Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
A smart business wants repeated loyal customers not just reeling in suckers, that is a bad business model.
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PS4K information (~2x GPU power w/ clock+, new CPU, price, tent. Q1 2017)
- Thread starter OsirisBlack
- Start date
A smart business wants repeated loyal customers not just reeling in suckers, that is a bad business model.
Marty Chinn
Member
This is true. I'm just saying most people in don't care about the reality of 4K. You could probably show them a PS4 hooked up to a 1080P TV and tell them everything was 4K and they would be blown away.
Bananajama
Banned
4K is easy to market & it's easy to see how clear it is, So when I show someone my 4K TV or they see one somewhere else or hear someone talking about it it's easy for them to go out looking for a 4K TV.
Sidewinder
Member
Well we don't really know for sure yet, but yes probably.
StrongBlackVine
Banned
Legally blind people? I'm curious to know why a supposed developer is so against this idea? You must really think it is going to impact you in a negative way.
Marty Chinn
Member
I'm not against the idea; but a lot of people really don't care. There comes a point where it's good enough and there is diminishing returns. It's the same reason the masses don't care as much about 60 fps and developers focus on overall graphics than frame rate. Your hard core techie or gamer cares about these things but not the mass consumer. If people really cared, people would have stopped buying DVDs in favor of Blu Ray.
4k gaming as games playing at native 4k or just upscaled to 4k? If you are reffering to the former, then you need to wake up because it's not going to happen.
If it's the latter, then your 4k TV already has internal upscaler and I believe it's going to be just as good as the PS4K upscaler.
StrongBlackVine
Banned
This would be for the hardcore though. The people that don't care can buy the cheaper PS4.0
Marty Chinn
Member
Did you not follow the chain of discussion? I was responding to someone stating that they'll see a PS4K hooked up to a 4K TV and they'll be wowed stating the 4K resolution is going to be huge. I replied with most people don't care/won't notice.
Spacecowboy77
Member
If true, this is going to piss off a lot of people...
Most of my friends bought a console in late 2015. Releasing a brand new, much better model after like an year and a half is crazy to imagine.
Most of my friends bought a console in late 2015. Releasing a brand new, much better model after like an year and a half is crazy to imagine.
StrongBlackVine
Banned
Change always upsets some people.
Iztok Mravlja
Banned
The same people will buy the same thing (8K or whatever) for the same reasons, again.
But yeah, you're right. I personally don't think this PS4k thing is a good idea, but I obviously don't know whatever it is they seem to know.
Iztok Mravlja
Banned
Actually, so long as the perceived value is at or more than asking price, the "why" is irrelevant in the sense that it varies wildly, anyway. If they feel the upscaled 4k is worth what it says on the sticker, you've got the "why" covered (intentionally or as something emergent).
Obviously being able to aniticipate and position your product is key, still.
That's the real #1, might've been a different curriculum, I have no idea. Didn't go to business school, only had classes.
Marty Chinn
Member
We shouldn't assume Sony always knows what's best either. The Vita was poorly released and the PlayStation TV was a complete blunder. The PlayStation TV alone could have been so much more but was completely wasted.
SaucyJack
Member
1. It'll be at least 3 years after PS4 launch before this rumoured PS4K releases. When you or your mates bought is irrelevant.
2. If the details in the OP are correct your PS4 will still run all PS4 games for the rest of the generation.
3. If you don't have a 4k TV set to take advantage of many of the rumoured features is it really the case that the rumoured new model is "much better"?
Spacecowboy77
Member
From the OP-
"the GPU is twice as powerful as standard PS4 and much faster. " and "were discussing a better CPU"
That's a much better model in my book. even if you don't have a 4k TV, you will get a hefty performance boost in all games
Dictator93
Member
Big change? 2x GPU is not too big honestly. If you just increase something linearily in sampling for your renderer you end up spending twice as many cycles. Gfx are expensive! FOr an example of this, just load up something like Doom 33 BFG and mess around with the motion blur sampling.
