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So say Galactic Empire (Star Wars) invades the Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)...
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KevinCow said:
:lol
A lightsaber cuts through damn near anything with rare exceptions; there is no way the Imperium just so happened to use one of two very rare metals not found in their Galaxy that are actually able to screw with the saber's energy... to build standard weaponry for their troops.
Of course, the Imperium does have Power Weapons, some of which also generate energy fields... which is what they would have to use in melee combat against a Sith or Dark Jedi.
spiderman123
Member
JayDubya said::lol
A lightsaber cuts through damn near anything with rare exceptions; there is no way the Imperium just so happened to use one of two very rare metals not found in their Galaxy that are actually able to screw with the saber's energy.
My penis is stronger than a light saber. It's a weapon for pussies.
Lightsabres really helped during order 66. Jedi/Sith die just as easily when it comes down to it.JayDubya said::lol
A lightsaber cuts through damn near anything with rare exceptions; there is no way the Imperium just so happened to use one of two very rare metals not found in their Galaxy that are actually able to screw with the saber's energy... to build standard weaponry for their troops.
Of course, the Imperium does have Power Weapons, some of which also generate energy fields... which is what they would have to use in melee combat against a Sith or Dark Jedi.
BattleMonkey
Member
Sinatar said:
Planet destruction is all neat and such, but really pretty pointless weapon in warfare. Even in 40k with all the weapons they have for planet destruction, they don't use them as it is just not smart to be blowing up and wasting every planet you come across. Planets are important resources and even in bad situations the Imperium has not gone around and blew up planets when they lost them to orks/chaos/etc. They would attempt to fight back and take it.
Planet destruction is always brought up in all these Vs. threads when it's just not a particularly practical means of warfare.
ElectricBlue187
Member
40k wins. The Empire could only make a dent if they invested heavily on creating an army of Dark Jedi Masters and Knights, otherwise they wouldn't stand a chance on the ground
JayDubya said::lol
A lightsaber cuts through damn near anything with rare exceptions; there is no way the Imperium just so happened to use one of two very rare metals not found in their Galaxy that are actually able to screw with the saber's energy... to build standard weaponry for their troops.
Of course, the Imperium does have Power Weapons, some of which also generate energy fields... which is what they would have to use in melee combat against a Sith or Dark Jedi.
The lightsaber is the equivalent of a Power Weapon in the 40k Universe as you've said It can be dealt with, so lightsabers aren't an overwhelming factor.
Now the C'tan Phase sword of the Callidus Assassinorum.....
All this talk of ships that can obliterate stars and planets. Yes OK, they can.....but would you? If you went around blowing up everything, you'd have no foothold anyway. No resources to feed your troops and what not, so it's not just about simple firepower.
Also as mentioned earlier, the IoM uses various kill-team/strike forces to deal with other ships instead of just fighting. Whilst teleportation technology isn't understood, it is utilised. You would have random Terminator squads or Imperial Assassins teleporting onto your ship and running amok.
You do NOT want an Eversor assassin running around your ship for lulz. Jedi or Sith......you're going to die to it.
Now I was looking up about Hyperspace, and it seems that the Immaterium of the 40k Universe is the equivalent of Hyperspace; actually more of a renaming. So now I pose to you.....how are the SW ships going to traverse the place without any Geller fields?
Geller Fields being a technology that protects you from Daemons that attack your ship as your traverse the Warp/Hyperspace. It's one thing dealing with the Imperium of Man....it's another thing dealing with the Warp.
Edit: Bah, BattleMonkey beat me to the planet destruction point :lol
Aegus said:
I think you need to consider that when you're in the midst of defending your troops from fire from one side, and blocking all incoming shots, it's then hard to block all the shots from those guys you were defending, too.
All about positioning, really.I mean bolters and such would be no good... Melta and flamers would have to be the way to go; even explosives could be stopped before the point of contact, or worse, repelled back to the source.
I mean, if it were a straight fight at the point of the Battle of Yavin with no "prep time" for the Empire? Not enough Dark Jedi and not enough Dark Troopers. The quantity of those two would make the difference, I'd say.
