Bolivar687
Banned
I think this will be like Media Molecule or Sucker Punch, if the first few games go well, they'll make an offer.
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Sony announces partnership w/ KojiPro, New IP, 1st game "console exclusive to PS4"/PC
- Thread starter Rajang
- Start date
I think this will be like Media Molecule or Sucker Punch, if the first few games go well, they'll make an offer.
Neuromancer
Member
Are there any huge Kojima fans out there that don't have a PS4 (or a PC)? If so, I have to wonder... What are you doing?
Fallout-with-swords
Banned
I have nothing to back this up but I have a hard time believing Konami would be able to stop Kojima from starting another Kojima Productions. I mean it's his last name, I don't think you can stop someone from using their own name to promote themselves. Like they wouldn't be able to use the Fox logo but the name is his.
I don't know why some folks think this. It is beyond obvious at this point that Kojima wants to be independent. He himself has made that clear in his interviews.
There could always be people who used to have PS / PC up till now and are on Xbox One / WiiU only or both. There could also be people who only discovered MGS fairly recently with the HD collection.
BibiMaghoo
Member
A quick google search shows that the original trademark does indeed belong to Konami, and not Kojima. That could be problematic if it has not already been agreed in some form.
serversurfer
Member
First, Sony don't get to decide arbitrarily when they're going to buy a studio. Some folks simply aren't for sale. And yes, it would obviously be a huge win for Sony if KojiPro were part of WWS. That said, the most important consideration for Sony by far is that Kojima feels happy and personally fulfilled by his relationship with Sony no matter what form that relationship takes because that's when artists tend to produce their best work.
Remember, Kojima did not just side with Sony here. He and Sony have been closely aligned for two decades. The primary impediment to their relationship during this time was likely his fealty to Konami. Now he's no longer beholden to them, but I doubt he's eager to become beholden to anyone else at this point, and pushing the point would be a net loss for Sony in the long run. I've no doubt that Sony offered him a position in their house, because it would've been incredibly rude for them to have not done so, but it would be a token gesture that no one really expected him to accept. Kojima doesn't need another master. He needs to prove himself, to himself. Of course his good friends at Sony always be by his side in that endeavor or any decision Kojima makes, because that's what friends do.
Chaos2Frozen
Member
Here's the thing- We don't know what Kojima did if anything at all.
However we have numerous records and testaments of Konami screwing over their employees and being particularly spiteful to Kojima specifically.
EVEN IF, he did mismanaged their funds, do you actually think their actions are justified?
Also, the fact that they're trying to hush it up even at this point is plenty suspicious- if Kojima did do something wrong, why would Konami passed up the opportunity to further shame him? They're doing a bang up job so far.
SolidSnakex
Member
What would be his fault? Let's just say that he did go way over budget with MGSV. Does that explain why he was essentially blocked from promoting MGSV at all after the initial news broke about this story? Or how they blocked him from attending PSX or The Game Awards? They also apparently leaked his announcement with Sony.
Eolz
Member
FF7 remake isn't even an exclusive, so it should probably be compared with Bloodborne instead.
Hard to make an estimate when we don't even know what kind of project he's doing anyway.
AmuroChan
Member
They absolutely can. My wife is self-employed and her initial company name had her name in it. She had to change it when she was notified by lawyers of another company that already uses that name. If your name is Apple, it doesn't mean you can start a company called Apple Inc. If it's already trademarked by another company, it doesn't matter if that's your name.
serversurfer
Member
This. Kojima may have a fairly good idea of what he's looking to do — and I'd guess he's probably targeting no more than 18 months of production with a mid-size team — but until he goes through the pre-production process, it's nothing more than an idea. He could alter that slightly, or go in a completely different direction. Whatever he ends up doing, I'm sure Sony will be happy to bankroll it. I'm most interested in knowing who ends up owning the IP. It may turn out that Sony own the gaming rights, while Kojima retains creative control and the rights for other media, like film, anime, manga, etc.
Yup, and if Konami were letting him keep the name, it would certainly explain why they pulled it from all of the MGS5 material. Actually, I thought it was kind of cool they let him keep the name at all. They could have easily forced him to call himself Kojima Studios or whatever. Clearly they can't work together anymore, but perhaps there's not quite as much animosity there as we thought.
Callibretto
Member
this deal happened so quickly, I'm not sure specific money transfer happened yet between Sony and Kojima. is it possible that Sony just help Kojima starting out, providing office space for Kojima new studio and simply a general promise to fund Kojima next game, now Kojima will need to staff up, and make some game pitches to Sony of what he want to do next and the negotiate the proposed budget.
vpance
Member
The hints of starting out smaller might be a hint I suppose. But then again that doesn't mean it couldn't ramp up in year 2 or 3.