I honestly do not know as I am a bit baffled myself at the rumours surrounding this supposed PS4K. It won't be possible to do real 4K on it (I find real 4K ridiculously hard on a heavily OC'd Titan X even), and if it has a similar memory subsystem or CPU, then it will rule out increasing resolution or increasing framerate. But! With increased shading power could come better pixel quality and better effects quality.
I think we need way more information before we start making assumptions about dual GPU set ups, general performance trends, or special hardware upscalers even (which is just an upscaler btw!). But beyond what is reasonable to guess at, I personally fail to see the point of special hardware upscalers in modern GPUs. The best results for upscaling we have seen this gen have been done in software using their own per-game specific method. So the assumption that there could and should be some sort of magic bullet upscaler for all game engines and rendering types seems silly IMO. Ryse had its own, all the current reconstruction and reprojection games have had their own, and those that used hardware upscaling tended to be lambasted for their IQ more than the others.
Also, if the hardware upscaler existed and Sony implemented a policy on how it was to be used and how your engine was to plug into it... do you think it would even be respected? Do you guys remember the MS policy for minimum 4xMSAA on xbox 360?
I really really think we are going to see prettier pixels @ 1080p, as the desktop 7970 shows us (which is what the PS4K would be basically GPU-wise), it is pretty darn good at doing console games with prettier pixels.
SaucyJack
Member
Has been discussed at length, 2x GPU isn't a generation leap and doesn't make your PS4 any less powerful.
We have no idea what this extra power will mean in practice. Best guess seems to be a PS4 version with "High" settings and a PS4K version with "Very High" settings. But only IF the dev bothers to optimise.
PS4s extra power over XBO is frequently underutilised, no reason to believe PS4K v PS4 wouldn't be the same.
If a better CPU allows for open world experiences at 60fps the PS4K would be well worth it.
JumPeRJumPzZ
Banned
You get a higher Framerate and Resolution in a lot of titles... i dont see that as underutilised
wapplew
Member
I wouldn't say frequently underutilised, first party is taking advantages of the power at very least.
The idea of ND sitting on that 2x the GPU power, not going to fully utilize, bugs me a lot.
SaucyJack
Member
So 1st party games we'll maybe see a high vs ultra settings difference.
But most games are 3rd party and I posit that the power difference will be frequently underutilised as it frequently is underutilised on PS4 v XBO today.
Are there really still people out there believing that having both PS4 and PS4K on the market is something that will make developers take full advantage of the possibilities of either console?
I mean havent people already seen what is happening with PC and consoles all these years?? You really think 95% of the games are taking full advantage of PC capabilities?
Hint: No.
Why: Consoles.
Reason why: Multiplatform devs will always factor in the lesser hardware when designing their games.
I mean havent people already seen what is happening with PC and consoles all these years?? You really think 95% of the games are taking full advantage of PC capabilities?
Hint: No.
Why: Consoles.
Reason why: Multiplatform devs will always factor in the lesser hardware when designing their games.
The 4k to be fully taken advantage of in terms of fidelity but guaranteed 1080p output and steady framerates would be nice, everything else is just nice bonus. It doesn't need to be fully utilized to be a tangible benefit.
What do people on pc do if they have more power? They raise the bars in the graphics menu and have the advantage of that power. That is what happens with PS4k over PS4 if the GPU is more meaty.
StrongBlackVine
Banned
More stable framerate, better AA methods and more demanding effects being turned on would be fine by me. Hopefully faster loads times as well.
Yes they do, but by doing that they dedicate all the extra power for resolution instead of harnessing it for higher graphical fidelity.
Plus devs dont really give a crap (very few exceptions) about PCs extremely more powerful capabilities and they throw down sloppy ports hoping that the extra hardware will mask their development shortcommings, instead of trully investing in taking true advantage of the hardware.
Thats how you get Quantum Break, Arkham Knight etc shit jobs.
Just because there are 2 or 3 bad games doesn't mean the whole market is fucked.
