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Should Halo 6 keep or remove sprinting?

Rodelero

Member
ITT: people who didn't actually play Halo 5 or stick with it past the first month.

I'm not sure this argument works as well in your favour as you think. As much as Halo 5 is touted by many as being the best Halo multiplayer since 3, 2, or ever, dependent on the claimant, it hasn't lead to much in the way of popularity. A lot of people stopped playing quite quickly - for a reason.

The last time I looked, Halo 5 is behind Battlefield, Battlefront, Overwatch, Rainbow Six and three Call of Duty games in the Xbox Most Played lists. If this is how popular Halo is when the mechanics are perfected, as some suggest, the franchise is absolutely screwed. Halo 3 fought tooth and nail for the #1 spot with Call of Duty. Halo 5 is behind seven first person shooters and a horde of titles from other genres, including Bungie's new game, Destiny. Don't forget, either, that Halo is the only exclusive game in that list. It has an inherent advantage because all of its fanbase is concentrated in one place - it's still getting obliterated.

Now, admittedly, the gameplay mechanics aren't necessarily the reason for its lack of popularity, but I don't think they help. Halo 5 may feel quite distinct from Call of Duty in many respects, but the Spartan Abilities are clearly inspired by Titanfall, Advanced Warfare and Destiny, and the addition of ADS (even if it is more subtle than a typical implementation) goes further in that direction. The hyper tight focus on infantry only arena matches is yet another element I'd attribute to Call of Duty - and it has destroyed the thing that, for me, made Halo Halo: well balanced infantry v infantry, vehicle v vehicle, and infantry v vehicle gameplay. The lazy Big Team Battle and gross Warzone modes do nothing to help.

Halo 5 still suffers from copying other popular FPSs, just like Halo 4... it just copies a slightly different subset of features. It doesn't feel unique, and it doesn't feel fresh. It's gameplay is decent, but it's not a revelation, and certainly not enough to make up for the mess 343 have made with their playlists and the dreadful quality/quantity/variety of maps.
 

Flipyap

Member
Keep. I thing it is implemented well with the shield penalty.
But it's not implemented well with the shooting guns penalty, same goes for every other action except, I guess, melee and crouching. Though Spartan Charge feels flimsy and unreliable in addition to being terribly unbalanced, so maybe sliding is the only well-implemented sprint action (too bad I never slide...).
Movement abilities that cripple your controls and ironically limit your mobility are an awful fit for shooters where movement is supposed to matter. They're a much better fit for "realistic" or disempowerment fantasy games like S.T.A.L.K.E.R. o.r. F.a.r. C.r. ... er, or Far Cry 2.
Getting out of combat in Halo used to be about zig-zagging through projectiles while also using your primary abilities to kill or distract your pursuers, it felt exciting and heroic in ways sprinting in a straight line never will.
 

MCD

Junior Member
Multi is really hardcore so won't talk about it.

For campaign if they are gonna do squad team again instead of playing as the Chief only then please give each one unique abilities. Sprint for one, other razor sharp sniper skill, another with dodge etc.

I mean...these Spartans have nothing special. At all.
 
I'm not sure this argument works as well in your favour as you think. As much as Halo 5 is touted by many as being the best Halo multiplayer since 3, 2, or ever, dependent on the claimant, it hasn't lead to much in the way of popularity. A lot of people stopped playing quite quickly - for a reason.

Your argument implies sprint is the sole reason Halo 5's numbers dropped after release, which isn't the case. Halo 5's initial focus lacked basic staples of the Halo franchise, ranging from modes like Oddball and King of the Hill to series staples like Big Team Battle and social playlists. Warzone is the most popular aspect of the game, but I hardly consider it more than a distraction from Arena.

Furthermore, Halo 5 has never really addressed consistent issues in the Arena playlist, like smurf accounts and chronic quitters (and don't say putting a penalty timer on quitters is going to stop ragequitting; people who quit are going to quit regardless, and the timer just ensures they don't come back).

I enjoy Halo 5 quite a bit, but when it comes to the game proper, it was feature-barren at launch and took ages to come into its own. If it launched as it is right now, it'd be lauded for its feature-rich gameplay and potential for growth. As it is right now, it's a great game that is in need of some attention to fix some issues I feel have been in the game since launch.