BattleMonkey
Member
Meteorain said:
They are not the same. As with all these universe fights, there are always elements that are self contained because of their fantastic properties. There is no Warp in the SW universe, same as there is no force in the 40k universe. Both the universes are pretty out there with their science representation, course I don't think anything beats out 40k for sheer ridiculousness (outside of anime) and lack of concrete documentation. Even the folks who work at GW and write this stuff have no clue as it's more fantasy than science fiction.
Rogue Trader that FFG recently put out is the first instance of documented ship speeds for example, and it's been torn apart on other boards for how it doesn't make sense in relation to other fiction set in the universe.
DrForester
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BattleMonkey said:
Just because anime has it's galaxy sized robot that would win any of these fights....
40k would win easy. We aren't even talking about the whole universe, just the Imperium. One space marine boarding party on any ship would basically mean that ship is fucked. I'm not aware of the extended Star Wars fiction, but I find it hard to believe Dark Jedi are strong/numerous enough to deal with all the different anti-psykers forces (presuming the Force works in a similar way) the Imperium has.
Sort of off topic, but is there no Star Wars fiction that isn't on such a grand scale? Everyone's talking about ships 1-upping each other and shit, hasn't anyone written more focused books like Gaunt's Ghosts or Eisenhorn?
Sort of off topic, but is there no Star Wars fiction that isn't on such a grand scale? Everyone's talking about ships 1-upping each other and shit, hasn't anyone written more focused books like Gaunt's Ghosts or Eisenhorn?
The Imperium of Man would whoop ass on any ground battle and while the Empire might have an advantage in space battles, they won't be able to utilize the Death Star since it's so huge that the Imperium's powerful weapons would actually manage to hit it.
Ground battles would be a slaughterfest. AT-ATs? A squad of (assault) Space Marines would tear through those with Melta weaponry and let's not even go to Titans, the walkers of the Imperium...
I'd wager that ship to ship would include loads of boarding parties from the Imperium - get a team of Terminators in there and you can teleport more Space Marines to their teleport homer. Propably won't even need the reinforcements, a squad of Terminators would tear through everything but force users, hell a basic SM squad would. Would the Empire fire on their own ships to destroy a boarding party?
And if Palpatine's gunning for the Holy Terra, with the intention of trying to capture it - not going to happen. Even Horus couldn't do it (although he would've if he hadn't dropped his teleportation shield) and he had half of the space marines fighting under him. Terra is the most defended place the Imperium has and that's counting the base they have guarding the Eye of Terror - you know, the base Chaos has to go through to launch a large scale assault. Speaking of which, I'd wager the Imperium would construct a similar fortress next to the worm hole.
And the rest of the factions? Since the portal works both ways, a stray Tyranid Hivefleet going through it would destroy a sizable portion of the Empire, if not all of it if they can't deny it biomass. Orks reproduce by spores so if they somehow managed to crash through the portal, they'd infest several worlds and eventually would start a WAAAGHHHH there.
And I'm not even that into WH40k
Ground battles would be a slaughterfest. AT-ATs? A squad of (assault) Space Marines would tear through those with Melta weaponry and let's not even go to Titans, the walkers of the Imperium...
I'd wager that ship to ship would include loads of boarding parties from the Imperium - get a team of Terminators in there and you can teleport more Space Marines to their teleport homer. Propably won't even need the reinforcements, a squad of Terminators would tear through everything but force users, hell a basic SM squad would. Would the Empire fire on their own ships to destroy a boarding party?
And if Palpatine's gunning for the Holy Terra, with the intention of trying to capture it - not going to happen. Even Horus couldn't do it (although he would've if he hadn't dropped his teleportation shield) and he had half of the space marines fighting under him. Terra is the most defended place the Imperium has and that's counting the base they have guarding the Eye of Terror - you know, the base Chaos has to go through to launch a large scale assault. Speaking of which, I'd wager the Imperium would construct a similar fortress next to the worm hole.