You can nearly play all multiplat games with 60fps+, higher res and more graphical fidelity while the console versions run at 30fps.
PC versions are way better in over 90% of the cases even without special optimisations.
Nostremitus
Member
Yeah, you must be right. The PS4K isn't a midcycle upgrade and PSVR isn't an addon to an existing game console that adds the "next big thing." In the case of Sega,that was CDs, with PS4 it's 4K and VR. Not sure why I was vaguely reminded of it.
I never said it was exactly like it, the entire industry saw what that did to Sega. Sony is taking a different approach to the same concept.
you dont get it...
Who was waiting for the truly "next gen" games to arrive? When did the next generation start?
Answer: When PS4 and XB1 were released on the market. Thats when devs shifted to next gen development.
Now think about the PC for a moment. PC was already able to start with next gen years before PS4 and XB1 were released.
And instead... developers did not create next gen games. Why? Because their games had to run on PS360 hardware.
That is why Assassins Creed 3 looked NOTHING like Assassins Creed Unity. PC had the potential already for graphics like Assassins Creed Unity back when Assassins Creed 3 was released. Instead they got 60 fps and 1080p for a game that was hardly doing any justice to the hardware they had under their hood.
Both games are very different. QB is de facto almost impossible to fix, whereas after a few patches, Arkham Knight on PC is the better version over consoles by a large margin.
Both are examples of rushed day 1 port, I agree.
There is really no reason to make a game for PC that only 3% of the people can play. Look at the Steam hardware survey and you will see, that you have to build games for the midrange PC, too. You are just talking about PC potential and consoles but the reality is, that it makes no sense to look that binary at that matter.
How big was the userbase on PC at the time Assassins Creeed 3 came out that could handle Unity? Pretty small.
The thing is, even without a leap in generation the graphical fidelity will be much better because we're dealing with so many compromises on even the PS4 nowadays. Low shadow resolutions, aggressive lods, bad or no AA and so on. These things can be improved with more meat on the machine. And that is something I want to see improved before making the games even bigger and more "next-gen".
But that is something that is already offered on the PC side of things. If you are worried so much about those things, why did you invest in a console to begin with? Dont misunderstand me, I am not trying to be a douche here.
I am only saying that releasing console hardware upgrades is bridging the gap between consoles and PCs to the point were, PC starts to become way more attractive as a means to play.
I am a console gamer because I know that I dont have to check minimum requirements, I dont have to deal with hardware upgrades for the forceable future etc.
If they take that away from me, and split the community in 2, then why not go for the ultimate version, the PC one? I dont like the fact that with PS4K, there are going to be console "master race" and console "peasants" to use this joke as a means to make my point.
Look at what Naughty Dog has managed to do with PS4 and Uncharted 4... do you really care what kind of hardware this runs? Any PC gamer with some sense will tell you that Uncharted 4 looks gorgeous.
Now imagine if Uncharted 5 has to be released both to PS4 and PS4K... both versions will not take full advantage of their potential the way PS4 does with U4 now.
Remember what happened at the start of this generation with games coming out both on PS3 and PS4... we will be in a constant "cross gen phase".
All in all, I think a lot of the extra bells and whistles of PS4K will just go to waste.
Uhm don't want to disappoint you but I have a way more powerful rig than the PS4 AND consoles at home.
You are just ignoring the facts and blabbering that power will go to waste when we have enough games on consoles that struggle to display the content of the games at steady 30fps @ 1080p. And even for that they need to use tricks like low lod, bad mesh resolution, shadow resolution etcpp.
If you add more anti aliasing, improve the shadows, add ambient occlusion or higher DoF resolution etcpp there is still enough room to improve the visual fidelity. You just ignore that and that is how you can use the increased performance.
blastprocessor
The Amiga Brotherhood
You also get games running at the same resolution on both platforms with only subtle differences on PS4.
A better example would be Sleeping Dogs, the PC version was released last gen and looks way above the console version.
As a fact, performance improves linearly on PC, so there is never this wow factor like on console where you see big differences between gens. But this does not change that the PC is always increasing its overall quality taking into account lower and higher specs into account.