Now, admittedly, the gameplay mechanics aren't necessarily the reason for its lack of popularity, but I don't think they help. Halo 5 may feel quite distinct from Call of Duty in many respects, but the Spartan Abilities are clearly inspired by Titanfall, Advanced Warfare and Destiny, and the addition of ADS (even if it is more subtle than a typical implementation) goes further in that direction. The hyper tight focus on infantry only arena matches is yet another element I'd attribute to Call of Duty - and it has destroyed the thing that, for me, made Halo Halo: well balanced infantry v infantry, vehicle v vehicle, and infantry v vehicle gameplay. The lazy Big Team Battle and gross Warzone modes do nothing to help.

Halo 5 was in development long before any of those games released. The beta was playable back in 2014, and we knew what was coming as early as Summer of that year--just three months or so months after Titanfall's release, and just barely after Advanced Warfare's multiplayer was revealed, and certainly long before anyone had their hands on Destiny. People say Halo 5 copied those games, but the reality is those games were all developed currently, and their similarities were more due to trends in the games industry pushing towards unique methods of movement in shooters, rather than the glut of boots-on-the-ground shooters that plagued the market for over a decade before.

Furthermore, smart-scoping is cosmetically meant to be an "ADS" function; it behaves exactly like zooming in in previous Halo games does, but with a physical animation to it instead of a black overlay with a circle and reticle in the middle of the screen. Being shot also forces you to descope, just like previous Halo games. Case-in-point, zooming in with the CE magnum or H2 battle rifle functions exactly as it did in those games, with the exact same functionality as the Halo 5 magnum or battle rifle. The only difference is what it looks like when zoomed in.

Additionally, 4v4 arena battles weren't a thing Call of Duty invented or even popularized; Halo 5 brought back a more standardized competitive shooter arena because it was reflective of the 2v2 and 4v4 matchups of CE and Halo 2's multiplayer modes, respectively. Also tangentially related, Call of Duty is 6v6, not 4v4. Big Team Battle has been a core part of Halo for years, yes, but it was not the sole aspect of Halo. The entire series' competitive scene has always been 4v4 infantry battles; not a Warthog in sight.
 

Jumeira

Banned
Halo 5 is mechanically perfect! It's the best thalo has ever been so keep it! Also the ADS thing is a lie, its cosmetic, functionally it's not ADS.

Just focus on better level design and story, 343i created greatness with Halo 5s combat .

I can't play halo now without clamber, so so good. I have a tough time playing Halo 1-3 due to its slow plodding nature .
 
Remove it probably, but I'd have them go back to the drawing board. A DOOM level rethink or Titanfall 2 fun crazy mechanics per level being the key for a new Campaign.
 

Rodelero

Member
Your argument implies sprint is the sole reason Halo 5's numbers dropped after release, which isn't the case. Halo 5's initial focus lacked basic staples of the Halo franchise, ranging from modes like Oddball and King of the Hill to series staples like Big Team Battle and social playlists. Warzone is the most popular aspect of the game, but I hardly consider it more than a distraction from Arena.

Furthermore, Halo 5 has never really addressed consistent issues in the Arena playlist, like smurf accounts and chronic quitters (and don't say putting a penalty timer on quitters is going to stop ragequitting; people who quit are going to quit regardless, and the timer just ensures they don't come back).

Competently implemented quitting penalties will go a long way to prevent ragequitting. At the very least, it should be possible to ensure that quitting is extremely infrequent in matches between high level players. If a persistent quitter gets banned for twenty four hours, or a week, you can be damned sure you'll see less quitting.

I enjoy Halo 5 quite a bit, but when it comes to the game proper, it was feature-barren at launch and took ages to come into its own. If it launched as it is right now, it'd be lauded for its feature-rich gameplay and potential for growth. As it is right now, it's a great game that is in need of some attention to fix some issues I feel have been in the game since launch.

Perhaps. It's telling that Rainbow Six, which launched just after Halo 5, so very poorly, is now far above Halo 5 in the charts.