And the rest of the factions? Since the portal works both ways, a stray Tyranid Hivefleet going through it would destroy a sizable portion of the Empire, if not all of it if they can't deny it biomass. Orks reproduce by spores so if they somehow managed to crash through the portal, they'd infest several worlds and eventually would start a WAAAGHHHH there.
And I'm not even that into WH40k
BattleMonkey
Member
f0rk said:
Pretty much all of it. The books and extended fiction is not about upping one another. Most of these things brought up were nothing but plot devices mainly used in early comic books. The Eclipse Star Destroyer for example never really does anything, it just sits there until it is eventually blown up.... it looked impressive at least... I guess.
Oh and force users would get fucked by Psykers, Space Wolves, the Inquisition etc etc etc. And the basic weaponry for Space Marines is a rapidfire RPG, leave the lasguns (similar to blasters) to the Guard. I doubt blocking an energy weapon does much to an explosive warhead. Or how about Heavy Bolters, which are basically the vehicle mounted versions of those, except Space Marines can wield those solo.
And Light Sabers? I bet you can safely assume that Force Weapons would be adequate in blocking the actual saber. Now force would allow the user to gain advantage in combat, but even the masters aren't unkillable in combat.
And Light Sabers? I bet you can safely assume that Force Weapons would be adequate in blocking the actual saber. Now force would allow the user to gain advantage in combat, but even the masters aren't unkillable in combat.
Deadman said:
From what I remember reading the Thrawn series a decade or so ago, he needs to get his hands on the culture of the force he's going against to truly get into the Xanados business. Too bad the Imperium isn't a single culture. Hell, some of their worlds are still living in the middle ages and use actual cavalry on their planets. They only pay tithe to the planetary governor that lives on orbit.
BattleMonkey
Member
Tacitus_ said:
Seeing as the OP shows that the they reconned the universe, I'm sure they would know this, and most of the archaic worlds are not anywhere near Terra.
R2D4 said:
It found a niche and it's running with it.
It's a tone thing.
It is a crapsack universe of perpetual war and doom with fire and skulls and chainsaw-swords and 'splosions and heavy metal. Everything is EXTREME.
As such, comparisons of power level are always going to be kind of wonky, as I said earlier. :lol
Still, toe to toe, I'd put certain elements of Star Wars as more powerful than their analogues. But without some Batman-prep, the Empire would get owned by the Imperium.
Of course, Thrawn is quite capable of the Batman-prep.
Enosh
Member
no he wouldn'tTacitus_ said:
he droped his shields as a last ditch effort to try and kill the Emperor in a 1vs1 battle, he had to do it beacose his ground forces weren't going anywhere and the reinforcements from the, iirc Space Wolves and some other chapter were already very close to Terra
BattleMonkey
Member
It's alot of style over substance.... much of the size of 40k ships is because they are basically floating cities. Huge sections of the ships can be basically a church built ontop of the ship. Loading a round into a cannon will be done manually by thousands of "slaves" who have to use giant pulleys and such to move the rounds into the cannon chambers.
It's as extreme as you can get.
It's as extreme as you can get.
BattleMonkey said:
However the Force does seem to magically work in the 40k Universe in this instance.
Sure, there's no Warp in the SW Universe, but when the SW ships come along and utilise the same technology, the equivalent bit of the Universe they are traversing through is the Warp. It's the only way to achieve FTL in the 40k Universe. Hell, the Eldar and Necrons/C'tan use it and they are ridiculously advanced technologically.
BattleMonkey
Member
Meteorain said:
Except the concept of the force is meant to exist in all living things. The SW universe does not live in a bubble that brings along it's force. There are no midichlorians, no force, in the 40k universe, the Jedi would technically not be able to do anything going into another universe. Same thing with the warp is not the same as hyperspace, they are just two completely different concepts. You are trying to mish mash two completely different fantastical elements that just don't go together, and this is where these fan threads also break down outside of lack of concrete documentation outside of contradictory visual references for the most part. Just because a race is technologically advanced by their universe standards, only means that they are advanced in their own pocket universe. Many of these franchises have completely different understandings of basic physics and reality that putting logic into them is pretty silly.