Uhm don't want to disappoint you but I have a way more powerful rig than the PS4 AND consoles at home.
You are just ignoring the facts and blabbering that power will go to waste when we have enough games on consoles that struggle to display the content of the games at steady 30fps @ 1080p. And even for that they need to use tricks like low lod, bad mesh resolution, shadow resolution etcpp.
If you add more anti aliasing, improve the shadows, add ambient occlusion or higher DoF resolution etcpp there is still enough room to improve the visual fidelity. You just ignore that and that is how you can use the increased performance.
There is a reason why the console market is the way it is and why it is successful as it is.
There is nothing "blabbering" about that. It is a fact.
Another fact is that all attempts at providing console hardware upgrades were met with failure in the past.
My point is that consoles are what they are and PCs are what they are. Bridging the gap between them, in my point of view makes the console's existence pointless.
I'd rather upgrade a PC every 2 years with the parts that I want, instead of having to upgrade a console. It is an absurd logic based on the idea that I have about console gaming.
I think you could already argue that the differences currently are quite subtle.
I just imagine that most of this is going to go towards giving core games some kind of VR support. We saw Sony shoehorn in Move and 3D support into Various 1st party titles, but they cannot do this on PS4 without the Grunt to back it up
wapplew
Member
Uhm don't want to disappoint you but I have a way more powerful rig than the PS4 AND consoles at home.
You are just ignoring the facts and blabbering that power will go to waste when we have enough games on consoles that struggle to display the content of the games at steady 30fps @ 1080p. And even for that they need to use tricks like low lod, bad mesh resolution, shadow resolution etcpp.
If you add more anti aliasing, improve the shadows, add ambient occlusion or higher DoF resolution etcpp there is still enough room to improve the visual fidelity. You just ignore that and that is how you can use the increased performance.
Maybe some of us think AA, shadows, DOF, res, frames are not the improvement we looking forward when we get extra power.
I'm thinking about Texture map to normal map to PBR or bake lighting to GI that kind of jump.
Which is why those people can stick with the PS4.
And those will be the people that EA, Ubisoft and many other developers will treat as 2nd rate customers, shoving down their throat half assed ports.
Already these devs dont seem to care much about proper optimization can you imagine what will happen when they have the excuse of a definitive version in the name of PS4K?
It will be savage.
Will drop this here as well:
What exactly does this show?
family_guy
Member
So you can either enjoy the games in the same manner you've been enjoying them thus far without upgrading, or sell/trade-in your system to get a better experience. It's great having options, right?
Sony are not stupid (usually)
I think if this is real all the extra power will do is to upscale games to 4k and to give a 4k output to the 4K streaming service Sony just launched. Netflix and Amazon Video 4k are a happy coincidence.
The marketing - got a Sony 4K TV? Here's the best way to get lots of 4k content for your new TV.
They will not say if you buy it there will be some new games that run on both but look better on the new one.
There will be no upgrade path to trade in your original PS4.
Edit: They will probably put the PSVR breakout box gibbons inside as well - it becomes the PS4K + VR
I think if this is real all the extra power will do is to upscale games to 4k and to give a 4k output to the 4K streaming service Sony just launched. Netflix and Amazon Video 4k are a happy coincidence.
The marketing - got a Sony 4K TV? Here's the best way to get lots of 4k content for your new TV.
They will not say if you buy it there will be some new games that run on both but look better on the new one.
There will be no upgrade path to trade in your original PS4.
Edit: They will probably put the PSVR breakout box gibbons inside as well - it becomes the PS4K + VR
Just imagine Just Cause 4 on ps4. Ugh. I mean I can't believe yet Just Cause 3 runs like this.And those will be the people that EA, Ubisoft and many other developers will treat as 2nd rate customers, shoving down their throat half assed ports.
Already these devs dont seem to care much about proper optimization can you imagine what will happen when they have the excuse of a definitive version in the name of PS4K?
It will be savage.