a 50 inch TV to get the most out of 4k TV watching?

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

I am going to assume Sony is not going to brief retail before they know developers are on board. The original Kotaku article was from developers on the inside, and did it not say they were on board?

And that is exactly why I think this all odd. Retail (OP) seem to have been given nearly all the details a 7-12 months in advance and devs (third party at least) and a few gaming Journos have heard vague whispers at best.

Name another time that has been the case? Maybe being a "divisive" iteration means Sony going about things in a different way?

 

[BossDarkseid]

I feel like on one hand people should make a noise - i mean that whole... no drm thing got Sony's attention 3 years ago didn't it? - but also until they actually come out and announce it, whatever form it'll take there's not a whole lot to go on. Not telling publishers etc about it feels absolutely and utterly bizarre considering how early Cerny started talking to devs and pubs about the PS4 and iirc there was something about him starting research for a next console sometime last year...

Like unless it's a slightly more powerful - because in effect that's what it is, it's not close to a new generation or even a .5 iteration - that has some of the VR stuff built in...it's not really going to affect most people unless VR becomes some huge mega-hit and the new normal. For those interested in PS VR it would be a dick move to only talk about it post release, but I suppose it could always be part of the second generation tech for PS VR.

I mean we know it'll come, it's like how Apple probably have...like the next few years of iPhone designs and OS versions in development.

 

[wapplew]

A lot of PC games come with preset profiles as well that developers have been putting in, forever now. It is not much different to put those profiles based on common rigs out there, in fact much easier with only two boxes to do it on.

But they have to spend time to test it.
A preset could work on one stage but heavily drop frame on another, then they need to find out what cost the drop and tweak it from start to finish.
If a dev just don't care and we'll get bad port or they just lower the setting well under what the machine capable of and we get wasted power.

 

[d9b]

The Pros of the PS4K (same OS, same 'core' foundation, likely same development kit, ect) will help developers in the future more likely then hinder them I assume .

I agree.

 

[dose]

I meant along the lines of- who would actually develop for the new piece of hardware, when you have an established large install base of the original consoles.

And further, who will want to spend development time making "special features" and content in their games for the better hardware, when the install base is so low?

Unless Sony/MS is going to subsidize the development and pay off developers and publishers to do it...

Also, it's going to up the QA and support costs twofold if you have to make sure your game is compliant on four separate platforms instead of just two. (if the XBone.five rumor is true as well)

As for your Apple/Android example, it doesn't take 3-4 years to make a AAA Apple/Android app.

Finally some sense in this thread! As a dev I've been saying the same thing. I don't think he majority in this thread understand the extra work involved.
Also, as dev time can take 3-4 years what spec do developers target?

 

[DeepEnigma]

it is more of a future proof thing for them. When the PS5 comes out support drops for the PS4, but they keep support for the PS4K. It allows them to push things for a new console while not having to create a new engine every console generation.

Previously EA and many others did a complete reboot of their engines. Just look at EAs sports games, Madden, NHL, and others basically start from scratch each gen. This is a very expensive venture for them, and harmful for us as gamers. I can not tell you how many times I have heard complaints of Madden/NCAA losing features every time a new console comes out.

Moving to an iterative console upgrade path, which keeps similar architecture, saves pubs and devs money and is less risky for them. Thats why pubs and devs would be on board with this.

This is something EA and other large publishers have been echoing for years. Every new generation reboot is very risky each time, thus why you see some flocking to the mobile model (i.e. #FuckKonami).

The Pros of the PS4K (same OS, same 'core' foundation, likely same development kit, ect) will help developers in the future more likely then hinder them I assume .

As long as games run well on OG PS4, things will be fine, but we have to wait until E3 before many of us can say that with confidence. Sony won't mess with 40+ Million PS4 users just to sell new hardware, I think so at least.

Agreed.

 

[wapplew]

Again, a 5 years iteration could achieve all that, it doesn't have to be 3 years or less.

 

[GHG]

But they have to spend time to test it.
A preset could work on one stage but heavily drop frame on another, then they need to find out what cost the drop and tweak it from start to finish.
If a dev just don't care and we'll get bad port or they just lower the setting well under what the machine capable of and we get wasted power.

You just described exactly what is happening on consoles already.

 

[QaaQer]

are you on mobile or something?

I think I'm gonna use that as a general put down/confusion response. I really like it.

 

[The Artisan]

I think I'm gonna use that as a general put down/confusion response. I really like it.

lol, I was genuinely asking though. because, if you're gonna avatar quote someone, why not just do it? why write it out as a text? unless you're on mobile and it's difficult

 

[Hexa]

Again, a 5 years iteration could achieve all that, it doesn't have to be 3 years or less.

Technology stagnated too fast for that.

 

[wapplew]

You just described exactly what is happening on consoles already.

Yes, more hardware profile will make it worst don't you think?

 

[RK128]

it is more of a future proof thing for them. When the PS5 comes out support drops for the PS4, but they keep support for the PS4K. It allows them to push things for a new console while not having to create a new engine every console generation.

Previously EA and many others did a complete reboot of their engines. Just look at EAs sports games, Madden, NHL, and others basically start from scratch each gen. This is a very expensive venture for them, and harmful for us as gamers. I can not tell you how many times I have heard complaints of Madden/NCAA losing features every time a new console comes out.

Moving to an iterative console upgrade path, which keeps similar architecture, saves pubs and devs money and is less risky for them. Thats why pubs and devs would be on board with this.

I think this makes a lot of sense.

Firstly, having a strong base and OS to work with instead of re-building things from scratch will save money in the long term for development studios.

Secondly, it will cost publishers/developers less money for developing new engines and the like (as they can just use what they made in the past + some upgrades here and there).

Lastly, it allows them to carry over past assets and work with little issue. So for sports games, you can have even larger team rosters and stuff by re-using assets from say the newest Maden at the time.