Halo 5 was in development long before any of those games released. The beta was playable back in 2014, and we knew what was coming as early as Summer of that year--just three months or so months after Titanfall's release, and just barely after Advanced Warfare's multiplayer was revealed, and certainly long before anyone had their hands on Destiny. People say Halo 5 copied those games, but the reality is those games were all developed currently, and their similarities were more due to trends in the games industry pushing towards unique methods of movement in shooters, rather than the glut of boots-on-the-ground shooters that plagued the market for over a decade before.

You say that there were "trends in the games industry pushing towards unique methods of movement"... but they are almost all identical. Maybe it is purely coincidental, but one way or another, I'm pretty sure every one of Halo 5's movement abilities had already been done by the time Halo 5 released. Hardly ideal when you want people to be excited about your new game.

Furthermore, smart-scoping is cosmetically meant to be an "ADS" function; it behaves exactly like zooming in in previous Halo games does, but with a physical animation to it instead of a black overlay with a circle and reticle in the middle of the screen. Being shot also forces you to descope, just like previous Halo games. Case-in-point, zooming in with the CE magnum or H2 battle rifle functions exactly as it did in those games, with the exact same functionality as the Halo 5 magnum or battle rifle. The only difference is what it looks like when zoomed in.

It doesn't behave exactly like zooming in does in previous Halo games, and you must know that. Some weapons behave the same scoped and not scoped. Some behave differently.

Additionally, 4v4 arena battles weren't a thing Call of Duty invented or even popularized; Halo 5 brought back a more standardized competitive shooter arena because it was reflective of the 2v2 and 4v4 matchups of CE and Halo 2's multiplayer modes, respectively. Also tangentially related, Call of Duty is 6v6, not 4v4. Big Team Battle has been a core part of Halo for years, yes, but it was not the sole aspect of Halo. The entire series' competitive scene has always been 4v4 infantry battles; not a Warthog in sight.

I think you've kind of nailed it. The competitive scene has always been 4v4 infantry battles. Halo 5's Arena mode is built around the desires of a tiny minority. Halo's CORE experience has -always- featured vehicles, and not just in Big Team Battle, but in almost all of its ranked playlists too. Team Slayer, its most popular ranked mode, had vehicles on numerous maps, and as such, you could play Team Slayer, a single game mode, for hours, but feel like you were getting a lot more variety than you can in any of Arena's playlists in Halo 5.

I feel like with Halo 5, 343i decided they wanted to build something for everyone. They built Arena for the competitive scene. They built Breakout as an attempt to woo the esports scene. They built Warzone for the casuals (and to generate revenue). They even put in Big Team Battle to appease those who were going to be revolted by Warzone.

Unfortunately, Breakout is too limited and doesn't feel like Halo. Unfortunately, Big Team Battle was a lazy attempt, cobbled together without thought or love.

What's left are extremes. Arena, too serious to a fault, and Warzone, which replicates the worst of pay-to-win. I played Warzone for an hour before deciding to never play it again. I played Arena for a month before losing my enthusiasm because I felt like I'd seen it all already. I'm clearly not the only one, given that the game is behind so many other shooters.
 

Fatmanp

Member
I don't think it really matters. As sad as it is to say this, Halo multiplayer is now irrelevant. It will never reach the levels of popularity and dominance of Halo 2. I say that despite how I think Halo 5s core gameplay was a very good. The real reason that the Halo series has taken a hit is that it's community has gotten older and moved onto other games or given up on games altogether. A lot of the UK Halo community from the Halo 2/3 days that attended tournaments have either disappeared or are playing CSGO and Overwatch on PC.

If a propoer version of H2 and H3 were released on PC I think it may bring a few of them back in but it would not reignite the community because they have simply moved on. Myself included. That leaves a younger generation and the younger generation tend to care more about experiences with bells and whistles on it as opposed to a balanced and challenging game which will dictate who is the better player. Not who can have the highest KD or pull off sick quick scopes.
 

Trup1aya

Member
I'm not sure this argument works as well in your favour as you think. As much as Halo 5 is touted by many as being the best Halo multiplayer since 3, 2, or ever, dependent on the claimant, it hasn't lead to much in the way of popularity. A lot of people stopped playing quite quickly - for a reason.