Helping him get set up with a place and most likely handling a lot of the HR stuff is definitely a load off his plate and probably a huge reason he went with Sony. But yeah, the negotiation must be an ongoing process and progress based. I mean, obviously he won't have the flexibility to hire 500 devs right off the bat or something, but I can imagine if the game is looking promising Sony could open up the wallets some more. Can't see him getting that kind of flexibility anywhere else. Maybe MS, but having no presence in Japan makes them a non-starter.
While I imagine there's some kind deal between Kojima and Konami, could it be that copyright laws differ in Japan? Just a thought.
Wa ... Are you crazy? (btw, do you know how much the FF7 deal cost? You seem to imply you do)
For that kind of money, they would own the studio outright, every IP they could make and then some.
We know close to nothing about the actual deal, and probably never will, but as Kojima himself revealed it's about much more than money.
It's about trust, people he knows, who happen to live in Japan and with whom he can talk and maintain a day to day business relation, going to have a beer with, in his hometown and talking his native language.
He also (or so it seems) wants a degree of freedom at this point in his career, independence from suits, and let me tell you: If a publisher invests that kind of money in a new studio (even with such a pedigree), they will watch over your shoulder like a hawk, and likely have options to own you.
It makes much more sense that Sony is taking on all the publisher expenses (physical release expenses, marketing, tech support, etc.) plus a "bonus", possibly providing all the development equipment (dev stations, software, etc.).
But the bulk of the expenses? (salaries) That's going to be kept away from Sony, I'd bet on that, so that they can remain independent.
Same for the money tied to the IP ownership (filing for copyrights, asset management, etc.), which will become the lifeblood of the studio and its future (if, like we hope, it is successful).
So it would either be self funded at that level (and I imagine Kojima got a nice severance package from Konami, given the way he was treated), with also the possibility of a Venture Capital Trust investment I guess.
But Sony forking out $20-$40m for no IP ownership and no oversight on an indie studio? That's crazy talk imo.
GhostOfSparta305
Banned
Honestly, this. Kojima's just going where his fans are. Which also shows why it's idiotic to compare this to Tomb Raider's exclusivity.
Tomb Raider made a name for itself because of the PlayStation.
All of its games were on PlayStation.
Most of its fanbase was on Playstation.
Abandoning that to be a timed exclusive elsewhere is a huge middle-finger to that fanbase. Same applies to GTA4's DLC.
Honestly the only reason I'm glad RotTR tanked.
JuanLatino
Member
so this could work out like Sakaguchi and Mistwalker in the past?
That was also a small studio & they worked with other studios on Lost Odyssey and blue Dragon
Probably Sony Japan & Kojima Productions
That was also a small studio & they worked with other studios on Lost Odyssey and blue Dragon
Probably Sony Japan & Kojima Productions
plasmawave
Banned
Kojima says there's a full body concept design for the logo's head.
Is it a new character for his new game?
Is it a new character for his new game?
Callibretto
Member
I think he mention 20mil because that seems like the low end of AAA games even for last gen, the only measurement I know is that Uncharted 1 cost about that much to make. So if Sony is fully funding their game, it's reasonable to think Sony will be forking out at least that much money in the end. How Kojipro spent that money is entirely up to them, but isn't large portion of video game budget goes to salary?
serversurfer
Member
Spot on. Hideo is their bro, but Sony can't justify handing over tens of millions of dollars without some kind of ownership or other guarantee on their investment. That's why I was saying the financial details will be as interesting as the game itself.
Kojima wants to be independent, but he's likely comparatively cash-poor right now. Certainly not broke, but I don't know how long he can personally afford to feed 100 developers, rent office space in Tokyo, etc. He said he wants to start small, but I think we can all agree that's likely to be a relative term when it comes to Kojima. It seems likely he'll need to secure financing to complete whatever it is he's planning.
As you say, Kojima will want to be responsible for things like salaries, so he can legitimately call them his employees, but he can't really afford that. Rather than going to a banker who may or may not share his vision, he seems likely he could basically get a loan from SCE. Sony can cover all the costs of development, including setting up the studio itself, and then just take double-royalties on the game sales until they recover X% of their investment. Deals like that aren't uncommon.