I thought Necrons didn't and Tau can't use anything warp based (that requires them connect personally to it)? Tau just don't believe in demons and Necrons are bunch of machines with the intention of eliminating everything living so the warp dies with them.
Oh, remembered my wiki wrong. Still works for my point against the Empire.
With the wormhole being where it is, they have no chance of getting anything to or from Terra without a heavy siege. All they would have is some handmedowns from the weaker planets that they could overrun before Space Marines arrive. Granted this is Thrawn, but I wonder what he would get out of them without a reference point.
Enosh said:
Oh, remembered my wiki wrong. Still works for my point against the Empire.
BattleMonkey said:
With the wormhole being where it is, they have no chance of getting anything to or from Terra without a heavy siege. All they would have is some handmedowns from the weaker planets that they could overrun before Space Marines arrive. Granted this is Thrawn, but I wonder what he would get out of them without a reference point.
BattleMonkey
Member
Tacitus_ said:
There is nothing in the 40k universe that could stop the SW ships though in hyperspace. Space Travel for the Imperium is highly limited due to the dependence on the warp. Also SW ships are shown to be incredibly fast compared to 40k ones when it comes to FTL travel. The empire could jump from one end of the galaxy to another before the Imperium would even start to comprehend what is going on.
Alucrid said:
That's what the Eldar like to say.
The way the Harlequins describe the Webway though, it has very many Warp like properties. So it's not fully part of the warp, but it's not unconnected.
Edit: I mistakenly added Necrons to Warp use. They don't use it, because they have that magical Phasing tech.
BattleMonkey said:
Yeah, the Empire has an edge in FTL, but doesn't their FTL tech require some sort of charting? I believe probes were suggested in the previous thread, but this still leaves the fact that the Sol system is heavily defended and they would need to land something that is capably of FTL back to actually get anything useful out.
BattleMonkey
Member
Tacitus_ said:
Yes, really the invasion scenario into another galaxy just really doesn't work out since the Empire just wouldn't do it without much prior exploration and study. As I mentioned in the Trek Vs Wars thread before, it just doesn't make much sense since the ships would enter through the wormhole and basically not know where to go. It took thousands of years for the SW universe to chart it's hyperspace routes.
BattleMonkey said:
Yeah and in the Trek thread they had the advantage of maybe getting useful info out of the Federation ships. Here though? Good luck trying to find the Astronomicon without psykers.
They might be able to get a general direction with force sensitives, but that opens up an another can of worms - if they can touch the warp, they can and most likely will attract daemons and they no training to resist them.
Tacitus_ said:
OHHHH YEAH... that's something I hadn't considered.
The astronavigation requires complicated calculations of where things will be in space, and this is based on recency and accuracy of data.
The hyperspace inhibitor will *sometimes* bring you out of hyperspace in time to not collide with an unexpected large mass, and of course interdictors are not actually that large but put out a field that manipulates those inhibitors. It's worse than reckless to deactivate them, though it can be done.
In the Galactic Civil War timeframe the Empire completely controls the Holonet so they're the only ones with the ability to easily get reliable and accurate navigational data. It's one of their chief advantages, so the Rebellion has to rely on spies and slicers and such...
In any event, yes, they would need reconnaissance data to use their hyperdrives well.
jakershaker
Member
hteng said:
But the Warhammer universe already know about chaos, it comes with the territory. For the SW crowd it would be a nice little surprise.
In the end the biggest question is, of all the universes to invade who in their right mind would ever set their foot in WH40k :lol Well except if you have the same mindset as the boyz.
Alucrid said:
"Oh Darth *insert name* you are looking pointier than usual"
"BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD"
"OH dear"
A major factor we have to consider is the psychology of both sides. The SW Universe seems to be all Flowers and Fairies compared to the 40k Universe. The people of the 40k Universe are pretty much used to every manner of fucked up. Can the SW forces deal with some of the stuff the IoM dish out?