The last time I looked, Halo 5 is behind Battlefield, Battlefront, Overwatch, Rainbow Six and three Call of Duty games in the Xbox Most Played lists. If this is how popular Halo is when the mechanics are perfected, as some suggest, the franchise is absolutely screwed. Halo 3 fought tooth and nail for the #1 spot with Call of Duty. Halo 5 is behind seven first person shooters and a horde of titles from other genres, including Bungie's new game, Destiny. Don't forget, either, that Halo is the only exclusive game in that list. It has an inherent advantage because all of its fanbase is concentrated in one place - it's still getting obliterated.

Now, admittedly, the gameplay mechanics aren't necessarily the reason for its lack of popularity, but I don't think they help. Halo 5 may feel quite distinct from Call of Duty in many respects, but the Spartan Abilities are clearly inspired by Titanfall, Advanced Warfare and Destiny, and the addition of ADS (even if it is more subtle than a typical implementation) goes further in that direction. The hyper tight focus on infantry only arena matches is yet another element I'd attribute to Call of Duty - and it has destroyed the thing that, for me, made Halo Halo: well balanced infantry v infantry, vehicle v vehicle, and infantry v vehicle gameplay. The lazy Big Team Battle and gross Warzone modes do nothing to help.

Halo 5 still suffers from copying other popular FPSs, just like Halo 4... it just copies a slightly different subset of features. It doesn't feel unique, and it doesn't feel fresh. It's gameplay is decent, but it's not a revelation, and certainly not enough to make up for the mess 343 have made with their playlists and the dreadful quality/quantity/variety of maps.

You've kinda went on to counter your own argument at the end but, sure people quit or skipped H5 or for a reason- but how many did so BECAUSE of the mechanics? I'm honestly not convinced its a major factor.

Apathy after H4 + MCC
Lack of split screen
Lack of Social features
Lack of Gametypes
Terrible Campaign
Unstable Networking
Terrible Matchmaking
Terrible Playlist Management
Terrible Lobby system
Gamebreaking bugs
Stiff competition that doesn't suffer these issues

Im not a huge fan of how Sprint was implimented, but i strongly doubt that reception to the mechanics has contributed to H5s popularity (or lack there of), especially when you look at the how impactful the aforementioned issues would be to the average player.

Despite aesthetic similarities and some mechanical functions to other modern FPS Halo still plays like nothing else.

I'd say, given all of the utter bullshit shit that current halo 5 players have to put up with everyday, I'd say that the mechanics must be a highlight, and part of the reason they are sticking around.

Also with all this competition, being a first party doesn't provide a sales advantage. 3rd parties have been reigning supreme since h3...
 

UKUMI0

Member
I honestly think Sprint works in Halo 5, so I say keep it.

Radar on the other hand... I think Destiny does it better.
 

Trup1aya

Member
back on topic, i think Sprint CAN work in a Halo game, but it shouldnt dominate map design, and it shouldn't convolute the controls.

https://youtu.be/knSzJbkofek at 3:35 you'll see how Sprint was implimented into UT (a shooter that was always an inspiration to OG Halo)

In UT, Sprint takes 3 seconds to activate, and is cancelled by changing direction, taking damage, or making aerial maneuvers. with so many ways to take users out of sprint, the mechanic CANNOT negatively influence map design or engagements.

In contrast, halo5 maps are designed with the idea that players will be sprinting often which hinders map designs. Since you can't shoot while sprinting, it means navigating a ton of dead space in order to get to the action.

Also, 343 made the mistake of making sprint a crucial part of navigation instead of an optional/situational one. You can't make certain jumps without sprinting, you can't effectively run flags without sprinting, and you often have to put your gun down in order to get into the proper position.

If Sprint is going to stay in, it needs to have checks and balances to make sure it isn't a requirement or a crutch.
 

Trup1aya

Member
ADS was in the beta and still remains in the final game. There's a difference in bullet spread between ADS and normal.

On some weapons. But when there's descoping, does it really matter?

I'd rather they kept the spread the same for the sake of the complaints. But, it is such a minor part of this implementation. If you get crossmapped by someone with a scoped AR, ADS is the least of your concerns.
 