Like I said, there's also the possibility of splitting the IP rights. With a large enough investment, Sony will be compelled to ask for some amount of ownership, but Kojima has made it fairly clear he hopes to take the new IP far beyond gaming. Kojima may retain overall control of the IP, with Sony specifically controlling the gaming rights, kind of like how Marvel own Spiderman, but Sony are the ones who hold the rights to make Spiderman movies. Not really knowing what Kojima has planned apart from the hope it will cross mediums, I could see them working out a deal like that. That would basically set KojiPro as a second-party SCE dev akin to Insomniac with Ratchet, but would still leave Hideo the freedom to make manga or movies or whatever else he wants with his new franchise.
John Wick
Member
Over budget? MGS V made a killing. It's still probably selling well. It'll have legs. On top of that remember Ground Zero's? That little prologue that sold very well too. Konami are laughing all the way to the bank!
John Wick
Member
Kojima Productions is famous because of Kojima which is also his surname. He would have probably won the legal battle for the name as it's successful because of him. Konami probably realised they'd lose and let it go without losing more money
Dargor
Member
`and they also troll.
You can't be nice all the time or you will be taken for granted...
AmuroChan
Member
Maybe, but I imagine that the logic still applies that Hideo Kojima doesn't own the name "Kojima". He's not the only Kojima in Japan. If Hideki Kojima wants to open a restaurant called Kojima Sushi, I don't think Hideo can sue him for using his name.
Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew
Banned
I would personally love it if Sony lets Kojima go through their IP and let him hand pick any of their dead IP and ressurect it.
C'mon, Sony. You know you want to.
C'mon, Sony. You know you want to.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Cardinal Syn: A Hideo Kojima Game
serversurfer
Member
Similarly, Konami have no claim over the name Kojima, so they couldn't stop Hideo from opening his Studios any more than he could stop Hideki opening his Sushi (Bar).
Konami used to control the phrase Kojima Productions, but it seems Hideo has managed to come away with that, at the very least.
Nightengale
Member
I have a PC, but if his games are really good and become straight PS exclusives I'd probably buy back into the PS ecosystem. Tbh though, I like his pre-PS-PS2 stuff a lot better than what he has turned out in the last 10 years or so, so I'm not really as huge a Kojima fan as I was back in the day. As such, I'm not sure his games are going to be must buys if/when they stop being on PC. I hope, though, that in striking out, Kojima will find a new stride. We'll see. The industry could also sell me on a PS4/5 for other reasons.
As much as I am glad that he is away from Konami, this thinking is also very reckless. We don't really have both sides of the story so it's very possible that Kojima may have been tremendously excessive with how he managed spending and development manpower.
Consider the following: he built an entire new studio in LA to develop the online portion of the game and PC version, a brand new engine was built for the game which all told was only used for both MGSV games and the Soccer games, Ground Zeroes (a paid demo, essentially) was released to further finance the existence of the final game, and the finished product itself is simultaneously bloated and yet lacking what feels like major pieces of content. Also keep in mind they spent many years testing concepts for Metal Gear Rising before ultimately being forced to turn to Platinum, scrapping years of internal work on the game.
I don't want to see an unhinged Kojima, at least in terms of budget. I want to see what he can do given a realistic budget and timetable, while retaining creative freedom to explore themes and concepts outside of the confines of the Metal Gear franchise, or even other Konami series like Castlevania and Silent Hill that he was attached to throughout the years.
Cave Johnson
Member
It's also possible that Konami themselves forced Kojima to do all this by contract and was given all the resources to do so as long as it was dedicated to MGS. Building the engine, developing the PS4/X1 titles and providong a MT oriented online component. Relesing GZ as a standalone title.
As you said this doesn't seem like a game developed with focus in mind. It is as if it was "forced" to be in such a way.
Also, if Kojima was truly given control on the spending and development, how is it that they can outright cancel the SH project? And don't you think it's convenient for Konami to make another "Metal Gear" game with all the tooling, engine, and next-gen platform experiences readt on the table sans Kojima Productions? Knowing how Konami pretty much treats its franchises add to the silence contract post-resignation and the mistreatment reports at their studios is not something I would inherently give the benefit of the doubt od.
and they also troll.
I just like to think that is a playful jab at Phil Spencer.
Sidewinder
Member
But then he should've worn a shirt with a dead frog and skid marks on its back or something like that
Don't play with the feelings of Crash fans!!1
Got to stop you right there. The game has already made triple the amount that was spent.
So is not exactly as excessive like GTA 5 supposed to cost. In fact konami should really be glad but nope.