If I ever saw an Eversor I know I'd shit a brick :lol
In terms of capturing the enemy. I'm sure the Imperium could get the information they wanted. The other way round though? Capture a Guardsmen? Sure. Capture a SM? Nearly impossible and you would never get anything out of him. Capture a Grey Knight? You're already dead!
jakershaker
Member
Meteorain said:
This. A hundred times this.
The absolute worst shit that happens in Star Wars is like an ordinary Tuesday afternoon in WH40k
freethought
Member
The one thing that always bothered me about these capital ships in sci-fi is how close they get to each other before engaging. I'm going to throw the Culture into the mix here and say they'll destroy both civilisations with ease because there ships will never have to get in range of any Imperial forces.
Three things (probably mentioned before but what the hey)
First) Each and Every Enemy that the Imperium has been dealing with for the past few MILLENIA are all far far worse than the Empire (except maybe for the Tau, *maybe*). Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Chaos have access to levels of mind fuckery that Jedis can't even imagine. Chaos, Orks, and the TYRANIDS can pull of a kind of mass zerg attack that StormTroopers can't even begin to match. The Eldar/Dark Eldars/Tau and especially the NECRONS all have huge technological edges over the Imperium as well with the Necrons being just insane with what they can do.
There's no tactic that I can imagine the Empire carrying out against the Imperium that the Impreium hasn't already had thrown against them repeatedly and far more viciously.
Second) Kind of a corollry to the first but I think it's been established that the WH40K UNIVERSE would absolutely destroy the Star Wars universe. And the Imperium survives in it.
Third) I don't understand the comparisons between Stormtroopers and Space Marines. The equivalent to the Stormtroopers are the Imperial Guard and god damn the Imperial Guard are Stormtroopers taken to a FUCKED UP EXTREME. The Imperial Guard alone can take Star Wars Ground forces out. Leaving all the other horrifying stuff that the Imperium has free to deal with Empire special units.
First) Each and Every Enemy that the Imperium has been dealing with for the past few MILLENIA are all far far worse than the Empire (except maybe for the Tau, *maybe*). Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Chaos have access to levels of mind fuckery that Jedis can't even imagine. Chaos, Orks, and the TYRANIDS can pull of a kind of mass zerg attack that StormTroopers can't even begin to match. The Eldar/Dark Eldars/Tau and especially the NECRONS all have huge technological edges over the Imperium as well with the Necrons being just insane with what they can do.
There's no tactic that I can imagine the Empire carrying out against the Imperium that the Impreium hasn't already had thrown against them repeatedly and far more viciously.
Second) Kind of a corollry to the first but I think it's been established that the WH40K UNIVERSE would absolutely destroy the Star Wars universe. And the Imperium survives in it.
Third) I don't understand the comparisons between Stormtroopers and Space Marines. The equivalent to the Stormtroopers are the Imperial Guard and god damn the Imperial Guard are Stormtroopers taken to a FUCKED UP EXTREME. The Imperial Guard alone can take Star Wars Ground forces out. Leaving all the other horrifying stuff that the Imperium has free to deal with Empire special units.
Someone mentioned it before but I think it needs repeating: the Galactic Empire would first have to survive in the 40k universe. That includes random Daemon attacks (from hyperspace I imagine), Craftworlds, Ork Roks, the rare Alpha Psyker and Warp Rifts that come out of nowhere in the middle of space.
Lostconfused
Member
Quick reference for force user vs marine
Star wars is wacky fantasy land, Star Trek didn't have a chance because empire's space ships are so hilariously over the top that nothing would probably even scratch their hull. So it really depends on if Emperium's weapons are effective enough. Either that or effective use of boarding parties to disable Empire's capital ships. Heck if a single squad of marines can make it aboard the Death Star then its just a matter of time before everyone on board is dead.
Star wars is wacky fantasy land, Star Trek didn't have a chance because empire's space ships are so hilariously over the top that nothing would probably even scratch their hull. So it really depends on if Emperium's weapons are effective enough. Either that or effective use of boarding parties to disable Empire's capital ships. Heck if a single squad of marines can make it aboard the Death Star then its just a matter of time before everyone on board is dead.
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