Nothing wrong with options, I know when I die in overwatch and I move as slow as a snail back to the objective it drives me up a wall and that's probably the only thing I hate about that game. Lack of sprint is a pain in the ass.

People brought up Doom earlier in the thread, but you didn't need sprint in that game because when you moved you were cruising around the arena like a bat out of hell. So maybe really up the movement speed?

As far as ADS? How about give us real ADS, if it really puts me at a disadvantage of people strafing and moving that's alright, I'm ok with that. No one is forcing you to ADS, me ADS should make me a easy target no? Good, come and get me then is my stance on that.

Of course as mentioned earlier, Overwatch doesn't have sprint (besides soldier) or ADS (besides widow maker) and no one really cares about it in that game.

Let me wrap it up......sure remove ADS and Sprint, but make the game fun again, because 5 was geared more towards the competitive people and left everyone else kind of in the dust. (Imo of course)
 

xviper

Member
they nailed the MP in Halo 5, it's perfection, don't do the same mistake Respawn did with Titanfall 2, after they made a masterpiece of a MP in Titanfall 1, they fucked up TF2's MP by trying to "Improve it"

all they have to do in Halo 6 MP to make it amazing is remove the stupid REQ system( i know that won't happen since it prints money)

added all the known modes during launch instead of what happened in Halo 5's launch, like BTB, Infected, Grief Ball...Etc

make a real non-forge Big Team Battle maps

as for the campaign, i really don't care about Halo's campaign anymore after Halo 3, it went downhill even though i enjoyed Halo 4 campaign but it's terrible compared to Halo 2\3

DON'T SACRIFICE THE 60FPS IN FAVOR OF SPLIT-SCREEN, there is barely any one plays Split-screen anymore, 60FPS all the way
 
What is strange to me (minus the weapon damage etc) because of the design of the maps and the lack of having to use clamber much to move in position to get kills etc

Is that breakout has a better overall feeling of what the old halo games were. Mostly cause of the map design, being long enough and wide enough to accompany the sprint plus movement. A lot of open areas and not clamber area upon clamber. and mostly the reason I stuck to it a lot more than the other modes with maps that felt quite bad for me personally.

I admit to initially seeing breakout as terrible, but after it got a range of maps and decently competitive it became decent for me. Felt more like halo cause of the map design and overall gameplay that was present from that.

Halo 5 def has a long range of issues that have been covered and the Halo devs continue to ignore it and only focus on the people that like the game. So, I give up on even trying or feeling they will take it seriously. I still plan to get into Destiny where I felt it at least felt like Halo aiming and some parts of hit detection, art style etc that Bungie has.

I really hope they don't mess up Halo 3 anniversary with their graphics engine or movements. I'd hate to see extra shine, fog, blooms and exaggerated textures. If they do it, I'll not support it and I almost buy any and every game I have an inch of interest in. The pit they made for Halo 4 is a shining example of how to ruin one of the best maps ever made. it's quite bad how a game company can get something so wrong.
 

Trup1aya

Member
Spartan charge balanced very well? When you can thrust and it curves and follows you? Or its ridiculous range lol

Of you dislike Spartan charge, you are objectively bad at the game

/s

Edit: definately disnt mean to bump this. Shouldn't be posting the moment i wake up
 

nekkid

It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
If the maps are designed for a lack of sprint, then I don't see the benefit.
 
I hope they keep sprint purely so that they can bring all of 5's arena maps forward, and hopefully iterate on the Warzone maps and Forge Canvasses.

If Halo 6 launches with 10-15 new maps, and the majority of Halo 5's, it will be incredibly content rich.

Sprint has always felt like a scapegoat response to me. While I would prefer no-sprint, there are significantly more pressing matters like designing a competent Campaign with an interesting universe, accommodating a greater variety (and lapsed/ignored audience) of players - partially through more diverse offerings, improving the micro-transactions system, and unifying the community.
 
I hope they keep sprint purely so that they can bring all of 5's arena maps forward, and hopefully iterate on the Warzone maps and Forge Canvasses.

If Halo 6 launches with 10-15 new maps, and the majority of Halo 5's, it will be incredibly content rich.