Neuromancer
Member
and they also troll.
Is it really trolling if a new Crash Bandicoot is in the works?
Chaos2Frozen
Member
Why do people keep citing this as if it's an excuse for Konami's behavior?
We have no information for what Kojima has done, but we have several reported cases of Konami being assholes in general. Who do you think deserved the benefit of the doubt?
Right and I'm merely saying that Kojima is not necessarily blameless in the side of the conflict. I'm not giving Konami the benefit of the doubt as I am being realistic about what might have happened. Of course we'll never actually know the full story, but the kind of thinking that people spout about "Kojima is a genius and now publishers should throw blank checks at him," is pretty flawed, don't you think?
Konami is certainly despicable for how they've handled the situation and mistreated nearly ever big name in their stable, no doubt. They're a company going for a scorched Earth policy and don't give a fuck about who they burn on their way out. But Kojima isn't a perfect developer. He takes a lot of time, sometimes lavishly to the sake of specific detail and attention, for better or worse. It's not an approach that is necessarily very sustainable, especially with the current state of the industry, and within any publisher I'm sure his style of development would be a concern.
I am glad that MGSV was a big success, but that's a massive brand built up for 25+ years. It's one of the safest bets one could ask for. Konami is foolish for not expecting a return on their investment, but I think there's also an argument to be made in terms of inefficient development planning considering it sounds like Kojima still needed another year or two to get the game where he really wanted it to be. And the repetitive and unfinished nature of the back half of MGSV shows it.
Like I said, I don't think the solution is to throw a blank check at him. I want to see what he can do on a smaller scale. Think about what Kojima is known for: the attention to detail in even the smallest facets of gameplay and storytelling. It's something that's difficult to accomplish on a smaller scale. I'm curious to see if he can still do it without such a massive sized production.
BTW I don't seriously believe Konami is making another Metal Gear. It just sounds like lip service on their way out of the industry completely.
Reallink
Member
When your franchise has sold 40 million some-odd copies and generated over 2 billion in revenue, there are plenty of corporate suitors who would be willing to fund 10's of million's simply for repayment and a profit %. Far more foolish and risky investments are made every day. Sony being a console maker, I'm sure they will roll in console exclusivity/console publishing rights for X-years.
Melchiah
Member
This perfectly echoes my thoughts about TR as well, with PC fanbase added to it.
serversurfer
Member
Yes, that's what I meant when I said, "he could basically get a loan from SCE. Sony can cover all the costs of development, including setting up the studio itself, and then just take double-royalties on the game sales until they recover X% of their investment. Deals like that aren't uncommon."
That said, I suspect this deal is going to be a little more complex than that. It's clear that KojiPro is an independent studio, but Sony are referring to this as Kojima "joining the family." Perhaps they're just being overly enthusiastic and welcoming, but to me that sounds like their relationship runs a little deeper than the typical, "We hired studio X to game a game for us," but I guess we'll find out eventually.
SkeptiMism
Member
Where do you get that amount? Do you have any sources for it or are you just throwing random numbers around?
I'm familiar with the $180 million in revenue made in day 1, but has there been other numbers then? And that $180 million is the total revenue most likely, not what Konami earned. Konami gets only about 27 bucks of each retail copy sold (more from a digital copy).
If the budget was about 90 million (if I remember correctly - feel free to correct me), then it'd seem they just about broke even on day 1 (counting from that 180 million taking into account the 27 bucks Konami gets from retail + more from digital). It'll has continued and will continue to sell obviously, but I don't think there's any indication that it's some massive money maker for them (at least compared to the size of the investment).
If you have sources though, feel free to correct me. Just don't use only shipped numbers or revenue made without taking into account Konami's share of it.
Coulomb_Barrier
Member
Yeah no. FF7 is a completely different case. KojiPro is a new, unproven studio. The game is question is not a proven franchise. In fact, the game that they've signed console exclusivity for doesn't even exist yet I'd imagine aside from a proof of concept. So I don't think this deal is Sony paying out the nose to lock exclusivity for something that doesn't exist. It's a partnership. I'd imagine Sony will help with some dev costs and marketing in 2017/18 when the game launches.
MatrixMan.EXE
Member
Wait, so that's how Nikkei found out? A Konami mole?
Chaos2Frozen
Member
It wasn't in Hideo Kojima's mind on the online portion and micro transaction. Online portion is likely konami.
Yeah, but there is also the unprecedented paid demo and microtransactions. But I think there are better ways to handle going over budget then firing someone. I doubt that's the reason.
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