Sprint has always felt like a scapegoat response to me. While I would prefer no-sprint, there are significantly more pressing matters like designing a competent Campaign, accommodating a greater variety (and lapsed/ignored audience) of players - partially through more diverse offerings, improving the micro-transactions system, and unifying the community.

I am anti-sprint, but this is a really fair view. Never thought of that tbh... Although I don't think a lot of their maps even worked.

Regardless, kudos.
 

mcrommert

Banned
Sprint is coming back... It makes the Halo 5 style game play work... Halo 5 has been game play since Halo 2...i hope they bring it back
 

JimiNutz

Banned
The mechanics in Halo 5 are brilliant and your Spartan actually feels quick and powerful for the first time in the franchise.

I'm in favour of keeping the mechanics as they are currently but if they must mix it up then I vote that they keep the sprinting speed as the default running speed and if you want to slow your Spartan down then you will have to crouch to walk at a 'normal' Halo speed.
 

Ushay

Member
Multi is really hardcore so won't talk about it.

For campaign if they are gonna do squad team again instead of playing as the Chief only then please give each one unique abilities. Sprint for one, other razor sharp sniper skill, another with dodge etc.

I mean...these Spartans have nothing special. At all.

This is on point, I think Spartans need unique abilities to differentiate them and possibly some lite RPG mechanics in the campaign to make things interesting. For example Snipers with Camo ability of varying type, could have modifiers for duration, damage boosts etc

There is so much 343 could do with this game, but they are playing it far too safe.

OT - Dash should stay. Go forward with the series, not backwards.
 

RowdyReverb

Member
The thing about sprinting in the campaign is that it makes it hard to return to the wide open semi-linear feel of the earlier Halo games. I think they really tried to get that in Halo 5, but sprinting allows you to cover ground so fast that large spaces don't feel so large anymore. Not to mention the effective range of Halo's weapons has steadily increased since H:CE, making it easier and easier to reach out and touch enemies
 

Novocaine

Member
Echoing others here in that I think the movement in Halo 5 is amazing so I'd like to keep it, as well as clamber and boosting.

The thing about sprinting in the campaign is that it makes it hard to return to the wide open semi-linear feel of the earlier Halo games. I think they really tried to get that in Halo 5, but sprinting allows you to cover ground so fast that large spaces don't feel so large anymore. Not to mention the effective range of Halo's weapons has steadily increased since H:CE, making it easier and easier to reach out and touch enemies

The campaign levels are smaller and focused. Playing Warzone with sprint though it still feels pretty vast. I think if they made big sprawling areas in the campaign having sprint wouldn't hurt at all.
 
At this point they're going to keep it, and I'm absolutely fine with that, but...it does affect map flow greatly and I think a lot of the arena maps didn't exactly work great with it in Halo 5.

I think 343 are on the right track with making maneuverability an important part of Halo gameplay. You're a Spartan and you should feel like a Spartan. A lot of people will probably disagree with me, but I think there's something about the movement that still feels constrained to the old Halo feel, when we need more fluidity. I think of a game like Crysis 2/3 multiplayer, and those super jumps feel much more physics based and controllable, and running around and grabbing ledges and whatnot makes you feel like a badass. Titanfall 2 is another example of that, but for some reason Crysis multiplayer always sticks out in my head as the best (although Titanfall 2 has the best slide ever). Halo 5 started to capture that, but I still feel like it has some work to do in that department. Halo is a strange one, the engine feels like the original games which is good for fans and good for some aspects of gameplay, but it also seems to me that it holds other things back.
 

Jumeira

Banned
Remove sprint 100%. Halo 5 feels like a CoD game. 4 even felt better to play. Halo needs to go back to the style of Halo 3. Perfect game IMO.

Bollocks, i hate CoD gameplay (and cannot enjoy Titanfall as a consequence), Halo 5 is NOTHING like CoD. If it was, itd suffer the same fate as Titanfall for me.

OP - Halo 5 is the best Halo has ever been in terms for movement and gunplay, clamber added a whole new level of dynamism which i cant do without. Older Halo games are sluggish and a chore to play, do not want to go back.

Keep it, keep all of H5. Work on the gameplay scenarios and world design.
 
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